AGC Inc. (5201) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

We have now approached the scheduled time. We would now like to begin the AGC Inc. Automotive Business Overview. I'll be acting as your facilitator today. I am from PI IR, my name is Ogawa. I would now like to introduce the attendees for today. From the Automotive Company, President, Senior Executive Officer, Yoshio Takegawa. First, we will hear from Takegawa, the Automotive Company President, in regards to the Automotive Business Strategy. This will be followed by a Q&A session. We plan to end the session at 6:00 p.m. We seek your cooperation. [Operator Instructions] I will hand it over to Mr. Takegawa.

Thank you very much for your kind introduction. My name is Takegawa, and I'm from the Automotive Company. Today, I would like to give you an overview of the company's business. Thank you for your cooperation. Here is today's agenda. First, I will give an overview of the Automotive Business and its position in the AGC Group and also present the company's vision and strength. Next, I'll explain 3 measures to improve profitability and the business outlook as our efforts to realize our mid- to long-term goal of where we want to be in 2030, which is Vision 2030. Finally, I'll explain our initiatives for sustainability, one of our key management initiatives. First, I'll give an overview of the Automotive Business. The AGC Group conducts business activities based on a company-wide strategy of continuously creating economic and social value through its core businesses and strategic businesses and is recognized by outside experts as a company that practices ambidextrous management. AGC's core business refers to existing businesses such as Architectural Glass and Essential Chemicals and the company's Automotive Exterior Window Glass belongs to our core businesses. Core businesses are required to build a strong and stable earnings based over long term. On the other hand, strategic businesses are those in high-growth areas where AGC will leverage its strength to create new businesses. The company aims to create and expand highly profitable businesses in mobility field that will become pillars of AGC's feature. This is the positioning of the company within the AGC Group. The AGC Group net sales for fiscal year 2022 were JPY 2,035.9 billion. Of this amount, the company sales amounted to JPY 417.6 billion (sic) [JPY 417.8 billion ], accounting for approximately 20%. The breakdown by region is approximately 1/2 in Asia, including Japan, and the Western Europe and the United States. This is the company's global network. The company has global networks in 3 regions: Asia, Europe and the Americas. And the blue circles indicate manufacturing sites for Automotive Exterior Glass, which is our core business. In the red circle, we have a manufacturing base for cover glass for car-mounted displays. In addition to manufacturing sites, we also have development sites globally. In addition to Japan, the U.S. and Europe, we have an R&D base in China to capture the market trend in the fast-growing Chinese market. These global networks contribute to building strong relationship of trust with OEM manufacturers and are also a source for creating future mobility businesses, such as antenna-related and sensing-related businesses. This is the vision and mission that we, Automotive Company, have set forth in Vision 2030. We believe that our business has the potential to create a variety of social values in many fields towards the great transformation of the mobility society through CASE. We intend to realize this vision of where we want to be 2030 by continuing to create and expand a wide range of new businesses through new products, technologies and services that leverage our strengths. These are company's strengths that we believe we will support the realization of our vision of where we want to be in 2030, which is the Vision 2030. First, we have a market-leading customer base. The company has built a relationship of trust with many global OEMs that are leading the EV and mobility markets. And through these strong relationships, we have access to business opportunities in the new mobility market. Next is our global production sales and development system. Many of our customers have global operations. So having a global network that allows us to provide high-quality products and services is of great value to our customers. Third is the AGC Group's total technological ability. The AGC Group projects is a wide range of inorganic and organic material technologies, functional design capabilities that meets the needs of a mobile society and production technologies that ensure the stable production of high-quality product. This is the value we provide to our customers also. Fourth is the synergy generated by automotive window glass plus mobility. The company has both a core business of Automotive Exterior Window Glass and the strategic business of Mobility, and we're seeing an increased number of cases of business creation through synergies such as collaboration on the new mobility products through relationship of trust with the customers who have relationships with us in the window glass businesses. Next, I will explain our initiatives toward 2030, which is Vision 2030. Now first, let me explain our understanding of market trends. As represented by CASE, the automotive industry is rapidly changing at quite a high speed. So for instance, from the perspective of connectivity, around about the year 2030, it is said that the 5G connectivity market will ramp up. And for autonomous driving, Level 4 to Level 5 autonomous driving basically focused on MaaS vehicles. We again assume a ramp up as well. Now with EV as well as the accommodating environments are also progressing as well, as we know. And we also realize that there are many business opportunities in this field. With investment of EV, we need to secure our business opportunities and we will make sure that we carry out our initiatives accordingly. I would like to explain this in social value section, but we will expand the sales of sustainability products as well as inclusive GHG reduction. We will make sure that we steadfastly approach environmental issues as well, as seen on the bottom-right graph. For the company, global production volume of cars, we assume that there will not be an increase. So rather than being dependent on the volume of units sold, we are shifting towards a more value-add operation. Now for EVs, especially in the EV advanced regions such as Europe and China and North America, by 2030, the global EV ratio is assumed to be approximately 50%. So once again, we need to leverage this opportunity to business opportunities. Now again, at the company for the past few years, in Europe, we have acknowledged large impairment losses, and it is true that we have been challenged in profitability. So we needed to expedite our improvement in profitability, and so we are very cautious of the time line and we are also cautious of speed as well. Now allow me to explain briefly the backdrop to why we are in this state. Now at the company for the longest time, we have been working based on the assumption that a global production of automobiles will increase. And so we were following the global footprint expansion of our customers, and we increased our capacity and facilities accordingly. However, around about the latter half of 2010, for Europe as well as the U.S., the automotive sales became sluggish and this resulted in a rapid deterioration of our profitability. In North America, in 2019, we acknowledged an impairment loss, and we began our structural reform. And for the European markets, we also focused on lessening head count. However, thereafter, COVID-19 pandemic emerged, shortage of semiconductors as well as the [indiscernible] supply chain and also the lower production of automotive, the climate further deteriorated. And at the end of 2021, we further acknowledged impairment loss. Thereafter, Russia invaded Ukraine as well as high fuel prices in the European market as well as Russian market deteriorating. And so for the European markets, once again, end of 2022, we had to once again acknowledge impairment losses. Now on a global scale, once again, the shortage of semiconductors as well as lower production volume and also the rise of raw materials and fuel prices, this impacted the entire company's profitability as well. So under these circumstances, it is imminent that we focus on profit improvement. And we will -- we have embarked on various initiatives, which I would like to explain hereafter. Now for the company, we have 3 pillars of focus to improve our profit. So first for the automotive glass, we need to immediately improve our profitability, and so we are reviewing our sales prices. So this is unavoidable. So we will elevate the prices to a more optimal price, and we have initiated this endeavor starting last year. Now for the short to midterm, we are focusing on European structural reform. And also inclusive of high-efficient facility implementation as well as enhancing productivity, we are continuing with this initiative, as we speak. On top of that, for the core business, the automotive exterior glass, we will no longer focus on expanding the number of units, but rather, shift to high-function, high value-add products as well as expansion of our mobility business. And within the company, this policy is called Volume to Value. Now I'd like to move on to our pricing policy. Now as I mentioned, we are seeing a rise in raw materials and fuel prices as well as shortage of semiconductors and a very fragmented supply chain. So there was an abrupt decline in production of units, and so we needed to absorb this decline by raising prices. As well as for low-performing models, we needed to revise these prices as well as follow up on new model sourcing, which will allow us to create a healthy business operation that will allow us to accommodate a more optimal price line. Now moving on to structural reform. Now again, in the past, in Belgium and Germany as well as in the United States, we have concentrated several sites as well as streamlined several sites to allow us to bring down costs and also reduce our production capacity. Now around about 2020, on a global scale, we have been incrementally implementing high functional facilities as well as, at the same time, focusing on eliminating low utilization and low productivity lines as well. So again, with an eye on the market trends, we will create an optimal production and supply structure. Now from here, I would like to move on to explaining the third initiative, which is higher functionality and value add. Now once again, with the progression of EV, there will be more business opportunities. And so we need to accommodate this strength, and I would like to explain how we do this with our product lineup. Now again, with the expansion of more and more EVs, heat insulation, light control glass will be utilized for sunroofs as well as sound insulation glasses as well. So there will be strong demand in this area, high function products. And especially with EV, it is the norm to assemble the batteries under the floor of a car, which means that the head clearance of conventional car design will be quite contained. And so we need an open panorama sunroof, which is of large scale, and we believe that the demand will rise in Europe and China. And as you see on the upper-right graph, we are expecting a surge in demand. So to ramp up completely, it will take a bit more time, but we are preparing ourselves to accommodate this market change. Now from here onwards, I would like to cite some examples of high-performing products. One is the Low-E insulating glass, so high solar control as well is realized. So this, along with insulation properties, it will actually improve the fuel efficiency as well as the comfort of the cabin, and it will also improve the cruise range of the EV. Now during the summer, it will block the sun, and it will keep the cabin cool. And during the winter season, it will not escape the heat to the outside. And so it will create a comfortable warm cabin. And also by utilizing that roof glass, we can have a shadeless setting as well, so it will contribute to lightening the car weight as well as head clearance. So we will be utilizing AGC's material technology as well as performance design and production technology, and so this uses Toyota's Lexus RZ roof glass. Next is a light control glass, which we call Digital Curtain. This product has a specific film inserted between 2 sheets of glass, which can be controlled by voltage to instantly switch between dimmed mode and transparent mode. The dimmed mode reduces the heat and glare of the sun, while transparent mode allows the driver to enjoy a sense of openness, thereby creating an advanced interior space with improved comfort. This dimming roof glass was adopted for the first time as a mass-produced vehicle in Toyota Motor Company's new Harrier. In addition, this year, the world's first use of this light control glass, Digital Curtain, was adopted in a side glass of the rear doors. Toyota is the case of Toyota Motor -- this is the case of Toyota Motor Corporation's new Century. The use of this product in side glass eliminates the need for shades and provide a wider, more comfortable and more advanced rear seat space and also improves privacy. Another side glass product we would like to introduce is sound insulation glass. Since EVs do not have engines, noise during the ride is said to be more bothersome than in the past. This product improves sound insulation even further by laminating the side glass and inserting a special sound insulation membrane between the 2 sheets of glass. This product can provide a quieter and more comfortable cabin space in EVs, which are free from engine noise. From here, I will explain our basic strategy for mobility products that contribute to the realization of a CASE study -- so CASE society correction. First, we will further expand our display-related products centering the cover glass for automotive displays in which we have the world #1 market share. In addition, product related to sensors, which are required for autonomous driving and other applications, will soon move into the mass production phase and grow as a second pillar of mobility product by 2030. In addition, we will explore the strengthened business opportunities, such as antennas as our next-generation strategic business. As a result of this effort, we expect sales of mobility product to more than triple by 2030. I will now explain some specific examples of mobility products. First, as a display-related product, we are deploying cover glass for car-mounted displays. This product is the result of the combined strength of AGC Group. A special glass for chemical-strengthened Dragontrail is used as a substrate glass. And by utilizing antireflective film and anti-fingerprint film deposition technologies, this cover glass achieves high visibility and touch panel performance, and we enjoy top global share in the market. Recently, in response to the next generation of mobility, which is becoming a movable living space, we have been developing large displays. And this year, we developed 3D cover glass for pillar-to-pillar displays, which cover from the edge of the driver's seat to the edge of the front passenger's seat. Next, as a product-related to sensors, we introduced Wideye, an automotive glass for LiDAR. This product is a cover glass with a high near-infrared transmittance in the near-infrared region using LiDAR, utilizing AGC's glass composition design technology and glass processing technologies. By placing this cover glass in front of the LiDAR sensor, it can prevent breakdowns due to the scratches and the impacts as well as a deterioration of detection accuracy due to rain and dirt. By adding AGC's water repellent coating, AR coating, and heating, it is possible to maximize the excellent optical performance in a variety of environments. In addition, this glass can be processed into large area and exterior modules. It is suitable for all automotive glass applications, including windshields. Next, we introduce another sensor-related product, windshield glass compatible with FIR, far-infrared ray cameras. FIR camera using far-infrared ray light can detect people at night and are expected to improve the nighttime functionality of ADAS. However, FIR cameras have not been able to maximize their capabilities because they're located in different positions than other cameras such as in a front grille or bumper at the lower front of the vehicle, whereas other cameras are located high up in the windshield. This is because the far-infrared radiation used by FIR cameras cannot penetrate ordinary windshields. We have developed this product to address this issue by integrating a special material that transmits far-infrared rays into a part of the windshields. This allows us to integrate a visible camera and an FIR camera inside the windshields. In May of this year, the U.S. National Traffic Safety Administration released a new proposed rule that requires all new passenger vehicle to have nighttime pedestrian detection and collision avoidance capabilities, and we believe this product will function effectively as a solution to this requirement. Development of this product is being accelerated with the aim of bringing it to market in 2027. So I have just now explained the various initiatives that we will undertake to improve our performance. So after COVID and the deteriorating of the performance, ROCE in 2020 dropped to minus 3%. And from 2021 to 2022, it was 0%. However, we have implemented some initiatives, and we are seeing effects. And for this year, ROCE will improve to 9%. And by 2025, it will exceed 10% or more. And so we see this in the horizon. And so by undertaking the various initiatives that I've just explained, we would like to enhance our downside risk, at the same time, stabilize our profit and implement our ROCE. And we'll have this focus in our business operations. Now the operating profit that you see here, this is prior to the common cost application. Now allow me to move on to the mid- to long-term earnings outlook. And again, as I've mentioned earlier, for the mobility product lineup, we will understand the market demand as well as expand our footprint. And for the core business, Automotive Exterior Glass, we will no longer follow and pursue volume of units. But rather, we would like to pursue value, and that will be our policy. As you see on the bottom-left graph, the overall mobility products that account for the entire company will be increased. And as you see on the bottom-right graph, for the existing external glasses, for instance, with heat insulation, lighting and sound, we would like to expand the high functional products to a ratio of 30%. So again, through the steadfast implementation of the initiatives as well as a good product mix, we would like to realize a stable profitability structure. Now lastly, allow me to quickly explain our initiatives towards sustainability. Now within AGC Group overall, we have categorized 5 social value generation, and we are focusing on various social issues and solving these issues. Now for the Automotive Business, we are focusing on contributing to the realization of sustainable global environment and safe and comfortable urban infrastructure. And so we are providing various products, technology and services in this regard. Now for contributing to the sustainable global environment. For glass smelting and processing, we would like to reduce the GHG emission as well as also contribute to the automotive CO2 emission reduction, and we will develop products as well as evolvement of products that will allow this to happen. So for instance, for automotive CO2 emission decrease, we would like to focus on contributing to EV cars that will allow burden on airconditionings to be lightened that will lighten the car as well as the focus on heat insulation thin sheet glass that will also create a lighter car. And we will also focus on repair-use glass and then sheet glass recycling as well. Now for the safe and comfortable urban infrastructure, the light control glass as well as in-vehicle sensing radar components as well as next-generation communication antennas and pedestrian safety performance will be some areas that will contribute to the comfortable cabin space. And again, we would like to focus on the development of such products as well as expansion of sales. Now lastly, I would like to quickly explain our initiatives towards digitalization within the company, so CASE, GHG reduction as well as EV. So we are faced with major changes in the market, and we are planning to utilize digital technology to realize and accommodate these changes. So by utilizing DX, speed, cost, performance and quality will simultaneously be innovated, and we can enhance our competitiveness. So for instance, in the preparation of design and production, by utilizing digital technology, we can ramp up the speed needed for design, and that will allow us to move on to a smoother production initiation. And for cost reduction as well and optimizing the supply chain, we are seeing digital technology proving its effects. On that note, I would like to conclude. Thank you very much for your attention.

Thank you very much, Mr. Takegawa. Now we'd like to move on to question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] Now we would like to first answer a question that we have received in advance. The first question, there seems to be a big difference in the profitability between Japan, Asia and the West. Please explain why profitability in Europe and U.S. is lower? Also, do you think it is possible for them to capture the profitability in Japan and Asia? Takegawa-san, please.

First of all, depending on the regional market, there are different situations. For example, competitive, the map is different and also the price is different, including material cost and also cost structure. And at the same time, the appealing/attractive product lineups for the customer is different region by region. That is why its impact, the low profitability in the Western countries. As a result, we had to book the asset impairment loss. But we adopted a new measurement, and the Western country's profitability is improving significantly and quickly. And in the future, including Western countries, we would like to move from Volume to Value. That is a transformation of our structure. By implementing that, we think it is possible for them to catch up with Japan and Asia to be very profitable. Thank you very much.

So I'd like to move on to the next question. Does the Automotive Business need to be global? So for instance, like architecture glass, can it not suffice as a regional base business? Please share your thoughts.

That is a question that is often asked. But if I may respond to that, there is a need to have a global footprint. We are very firm about that. And so when we look at the design innovation of automobiles as well as the trends that emerge from these innovations, Western countries as well as Japan are the more advanced. And that trend disseminates to other countries, for instance, to China, to India as well as South America. However, the origin or the beginning is all starting in Europe as well as U.S. and Japan. And so inclusive of these countries that I just mentioned, the regions that I've just mentioned, starting from the design step, we have to make sure that we grasp that trend. And in a timely fashion, we need to provide that high function, high value-add and acquire that mobility demand. Now for Architectural Glass, yes, we do have some global businesses, but the markets are quite segregated by the regions. So it's slightly different, I believe, in nature. So automotive has to be global, I would like to add.

Thank you. Moving on to the next question. This is a question about Page 14. It talks about structural reform. We had a plan to reduce production capacity in Europe by 30% from -- further and -- compared to 2021. I think you did not set the deadline for achieving the 30% reduction, but when do you expect that to be completed by? Would it -- the end of the project, if you were able to reduce capacity by 30% in Europe, is there a room for further capacity reduction?

Yes. The biggest disruptive reform in Europe is a Belgium plant and German, the large assembly plant to be shut down. The works are going on smoothly, they're almost done. For the other initiatives, the way of stopping the old line, which [ further ] each plant. However, the product being produced there need to be transformed to other site. So we're not able to shut down the product or the concentrated product immediately. It takes a little time. However, Belgium and Germany, the plant were shut down and moved. Production moved to other facilities. And our reduction plan is going well. And I think maybe everything will be completed by 2025 or 2026, hopefully, 2025 -- 2024. And further reduction in Europe is not something that we are currently planning. When 30% production reduction is done, then the high functionality in Europe is the initiative that we'd like to work on. We believe that, that will be the best plan for us in Europe.

Thank you very much. I'd like to move on to the next question. This is a question regarding CapEx investment amount. So again, on the same page, Page 14, you did mention that you would like to globally expand and standardize highly functional facilities. So can we understand that the investment amount will be the same? So for this fiscal year, it was JPY 25 billion, that was the disclosed number. So will this amount continue?

At this point in time, for our CapEx and investments, when we -- in hindsight, it turns out that we are streamlining this number. In other words, we had made larger investments in the past. So for this year, yes, it was JPY 25 billion, but this is quite concentrated and streamlined. So are we going to ramp this up? No. So we will be investing, nevertheless, into highly functional facilities. So -- but at the same time, we will suppress, as much as possible, other investments, in other words, investments that do not lead to high efficiency. So we would like to continue at the same level of this year as well in terms of investment amount.

Thank you very much. Next question is regarding high functionality. This is about the presentation on Page 25, so about general-purpose product, high-value and mobility products. So what is the gap between the margins of general-purpose product and high-value mobility product? Which margins are higher between high value-added and mobility products? Takegawa-san, please.

Well, the specific gap of the margins, I would like to refrain from answering that. But compared to general-purpose products, high value-added and mobility product margins are higher to some extent. Otherwise, there is no meaning for us to go into that business. So that is the reason why we would like to develop and commercialize these products. On top of that, high value-added product and mobility product, which margin is higher, then depending on products. So I'm not able to give you a general answer for that. But mobility product, we will have an increase of lineup with the sensors, then we can expect a high profitability.

Thank you. Moving on to the next question. And Page 25, please. So for the high value-add products. For 2023 and 2024, around about this time period, what will be the ratio of such products? So recently, the general-purpose products are recovering. And so in comparison to 2022, perhaps the ratio will not rise all that much. So can you perhaps elaborate on what type of products you will see in the high value-add area that will increase in sales?

That is a very difficult question to respond to. So in 2023 and 2024, which is right now, but in comparison to 2022, there is not much of a change. But when we compare it back to 2019, the high value-add ratio is on the rise. Now having said that, we are focusing on 2030. We want to double the high value-add products. That is the plan. So we are working in accordance with this plan, and we are seeing an increase in the ratio.

Thank you. Next question, which is about Page 12 of the presentation. What is the time frame for profit improvement. Structural reforms are medium-term measures, while high functionality and high value-added products are long-term measures to improve profitability. Could you give us more details about the time frame that these products are contributing for the improvement of the profitability? We'd like to understand the time frame.

I think the feeling is depending on people. But midterm, what I -- on this page is about in maybe later part of 2020, so after 2025 and before 2030, we do have a short time result. And for the midterm product, we are seeing the good result. So I think that we can see the result between 2025 and 2029. And for the long term, maybe in the middle of 2025, gradually, we will see the result. And as a result, after 2030, I think this product will expand significantly because there are markets, including infrastructure, the market itself is going to grow and improve. So before and after 2030, this long-term business will expand. Thank you.

All right moving on. I'd like to move on to Page 13 of the presentation slide. And so this is about the pricing policy. So starting from last year, I do believe that you've progressed to an extent with the pricing changes. And in some regions, a double-digit increase has actually been applied. But in the automotive industry, I do not think that we can imagine any more price increases. And so Page 13, out of the 3 items, you mentioned the raw material prices and fuel prices are increasing and also semiconductor shortages have been pretty much mitigated, but perhaps there will be pressure to decrease prices.

I see. So because of raw material costs rising and applying a higher pricing policy does have a limit. So for the fuel and the raw material prices, once it is stabilized, and the semiconductor shortages, once that is mitigated, then can we raise prices further? That will prove to be extremely difficult. However, we have no intent to bring the prices down as a result. And we will offset that with providing more and more value-add products that will give us an optimal price line, which we think is most critical. So it is just -- it was just an immediate action to raise the prices to accommodate the hiking prices of costs, but the ultimate goal is to optimize the entire price or price line. And so we believe that can fuel more of our focus for high value-add products. Now for the future, the model productivity also has to be considered when we also consider our product mix. And this is not just for the OEMs, but for the repair glass or the repair use glass as well. We also have to balance out an optimal price line for such products as well. So in any case, this we realize is something that not just AGC alone can do because, obviously, we have transaction partners. And so the necessary price, we have to be persistent in explaining this carefully and seek the understanding of our customers. Thank you.

Next question is about Page 24 of the presentation. There is the ROCE. So please explain the range of improvement of ROCE from each following factors: the improvement in the product -- the improvement from minus 3% of year 2020 to 9% of 2023. So we'd like to understand the reasons. So first reason is an improvement in product mix toward high value-added products. Second is the effect of price increase. The third is cost reductions and productivity improvement.

Actually, it is very difficult to disclose the specific numbers, please understand that. But last year -- from fourth quarter of last year to the beginning of this year, yes, it is true that the positive impact by price increase was made, then volume improvement, automotive, the production volume increase. So the first half, the price increase and volume improvement. Then on top of that, effect -- measures like the cost reduction and improvement of the productivity impacted in the second half. Finally, the major structural reforms such as structural reform in Europe, adding another positivities in the second half. So ROCE is improving by these factors. And high value-added products, mix improvement, as I said earlier, that improvement has started, but we're not really seeing the big impact yet because that is the -- that takes time. I think we should look at the improvement in the mid- to long-term range so that this high value-added is going to contribute to even further improve ROCE. Thank you.

So moving on to the next question. So as of now, the ROCE, 9% is where you stand, and I believe you mentioned that your goal is 10%. But I think that you are very close to this goal. Now having said that, ROCE 9%, your operating profit is 3.6%, so it is not all that high. So operating profit 4%, is this enough? So the Western country profitability, if you improve it to the extent of Japan and Asia, then what will be the expected ROCE as a result of that improvement?

So for the C -- ROCE, 9%, yes, and that has been our goal. Now in today's material, the 2025 and onwards, 10% is in the horizon, as I mentioned, and that is something that we will work towards. But obviously, we do not think that this is the final landing point. Just because we approach 10%, will this business be sustainable? Not necessarily, which means that we need to bring it up to 12%, 13%, 14%, 15%, respectively, which means that we can no longer pursue volume, but we need to pursue value. We need that business transformation, and we want to be the front runner in this transform, which will allow us to create a sustainable business.

Thank you very much. Now next question about automobile Vision 2030 -- actually, what is the profit margin -- appropriate profit margin for automotive? And mobility product expansion, like the automotive window, I understand that the profitability is improving. But in terms of capacity, do you think that there is room for improvement for the capacity for the window glass for the automobile?

Well, appropriate or ideal OP margin, of course, that really is different by product mix. I don't think that a high ROS is the only goal that we should pursue. I don't think so. So it's very difficult for us to say that this is the number that you have to hit, we have to aim at. But the current number is not high. So I would like to make sure that, that number will improve. In terms of mobility, expansion mobility actually will pull up ROS, for sure. But more than ROS, ROCE will improve when mobility expands. So window glass products capital investment, compared to that, mobility CapEx is lower than that. So we can consider capital efficiency. Mobility business is asset-light business, so ROCE will improve more than ROS.

Thank you. Now moving on to the next question. So 2025, this is midterm, the automotive industry OP, what is the expected forecast around this period?

So I do have to apologize because for this question, I would like to refrain from answering. But 2025, that is 2 years' time, it will be a stronger positive profitability in comparison to now, and that is the plan that we are propelling forward. However, the actual numbers as well as figures, I would like to refrain from mentioning. Thank you.

Thank you very much, next question about the sunroof, which is large. And I think the technical difficulty is high. Compared to front-side rear glasses, compared to them, do you think that competitive map will change for sunroof?

Yes, it changes. Sunroof compared actually to normal sunroof, they are made with the enforced glass. So the difficulty was not such high. However, a panoramic roof in the large side with the combined glasses, we really don't see a lot of competitors. It's a multiple glass combined to make it larger. And even AGC, we have to be selective in terms of production and development. So we have to make sure that we will be a winner among very few number of competitors. Thank you.

Moving on to the next question. For this fiscal year, I do believe that you have been able to improve greatly your profitability because of price increases. But in terms of long-term stability of profitability, how do you think that the automotive glass prices will evolve? Will it become formula base in the future?

The possibility of it becoming formula base, yes, there is a high possibility. And some of the OEMs or customers are contracting using a formula base. But regardless of whether it is or is not formula base, the base of this formula base will be elevated. In other words, it will be a level where it is a win-win situation and the pricing will allow a win-win situation. And then from there onwards, users want high value and high functions and so that will allow us to perhaps increase the prices, but the market has to acknowledge that and accept that. In other words, the value has to be equivalent to the monetary value that the customers are willing to pay. So the base price will still -- will be elevated. We'll maintain that, but we'll add on to that through value-add.

Thank you very much. So the next question is about price strategy. Allow me to review that. So based on the previous answer, there is no price reduction, but you maintain the price. So in principle, is it okay to understand that additional price increase is difficult for you to conduct?

Well, no, it's not like additional price increases are difficult. We have to think about appropriate price. Of course, the inflation continues, the material or fuel price go up and human resource cost, labor cost will go up, then we will continue the negotiation to increase the price. However, that price increase has to have a rationale. I think current price is appropriate. So maintaining the current price and upon necessity, we will do additional price increases, if it's necessary. And for the high-functionality products, all in all, we will like to increase the price as a whole for us to have a sustainable business.

So the next question. So depending on the climate, there are different conditions. But for instance, the infrared cut glass as well as the lighting glass, by implementing such types of glass, how do you think you can extend the cruise range of EVs?

A concrete number, I will refrain from disclosing because we are still in the experimental stage. But again, obviously, depending on the climate, it will differ. So in extreme heat or extreme cold weather, extending that cruise range is possible. And inclusive of scientific trials and validation, we can say this with certainty. Now for the lighting glasses as well as the heat insulation glass, we can extend the cruise. But for the infrared light or anti-infrared light glass, it's not about extending the cruise, but rather, it's about enhancing the safety, especially during the nighttime. So that is the main focus. So I did mention that in the U.S., the Safety Bureau guidelines have slated that during the nighttime, you have to secure the safety of the pedestrians. And there is a stronger demand to fulfill that criteria. So aside from the cruise range, we believe that it will contribute to that.

Thank you. We -- there's only one question remaining. [Operator Instructions] So the next question is what is your image of expansion of the capacity for the mobility? Do you think that the current capacity can achieve your sales target in 2025, please?

Current capacity, can we achieve 2025 sales target? Yes, we believe we can do that. But again, upon necessity, there is a possibility that we might need to make an investment. However, we already made a CapEx and for sure that we are improving productivity, particularly onboard the automotive glass. And we believe that we can achieve the sales target of 2025.

Thank you very much. Now there is an add-on question in terms of pricing. So based on your response, there's a confirmation. So can we understand that this is an optimal price range? And from here onwards, any type of price increase is a result of adding value, so it is not or no longer an apple-to-apple price range. And is that understanding correct?

So I think that when I say price, you may think of just the ultimate price, but obviously, there are many components or elements to it. For instance, raw material, fuel as well as with the lack of semiconductors. Then there was a drop in the automotive production. And obviously, that peaked the prices as well as because of inflation, there is a hike in labor costs. So there are many elements that are mixed in. So what I'm describing right now is that for European region, the energy fuel prices in Europe, it has reached, to an extent, a plateau and the product prices are more or less stable. So we are no longer going to increase prices because of fuel price hikes. But for instance, when we look at the world, inflation still continues and fuel prices are increasing as well in other countries. But once we see a plateau or a stable state, then we believe that, that will be the time to stop. In other words, reflecting the fuel price hike into the prices. But we're not doing it aimlessly, it is a necessity. Thank you.

Thank you very much. We have answered all the questions that we have received. So we only have a few minutes, so we would like to conclude the question-and-answer session.

I think I gave you a wrong answer about far-infrared. I misunderstood, that's an infrared cut glass. Actually, EV driving range can be longer because EV power consumption can be reduced. So the UV cut glass can contribute to that. Thank you. I'm sorry that I made a mistake.

All right, so on that note, we would like to conclude the Q&A session. So we would like to thank you for your participation despite your busy schedule. And this will conclude the Automotive Business session. And once you close the Zoom screen, you will jump to the survey. You can respond in about 1 minute. So we encourage you to fill in that survey. And it will be useful for future sessions. If you do have follow-up questions, please use the following telephone line 03, that is for Tokyo, 3218-5096. Thank you very much for your kind attendance. [Statements in English on this transcript were spoken by an interpreter present on the live call.]