Aditya Birla Fashion and Retail Limited (ABFRL) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Quarter 3 FY '20 Earnings Conference Call of Aditya Birla Fashion and Retail Limited. The call will begin with a brief discussion by the company's management on the quarter's performance, followed by a question-and-answer session. We have with us today, Mr. Ashish Dikshit, Managing Director; Mr. Jagadish Bajaj, CFO; Mr. Vishak Kumar, CEO, Lifestyle Business; and Ms. Sangeeta Pendurkar, CEO, Pantaloons. I want to thank the management team on behalf of all the participants for taking valuable time to be with us. I must remind you that the discussion on today's earnings call may include certain forward-looking statements and must be viewed, therefore, in conjunction with the risks that the company faces. Please restrict your questions to the quarter's performance and the strategic questions only. Housekeeping questions can be dealt with separately by the IR team. With this, I hand the conference over to Mr. Jagadish Bajaj. Thank you. And over to you, sir.

Good afternoon, and welcome to the earnings call of our company. I am pleased to report that this quarter has been one of the finest quarters in terms of all-around performance for the company. Your company has posted a very good set of numbers despite the general slowdown and tepid consumer sentiment in the economy. The company has grown its revenues by 12% this quarter to INR 2,562 crore. I would like to highlight that this growth is on top of a very strong 23% growth achieved last year in the same quarter or its previous year. EBITDA margin has increased from 8.2% last year to 8.9% for this quarter, recording the highest-ever quarterly EBITDA of INR 227 crores. The company has also made its maiden century in quarterly PBT by notching up a PBT of INR 111 crores. It would be pertinent to note that this has been achieved by all-around improvement but as LTL across all our business segments have shown stellar growth. During this quarter, we set yet another record by opening the highest number of stores in the quarter ever. We opened 150 stores across our business segments, reinforcing our confidence in the growth potential of our businesses. This quarter, the company has adopted the new lower corporate tax regime, which will help company to save cash flow for next 2 years. Accordingly, the company has to remeasure its deferred tax assets, which has a one-time impact of INR 106 crore in Q3 and INR 130 crore for YTD FY '20. But for this change, the reported PAT would have been INR 73 crore for Q3 and INR 125 crore for YTD FY '20. The company has been able to consistently deliver a strong performance due to its continued drive in product innovation, increasing its store network, building new retail brand identity, increased marketing and advertising efforts, more digitization and customer-centricity. I will now take you through the performance of our individual businesses, starting with Lifestyle Brands business. The lifestyle business has grown its LTL this quarter by a very impressive 15%. The business continues to grow its e-commerce channel strongly, registering a growth of more than 45% during this quarter. The overall revenue for the business grew by 14%, riding on a stellar growth of approximately 30% in retail channel. The lifestyle business continues its business model transformation through a 6- to 12-season cycle by digitizing its product creation and go-to-market operation through the recently launched digital trade show system. This model aims to deliver fresh assortment in line with market trends while simultaneously reducing the design risk for the company and its potential markdown liabilities. The ongoing season, spring/summer '20, is the first full season for this model. And we expect to realize its benefit in the next 12 to 18 months. Coming to the results for this quarter. Lifestyle Brands recorded revenues of INR 1,295 crore, a growth of 14% over Q3 FY '19. The comparable EBITDA for this quarter is at INR 138 crore versus INR 132 crore in Q3 FY '19. The EBITDA margin at 10.7% are temporarily impacted due to pressure in wholesale channel caused by continuous consumer shift to higher-quality retail environment. The business has responded to this structural shift in the market by aggressively expanding its own retail network through its predominantly franchisee-led business model. These measures will not only accelerate the growth trajectory of our Lifestyle Brands and help them realize their complete potential, they will also set foundation for improved profitability as this network matures with time. The Pantaloons business during the quarter reported revenues of INR 1,083 crore, registering a growth of 13% over Q3 FY '19. You will recall that the same quarter last year had both the festive season and the end-of-season sales, too, during which the business has recorded a growth of 28%. The LTL growth for the quarter is 4.9%, which again should be seen in light of 17% LTL recorded in the same quarter last year. Pantaloons has achieved its maiden quarterly EBITDA century and closed highest-ever margin of 10% during this quarter, the EBITDA at INR 109 crore versus INR 88 crore in Q3 FY '19, which is a growth of 24% without taking in the adjustments. This quarter's performance further reinforces the consistent and all-round improvement in the quality of our business over the last 3 years. The key strategic levers of this transformation are improved design aesthetics and product quality, refreshed brand imagery through enhanced marketing investment and superior retail experience. These consumer-affecting shifts are backed by building shorter and faster product creation cycle, smart planning system and an agile supply chain. Next, we move to the Fast Fashion business. The transition of the People brand into Pantaloons store brand is currently underway. The initial response has been very encouraging, and we expect to complete the migration by end of this year. In Forever 21 business, our consistent focus on rightsizing the operations and improving its intrinsic profitability is yielding results. We have started work on local sourcing for the brand, the benefit of which we will start to accrue in the coming year. The Fast Fashion business has reduced its EBITDA losses for the quarter from INR 12 crore to INR 4 crore. At YTD level also, the business has halved its losses from INR 27 crore to INR 13 crore. Moving on to our Other Businesses portfolio, which includes Innerwear and Global Brands. Innerwear business continues to scale up rapidly and has reached 20,000 outlets at the end of Q3 FY '20. The revenues of this segment will continue to grow aggressively as we build a strong proposition across men's and women's innerwear, athleisure, active and loungewear segments. Van Heusen innerwear is now a well-established player in the market. And we will continue to capitalize on the growth momentum that we have created in last 2 years. The rapidly increasing scale is beginning to improve our product margins, although the business will require further scale-up to achieve profitability. Global brands. In the Global Brands business, it continues to do well, both in collective and our mono brand business. Revenues from Other Businesses in total witnessed 39% growth over the same quarter last year from INR 106 crore to INR 148 crore. Lastly, let me briefly update you on the status of our newly invested Ethnic wear business. As we had indicated that we plan to transition Jaypore from a pure online player to an online plus offline player, we plan to add few more stores in Q1 FY '21 and will expand the network by opening 8 to 10 stores later in the year. The brand Shantanu & Nikhil continues its strong couture business. The business plans to open its first drape store in Q4 FY '20 and will expand the network by opening 5 to 6 stores in FY '21. The debt -- net debt of the company as of 31st December 2019, is INR 2,243 crores. This is INR 71 crore more than Q2 FY '20, primarily on account of INR 66 crore funding to ESOP trust to buy company shares. Summing up, this quarter's commendable financial performance and its tough market conditions reflect company's strong competitive position in the Indian apparel market and validates our strategy of a broad display across key market segments with focus on a strong brand, wide distribution and our ability to drive continuous improvement by constantly refining our business model to deliver a consistent long-term performance. Thank you. And we are now open to the questions.

[Operator Instructions] We have the first question from the line of Abneesh Roy from Edelweiss.

My first question is on Innerwear. The last 2 quarters, the Y-o-Y growth was 67%. It seems there is some slower growth this quarter. So if you could discuss what was the reason. And how is the market leader in terms of, say, support to the trade channels in terms of working capital, et cetera? And are you also being forced to respond to that? So could the profitability come under some risk? There has been a INR 21 crore loss run rate in this segment. So could that loss increase because of all this?

So Abneesh, as we continue to drive for growth, which is on, of course, a much smaller base because we are a relatively new player, our business performance continues to remain strong. As far as policies are concerned and pressures from channel and liquidity, look, we have been in this industry for 25 years across a whole portfolio of brand segments. We understand how wholesale works. And we don't shift our policies due to any short-term pressures. The -- on the profitability in this segment, what you see in the other business is, I'm sure you are aware of, is a combination of all our businesses put together, which is international brands, the collective, the super premium brands, innerwear and a few other small businesses that we have. So innerwear is part of it. I don't see any dramatic impact on its profitability versus last quarter.

And growth. Last quarter, you had given the growth 67% in Innerwear. What's the growth this time?

Yes. So growth remains strong. The reason we have not given specifically the growth because it's still a very small part of the business. And I think there's just too much focus on that just one number. We will probably give at the end of the year the consolidated number for this.

But fair to assume below 50% in terms of growth?

I said we will give you a number, consolidated number end of the year.

Sure. And my second question is on Ethnic. So you have given the numbers for Jaypore and Shantanu, INR 31 crore revenue and loss of INR 10 crore. So what is the plan in terms of scaling up? Are you benchmarking against Manyavar, which is the gold standard here? So would you expect to catch up in terms of the product portfolio and eventually long term even in terms of retail expansion, et cetera?

Well, not really. I think these brands are positioned very differently. Their sort of price positioning strategy is very different. And therefore, they have their own path. As Jagadish mentioned that our immediate short-term objective is to open between 6 to 10 stores in each of these brands over next 8, 10 months, and we will see how that business grows from there. Both these brands are far more premium and have a very different product portfolio.

And sir, last comment on e-commerce. That has always been the fastest-growing channel for you. In terms of share of business, it was high single digits. So in terms of growth, if you could discuss, is there any slower growth in e-commerce? We are seeing a very similar kind of pricing now being across both physical and e-commerce. So is that impacting the growth rate here?

I don't think so. I think we may not have specifically called out the number. But our growth rate continues to remain high, highest clearly. But even -- I think it will be in excess of 40%.

We have the next question from the line of Aditya Soman from Goldman Sachs.

So first question, so there's a clear discrepancy in the growth between retail and wholesale. And this has been something that we've seen for the past couple of quarters. So any sort of call on when you expect wholesale growth to sort of return? And what is the -- is there a shift in channel in terms of why you're selling more directly through your own channel rather than wholesale? Is there any shift like that, that is structured?

Yes. I think, Aditya, you've observed correctly. There is an impact for the entire industry, the small MBO business has been under a lot of stress. There is pressure on liquidity in that channel. So that is clearly one dimension. And we are dealing with it by -- to the extent that we have many partners with whom we work, so we're supporting that channel as much as we can to help them to grow. Separately, we are also accelerating our own EBO growth, which is, as you would have noticed, grown significantly. We've put up a huge number of stores. In fact, in this quarter alone, we would have put about 130 stores. So that continues very strongly. What we've also done is to support the MBO channel. As like Jagadish was saying a little earlier, we've moved to a 12-season model, which allows for our trade partners to consume inventory as they sell. So it allows them to right-stock their inventory and just get the right kind of inventory much closer to market. That has a short-term impact on primary sales for us. But it's the right thing to do to help the market to grow. Finally, to answer your question on how soon do we see this channel growing, we don't know yet. And it is also not just one homogenous set of retailers. There are very different kinds of retailers with their own challenges. All I could say is we are doing a lot of things to help them to grow, 12-season is one of them, a lot of local merchandising and things like that to help this channel grow. But it is under some stress at this point of time.

Understand, very clear. I think just following up on that, to what extent do you think in this quarter or in the 9 months was the impact of basically a scale-down in inventory in the channel? Or any way you can break that out or an impact just of sort of lower sales outcome?

Yes. So it has affected sales. The thing is that our secondary sales in the market continue to be strong, okay? We are clear market leaders there. So it's the primaries where the retailers tighten their stocks because we have given them the option to do so.

Fair enough. And any number you wouldn't want to share on secondary sales?

I don't know. But it is not as good as our retail. Clearly, the consumer preference for exclusive stores has been stronger, okay? So that's reflected in their numbers.

So Aditya, there are 2 factors, which Vishak is talking about. One is the structural shift as consumers move to more better form of retailing. And only some of the retailers, multi-brand retailers, trade customers are able to upgrade themselves and therefore, there is a shift away. The second is the liquidity issue, which affects any channel partner. And that probably is more temporary whereas the first one is relatively more structural.

No, that's very clear. And it's good to note, I mean, obviously that shift towards your own sort of stores is positive. And secondly, on Pantaloons, I mean the store has this -- for the first 9 months has been a little below of sort of guidance for the full year. What will be the guidance for the full year at this point?

Yes. So on expansion, I think as we have strengthened our model, we've -- of course, first, on versus what we had indicated for the full year, we have said 50 to 60 stores. We are on track. We should be close to about 55 to 60 stores for the full year. So we stay on plan on that. And as we are now more confident of some of the foundational shifts that we've made in our business, we are -- and then we will wait to see how we accelerate this agenda going forward.

We have the next question from the line of Tejash Shah from Spark Capital. Mr. Shah, I'm sorry to interrupt, but we cannot hear you.

Congrats on good set of numbers to the team. First question is for Vishak. So Vishak, you mentioned that your expansion is the way forward. And even if I see the 9-month run rate, 160 stores for 9 months. So is this a strategic shift led by the value migration happening in that direction? Or are we seeing some other trends also for this direction?

So clearly, answer is yes. There is a strategic shift here to move to a stronger retail model. And this is across account types, okay, big cities as well as through small towns. So that's clearly there. What we've also been able to do is to unleash the power of entrepreneurship through a lot of partner franchise stores. So Madura, as you know, has always had very strong partners in the market, okay? So we've been able to strengthen that further, allow a lot of people who are either doing multi-brands or some other businesses to be able to put up stores for us in many towns. And they've been able to do that very successfully. And as word of mouth keeps getting stronger on the success of these stores, it becomes even easier to put up more stores. So clearly, the growth lever of adding more stores, penetrating deeper into catchments and markets is there. And there is a lot of opportunity there as we go along. In each of our brands, we've been able to create a viable retail business model, which allows stores to be profitable for partner and for us. So that's there as a directional trend, Tejash.

So we're converting our distributors to MBPs, is that part of the strategy or that's exclusive to this one?

Not sure what context that is, Tejash. I would like to understand that better separately. I don't know.

Sure, sir. No worries, I'll take it offline. Second is when we see the working capital efficiency of EBOs versus wholesale, is it the same? Or because wholesale you have much more bargaining power and because you're dealing with smaller people. And over here, I think one may have 5 shops or 6 shops, franchisee stores. So is the bargaining power in terms of working capital efficiency enough here?

Okay. Tejash, first of all, look, there is a difference of consignment stocks versus buy-and-sell stocks and so on. But eventually, it's success with consumer, okay? If you have an assortment, you will succeed with consumer, if you have merchandise rotation, which creates freshness for consumer, any business model can be made to work. The advantage we've got with our current model is it's an intelligent model. So the quality of assortment that we put together goes through a lot of data analytics, okay? We've got tools which allow us to fine-tune store configurations for each store and then replenish every day based on what sold the previous day. So some of these things are superior models, which help us to make the retail more viable.

And any reason for the margin contraction in Lifestyle Brands this quarter, Y-o-Y basis?

Like Jagadish explained, it's primarily the shift, the wholesale trade is, all said and done, a very profitable model for us, okay? So there is a dip in that channel, which is what is -- actually, it's the singular reason for the small dip.

Sure. And lastly, on Pantaloons margin, so congrats on double-digit margins for the first time. But the usual drivers of private label are SSG being higher. But they are not that there actually to suggest such a sharp expansion more. So what are the factors which are actually contributing to this nonlinearity here?

Tejash, let me first -- I'll get Sangeeta to respond to you. But let me just start by telling you that for 5 -- last 4 years, our margins have moved from 4% to now 7%, 7.5%. We literally tripled our profitability. And it's happened without a dramatic shift in private label in terms of share nor a dramatically high same-store growth. And we have discussed those reasons in earlier calls. So you shouldn't be surprised, therefore, an even better performance without dramatic shift on those 2 drivers. But I will get Sangeeta to answer what is driving that improvement in profitability.

Yes. So I think, first, our endeavor has been to drive our same-store growth. And our same-store growth, as you've seen, again, nice of you to look at it, is one of the highest that we've ever seen in the recent few years. And some of the key drivers of this as we have discussed on several calls before is our focus -- consistent focus on understanding our shoppers and making our merchandise a lot more relevant to them more from a value equation standpoint, improvement in product [ execution ] and design language, making sure that our planning model significantly improves. We have now actually rolled out a platform for planning, which allows us to allocate our stocks better at a store level. The investments that we've made in the brand. So on the private label agenda, yes, we've probably been a little slow. And this quarter, you specifically see a shift because again because of festive, where we do see a preference of shoppers moving more in favor of the non-private label. But on an annual basis, we are pretty much holding our numbers versus last year. And now that we've got our basic model right, we hope to then deliver a better performance with a shift in our private label portfolio going forward.

We have the next question from the line of Vaishnavi Mandhaniya from Anand Rathi.

So this is my question. on the Madura Lifestyle Brand, right, so if we see like total sales mix -- the channel-wide sales mix, which for this whole year, if we look at the 9-month average, right, it actually moved more towards retail versus wholesale, which the reasons that we've stated before, in terms of liquidity and all. So basically, what impact can this have going forward on the margins and on the working capital front and basically in Pantaloons? That's the first question. Second question on Pantaloons, what can we expect to be the trajectory in the margin expansion going forward?

Okay. Vaishnavi, I think it's a good question of, a, is there a shift in weightage towards retail? The answer is yes. But our retail model is a sound, profitable retail model. So as we scale up retail further, we should be all right on margins, even when the weightages are much higher for retail. B, the trade channel is a very important channel for us. We'll continue to do all that we can to support that channel and strengthen that. So that will also continue, all right? So yes, there is the one-time, perhaps, correction of inventory that people are going through with our 12-season model, which helps actually to make that channel more robust. There is a lot of liquidity pressure in that channel, which hopefully over the next few months should ease. And as that happens, we should look forward to being able to squeeze that better as well.

One-time inventory correction, what happened in this quarter that didn't happen?

Look, correction is -- I don't know if that's the right word. But basically, retailers are learning to buy tighter, okay? And once they corrected that base, after that, it's -- yes, we're just allowing them to become more full-based in whatever they've sold the previous month, they're able to order that for next month.

Okay. And on the Pantaloons?

Yes. On Pantaloons, again, as you've seen that, as Ashish mentioned that over the last few quarters, 8 quarters and over the last 2, 3 years, we've consistently improved our margin. Our endeavor will be to continue on that trajectory of improvement. At this point of time, we'd not like to put a number. But directionally, our efforts will be to continue to improve on the base that we have created.

We have the next question from the line of Amit Purohit from CGS CIMB.

Congratulations, sirs. Just on this Pantaloon EBITDA margin performance, so while you discussed earlier also with respect to the initiatives that you have taken, which is other than the private label and the SSG. So is it safe to assume that some of the new stores probably, which have been opened over the last 2, 3 years, they have been much more profitable than the earlier stores that is driving and the new stores, which are getting opened, are breaking even faster and that's why this margin is [indiscernible] or it is purely overall cost [ rationalization ]? What should we ascribe it to?

I think if you look at it over a medium period of time, we have 3 drivers which improve a retailers' profitability. One is the gross margin improvement and that comes from both increased share of private label but sometimes, even non-private label, if you're able to improve the sell-throughs, then the rotation improves with that. Markdown management is another lever, which is invisible to external viewers, but it's an important lever because poor inventory management results into more [ resale ] price sell-throughs and into high markdowns. So these 2 are the drivers for gross margins. And in Pantaloons' case, it's the second which has been improving year-on-year that's driving the improvement in gross margin. A lot of it, it shows back into EBITDA. The second thing is the leverage of scale on the fixed cost of operations. As you know, we've been growing this business 14%, 15% year-on-year, both a combination of like-to-like but even through expansion. And that's been driving the fixed cost leverage, so the combination of these 2. On top of it, the like-to-like is obviously also a function of price premium that you're able to generate, the kind of customer traffic which is now beginning to play only this year. Because if you go back a year back and a year before that, the same-store growth numbers were low single digits. It's only now that we are consistently able to deliver a reasonable like-to-like performance. So a combination of a stable same-store improvement, improvement in gross margin, primarily driven by better planning, assortment management and lower markdowns and leverage of fixed costs are the 3 major drivers, which are driving this.

Okay. And just on this initiative that we started in the beginning of the year, which is a shorter and faster rollout of new products, now is that -- will roll out to all the Pantaloons stores? Or is it to select and we are rolling it out across?

No. That is all across and we've gone live with it and significantly improved the freshness in our stores. And that's one of the factors that is contributing to our consistent growth.

Yes. So I mean, redo of new launch is almost in [ often ] in 15 days, in a fortnight, right? Is that the...

Yes. So we have a percentage of freshness going in. So there will be something fresh that comes into the stores every fortnight. And that's how the season -- it flows through the season.

Sure. And I mean just what will be the general industry standard? I know, I mean, you are employing on yourself. But I mean can -- what would be the industry on regular LFS or large detail format stores would be doing this?

I don't think we would comment on individual players. But to give you, first, a sense that this is not a function of player or the format. It's also a function of the kind of location that it is. So if you are operating in South Bombay, you'll operate at very different level of turns or South Delhi or big metros. As you keep going down, the turns reduce, but your profitability improves because your cost leverage is higher, the overall retail expenses are lower. So it's a constant sort of variation. And the variation is very wide between these 2 numbers. So it's a function of how your network is uniquely positioned between high throughput markets, medium throughput markets and the low throughput markets, which actually defines what's the overall terms of the inventory for the system.

We have the next question from the line of Tejash Shah from Spark Capital.

Just one follow-up for Vishak.

Mr. Shah, I'm sorry to interrupt, but we cannot hear you clearly.

Just one follow-up for Vishak. Vishak, when we started this year, honestly, the target of 350 [ stores ] seemed ambitious. But now we see, you could be very well achieving this. I mean, this quarter, you managed more than 1 store per day opening. So in the current environment, when our economy is in so bad shape, how are we able to recruit new franchisee partners? So that's first. And second, is this recruitment of existing brands, some other competitive brands, reviews are coming into our fold? Other than new people to the trade all together?

Okay. So thanks, Tejash, but I can now say I told you so. So we were quite confident of expanding. And the basic reason for that is the unit economics. Once the store model is viable, scaling up, it becomes easier. And especially with partners, what tends to happen is it's a small world. So once you create proof of concept, once you create successful stores in various kinds of city [ pops right up ], then the word spreads fast and people open. It's a mixed bag in terms of composition of we, at Madura, have always tried to strengthen relationships with existing business partners. So many of them have opened stores, have multiple stores there, partners who opened 10, 12 stores this year with us. But there are also new people. Like we've got a college professor who has moved to running a store in Dindigul. We've also got people who are having multi-brands have added 1 more store with us, and some which are shifting from competition brands to us. So that's an assortment of all various kinds. And we have a reasonably robust method of training their teams, getting the standards of franchising and so on, so that the consumer experience is good when we do this.

Sure. And usually, this kind of ramp-up is seen by consolidation in some form because the earlier stores also sees the progress in their P&L for 1 year. So let's say, out of the 350 stores, first 100 stores would have had first Diwali of after 4, 5 months. So how do you respond? Whether you believe that this new unit economics, which you're talking about in this sector, and it's now steered as much as possible?

You see, we've been in this business for more than 2 decades, okay? So it's not like these are the first stores we are opening. So it's just that we have accelerated the pace of expansion. So stores existed last year, year before and many, many years before. I have opened stores in 1995. So it's just the pace of expansion. And what is helping in that is I think there are new markets that we're going into. There are more viable formats that are coming up, and that's what is driving the faster pace of expansion. We've also strengthened the kinds of assortment that we've got, which help us to make retail even more viable. For example, a very, very strong wedding-driven suits line makes retail very, very viable in a lot of markets and so on, depending on the kind of catchment.

Sure. And lastly, what is the initial response to this digital workflow? How is trade picking it up?

Two parts to it. There is a part which is about being digital, okay? And there is a part which is about being more frequent, which is to move to sell 12x a year. So clearly, 12x a year, people really like the idea, okay? It helps them, makes them more close to market, gives them a lot of flexibility to see what is selling. Because most people can get a very strong sense of what will sell next month. Okay? So that clearly has helped them. On moving digital, people are learning to get used to technology. We've also gradually improved the experience with -- there are -- when you go to a basement of -- somebody's office is in a basement, net connectivity is low, those kind of things. We have also fine-tuned our way of booking this, and also on the digital system itself. So my sense is that might take another couple of months to get fully streamlined. But conceptually, the retailer loves it.

We have the next question from the line of Mayur Parkeria from Wealth Managers.

I had a question on innerwear. So just a basic question, innerwear sales, which we report, are they primary sales or are they secondary sales?

Primary sales.

Okay. And can you give some color on how the secondary sales are shaping up in terms of both menswear and innerwear? Will that be much different than the primary numbers?

No. I think when we were initially launching it about 2.5 years back, at that stage, the brand was new, familiarity was less. And therefore, there was more primary than secondary. But in the last 2 years, secondaries have caught up because, as you can understand, retailers only allow those products to survive in their cycle, which have the rotation and customer traction. So now these are well established. The product has found traction. The brand was always considered good in premium. Our significant product differentiation helps us stand out. At the tertiary level, which is the consumer offtake and consumer repeat, that's the cycle that we are now undergoing now that customers have started to buy exclusive for 3, 4, 5 months. And we are beginning to attract that also through different mechanisms. And there also, indicators are pretty good.