Advent Technologies Holdings, Inc. (ADN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. I'm David and welcome to the Mission Hydrogen webinar series. Today, our expert is Morten Sorensen from Advent Technologies, and he will speak about clean power for construction and EV charging a very, very interesting topic, maybe a very good work around. A good compromise between expanding the grid and making it happen and using, let's say, pure hydrogen for everything, which is also a challenge in some locations. So I'm really looking forward to this webinar. Please introduce yourselves. Tell us where you're from. I've seen some very familiar names, some of the usual suspects are here as well. And as always, we have people from all over the world. So good afternoon to Egypt. Good evening to India. A good afternoon to Spain. Good morning to Buenos Aires, to Argentina, I think it should be around noon in Argentina right now. Good evening to Pakistan, Good evening to Malaysia, Good morning to California. Good to see you at I think, 7 a.m. in California. Good to see that you got up that early to join the webinar. Good morning Mark to Phoenix, Arizona. So please introduce yourself, tell us where you're from, what you do for a living, why you're here, what you're interested in, what you're hoping to learn today and as always, please post your questions. We do the Q&A session afterwards. Cool, Sweden, [indiscernible], Estonia, Calgary, France, Germany, Colombia, Missouri, Turkey, very, very good. It's so fantastic to see all of you here. As you know, my daytime job is to build these plans here. So if you need someone to support you on your way, you can either contact me or my team. And if you need equipment, please contact our friends at the MEA Group, the Newmann and Esser, especially when it comes to compressors, electrolyzers, refueling stations and biogas reformers, you see the e-mail address of Jens-Wolf and they -- not Jens personally, but they have been around since 1830. They have an energy -- the background of the energy transition in the 1800s when they built steam engines and now they do the next level of energy transition for you and with you. If you need more knowledge and what we present to you today is not enough for you. Please get the webinar library, it's only EUR 997 per year or EUR 97 per month. So if you choose the monthly plan, its only EUR 97 and I can guarantee you that every wrong decision in your company will be much more expensive. And if you want to work with us, please contact Maya. The team will just post her e-mail address again. So we are happy to support you. Next week, if you haven't registered yet, you will learn everything you need to know about the economics of hydrogen transports with their experienced expert from Hydrogenious. We'll speak about long distance transport liquid hydrogen, ammonia, methanol, LOHC as the different options to transport hydrogen from A to B. They are going to show a case study for different regions and different scenarios. That's for you, if you're interested in long distance hydrogen transport. In 2 weeks, we'll speak about improving hydrogen stack performance, single cell monitoring for electrolyzer stacks, more technical topic, but very, very important for the business case of electrolyzers. And in 3 weeks, we'll have hydrogen safety, best practice webinar with MSA and with Plug Power on hydrogen safety for different applications. Plug Power will, I think, mainly speak about fuel cells, I don't know yet. Maybe we'll speak about electrolyzers and liquefaction as well, I'm not really sure yet what they will present and MSA is as you certainly know, one of the most experienced sensor companies out there. Hydrogen online workshop, hydrogen online conference, please register as always. And let me check who is with us. We have, again, 1,400 registrations, very good. So I see Erin from Chile. Chile, good morning. Erin, good to see you, I see. All right, Arkansas, Austria, India, Denmark. So your fellow Danish presenter will be here in 1 minute. Okay. So let me say thank you to Atlas Copco to port compression to Drager [indiscernible], to Hydrogenious, our next speaker -- next presenter, next week. MSA and FOS, and let me say thank you also to Phoenix Contact and TT Gaskets for enabling us to do this. And I hope you will sell all of your products to our audience, and I'm very, very sure that most of you out there will be happy to buy from them. All right. That being said, let me introduce today's speaker, and welcome Morten Sorensen to our virtual stage. Morten?

Thank you, David.

Hi, good to see you and good to see you're in a factory, in a warehouse with your product in the background just for those who didn't realize that within the first 2 seconds. I'm really looking forward to your presentation, and I'll be back for the Q&A and the stage is yours Morten.

Thank you. Thanks a lot, David. And thank you for taking your time to have a look at what we can offer at Advent Technologies. I'll kick off right away introducing what I'm just click, just give a second here, here you go. So Advent, some of you may have Googled us already or know our company already. I put a number of wonderful pictures here on the right-hand side. But we are a global company. We are listed on the NASDAQ in New York. And for that reason, we have activities in the U.S. We have activities also in Europe and Denmark and Greece and Germany and we have some activities in the Asian Pacific as well. So we are covering the globe, and we are covering everything from material science, material development and true product going into the market, of course, not all markets, but we are available on all levels of scale. So what is it that we do at Advent. The principle is relatively simple. Mainly our activities is related to fuel cells. We have a bit of electrolyzers as well, but the main focus is on high temperature PEM fuel cells. And this is what you see here in the end of the picture. This is one of our Serene products, the product line that I'm and to speak about today involve this unit. And what it takes a feed is either hydrogen. But typically, the unit will be running on methanol, a liquefied energy carriers, as you know. On the right-hand side, you can see the different markets that we enter. We're in the stationary market. We are in the heavy duty automotive market, we're in the marine market and we're in aviation, not into -- fully into the market because there's a lot of customers of ours that are present in the market. But the technologies are in these markets. And they, therefore, various reasons, I would say, if you look into the stationery, the portable systems and if you look into marine, the main advantage of our system is liquefied fuel that we can use methanol as a fuel. It's easy to handle. It have a good energy density. And for that reason, it brings value to those applications. If we look more into the heavy-duty, automotive and aviation, perhaps not the futuristic aviation here, but more classic aviation, you will see that heat reduction is one of the big advantages for our system. I'll not cover those markets as much today. But it is important to state that what we do is we have the core technology in-house. This is what we develop at Advent Technology and we bring it to the market, but typically true market experts. Some people -- some companies that are already present in the different markets and so we have done into stationary, into marine, into aviation and into heavy duty automotive. The product line that we are presenting today is mainly covering the stationary power segment, but also something into the marine segment. And as you can see a list here on the screen, you can see there's a lot of cooperation with a number of the large market companies. So this is one of the way that we learn as a company, with our technology how can we fit it into the different markets and playing the ball forth and back with some of those large companies that know exactly what it takes to be in the market. Some markets are relevant for high temperature PEM. The technology they provide, some are not but in general, what we see is a high request for the technologies that we are working with. So what's the history behind the company. The company was founded in 2006. But what we are to speak about today, the Serene product line had the first generation in 2013. So that was where the first generation where we combined fuel cell conversion from methanol to the hydrogen rich gas, power conversion, et cetera, all into one box, a 5-kilowatt unit box, and that was released in '13 and since then, we have developed it, we have field tested. We have been the customers. We have learned all over the world, all over the globe lessons, and this we have adopted into the product over time. So today, we are at the fourth generation of the product. And this is also -- you can probably see it here in the back, a small guy over here. That is the fourth generation of product that we have. We do also cabinets, as you can see, not because we want to be a cabinet manufacturer, but because this is typically what is needed to have such a unit running, for instance, in telecom industries at one of our big market segments. We see that the typical customer who purchase lower quantities, it could be 10, 20, 50, 100 units. They would like an all-in-one solution. So we provide everything. We make it easy for the customer to receive the new technology and work with it. This includes cabinets. Over time, of course, as volume increases, et cetera, typically the customer localized this part. After all, it is a steel but don't tell the engineers. After all, it is a steel box with a bit fittings and a bit of piping and bit of electronics. But it's something that you can typically manufacture local to the market. And one thing that I'm especially excited about is what you see here in the center of the screen, our new laboratory and production facility in Boston. We've been able to put up 2 large lines in Boston, enabling us to work with our core technology and actually manufactured in relatively high quantities. So it is for the next generation of our product technology. And then most recent, what we are to speak about today, the big guy here in the back, it's not a picture. It's a real thing. The SereneP, this one is a 45 kVA solution, and that is something we launched recently. If we look into what is it that we do at Advent, we can say on the left-hand side, you have a picture of a membrane electrode and the MEA. So membrane electrode assembly. This is our core technology. And this is something that we've had in our product, of course, that's a full time. This is also something that we are developing to increase because this is the fundamental of making better products at the end of the day, the lifetime, the ability, the cost, the performance, a lot of those elements is put into the core material into the MEA. And this, we are developing, and we are developing the next generation of membrane technology, the Ion Pair membrane technology. And this is something we are especially excited about because this really is a disruptive step for a fuel cell, high temperature PEM fuel cell as we have it. Today, we work with PBI based and membrane and some of you will know that some of the expert in this region will know this. And this is where we can double or triple the lifetime, and this is where we can get a power density that is twice what we have today or even higher of the product. This lowers the cost. So this is of the energy produced and it makes more compact system. So this is a definite advantage to our technology. But this we put into a fuel cell stack, we do the bipolar plate and combine it with the performance system, that's what you have in the center of the picture here. This is kind of the core box in our units, reformer, a fuel cell and some heat exchanging. So that's core box. Then you need to have a full working module, some electronics, you need some pumps, some sensors, et cetera, that's what we call electromechanical unit. And then we have the power electronics and control board at test as well. All this together brings a product that we can put into stationary power, as you see or into -- in this case, human portable power or mobile situation here. So of course, if you look at the human portable power system, it's not exactly the component you have on the left side, but the principle -- the working principle is exactly the same. With the new technology with Ion Pair technology, this is one of the key milestones and reaching our long-term goal. The long-term goal is that we can provide green energy with a solution we have at the same cost or even cheaper than the diesel gensets are doing today because our main competitors at the moment are diesel gensets. And we believe while extending the lifetime, by lowering the production cost and especially increasing the power density that the cost is getting lower. And you can see on the graph, we have here already from '23 to '24 things are happening. But over the next coming few years, 2, 3 years, we believe in a good position for actually competing head-to-head with diesel gensets. So what's inside the box here behind me. We call it the SereneP and P is for portable. But what's actually inside box is a number of fuel cell unit. We combined this. This is kind of the units that provide the energy at the end of the day. We combine it with the battery. So it's always a hybrid system we have. The battery is charged from the fuel cells and delivering the energy to the application, whatever that is. Typical, that's done in this guy through an inverter. So you have your normal 230-volt or 400-volt equipment, depending on the region, of course, connected to this one and you can charge your EV, you can charge whatever from the power pack here. And the fuel cell is constantly topping up the energy into the battery, so you always have a fully charged system. It does that from the methanol tank, which is also inside this guy or could even if a large plants be external. So the product lineup you see here is -- the smaller guy here, that's the 45 kVA. That's the one to see in the left-hand side here. That is our first released product. So that is ready to purchase as of today. The center one, you have here, the 90 kVA is building on the exact same principle as a guy here behind me. So the working principle is the same. As you can see, it's extended a bit. It's a bit longer because we need a bit more batteries and we need a bit more fuel so and we need a bit larger inverter inside it to do the 90 kVA. Whereas if you go to the even larger systems, the 150 to 300 kVA system, they are containerized. They are 20-foot containerized systems. As you can see, this one is a rendering, and this is because this is a product in development. So that I don't have a good picture of a real system that is being designed and manufactured at the moment and not -- the first one as the one we see here behind me. So speaking a bit about the core because after all, this is what it's all about, that's what's inside. We have learned a lot from the deployment we have had -- we have learned a lot about how the customer sees this product? How easy is it to integrate? How easy is it to operate? How easy is it to maintain and how easy is it to replace in case of some kind of failure. Because what we realized working mainly in the telecom business is that reliability is a high priority for our customers. It's great that it has good performance, and it looks great and does a job on the first day. But reliability is a key thing. So we have by the experience from the 3 1st generation, really improved our fourth generation product. You will see it has a size. I can -- if I go back here, you can probably not see the details but it has a size that you can actually -- you can carry it. You can lift it. You can put it in and out of the cabinet you have -- so if you go on site, if you have a failure, you can actually go on site, replace it and bring it back to either us or to the service standard in case of some kind of failure and you get run it immediately. On top of that, we also have the remote access to the system and also what the customers have of us. So you're able to do preventive maintenance and see if systems are in a position where we need to go and check if something is to be fixed. Really important for our most telecom customers. So the product, the SereneP here behind me, that is definitely something we see in the construction and mining market. I'll come a bit back to that in a second. We also see the potential for EV charging station. That could be either equipment on site on a construction yard, larger EV cars or non-road vehicles or it could also be as a picture here where we located, perhaps not permanently, but at least temporary in case of some events, in case of some disruptions in the charging grid or whatever. So you can have local power from the fuel cell and then we see a lot of pull from the event sites where we have concerts, you have events, the social events, typically where the customer or the audience of social event, they don't want to be while enjoying life and while enjoying an event also be sacrificing the environment, right? So they have a strong pull for environmental-friendly solutions. I'll come better back to that in a second. So what we're especially proud about in our system is that you can combine a number of batteries inside. You can combine a number of fuel cell and a size of a tank whatever you decide, either by having multiple tanks or by having 1 big tank. But at the end of the day, the fuel cell is what is to cover the average power consumption. So whatever average power consumption, you just stack up a number of fuel cell that matches that. And the run time you want on the system is just how big is a tank. And then we, of course, have the methanol as a future advantages in such a system if it's a portable if you move around often. The weight that's what I mentioned here as the weight EC, the energy carrier weight. It's approximately 80 kilograms per 100-kilowatt hour delivered from our system. So if you compare that with the lower one, which is a battery-only solution, the energy carrier here is, of course, the battery cell itself, and there were more in a 700 kilograms per 100-kilowatt hour delivered. There has other advantages, don't get me wrong, but the energy content wise will be challenged. So the SereneP as a product, what we see from customers, what the feedback we get from customers is that it's really easy for them to move it around. They don't need a lot of permissions to put it. They put it on the ground. They run it like a normal diesel genset, it's silent. And the thing about being able to track it remotely is helpful to them as well as us, of course. They like the idea of having the liquefied fuel. It's easy for them to handle, they already diesel or gasoline for the vehicles. So handling another liquid is not really a big burden for them. That's something they do quite easily. And then, of course, we do not have any NOx or SOx I mean I say no one I say very little, at least and particle matters. And also, of course, the CO2 reduction is there. I'll come a bit back to that in just a second. If we look only at the CO2 emission from our system, then typically we compared with the diesel genset. And of course, diesel genset can run on traditional diesel or HVO diesel, some biodiesel. What we see when running our system on gray methanol and gray methanol is typically methanol from renewable -- not from renewable, sorry, from a natural gas source. So that is a fossil fuel. But even though it's a fossil fuel, we consume so much less fuel compared to a diesel genset that CO2 emission is 40% lower. If we turn into the biomethanol this increases to above 80%. And you can see even the e-methanol could drop us even lower in emission. I think it's all in the discussion I have with customers and partners on a visit. Why is the methanol is such a good idea? Why is it that we believe strongly in methanol and I think that the fact is that the systems that we're discussing here today, they are portable. You relocate and move them around. So having a fuel that is easy to relocate this and easy to refill and handle is a key thing in operations. So here, you can see an example of the methanol. It's a small canister here, 7 liters, 5.5 kilograms of weight compared to a less acid battery. Of course, you could compare it to lithium-ion batteries as well. You could compare it to solid state batteries as well, which will definitely lower the kilograms here from the 230 or you can compare them to hydrogen. No doubt that the batteries have its advantages, no doubt that the hydrogen has its advantages. But some of those technologies are challenged when you need a lot of energy over a long period of time, and you need it to be moved around. As you can see here, this is typically how we handle methanol. Normally, it's not in small canister, normally is in -- not in bulk, but in packages around 1,000 liters that we ship around. That fits our system quite well. We get -- we can also deliver in large tank like isotank size, so that means a full truckload. And as you can see in the upper right corner, this is some of the production locations of methanol, and this is increasing and we see -- I think this is a topic of its own, so I don't want to bother you with all the details today. But we see increasingly plants being built and established for green methanol, e-methanol or even biomethanol has come up. So the demand is increasing, yes, but the supply chain is also increasing their capacity. If we look a bit into the use cases, we have been at this event this summer, last summer. Green concert is a concert here in Denmark actually. It's one of the largest in the northern part of Europe. And the reason why it's a large concert is because it has multiple cities where do concerts. So in 8 cities over the summer, do those concerts, every second day relocating to a new position in new city and then put everything up again and operate, et cetera. So they ask, Advent, do you have anything to lower our emissions and to go green, et cetera. Our audience is asking for it. And so we did actually a small demonstration with them to see how would the audience see this, how would the operation be? How would the crew working with it? How will they handle this? And the feedback we got was really, really good. They had no issues working with the system. It worked well. It was much, much lower noise than what they're used to. And also, they typically have something stroke when they finished up after the event. Some -- they were not aware that it was related to the gensets that they already had, but that was feeling they had and they did have that SereneP systems around it. So it was clear that the guys working in this bar, they said, next year, we want to be there again. And we want the system once again. So that was also a pull actually for the guys who volunteers at this particular event. If we look into not only how the feel of the product is at more like what to say the core numbers, you can say at this event, we replaced a 60 kVA diesel genset. And our product was only able to deliver 45 kVA. They turn out to be not a problem at all. It turned out that the battery size and the fuel cell combined quite well. Actually, the load consumption was much lower than they expected. And when we compare it with the diesel genset, we actually saw that the efficiency of the diesel genset was extremely low. It was as low as 11% because the diesel genset was mainly idling. And that caused a huge fuel consumption compared to the ideal situation. So in this particular case, we reduced the CO2 emission with 93%, so quite a lot. If we look a bit at the numbers, now we just replaced 1 genset. The ambition is that they would like to replace 5 genset this year and perhaps 15, 2 years from now. Then you can see for each number you replace of the generators, you reduce the CO2 emission with 1 ton and you say, well, that's not a lot. Nobody is only a few days, this is running, right? So this event is only 8 days after all, right? So it really adds up, and it's a huge savings. Here, you can see a bit of the details from this particular case. You can see that in the upper left corner, you have a small timetable. You can say, each column is hour of the day, so it goes from 0 to 23 here. And you can see that at 10:00 approximately, they start using this equipment and they run it for the rest of the day. But already at 7, they start charging some small batteries. So in the old days, they typically just turn on the diesel gensets as soon as they go to the area, they turn it on and leave it there. And that was kind of the working pattern. So you can say over this period of time, we realized that per day, they consumed approximately 61-kilowatt hour of energy, which was only 1/4 of what they actually expected. We also have demonstrated here in [indiscernible] and municipality, the project that was for industry. And here, we operated some equipment, some battery equipment and also some nonroad electrical equipment. Actually, like the one I have here behind me, you can probably not see it by [indiscernible]. You can see a small excavator here to let. And you can see a small dumper, if you turn the other way here -- you see we have a small dumper here. So those electrical vehicles were charged by the SereneP product. And the reason why it has to be charged not from the grid but from a SereneP solution is that it was on road construction. So it relocated constantly. And for that reason, we needed to relocate the charging position. This is something that is also really interesting for electrical machinery that you need the charge station to be very, very close to exactly where you do the job. Otherwise, you will spend too much time moving forth and back with the equipment. Here you see the scenario. In this particular case, they charge really every 2 times a day. They charge during the lunch break and they charge when they left the working -- the work. And so there, they actually have a very high power need 21-kilowatt in this case. The rest of the day, it was really flat. Some of the days they used a bit power tools during the day, some of the day, not. If you move on, and I think this is a quite interesting example. I think I want to deep dive a bit more into this one. This is a multipurpose usage at a construction yard. So here, the unit was operated in a much different pattern than just 2 charges per day. As you can see in the left corner, again, we have the columns, the day, time of the day. And you can see the gray that's actually the mobile offices. Here in Denmark, unfortunately is a bit cold often, so we need some heat in the southern part of you or the location, you may want some air conditioning during night and daytime. So they work all day, you have power on the mobile offices. In the daytime, you also have some definite power equipment. It can be a rammer. It can be forced action mixers or whatever you have to have your work done at the construction and in this particular case, they also have an excavator, 2 tons excavator for doing some of the earth digging and so on. So if you look at the table just below the diagram, you can see there's a number of columns. There's a diesel genset, there's a battery system, a hydrogen system and methanol system. If you dig into that, you can see the diesel system, that is what they normally would apply. But in this case, it didn't make a lot of sense because it was electrified working construction yard. So charging with diesel genset didn't really make sense. We have learned that the efficiency here of the system would be around 0.65 liters of fuel consumption per kilowatt hour produced, I'm pretty sure some of you guys know diesel genset quite well and they say, "Aah, that sounds like really a high consumption." But the reality is that some of those diesel genset really idling a lot of time. They really run at very, very low workloads. And this causes the fuel consumption to increase quite a lot. And often, the customer of ours do not even realize that until they see a measure exactly what is the outcome of the diesel genset. Here, you're going to say, if you have a diesel tank of 200 liter, you will have something like 462-kilowatt hours available for delivering to the application. If we run an example shown here on the graph, that means you will have 6 days of working before you need to refuel it. That's acceptable. The energy cost will be around EUR 1.53 per kilowatt hour, which is probably higher than most would expect, but that's typically the case actually. If we compare with the battery system, here in this example, we took a battery systems of 77 kilowatt-hour nominal energy. We assume that there are some energy losses due to inverter losses, due to discharging the batteries, et cetera. And sometimes you even need to heat the batteries a bit doing in night time to have them in a good position for actually delivering the energy. If the battery has this size, you will need to charge this every day. Of course, you could have a battery of twice a size or 3x or 4x a size, but then it gets really big, massive and moving it around will require quite a lot from the truck that delivers it, can be done, sure. And it will affect, of course, the price. And this example, I think we put in the cost of EUR 90 to actually pick up the unit, put it to the charging station remotely and bring it back again. This varies from country to country, from region to region from location to location. So you can calculate your own number here of course. But one thing that was quite interesting is that we also did the calculation at actual demonstration with the hydrogen-based system. So we have a plant here in Denmark that consumes 1.3 metric ton of hydrogen per year. It's not a lot. It's more than nothing. And the supplyment is done by hydrogen bundles. So that means all the cylinders, hydrogen cylinders 2 on the bar pressure, off a go. And what surprised us quite a lot was that it was quite costly. There was a huge difference from the bottle price of hydrogen to actually the hydrogen supplied in the bottles. And you said the bottle price, what's EUR 5 per kilogram, something like that probably. And what we saw on our side with this quantity was EUR 45 per kilogram. It includes, of course, delivery ADR documentation, which we need here in Europe, it required also -- includes also test of the bundles when they returned MTM, refilling all that stuff, rental of the bundle, everything was, of course, included. But they gave the overall energy cost for such a system buildup in this example, of EUR 3.87 per kilowatt hour, so quite an extensive cost. If we apply one of the methanol systems. In this example, we put 1,000 liters here. And we have an efficiency of the system around 40%. That's typically what we see. We have quite a lot of energy available because of the large tank size. Of course, you could also have a diesel tanks out of this size. Don't get me wrong there. You can charge it, refill it every third week, almost 14 days -- working days. And the energy cost will be around EUR 2 per kilowatt hour delivered. And this is a combination, of course, of how much fuel do we use, how much depreciation do we have on the system, how much is the service cost altogether, so a full cost is around EUR 2 per kilowatt. This is something that should be calculated in each of the case. So I'm pretty sure some of you out there have some ideas where we could use such as systems. And then we can calculate this particular location, how would that look to you. Then I have here a slide on our larger systems because 45 kVA is suitable in many locations. But if we are looking at an excavator, like the one you have here at the Volvo and by the way, we really love some of the Volvo equipment. They really pioneered here. So they have this excavator here. They have also a wheel loader, they have -- I know they're working on a dumper, et cetera, but they require quite a lot of power actually to operate. And here is an example of earthmoving work. So that is what you call high intent work for excavator. It's basically digging, moving either to another position or to a truck and does that all day. For certain excavator with that load, you can see at the top figure. Here again, all the columns are time of day. So you can see the left-hand side column is at 6:00. So what is the state of charge of the battery in that particular equipment in the morning, 6:00. It's 100% because it charged during night. As some work day is going on, 6:00, 7:00, 8:00, 9:00, of course the state of charge drops, the battery get trained, that's normal. And here, in this case, quite fast because it's really high intense work. Then in the morning break, 9:00, you will have to recharge it. In this particular example, you have to recharge with 150-kilowatt for 40 minutes. Then you on again, do the work, continue another 3 hours and then you recharge again in the lunch break. Here, you have to recharge a bit longer. Otherwise, you will end without no battery at the end of the working day. You recharge 60 minutes in this case. This will be -- this -- our solution, 150-kilowatt solution will be able to do and it will be using energy from the fuel cell, hence methanol energy. If you look at the table just below -- not the table, figure just below, you can see the same pattern. But in this case, it's not the 150-kilowatt solution here, it's a 300-kilowatt solution. And you can see the charge time is then lowered in the morning break and at the lunch break. So you need less charging to have a full working day. Of course, you can also combine this and say, what happens if I have a 300-kilowatt solution and then have 2 excavators or 1 wheel loader and 1 excavator, et cetera. And then you probably would go with the bigger solution, the 300 kVA solution. So that was just an example on the larger systems and how we see them working in -- with the larger nonroad equipment. Coming a bit back to this guy, I have here behind me. This is the first released product. So this is where we can take order already as of today and deliver very recent time frame. You can see some of the spec here. You can see in the left-hand side, it's a 45 kVA solution. It has a battery insight of 58-kilowatt hours, and it has a fuel cell, you can decide yourself is it 5, 10 or 15. It's simply a matter of how many units do a plug into the system and has a noise level of 55-db. This is quite suitable for everything, I would say, up to 60 kVA solution. There will be some applications where a really heavy-duty work for the generator where you probably will be limited by this unit. But what we see working with the construction yards within entrepreneurs is that the average power load is significantly lower than the peak. And they always dimension after the peak because otherwise, the genset, of course, will stop. So this gives us a look see it does it fit really in what I'm doing because I think it will be suitable for quite a lot of application already today. Yes, and that's what I have, David, on the presentation for now. I don't know, David, is it possible to go in a bigger screen because then I would like to show with what we have here.

Yes, of course. So first of all, thank you, Morten. And now I think we're in a bigger screen, we still have I think this layout were the 4 screens, but I think it's pretty okay. I think you could...

Yes. Yes, it's fine, it's fine. it's just that what is important for me is also to show some of the sizing because one thing is to see it on the PowerPoint presentation. Another thing is to see it in real life, how it looks and how big it is, et cetera, et cetera. So you can see the 45 kVA solution here. We have all the power outlets here needed. This can be configured. We know that from the construction yards that this really highly depend on the entrepreneur using the equipment. So this can, of course, be customized, but this is our standard unit with a standard outlet. You can program and see the status of the system up here in the display and you can actually fill it up here. You cannot see it here, but here on the back side here, there's a hustle where basically just fill up with the liquid methanol. And the unit here, you can see it here. It's heavy. It's not that heavy. So you can lift it, 70 kilograms in total, you need 2 guys and a better lifting gear, if you want to put it inside, but you can put it into a truck, and you can relocate it. It has fillers in the front. You can see it has connections for methanol inlet and has the voltage -- high voltage input output. And the equipment we have here, that's actually something that we have used also here in [indiscernible] this is what we typically see. This is a CB excavator, small excavator. So it fits well with the 45 and we have here on the left-hand side here, the small wheel loader -- wheel dumper, sorry that also can -- and this exactly these 2 machines, whether one that we demonstrated full working time operation with 45 kVA solution here from our side. And then in the center here, we have our standard telecom product, typically Cabinet, 2 units. In this case, you can get it also with 3 unit. It has a tank underneath here, so you can just fill it 200, 300 liters and has some communication, 4G or 5G communications, so you can actually access it remotely, more or less a plug and play. And the easiest thing is that if you want to replace it, if you want to do service, et cetera, you don't need people to be fuel cell expert to get this done. You unplug it. Everything is quick connector here in the front. You pull it out, put it to a truck delivered back to the hub and you do the service and maintenance and you just plug a new one meanwhile. So that's kind of the idea behind the model. Yes, Thank you, David.

Cool. That was -- that's exciting, and I really like the approach of showing the products in the real products instead of just the slides. But since I only have slides to say thank you to sponsors again. Let me just share this slide and especially -- where is it. This one here from our best friends, our very good friends at Newmann and Esser. Just to say thank you to those guys. And right. So first of all, let's give Morten a virtual round of applause in the chat. Please Well, write to comment, if you liked it, or use one of these emojis, I'm going to start a rocket for you, Morten. Here we go. So I really liked and found it very interesting. And I see present our comments, very good and interesting presentations, congratulations to Advent and there is 1 comment like the webinar is good and has covered almost all aspects. It looks workable -- like a workable solution for my country, India. So is it possible to use it in India as well? What do you think?

It is, absolutely. Yes, it is. You say one of the typical challenges we have in India when delivering systems is, of course, on the cost side. This is something I think we can deliver quite a good cost. You saw also the numbers here. So I think this is feasible, and we can do that, yes. We also see in India, typically, it's very humid, it's very, very warm temperatures. And this is absolutely one of the advantages for our technology. The high temperature PEM is easy to cool. The system inside is 180 degrees. So it's easier to cool compared to some of our competing technologies. So I'd say most region in India, sorry, would not be a problem. And I will also see it elevated we sometimes see that for sometimes military application in India that they work at elevated positions. And here, we are less sensitive than also some of our competing technologies. So that's also an advantage that could be considered.

All right, cool. And well speaking about applications and different countries. What does it costs?

The unit we have here fully configured everything is around EUR 135,000.

EUR 135,000. So I don't know what that is in rupees, but I would assume that our Indian friends can convert that. But compared -- it's still pretty expensive compared to a diesel generator. I have no feeling what it is to generate for costs, but I would say it's much more expensive.

Yes, if you ask our Indian colleague there, he will probably say something about USD 8,000, USD 9,000, perhaps even lower. If you want a bit more high-end system, then we're probably half a time higher, probably more like 15% or something. That's what we see in telecom. But if you calculate on the efficiency, and that's really -- it's on the operating cost, that's different. You see that the efficiencies are much lower than you actually expect and also, the service part is much higher than what you'll see in the system like that. Typically, for the low-end diesel genset, you need to go to at least for 500 hours, some even 250, some claim they can do a 1000 but typically, we see 500 hours of service life. And then you have to go check everything is okay, change oil, change filters, et cetera, and so on. So this impact quite much price as well.

Okay. And you have 0 maintenance cost and the fuel is included for the first 10 years.

No, no, we have a maintenance interval of 2,500 hours. So it's more than 500.

Yes. Okay. I'm just laughing because I was sick 2 weeks ago, so I watched some YouTube videos. And they found a video of a guy who did a prank and they converted to Tesla Model S to gasoline. So I think it was a V6 engine that they put into the Tesla and then they went to workshops to get an oil change and these guys were like, again, that car doesn't need an oil change, and they had all these discussions. I really found that entertaining and funny. And of course, the expressions on the face were hilarious when they opened the car and showed the engine. Anyway, so you don't need maintenance and the fuel.

I think the most important is that you calculate the total cost of the energy that we deliver, right? And that's what everyone has to keep in mind. What is the cost of the energy that I get produced, right? and it's clear that a fuel cell like what we have here behind me, is much more CapEx sensitive than a solution. So you will get a cheaper gens, that for sure, if you just want the cheapest CapEx as possible. But the overall cost will increase, right? So this is kind of the compromise. And this is also something that we see a lot in the market is that, of course, we are CapEx sensitive.

Of course, of course. But what would you say, is it easy to get methanol? Or where do you get it from? Let's say, you buy one. I don't know, you're somewhere in India or in Chile or in, I don't know, U.S. Midwest. Is it something you can purchase easily?

Yes, exactly. Many -- you used to handle diesel, which is just around the corner. So of course, methanol is just not just around the corner, but it's a commodity. It's something that's available worldwide. It's used in all industry all over the world. So it's available worldwide. It's at the harbors at all locations in the world. Typically, what we do is that we ship out to our customers directly from Rotterdam for the first trials. So we can get easy access to that for getting runny within a few weeks, right? And then as your volume increases, which you have a rollout, then you will source it locally. But it comes in shiploads, so it's bulk quantities at all large harbors in -- all over the world. So this is really easy accessible. But to those who are used to handle diesel, is a different way of sourcing, right? So it's not a matter of the availability. It's a matter of how can you source it. And I will say this is obviously one of hurdles that we see, is that this is why we have to assist as much as we can to ensure that the customer actually get the methanol. And I think we have a good history of doing that. And normally, it's always shipping out from a known bases, a known facility, which is typically Rotterdam, and we get that. Yes.

All right. Okay. For Europe and for other parts of the world, it would be the similar or the equivalent. Okay. And give me a feeling. I mean you said the tank is 200 to 300 liters. I would assume that if you're there with filling in 200 small bottles, it's going to be a full day of work. Or is it -- does the truck show up and you get a fill from the truck?

Yes, it's by truck. It's by truck, and this is one of the advantages of the liquid carrier, again, because now you can actually just have a long hose, and you can actually fill it up just with a simple centrifugal pump. You can move it from the tank on the truck and to where you need. Let's say this guy may not be located where you can get to, I mean, the truck very easily, right? So this may be located inside the construction. So how do you refill it? Do you buy canister? No, it'll take quite some time, right? So this is where I have the hose, 5, 10 meters hose, and then you would just fill it up. We see this also on mountain top, not on the SereneP but on the telecom-based system, that trucking up hydrogen, hydrogen bottle, you need to carry them. You cannot, in a pipe, get it up a mountain, right? So here, we have the advantage that we can, to some extent, pump it to a higher ground.

Okay. Got it. Got it. So before we go on with the next questions, we had some comments like can we get the presentation and so on and so forth. Guys get the freaking webinar library that you see here. It's EUR 97 per month, so it's almost free, and you get access to all the webinars to everything, and you can compare it to the competitors of Advent you see everything around methanol. We had webinars with the Methanol Institute and with other companies that are dealing with methanol in the past. So if you're interested in the full picture, invest EUR 97 per month and get access to everything. Otherwise, you will make poor decisions along the way and spend millions and millions and millions for useless stuff, so EUR 97. So right, so let's go on with the questions. What is the start-up time? If it's high temperature, I would assume it takes some time when you press the start button before you get the electricity.

It does. And this is a brilliant thing about the hybrid system because you don't need to wait for the fuel cell to start up to get energy. This is exactly why the size of the battery -- I don't know if you noticed that, but the size of the battery is almost 1.5x the power that is possible to give out of the system. That means you'll be able to operate from the battery for 1 hour, and you still have sufficient energy to start up the fuel cell meanwhile as well. And you have [ very good ] margin. So the fuel cell will start up in 35 to 45 minutes, depending on the temperature.

All right. So -- but the message is if you press the green button, you will have access to electricity immediately from the battery and the fuel cell starts up to -- and refills the battery.

Yes, exactly.

And maybe you said it, but the question was there as well. If I have electricity but maybe not like 45 kilowatt, I don't know, 11 kilowatt or 2 or 3 kilowatts, is it possible to recharge the batteries from the grid as well?

Yes, yes. Of course, we cannot see it from a distance, but one of the ports here is actually a charging port. You can use it charging from the grid. And if you have unstable grid, you, in principle, could put -- block it, charge it from the grid whenever that is available. And if the fail out -- the dropout of the grid is too long, then eventually the fuel cell will start up, taking over. So you can use it as a -- this kind of operation as well. Yes.

Yes, of course. I mean, if you look at most construction sites, there is no demand or definitely not a high demand for electricity during the night, so you can charge up your battery easily from the grid. Okay. And another question that might be like for you, more like, okay, I think I -- I think you said it. But is it a direct methanol fuel cell? Or do you use a reformer?

Yes, it's a reformer-based system. So each of the unit has a reformer built in. So yes, so that's how it works, yes.

Okay. And why didn't you use or why don't you use direct methanol fuel cells?

Say, in many ways, the system design will be simpler if you had the direct methanol because that will be less components, but you'll need much, much more precious metals in order to have -- convert all the energy need. So all the units will have that 5-kilowatt building blocks, so you'll need much more precious metal. Unit will be much bigger, and you will have the challenge of cooling these systems in many regions of the world as well. So you see the DMFC, if you're talking about smaller system, 100 watt, 200 watt, 500 watt, something in that range, they could be applicable because of the simplicity of the system, or with larger systems, this will be challenged. And that will mainly be a cost thing at the end of the day.

All right. Okay. And high-temperature PEM versus low temperature PEM, same reasons?

You could say, definitely, the LT-PEM is a more mature product, more mature technology as such. The difference mainly in our system is that when we have the hydrogen-rich gas, unfortunately, it's not only hydrogen. There's also other elements like Co, CO2, of course, that's not a problem, though, a lot of water, et cetera, in the gas stream. And this -- that's one of the advantages of high temperature PEM. Because of the higher operating temperature, it can allow more impurities in the gas that is feeded to the fuel cell. So our reformer is very simple compared to reformer that had to be plugged to a LT-PEM system. There, you need some more gas cleanup in order to make it work. I would say, a simpler system is what you get with the high temperature PEM compared to the LT-PEM.

Okay. But it's lower to start up, but you bridged out with the battery.

Yes, you can say the reformer, you need to heat anyway, right? So of course, the LT-PEM, you'll need less heat on the stack itself, but the reformer has to heat anyway. And what we see in our system is that the balance between when there's a reformer start-up and when there are fuel -- the fuel cell is the slower part though. I would say that. But it's not like it'll be night and day if we didn't have to heat the fuel cell. It will still take a significant time to heat the reformer to full operation. The temperature of the reformer is twice what is in the fuel cell, right? So it has to go to a higher temperature.

Of course. Of course. Are there any safety restrictions when operating such a system in underground construction sites?

Yes. This -- we have -- guy we have here is not intended for underground work. Then you need to handle exhaust from such a system. But you can say, safety concerns in general of such a system is much less than what we see on competing systems. So that's one of the reasons why those green concerts or festivals, et cetera, that they ask for this system, is that they can actually be allowed to put on a ground where you have the social event. This is challenge to have with the hydrogen-based system. So I'll say if you put this underground, you need to handle exhaust. And typically, that has to be done anyway with a combustion engine, right? Then you have a suction pipe or suction hose and venting outside the area, who's -- which is basically sucking out the exhaust. As long as you do that, I don't see a problem in going underground.

Well, the exhaust is CO2 and maybe some hydrogen that is purged or what else?

We don't have a hydrogen in the exhaust, but we have, of course, CO2, of course, from the conversion. And that, of course, can accumulate, so you need to get that right away. Yes.

Yes. Okay. But -- well, the guy who asked the question is actually a customer of ours or was a customer of ours, and he's working for a large railway operation company. So he's speaking about tunnels, about construction -- energy for construction purposes in railway tunnels. So I would assume that he doesn't really worry about the CO2 because, if there is a train, there is CO2 anyway, so that's not a problem. It's -- I think the question is more related to the methanol, but I would say it should be perfectly fine.

No, no -- yes. No, no, that shouldn't be a problem. And typically, what we have inside this guy is also, we have a double wall system, right? So it's -- so even though you get some leakage, it's not like it's methanol all over the place. So it's still contained. So I wouldn't worry about the methanol. And I agree. I thought the question was regarding kind of a basement or something, encapsulated room. Then -- but if it's a well-vented room, then there's no problem, no. Then you can incorporate this guy.

I mean, look, we had a webinar some time ago also with MSA and with experts from a university in Ulster in Northern Ireland on hydrogen safety. And one of the presentations was from a project called High Tunnel, where hydrogen safety was analyzed in tunnels. And of course, if you have an explosion of hydrogen or deflagration of hydrogen in a tunnel, the pressure wave, the shock waves are terrible. But that doesn't really -- that's not really a big problem with methanol because if there is a leak, yes, you have a methanol leak. And can you share a few words? Is it -- does it cause cancer? Is it poisonous, dangerous, harmful for the environment?

Yes, of course. You should ask the methanol expert themselves, right? But overall, it's toxic. Don't drink it. That's the first thing. Don't drink it. No doubt about it. The difference, I would say, in handling it compared to diesel and gasoline is that if you have a spillage with methanol, it's disintegrating over weeks. So that means, if you have a spill, in 2 or 3 weeks, it's gone. If you have a spillage of diesel, it will stay. It will not go away, right? But where you spill, if you have any plants, anything, they will die because it is toxic. But in 2 weeks, it will be clean again. And actually, I'm not proud of this, though, but we did have a minor spillage here in Denmark at some point in time, not due to the fuel cell or not due to the operation but due to improper handling at some point. And the outcome from that was if it comes into the drain, you put a bit of water into it, and the authority says don't do anything else. There's nothing more to do. You just add it. You dilute it, and everything is good. And when it comes to the cleanup part of the wastewater, they actually enjoy -- all the bacteria, et cetera, they enjoy the methanol. So it's not big deal. Don't big -- include in high, call it, concentrations, but low concentrations, this is absolutely no problem.

It's no problem. Okay.

So environmental impact, they say, is much better with methanol compared to diesel and gas.

To diesel, of course. Yes, of course.

Yes. Yes.

And what about ethanol? Could ethanol be used as well?

In principle, ethanol could be used. Now it gets a bit technical. Ethanol, it reforms at a much higher temperature than methanol, so the reformer will have to be a bit different from what we have today. You'll need almost twice the operating temperature of a reformer of ethanol compared to methanol. So it's simply easier to crack the chain of methanol compared to ethanol. So...

Yes, of course. Yes, of course.

But it could work just as well, absolutely.

Okay. Because we often have participants from Brazil. In this case, I think [ Oscar ] is I think from Argentina if I remember correctly. But let's say, in Brazil, ethanol is everywhere. So in principle, it will be possible, but you need a different reformer.

Yes, yes, yes.

Okay. Can the waste heat be somehow recovered and used?

Yes. But for this particular device, we have not built it in, but for some of the marine application, this is one of the selling points as well, that you can actually utilize the heat. So there, we have a heat exchange inside. And then you have a coolant media or heating media, oil -- thermal oil of some sort, which pass through the unit, and then you use that for heating up. And the quality of the heat -- what we see in the marine system is that the quality of the heat is 120 degree, 140 degrees, something in that degree Celsius. So that means that you can actually boil water or use it for some process, not only for heating water. So the quality of the heat is quite good in the system. And yes, you can use the waste easily.

Okay. 120 degrees, I mean this is even enough to -- really to dry things completely. That's pretty good, pretty cool. What quality of methanol is needed?

Today, we work on the IMPCA standard, so that's the industrial standard for methanol, and that's sufficient to what we do. So traditional industrial, not something lab-based or something crazy, is standard industry. And that's a huge commodity. So that's what they ship around in bulk qualities. And I would say the quality systems for IMPCA quality is quite good. So quality certificates are supporting this standard, and that's what we work on as well.

Okay. Cool. So before we go on with the questions, guys, please, please, please register for the next webinars. Share them with your friends, with your colleagues, with your team members, with your husbands and wives or whatever, whoever is interested in hydrogen. Next week, I'll speak about the economics of hydrogen transport, large-scale transport ammonia versus LOHC versus -- probably versus methanol as well. I haven't seen the presentation yet. In 2 weeks, we'll speak about fuel cell -- about electrolyzer stack performance using single cell monitoring systems. And in 3 weeks, we'll have another panel discussion on the best practice for hydrogen safety. So please, please, please register for those webinars to make sure you don't miss that great knowledge that our experts share with you. All right. Let's go on with the questions. What's the reliability of your system?

Yes. Here, we are considering multiple reliability elements. You can say, what is the start-up reliability. How often does it start when you ask it to start? And the second one is, of course, reliability in how long will it operate before you see some kind of failure in the systems. I must be honest with you. I don't have the numbers right here in front of us, but we are complying to what the requirements are for the telecom business, which is extremely high. So it's not like it will not start out 1 out of 20 times. It starts. So typically, when we do demonstration at a customer, we have 100% reliability start-up at the systems. Over time, of course, you may see a failure, but it's a 99-point-something region for reliability on start-up. I don't have the specific number. Yes.

Yes. But if it's 99%, it's -- that's much more than what we see with other products. Let's put it that way.

A very, very fair reliability on that. And one of the reasons for that is also that the systems does self-check, If you don't override it, it does self-check, automatically start up once in a while, typically monthly basis and run systems without any power production or anything like that. But it heats up. It gets conditioners and everything. So it's -- know if it's available to deliver power or not.

All right. Okay. Are you active in China or planning to be active in China?

Yes, we are active in China.

Okay. What's the lead time? I would assume it's commercially available. So if I need one, I can order it. I can get it. What's the typical lead time?

But David, you're not the first one asking, so you're not first in line, right? But this guy, if you order today, with the production rate we have today and lineup, I would say my May time frame, you'll be able to get something.

May of what year?

This year. This year.