Affirm Holdings, Inc. (AFRM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon. Thanks for joining. I am Reggie Smith. I cover Fintech here at JPMorgan, and I'm honored to host Max Levchin, Founder and CEO of Affirm this afternoon. Max, thanks for coming out. How are you?

Good. Thank you. Thank you for pronouncing my name right. That is totally high bar.

No, it's tough. I practice. I'll be honest with you, I practice.

You're welcome.

Listen, so I wanted to start -- I think people have a sense of the story, but it's always good to hear like why you founded the company and how you are different than kind of traditional credit card companies. So I'll start there and let you kind of talk and...

Sure. So I think credit cards are the single best user interface ever created, like the -- just swiping a card, chipping it, whatever you do, is an amazing user interface. It has not been surpassed in my -- certainly, in my 30 years of doing payment products. The underlying financial product is just not good for consumers. It might be even bad by and large, but I'll stop at consumer finance. People don't understand how they work for a lot of banks, present company excluded, of course. The fine print has become the business model. They literally hide various fees and tricks like deferred interest in the fine print, hoping the consumer will get tripped up. So you're literally betting on your customers screwing up to make more money. And I think that's just a bad thing for consumers. The way disruption works is you find an opportunity where someone has made it their business to not do the right thing by their customer and you show up with a better product, but you also align yourself with that customer interest. And so on the consumer side, it's very clear, you should just do better than what a lot of credit card products have done. And then on the merchant side, the single highest expense for anyone selling things is converting that customer. Bringing them into the checkout spot is expensive. But then at the moment they're like, hey you know what, maybe you should buy, that conversion rate has always been low. The dumbest way of fixing the conversion rate to say, hey, don't leave, here is 10% off or 20% off. Then you're just teaching a customer that there's always going to be a day when the 10% off is going to become 20% off, and they should wait. So you're actually mortgaging the future with today's discounting. And so Affirm has this idea that, hey, we can build a better financing product and allow merchants basically buy down whatever consumer might pay and bear interest so that instead of explicitly signaling, I'll give you 10% off, you can actually use 3% or 4% or whatever it takes to pay for someone's high value of money and help that consumer make a buying decision. The reason we stuck so aggressively to the idea of no late fees and certainly no gimmicks is to make sure that in good and bad times, we are aligned with our consumer success. If they are able to pay their bills, we'll make money. If they're not, we're screwed. In the current sort of seemingly soon to be scary economic environment, it's extra important because it really puts on the right side of risk decisioning. We won't extend credit unless we know you're good for it or our models tell us you are. So that's the history of the product.

What's interesting to me is you guys have given kind of long-term guidance. And I mean, your margin profile -- target margin profile is very similar to credit card companies, but you're not charging late fees. And so where are you making up the value there?

I think the -- again, the comparison, I think is dangerous. The tools are used for the same purpose, buying things. There's quite a lot of difference between us. Generally speaking, we are not prepared to lose money on transactions. Our margin comes through the fact that we like to make money on transactions. And so we are quite careful. This comes from the fact that we get to approve every transaction. Credit card sort of hand over the line and say, "Hey, you know what, I hope they can all the time stay good and you don't lose your job." We say the same thing, but when we see that you may have lost your job where the economic times are tougher, we get to say, "Hey, the next transaction is a bad idea for you financially. And therefore, for us, we're not going to lend money unless we believe you are capable of paying us back." And so I think I would argue that our margins are actually better than a lot of credit card companies, in part that sends from the fact that we make the most money at the highest credit quality consumers. We don't have the weird barbell thing, where your deep subprime is actually your source of cash. And then suddenly, deep subprime is in trouble because recession and no, you have to defend. We don't have any of those structural problems.

That's interesting. I appreciate that. Okay. So you guys just reported results. Two things that really stood out to me, particularly in light of the fact that a lot of e-commerce names we're talking about weakness and slowdown, you guys showed great -- still strong GMV growth. And then you also talked about a path to profitability. Could you talk a little bit about what's driving the sustained growth? My sense is that you're still ramping up the Shopify and Amazon deals? And how much runway is there? And how should we think about that?

So you're exactly right. For quite a while, and I'll let you guess when the sort of equilibrium between transactors of Affirm-like product and not Affirm-like product sort of becomes a steady state, but we're very, very far away from that. I think buy now pay later, as an industry is low single digits in this country. So independent of e-commerce growth, we are seeing growth within the merchants, within the partners that we already have, e.g., Amazon and Shopify, but also we're still signing lots and lots of new merchants. There are lots of coverage to be had, both online and offline. And one of the things that's really happening right now is you're seeing slowdowns in e-commerce, but you're also seeing quite a lot of rotation among segments. For example, our travel and ticketing segment posted well north of doubling of GMV because people are tired of being cooped up, and they're trying to get on planes and go places and go to restaurants and things like that. And so sort of the shift from goods to experience is something another vector of growth. And so overall TAM is enormous. We're very, very early, lots of growth to be had there. Within our enterprise partnerships such as Walmart, Amazon, Shopify, Target, et cetera, we -- part of why we were picked by these giants that certainly had their picking their sort of partners, we provide the full solution. We can cover both the low AUV sort of paying for 6-week products all the way out to pay in 39 payments, your [ pallets unlike ]. And because we can cover the durations and the prices and the credit quality, we can solve all of their point-of-sale financing needs instead of just a particular point solution, e.g. some of our competitors. In practice, though, that doesn't mean all of them flip on at the same time. We deployed at Walmart over 3 years ago, and we still haven't actually fully brought out all the different products that we support. We deployed a Shopify exactly 1 year ago. We've just announced that we're bringing in longer term. And even within the longer terms, we have other subproducts that we're very excited to bring. So there's growth across industries. There's growth within the merchants that we already have, the secular trends are not impacting us yet. And at some point, they might, but we've got, I think, years to go before that happens.

Got it. You mentioned Shopify and I've got to ask you since I have you here. I talked about this in my initiation. To my knowledge, I believe investor policy has changed that those customers, you can market to them within Shopify and you show up there, but it's hard to get them outside of Shopify. Am I correct there? Or how do you get that Shopify shop at consumer that does paying for does a loan through the app? Like how do you get them outside of the app, so you can then market to them?

So the thing is I don't actually need to. The real power of having these massive overlapping ecosystem -- Shopify users are not married to Shopify as their only source of buying. They are also very active on Amazon. They're also very active on Walmart. They're very active on many, many, many other online stores. And so the most important thing for us as we sign these massive partnerships was to be unrestricted in our ability to interact with customers and ability to use the underwriting learnings. Like it's very expensive to reacquire a consumer from merchant to merchant to merchant, if you don't know who they are and you can't say, "Oh, wait a second, I've seen you before, and here's what we understand about your credit profile." And so none of those things are restricted. I am very patient when it comes to reacquisition of consumers that I have complete understanding of the repayment profile. And depending on the type of integration and the complexity of integration, consumers learn about Affirm at different paces, but they will eventually end up on the Affirm app, interacting with both our payments products and all the other things that we do.

Understood. Amazon, obviously, a huge announcement. You gave some stats in your fiscal second quarter, calendar fourth quarter. It still seems like, I guess, the presentation within Amazon app is still very low. Can you talk a little bit about the opportunity there? It seems like there's an enormous opportunity. I go into Amazon, and I have a hard time finding Affirm. What are you guys doing to make that...

That's primarily the function of Amazon being enormous and having lots and lots of many different things going on. The way to think about Amazon is, first of all, it's exactly -- right, the opportunity is massive and there's lots to do. We've had so far a great set of interactions, planning or point of view. Both companies are very obsessed with consumers, consumer satisfaction, both companies think very long term. So there's a lot to do. Both sides are very committed to doing it. It's less about finding Affirm in the front page of Amazon, and it's all about making sure Affirm is there when an Amazon shopper thinks, "Hey, I would like to pay for this over time." And that is something both sides are very, very focused on. If you look at Amazon's reviews -- by the way, Amazon reviews everything like I'm not sure there's something they don't review, but they have a review program for their payment instruments. I believe, at least last night, check, we were the highest reviewed way to pay for anything on Amazon. And that is the enabling condition for Amazon and say, you know what, this is a partner we'd like to invest with or invest into bringing out to more consumers. So I feel very, very bullish on where that goes.

Got it. So one thing I noticed and you guys have reported strong increased engagement, I think, 20%-ish type engagement improvements. But people still use the account less than 3x on average per year. I think credit cards are used 150x a year on average. Where do you want to be? Do you want to be more episodic -- do you want to be more every day? Is there a trade-off in terms of the value you can extract in the transaction.

Looking for my prop. Here's the silent answer to your question, it's my license. That's my Debit+ card. I used it twice in the last 12 hours. The goal is to be a daily tool. And it's a -- we think a particularly clever way of getting there. We absolutely want to be the transaction tool of choice when it comes to a considered purchase. That's where we started. That's the hardest thing that's where we take the longest term risk, et cetera. And we arrived at low AOV -- by the way, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the increase in engagement, the repeat transactions, repeat transaction numbers are all coming from the fact that we are now successful, in a way, as well as -- you're not going to buy any more mattresses or work out bikes in any given calendar year, but you're definitely going to buy more than 1 t-shirt, more than 1 jacket. And so we're growing very well there. The sort of undiscovered country of "buy now, pay later" is twofold. It's off-line. We're very heavily invested there and this card is all about that. And that's where majority of transactions still happen. 90-plus percent of purchasing with credit cards, debit cards, whatever, all happens in physical retail. And two, sort of within that off-line world is groceries. And I do think we have a massive role to play there. I think our consumers love us and they trust us to help them budget. And as recession rolls in, I think you will find more consumers having second thoughts about luxury purchases, but no one is going to change their plans on feeding their family. And so we see a massive opportunity for us to be a part of everyday transactions by way of helping consumers with what they actually will never compromise in terms of purchasing. So that's the purpose behind Debit+. There's a lot of other omnichannel as it's called now, investments that we're making.

I got to ask you this. So -- and I'm sure this will resonate with the audience here. I'm addicted to rewards and points. And so how do you get people like me and like them to use the Debit+ and to give up their Amex or the Chase Sapphire, [ shameless plug ]...

I would allow -- I would never hope at least at this conference to talk anyone out of their Chase Sapphire card.

Appreciate that.

As a gearing member, I'm not good enough for it, but I do have my United Explorer in my back pocket somewhere too or in my wallet, so I am a customer. But I'll spare you the rant on the coastal elites that don't revolve, but a huge percentage of this country is not actually point hunting. The Points Guy is everyone's favorite read when you can use your credit card like it's a debit card where at the end of the month, you just 0 it all out and maybe you paid an interest or a lead fee here and there, but it doesn't really matter to you. Vast majority of Americans live in the reality of being 70%, 75% utilized, they're not really obsessing over rewards. They're just trying to make sure their family is well fed and they're not in too much debt, and they're making better than minimum payments and things like that. And so a lot of our customers are -- a lot of our consumers are those people. They actually are well employed. They're great human beings, they have families, they have jobs. They're not obsessed with eking out that next free trip. That said, we do have Affirm rewards program that we've been working very diligently on. So you will see that arrive as a feature of your Debit+ account and your Affirm ecosystem overall. We think of rewards a little bit differently. I think point hunting is interesting, but I think it's a bit of a game, a little bit of a luxury. I think there's more utility that you can have there. And so we're trying to come in it from the same sort of responsible financial life enabler that we think we are.

Understood. I got a question from the portal. They're asking in regards to your funding, your forward flow agreements. How committed or can you confirm how committed they are? I guess they're -- I'm guessing that the question is, could those forward flow partners pull back? Or what's the visibility there?

It's very good. A big sort of structural philosophical approach that we've had to all of our funding partnerships from the very, very beginning, I guess, true story from 9 years ago, the very first warehouse line I personally closed. I got on the phone with a partner and said, "Hey, we're going to go with you. You're the first one we're signing with. We're probably going to screw up at some point. We're not going to screw up so badly that you're going to have to fire us, but I need to believe that you're going to be our partner as we clean up our message as we learn." Nine years ago, we haven't screwed up in quite some time. But the idea of -- it's okay to leave a few pennies on the table. So we chose the higher rates. The reason I had to call this guy and said, "Hey, you didn't outbid the next cut rate lender. But I would rather take your lower advance rate and higher interest rate so that we can be partners through the moment when you have second thoughts about whatever." That philosophy we took with us to every single warehouse line of which we now have quite a number in every single forward flow agreement, every single securitization we've ever done. It's always built around the idea is we have to generate a high-quality asset. The #1 thing I obsess over -- like the way to trigger me to wake me up in the morning and say, hey, any one of our facilities, any one of our lines, any one of our securitization is out of the band of credit performance that we promised. But we will go very, very far to make sure we stay within those bands. And that's because -- not just because we need to make sure we did all the covenants we've signed, but because we've promised to be good partners with the understanding that our forward flow providers, et cetera, are going to be good partners with us. So we signed long-term agreements, nothing is due to renew for quite some time. We've just done a securitization. We've just added a bunch of capacity every time we sign warehouse and forward flow agreements, we typically get really nice complements how good our team is to work with. So we go very far to make sure these are personable and personal relationships. That said, we watch the numbers like hawks to make sure that we are never on the wrong side of any deal -- and I think in rougher or more complicated times, which is certainly where we are now. These partnerships are tested, but people also flight to quality. Like there's a real sense that I've got several conversations that I've had with our funding partners that they don't just love our assets that they always have, they expect us to be one of the partners that they rely on to place more capital. In fact, when we just did our most recent deal, we have to literally tell people we rely on a capacity for this one. We're going to have to come back to you next time. So the demand is very strong. The deals are really robust. Most importantly, our attitude towards these deals and the relationship with the people signing them is exactly where I think it should be.

Understood. So just thinking about your portfolio today, and I don't have the stat in front of me of what proportion is held on balance sheet. The question is, do you anticipate that changing? Are you -- is your appetite to hold more increasing? And then the second part of that question is with rates rising and there being presumably more options for your forward flow partners to invest in different things, has that changed their appetite or willingness or eagerness to use? Because my sense is that when rates were rock bottom that these folks have money to put to work and didn't have any place to put it and so...

So I mean the environment is certainly pretty dynamic, sort of 2 -- a couple of important points, I think, worth knowing. So generally speaking, we're quite happy with the way we fund the business. So we don't anticipate the need or they really have plans to drastically blow out our balance sheet or anything of this sort. We have averaged 2% equity and we quite like that number. And if you sort of look roughly, I think, 2 years and a quarter ago, we were at about 10% equity. So overall equity participation in our book has been diminishing, and that's exactly where we wanted to be. So I think, a pretty great sort of bookends of our capital use efficiency. In terms of rates, we've been in business for a long time, and we ran the company just fine back when the rates were not a bottom, and we had 1 full relationships. And we cultivated them and did really well for our partners back then, and we'll continue to do so now. Three, as we grow larger and become a more reliable simply through just having more and more quarters reported, partner on the debt side, the doors to deeper pools of capital that are less rate sensitive, but more -- had lots more capital to deploy are open to us. 5 years ago, going to an insurance company or a pension fund, it was sort of like probably, we're probably going to get laughed out of the room, like we're just too new. And at the time, I was like, we're 5 years in, how can we be too new. We're no start-up. So it's now over 10 years, and these doors are open to us, and we are adding insurance companies and pension funds. And I think those folks are certainly looking for yield. But more than anything, I think they look for stability and great partnerships. And that's what we have become known to bring.

Understood. I'll pause for a second and see if there are any questions in the audience. If you have a question, raise your hand, I'll have the microphone come over to you. Let's go over here. One second.

Can I ask about your relationship with the networks, so Visa and Mastercard? Because I think out of the buy now pay later, you are the only ones to make some noise around paying your balances not with a card. But now I see that you took your -- I think it's a Visa card, right, out of the pocket. And so I wonder, and PayPal kind of went through this before as well kind of the network and trying to steer kind of customers. So how do you see the networks in terms of -- are they partners? Or is your kind of long-term ambition to kind of perhaps get some of that?

So a good -- this is an imperfect analogy. So it may or may not work, but I'll try it anyway. So a good way of thinking about Affirm is -- so we are to Visa what Netflix is to Comcast. The pipes are really, really important. We will never, for some definition of never, get to that 1 last grocery store and wire them up for acceptance of Affirm as much as we would like to. There's some real benefits to being directly connected with us. Vast majority of our network -- our merchant connections are direct. We get information about what's being purchased to sometimes extremely high detail, sometimes less detail, but it's really valuable to be data-enabled. If you're not data-enabled network, you're kind of riding the old rails. That said, the last mile has been fully plumbed and piped by the networks, and we love that. We're partnered with them. We have a great relationship with Visa. The card, as you correctly noticed, will have a Visa logo on it. So that when you go to that last grocery store, you don't have to think twice work my card from Affirm, work here or not. We bring a lot more value on top of the networks because of the direct integrations that we have with the merchants because of the data, because of the ability to underwrite, because of the structural advantages, because of the fact that frankly, the networks are built around very, very simple funding model. The kind of the -- not Affirm 101 sort of how did we start the company was my answer, the Affirm 201, if you look at credit cards and how credit cards are priced. The MDR and the APR, the merchant price and the consumer price were fixed in the past, well before the current transaction got contemplated, which is complete insanity. I decided I'm going to be okay with $14.99. The merchant decided they're okay paying 3%. And here I am, and I'm dying to buy this thing, and I'm having a second thoughts. The merchant would jump out of their skin to say, you know what, I'll give you a discount. I'll do anything. I spent so much money on marketing. I wanted you here, now here you are, you're thinking and you're thinking it's too expensive. And the only tool they have is I'll give you 10% off, which is stupid because the guy behind me in line says, "Oh, wait a second, you're giving everybody 10% off or is that guy special?" It's a terrible way to run a business, and that's what merchants do to drive themselves out and sort of the "going out of business sale" is immediately after the 50% off sale. And Affirm, if you think of Internet as large as this idea that you go from batch processing, which is, by the way, how older card networks -- the entire banking infrastructure in this country run -- still runs to real-time processing. The pricing of each transaction on the Affirm network occurs in real time, and that happens whether we're writing Visa rails or we're writing our own. The real-time of the pricing and the targeting of what's going on is essential to who we are. I think Visa recognized that when they partnered with us, and we love them for the distribution that they bring, and we have a lot of defensibility around the data and the real-time nature of both risk management and pricing that we have.

Any other questions? Good. I got more. Let me talk a little bit about the competitive environment. We're hearing that it's getting tougher. Certainly, there are tons of checkout options on checkout pages. What are you seeing competitively? And then how do you -- you guys don't spend a lot in advertising. Like how do you compete? And why would someone choose Affirm over someone else at the checkout, that moment to checkout?

Well, I think the fewer competitors are going from 100% year-on-year growth to 15% year-on-year growth, a merchant might think twice about integrating with them because they're clearly choking their growth engine, which means that their approvals are going to go real down. And the other unnamed competitor to partner with has just done a massive layoff. So between those 2, I feel extricated by my competitive options today. I think for a very long time, we refused to burn money in large bonfires, which a lot of my competition has done for quite some time and just obsessed over building the best product possible. By the way, that does result in deeper approvals. We see our product as not just what sort of the button that with [ VGI ]...

Does it mean higher? Or when you say, deeper approval...

Deeper approval as in approve more people. Out of 100 applicants, how many will actually get Affirm approval. So our product strategy is both the user interface of what the consumer sees and what the merchant benefits from as well as the underlying risk management. So as a risk manager, we want to approve everyone, but we can't because some people are borrowing beyond their means and with no late fees and sort of structurally prohibiting ourselves from lending money where we can get it back is really, really important. And so just iterating on the product, not burning money on crazy advertising deals and most certainly not signing deals that are economically nonviable. The most important thing to understand about the sort of competitive nature of the NPL is way too many players. In fact, at some point, I think we're the only one, but fortunately, the world is now rapidly stabilizing. We were the only one for a time that would not sign a deal where we wouldn't make money on every transaction. You cannot make negative money on every transaction and make it up in volume. Like that's just a bad idea for businesses. And we're not like that. We have been very, very disciplined about it. And I don't want to sound giddy, but as the economic times get tougher, it's a little bit easier to survive if you don't have to go back to your merchant partners and say, "Hey, so here's the thing. I signed this deal with you, and I gave you a ton of money income marketing. I'm losing money, so can we please change that?" And so I think that discipline is finally going to come pay a lot of dividends for us. And by the way, a huge part of why these enterprise merchants like Shopify, Amazon, Walmart, partner with us, we approach every one of these conversations as a very honest exchange of information where I said, "Look, here's where we make money. Here's where we lose money. If we lose money on your volume, we will be out of business fast. That cannot happen. And so if it doesn't work for you, that's okay, but it has to work for both sides." And to every single one of our partners has appreciated that clarity. And in the world where money is cheap and it grows on trees and you can raise money all day every day, it's hard to compete. You have to stay very true to that north and just keep your head down and believe that at some point it's all going to get found out, it's getting found out now. And so I think today, I have a lot more credibility going to a merchant and saying, look, "If I cut this deal, I will lose money, and that's not okay." I think a year ago, merchants would probably tell me, well, you have competitors that are willing to lose pools of money here, what's your problem. So I think the -- again, I don't want to show too much sudden for it, but I think competitively, in a tougher economic environment, it's easier to just have a rational conversation.

Follow-up on that, just a point of clarification. As you were explaining that, I was thinking that off the top of my head, I can think of 2 partners, 3 partners where you are relatively exclusive. So in Amazon, you're exclusive; I think in Shopify, you're exclusive; Peloton, obviously, your exclusive. That's got to help for pricing. Yes/No? Or like how should we think about that? And is the competition -- where you are -- or in cases where you are presented versus no one else, like what's the difference there? And how -- what are you seeing?

So we don't obviously disclose all the pricing information. And so probably not something I want to comment in too much detail. I think generally speaking, pricing is a band below a certain level, it just doesn't make sense for us and we can't do it above a certain level, the merchant cannot afford it and they'd rather not. Within that band, it's a question of, first and foremost, what's the consumer experience? Like if the consumers get approved, but they hate you or they get decline all the time, it doesn't work to the merchant, they'd be a one time. Next is structurally whether this is an interest-bearing product for a consumer or not, makes a huge difference. Obviously, merchant is paying that interest. Essentially, it's a lot more expensive for them, but they love the top line the brings. They have to believe that the bottom line makes sense for them. We are similarly minded but we don't want to put them out of business any more than we want them pushing us out. So therefore, we were very, very receptive to that. So understanding how that works with them. On the consumer side, pricing is based on risk, of course, so it's entirely floated. And generally speaking, we tend to command the highest prices in the industry, which I think is factual. Not so much because we are good at negotiating exclusive deals, but because we have, by far, the best product and our consumer satisfaction rates are really, really high. And so as consumers interact with Affirm, they tell the merchant, "Hey, this was great." I don't particularly care if the merchant then says, "Well, yes, but I also want to offer another BNPL provider." My assumption is that, over time, the world becomes -- it supports multiple BNPL brands, 1 or 2 probably. My job is to make sure that the consumers that looks at the handful of logos at checkout and the eyes drift towards the firm that one that was great. I love those guys, no late fees, great consumer satisfaction, really enjoyed myself, did not get pushed into more debt than I should have taken on. I think we'll do just fine.

We've got 2 minutes left. I got 2 quick questions. The first, I wanted to give you a chance to talk about your path to profitability. So you guys, I think 3 out of the 5 quarters you've been public, you've been profitable, but you've also committed to being sustainably profitable by the end of fiscal '23. I want you to talk about that. But then the second thing before you get out of here, I wanted to hear your view longer term with the industry, and you kind of touched on it a second ago, but like what does this look like in 10 years? Are traditional FIs offering BNPL? Are there more providers? Like how do you kind of see the industry evolving? You've got 1 minute and 40 so...

I tend to give long answers. So path to profitability, I mean, you said it yourself, it's not that hard. So like eases way to think about it, so long as the growth remains good and if I deliver one message, we're very committed to profitability at a transactional level. There's not enough people in the world that can hire that would pass the test of working at Affirm. At some point, number of transactions, times the transactional profit overwhelms the fixed cost. And then you're profitable and you can't become unprofitable so long as you at least maintain and keep growing. And so that's the plan. We just sort of posted a safe date. That's really all we did.

Real quick. So that doesn't include or assume any layoffs. I know...

No layoffs.

Got it. Okay.

I will not take another round of [indiscernible]. I've had to deal with [ layoffs with ] my last company. That sucked. I will not do that again. Future of the industry is really interesting. I think the world will support 1 or 2 new brands of BNPL. They may already be here today. I'm certainly confident that Affirm will be one of those brands. We intend to be -- I'd say a 100-year-old company or a 100-year company, but I'll at least prognosticate as far as next 20, 30, 40 years, I'd like to be Affirm. The one thing that I think is going to happen, and I think 10 years ago, this was total nonsense, nobody believed it. And I think now it's pretty real. I think this idea of not revolving, paying things over time, close ended, basically using your debit card with a transactional borrowing capacity is going to be a huge thing. Like I'm very, very committed to this Debit+ vision because I think it's the right thing for consumers. We haven't said it too loudly before, but one of the things we're going to do is we're going to license out or partner with any card -- debit card issuer who wants to add Debit+ functionality to their card. Not so much because we see that as a massive profit setter, but because it is really the right thing for the end consumer. So if you're a credit union or a regional bank, don't have access to the yields that credit card issuers have, we will offer you our tech stack. We built it explicitly for that purpose. So our card is hopefully one of many Debit+ branded cards, where Debit+ is the enabling technology and not the underlying lenders.

Appreciate it. Thank you.