Ahluwalia Contracts (India) Limited (532811) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Ahluwalia Contracts (India) Limited Q3 FY '22 Post Results Analyst Conference Call hosted by AMBIT Capital Private Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to the management of Ahluwalia Contracts (India) Limited. Thank you, and over to you all.

Good afternoon. This is Shobhit Uppal. Thank you all for joining us. We have announced our financial results for Q3 FY '22. During Q3 FY '22, the company has achieved a turnover of INR 683.50 crores and a PAT of INR 42.33 crores in comparison to a turnover of INR 536.13 crores and a PAT of INR 14.72 crores in Q3 FY '21. EPS of the company for Q3 FY '22 is INR 6.32 as compared to INR 2.20 in Q3 FY '21. During the Q3 FY '22, the company's EBITDA margin is 10.89% as compared to 6.80%; PAT margin of 6.19% as compared to 2.75% in the corresponding period of last financial year. During the 9 months ended on 31st December '21, the company has achieved a turnover of INR 1,961.60 crores and a PAT of INR 112.91 crores, in comparison to a turnover of INR 1,220.49 crores and a PAT of INR 40.17 crores in the 9 months ended on 31st December '20. EPS of the company for 9 months ended on 31 December '21 is INR 16.85 as compared to INR 6 in the corresponding 9 months of the last financial year. During 9 months ended on 31st December '21, the company's EBITDA margin was 10.75% as compared to 8.46%. PAT margin is 5.76% as compared to 3.29% in the corresponding 9 months of the last financial year. Net order book of the company as on 31st December 2021, stood at 6,662 crores to be executed in the next 2 to 2.5 years. Total order inflow during 9 months ended on 31st December '21 is 1,267 crores. Thank you. Those are our opening remarks. We are open for questions now.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Vibhor Singhal from PhillipCapital.

And congrats on very strong execution yet again. I think the last 3, 4 quarters have been really strong for us in terms of execution. So sir, just wanted to basically ask two questions. One is, in this quarter, we did a top line of almost the same as the last quarter. Generally, second quarter is impacted by monsoon, while we did very well this quarter in terms of a 28% Y-on-Y growth. Was there some impact of monsoons or some of the external factors because of which the execution was maybe lower than what we and maybe you were also expecting? And could that also spill over to the next quarter?

Look, our execution or our output is on line with what we had projected. So we are not disappointed. Yes, NGT ban affected the working in and around NCR for about a month or so. But that now is an annual feature, and we had expected that. Otherwise, the supply chain has been affected, though projects continue. The third wave did affect the supply chain. But our execution output is more or less on expected lines.

Sure, sir. And just since you touched upon the third wave impacting the supply chain, so have we seen any impact in the first 45 days of execution in Q4? Or do you think it should be, again, a good strong quarter for us again?

No, the quarter would be strong. But yes, as I said, the headwinds are there, while the work has continued, but -- and things are improving, but the supply chain is affected as can be seen from the volatility in the prices of the raw materials.

Got it, got it. And sir, our margins also were quite stable at around 10% despite, as we mentioned, about the very sharp jump in all the cost for raw material prices. Do you believe we should be able to take the margin back to our historical levels of around 12%, 13% in the next couple of quarters? Or do you think it's going to be sometime before we reach those levels?

So I had mentioned in the last call 3 months ago that in the coming financial year, we are expecting to take it back to those levels.

Okay. So next year, we should probably expect in a similar kind of range as we have been doing those years?

Yes.

Wow. Got it. Got it. The last question is on the order book. Our order book, while at -- quite strong at around 6,600 crores as you mentioned, but I think the order inflow this year has been around, around 200 crores quite -- I mean, significantly lower than what we have come to expect from you, given the very strong order inflow in FY '21. So anything that you would want to maybe call out on that part that because of which we -- I mean, is there more competition? Or are you expecting some lumpy orders to come in the next few months?

Vibhor, this is also, if I may say, by design. I had mentioned again, I'm repeating in the last call and by various interactions with all of you or some of your colleagues that there has been intense competition. And we deliberately -- while we continue to bid, but we are not throwing caution to the winds. We deliberately are being conservative. And that's why since our -- we are well stocked in terms of our order book, we are deliberately being cautious, and we are not bidding indiscriminately.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Ashish Shah from Centrum Broking.

Sir, the first thing is can you just talk a little bit about the overall working capital situation in terms of number of days, where it stands? And our historical, some pockets of problems like West Bengal, Bihar, et cetera, how are we at this moment?

So I'll answer your second question first. The historical problematic projects, so to say, they're no longer problematic. Our projects in West Bengal, the auditorium project from the Milan Mela project, which primarily are the projects with the state government, they are well underway and nearing completion. The auditorium will be completed in September. And the state government is now releasing funds for that. The Milan Mela is slated for inauguration in March or first week of April. As far as Bihar is concerned, our projects now, the 2 hospitals, are now moving successfully, and we are looking at targeted completion end of this year for both the hospital projects. The large project, the INR 890 crores animal husbandry project, the veterinary college and animal husbandry project, that we had said last time also, is awaiting environment clearance and it's slated -- was projected to begin in April, and that is still so. The first meeting of the environmental committee has happened. And in the second meeting, the clearance is expected to be granted. As far as the working capital cycle is concerned, Satbeer will take that question. Satbeer, go ahead.

One thing that [ though -- ] cycle is around 89 days ...

I can't hear you very well, sir, if you can just speak a little louder.

Hello? Can you hear me?

Yes, yes.

The working capital cycle is 89 days.

Okay. And our gross debt will be 0, right? I mean, almost negligible?

Yes.

And the cash position, if you may?

Cash position.

Cash position, INR 172 crores.

INR 172 crores. And on mobilization advances?

INR 320 crores.

INR 320 crores. Okay. Just last question...

[indiscernible] 217.

217. Okay. Just lastly, what is the status of the Sion Hospital which we got and the Tata Hospital as well? When are we likely to commence what in those projects? What is the overall position, if you can please highlight?

The Tata Hospital, the approval, it's gone for approval to the Central Ministry, the Board of Bhabha Atomic Research and Energy Centers, they've recommended it and it's gone to the Central Ministry for approval. As far as the Sion Hospital is concerned, the construction is underway.

Okay. Sure. So how much is done approximately? I mean, did we start in Q3?

Yes, we started in Q3. At the moment, about 10% is done.

The next question is from the line of Parvez Akhtar Qazi from Edelweiss Securities.

And congratulations for a good set of numbers. So first, with respect to [indiscernible], I mean, obviously, there is going to be some impact, as you already highlighted. So based on whatever has happened until now, do we expect that we'll be able to match at least Q3 execution in Q4? Or it can be lower than what we have been in Q3?

We should be able to cross a turnover of INR 2,500 crores, if that answers your question.

Sure. Sure. And with regards to FY '23, what is the kind of growth that we are now targeting?

20%.

Okay. 20%. Also with respect to bidding for -- intensity, you have been highlighting for the past couple of quarters that it has an impact. So has there been any change in bidding or it continues to be intensive? And in light of that, what pace the [indiscernible] order intake that we could see going there?

We are targeting an order inflow in the next financial year of about INR 2,000 crores to INR 2,500 crores. As I had mentioned last time, the intensity will continue to be high. It continues to be high and will continue to be high, at least till the first half of the next financial year. But what we are seeing is that the large-scale projects of larger magnitude, the number is increasing, right? We're bidding for 2 projects. The tenders are underway, which are in excess of INR 1,500 crores. So -- and then we're bidding for about 5, 6 projects, which are between INR 500 crores to INR 800 crores. So such orders now are increasing, if you understand what I'm saying, right? So competition in such orders is expected to be lesser.

We'll move on to the next question, that is from the line of Rajat from ithought.

I just wanted to understand, are we taking any issues when it comes to payments from the government or otherwise private clients?

As you know, nearly 85% of our order book is with the government. And out of that, nearly 50% is health care. So on those projects, we are not facing any problem. As far as the private sector is concerned, most of our clients are clients with whom we've had a long relationship. So there also, there are no major problems.

Okay. So basically, no payment issues so far we are facing? No issues we're facing there?

At the moment, no.

Okay. Got it. And sir, on the raw material side, just to understand, I mean, have we moved to -- what kind of fixed price orders do we have? I mean what percentage of the total of the book do we have as fixed price order book right now?

I think about 15% of our order book is fixed price.

So just to understand this impact from rising raw material cost now, which everybody is facing now. So do we -- are we also facing the need in that part of the order book? Or we are -- how is it?

No. In that part of the order book, so definitely, we are facing the impact. In some of the other order book also, while cement and steel price is governed by -- for price escalation is governed by indices for cement and steel, so that over the long term, kind of balances out. But the other escalations are covered by WTI, which we are finding that the increase is not commensurate with the increase in the prices of those raw materials like aluminum, copper, so on and so forth. So there, yes, in the short term, we are expected -- we are expecting to taper it.

Okay. All right. And sir, what led to the decline in other operating expenditure in quarter 3? I think the number came to INR 6 crores from INR 16, INR 17 crores last quarter?

Now repeat the question, you're saying the decline?

The decline in other expenses.

This last quarter, we have made a provision of -- for the CSR expenses [indiscernible].

Payments.

The CSR payments, that is around the [ Q4 ]. And because of that is the amount of the excess with the INR 3.5 crores, that has been less in this quarter.

Okay, it has been written back. You are saying that?

[indiscernible]

Sorry. I couldn't -- did you say yes?

So that, since we utilize funds in excess of what we were required to do, that we have written back.

Understood. Understood. And sir, how is the pipeline -- order pipeline for the hospital side at the moment?

At the moment, our order book, the pipeline going -- the pipeline is about 2,500 crores, the hospitals are about 1,000 crores.

Okay. Understood. And sir, are we seeing any traction in the private side now? That is my last question. Are you seeing any traction in the private side?

Yes, we are, but our industry -- as an industry, yes, but we are very varied. We continue to be varied. But yes, on the private side, for industrial construction, we are seeing green shoots, and that is something that we will be focused on going forward.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Shravan Shah from Dolat Capital Markets.

And congratulations for a good set of numbers. Yes, sir, coming to the revenue front, you said in excess of INR 2,500 crores for FY '22. So if I do the math, then it comes only INR 538 crores for fourth quarter, which is significantly lower than the last time INR 761 crores, and this quarter, INR 683 crores. So just trying to further understand how much -- can we see a flattish or decline or some growth in the fourth quarter Y-o-Y?

No, no. I said excess of INR 2,500 crores. INR 2,500 crores is the projection that I had given last time. So it will be well in excess of that.

Okay. And then next year, you said it would be a 20% growth we are looking at?

Yes.

And I mean, whatever the pressure you said on the input cost, despite that, we can see a 12% kind of EBITDA margin next year?

Yes. Because we have already -- in the large projects that we are doing, we have already bundled the orders, where materials -- where the prices have been exceptionally volatile are used, okay? So -- and the further orders that we are expecting to get should cover -- the prices should also stabilize. The increase would not -- even if the increase is there, it will -- those price increase would not be as volatile as it has been in this year. So we are expecting, yes, that we will get back to 12% margins.

Okay. And now on the order inflow, so are we L1-ing any of the orders? And how much we can add in next 1.5 months?

Hopefully, we are hoping that this order in which we are L1, we are L1 in 1 order, which is the startup. It's about INR 715 crores. This should come in before the year closes.

Okay. And nothing other than that we have we bidded where we can see some inflow, can come [ save our ] margin?

We have bid for 3 other large projects, which aggregate about INR 2,000 crores. But it's difficult to say as of now whether they will be awarded before the close of the financial year.

So -- and these INR 2,000 crores 3 projects would be in NCR and in your hospital segment?

One is in hospital segment, all 3 are residential, 2 are in NCR and 1 is in Jaipur. One is hospital, the 1 in Jaipur is a hospital.

Okay. Okay. Got it. Sir, I need a couple of data points, particularly order book pick up by segment, region and government, private?

Satbeer will provide them to you. Yes.

Public, sector-wise, government is 85%, and private is 15%. And segment-wise, this is commercial, 4.83% ; hospital, 44%; infrastructure, 12.26%; [indiscernible] residential, 17.43%; and [ water , ] is 1.03%.

Sir, could you repeat the last 2 one again? So 12.61%, post that [ calculating part, if you could. ]

Infrastructure, 12.26%; institutional, 20.44%; residential, 17.43%; and [ water ] is 1.03%.

And in terms of the core benefit mobilization advance you said INR 270 crores -- how much is retention and unbilled revenue, sir?

Yes, hold on. So retention is INR 196 crores. Total [ debt is to ] the [ sized retention ] is 490 crores. Total 687 crores. And [indiscernible] 251 crores. Unbilled, 327 crores.

Sorry, unbilled is how much?

Unbilled, only 327 crores.

377 crores?

327 crores.

327 crores. Okay. INR 327 crores. And how much is payable, sir?

It's around [ 630 crores ].

And CapEx, how much we have done and how much left for the fourth quarter?

Pardon?

CapEx. CapEx.

Yes. CapEx, how much we've done in 9 months? And how much left for the fourth quarter?

CapEx for 9 months was [ 19.70 lakhs ]. And [indiscernible] 4.56 crores.

Sorry, INR 4.56 crores to be spent in the fourth quarter?

No, no. He's saying INR 4.56 crores has been spent. Out of INR 19 crores, INR 4.56 crores has been spent in the third quarter. And in the fourth quarter, it is likely to be about INR 2 crores.

INR 2 crores. So sir, even in the next year also, the range will remain the INR 30 crores, INR 40 crores, INR 50 crores, the CapEx?

No, it should be about same. So we are looking at about INR 21 crores, INR 22 crores this year. It will be in the same range.

Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. And the working capital days, as you mentioned that now in terms of the payment from the West Bengal government, no issues as such? So I should -- can we see some improvement in the working capital days by March end?

Yes. Not by March end, but in the next financial year, definitely. I think with the pandemic behind us, the working normality should start happening as far as the financials of various state governments is concerned.

Okay. Okay. And sir, you also mentioned about some big tenders, so 20,500 -- so apart from INR 2,000 crores that you said you bidded and then INR 2,500 crores is the bid pipeline. So apart from that, anything that you want to highlight in terms of the orders that we can look at in the next 6 months, 9 months?

So I don't want to go for obvious reasons -- I do not want to go into specific detail. I've already given you broad numbers and the scale of the jobs that we are interested in bidding for.

The next question is from the line of Parikshit Kandpal from HDFC Securities.

Congratulations on a good quarter. Sir, my first question is on the total order inflow financial year to date and how much is the total order backlog?

Your voice is a little blurred. Could you -- you're a little reverberating, could you repeat the question?

I'm asking what is the total order inflows for the financial year to date? And what is the total order backlog?

So the net order backlog, 762 -- INR 6,662 crores and order inflow till date is INR 1,267 crores in this financial year.

So another 700 crores [indiscernible] would come, then we'll close at year end at about INR 2,000 crores?

Yes.

That includes [indiscernible].

Yes.

My question is now we are on a very high base and the [ INR 2,000 crores to INR 2,500 crores ] -- upward of INR 2,500 crores and next year, projecting 20% growth. So historically we've been taking INR 2,000 crores, INR 2,500 crores orders. So from the growth perspective, we need to now ramp up these inflows and otherwise not able to grow at 10%, 15%. So any strength -- any views there? I mean, for the years ahead, can the order inflows be much higher than the INR 2,000 crores to INR 2,500 crores number you are guiding? [indiscernible] base.

No. So generally, our -- with our track record and what we project and what we plan, we always aim to replenish what we -- the kind of revenue or top line we see. That quantum we should replenish, right? So this year, we should close at about INR 2,000 crores. We've deliberately been conservative, as I said, keeping the competitive intensity in mind. We didn't want to be indiscriminate and we were well stocked up. So next year, as I said in one of the earlier comments in this call, that we are targeting about INR 2,500 crores, INR 2,000 crores to INR 2,500 crores. And then hopefully, in the following 2 years, it should go up significantly. It should go up INR 3,000 crores.

Got it. The second question is, Satbeer, if you can give a breakup of the order book region-wise last [indiscernible]

What did you ask me?

Region-wise order book.

Region wise. [ Regionally, ] East, 43.69%; North 37.25%; and West, 18.32%; South 0.75%.

So again, the subject of my question was on south. So earlier in the call, you did touch about that, there are 3 projects. So you're looking at 2 residential projects currently in NCR. So just...

One is a residential project, one is a commercial project and one is a hospital in Jaipur.

Okay. So from my viewpoint, the south market continues to be the best-performing residential market, so where we have negligible presence. So -- and everyone is talking about real estate up cycle, and there are -- [ even ] developers are gaining market share. So again, my question here is, are you looking to increase our exposure in the south market? Are we increasing our business development activity, bidding activity there? So because you are an old player in this segment and there is really lack of quality players in the building segment of your size and execution capability with a strong balance sheet. So any reworking, any rethoughts on the bidding on the private real estate in south?

Yes. Two parts to your question. One part, whether we have revived or we are increasing our business development activities in the southern part of the country. Yes, we are. We -- in the -- a month ago, we bid for the AIIMS -- bidding of the project in Hyderabad. These were not L1, but that tender has since been canceled, and we are going to bid again, progressively. But the second part of your question, whether we are going to be focused on targeting private real estate developers in the southern part of the country? In the short term of the next 6 months, no. We want this part of the private sector to stabilize further. We want to bide our time and then decide who we will work with as far as the private real estate developers are concerned. This is purely based on our experience and experience of our contemporary -- with developers in the past 5, 7 years. So we are being cautious.

Basically, government bidding will continue and you will try to ramp it up when the orders come in? Private, you will wait and watch until things stabilize?

Yes. Yes.

Okay. And just lastly on the margin, you said next year will return to about 12%. So that would be something like a peak margin for us? Or there still you believe there is some more headroom that we can go between 12% to 13%, given the current state of commodity prices? Can you give some color there?

Look, next year, it will be about 12%. I think the peak margins if memory serves me right, we have crossed 13% at one point in time. Ultimately, yes, the aspiration is to get there. But next year, let me stay with the projection that I've given earlier.

Okay. Okay. And the bulk terminal project, any thoughts on monetizing rate or continue that?

Could you just repeat that, please?

The bulk terminal project that is...

[indiscernible]

Yes. So any thoughts on monetizing it or continuing with the trends there? Like what is the problem [indiscernible]

[indiscernible] We see it continuing. The market scenario being what it is due to the pandemic,.yes, ultimately, we would want to monetize it, but the response has not been up to our expectations. So yes, we will continue. I think in the short term, we will continue the way we are. But let me then to -- during December, that mall has hit the highest footfall, especially at the time between Christmas and New Year. That mall hit the highest footfall that it has ever seen. So things are improving, and that's why maybe the monetization, it may happen in the next year to 2 years.

Just last thing, you had some residential inventory which we have taken over. There were payments plus we have some raw land lying in [ certain ] part of country and some other places. Any thoughts, if you can quantify what is the total residential inventory line with us? And then thoughts on monetization of residential inventory and the land bank which we have?

Residential inventory is [ 238.90 crores. ]

38.9 crores, sir?

[ 90 ]

And we are looking to -- by and by, we are disposing this off. We are looking to dispose this off.

Any disposal in this quarter, too, quarter 3 ?

In this quarter? There has been no disposal. No.

And what about the land bank, which we have like the [indiscernible] raw land which you have in the company?

There is 1 raw land, large chunk of land, which we have in Kolkata. We are looking to get the land use changed and then monetize it, either we will develop it or if we get a good price, the first priority would be to dispose it off. But that has now become a very prime chunk of land, because we have metro development, we have a station coming there. There is a mall -- a station is already there now, and there's a mall next to it. So it is actually in the heart of the city now.

Where is it -- its location and how many acres?

This is totally about 4.7 acres, and it is near the Hiland Park development, the Hiland Mall. It's only -- it's a metropolitan bypass.

And what is the market value? Are you saying we have [indiscernible]

Frankly speaking, at the moment, I will not be able to answer for the value to that.

Sir, what kind of development do you look at? Because you say [indiscernible] in the market [indiscernible].

It would be primarily a residential development, if at all we go that route.

Is it like we're trying to not get into real estate? [indiscernible] or is this just one-off?

No, no, no, not at all. We are not trying to get into real estate, what -- how so ever we can best leverage this piece of land, we will do it and get returns on that.

Will this be one-off projects [indiscernible]

Yes. Yes. We have no intention of becoming a developer.

The next question is from the line of Jiten Rushi from Axis Capital.

Congratulations on a good set of numbers. Sir, I just want to understand the [ extent of recent ] opportunities. So going forward, what kind of opportunity we see and where are you qualified to bid for these projects? And what is the time line where you can expect the awarding to happen?

So look, there is one tender which has come out of -- to Central Vista, of which prequalification has been done. There are 4 companies qualified, which is Larsen & Toubro, Tata Projects, Nagarjuna and Ahluwalia Contracts. This tender is due for bidding in the last week of March. We will definitely bid, but again, seeing how aggressively the likes of L&T and Tata have bid, and our experience with the first projects which we successfully handed over, margins were muted for obvious reasons. So I don't know. We will not bid aggressively. So that is the first -- that is the next Central Vista project. After this, I think the next project will come out in about 5 to 6 months' time.

So basically, this is for the -- just on which part of the Central Vista is the project which you'll bid for?

This is the executive enclave, which will house the prime minister's office and residence.

Prime minister's office. Right. Right. And sir, I also want some closing order backlog for Q3. See if I may ask -- can you just, for this Bihar project, the Chapra and the Nalanda, what is the outstanding order backlog?

You have the [indiscernible]?

Yes.

Sir, is it...

Yes, Satbeer is just going to give them to you.

Which?

Bihar, Chapra.

Okay. Bihar...

And Nalanda.

Chapra is [indiscernible] was [ 226 crores ] out of [indiscernible] crores.

Nalanda?

Nalanda, this is 172 crores against a total order book, INR 383 crores.

And then J&K AIIMS?

J&K AIIMS. J&K AIIMS. Jammu AIIMS.

Jammu AIIMS, sorry.

This is 1,017 crores against 1,254 crores.

And on [indiscernible] 250-bed hospital, specialty hospital in Hamirpur and the Sion hospital, then the MMRDA -- the Mandale Depot Architectural project -- and the other area - the construction of high-rise complex in Bhubaneshwar. So can you share the same, sir?

Hamirpur, 243 crores against 323 crores.

243 crores, okay.

Sion is approximately, this is 519 crores and against 533 crores.

And MMRDA project, Mandalay Depot?

MMRDA versus 474 crores, against 534 crores.

And this...

[indiscernible]

That one is 298 crores against [ 390 crores. ]

298 crores. Okay. And sir, any other project, large project, which is missing? Because sir, the problem is we don't have the order backlog figures for the last couple of quarters, 3 quarters, where the presentation were not available. So if you can...

We will make these presentations available to you now. Our IR team will -- if you could reach out to Satbeer. And then we will have a dedicated IR contact person alongside Satbeer, who will now start interacting with all of you again.

So this [indiscernible] they are -- is still the same? Yes, so there is no change in that figure right?

But I think if you heard my earlier comments...

Yes, yes. You have said, yes I heard. [indiscernible] assume the Infosys campus project and the Kolkata [indiscernible]

Infosys has started. It is underway. In fact, that order value has been -- in fact, they're increasing their area a bit. And let me just also clarify on the [ Zed 1 ] project. [ Zed 1 ] project, their approvals were stalled. But last month, their approvals came. So now that project has also started with full intensity.

Okay. And so the Infosys, what would be the [indiscernible] a very small 58 crores, 59 crores project, but in your side would be...

At the moment, the order value now would be about, I think, INR 65 crores.

And the Kolkata affordable housing project [indiscernible] what is the status on that?

That also, the notice to proceed, we have received 15 days ago, because they did not have airport clearance from AAI because that [ isn't rather hard and ] it was in that funnel. So that also, they've got 15 days ago, and that project has now started to be broken ground.

That is still 229 crores [indiscernible]

Yes. Right, right.

So in terms of now, sir, as you said, the collection efficiencies improve, our working capital still remain expected to remain high. So sir, how are we trying to bring down the [ utilization ] and what kind of measures we have taken to improve utilization efficiency and bring down the working capital going forward, which you said in [ FY '23 ] likely to happen? So what measures are we expected to take now? Or just a normal course of business?

Look, we've tightened our belt, we started this 2 years ago when we [ finally checked ]. So we want to continue with the same. It's not that we're going to become lax. And as I said, 45% of our order book is health care where -- and government. So the client, there seems to be no paucity of fund. So all we have to do is execute, execute with efficiency, and the funding will happen because the central government as well as the state government where they're doing these projects, they are extremely keen on -- for political reasons as well as for obvious reasons because the pandemic and whatever has transpired in the last 2 years, they want these projects to be up and running, right?

So also, we can see the collection is improved now as the project has been started?

Yes. What has happened in Bihar and Bengal and as I said, the government are coming out of it because the pandemic is waning. There, the treasury, there -- the state government has directed the treasury to focus on -- focus the funding on corona fighting measures, right? That is why now -- that is behind us. We know it for a fact now. As I said, for the auditorium project, Milan Mela project, the last month, we've seen the money started rolling in, which shows the focus of the government here have now shifted back to other development activities.

Sir, can we assume that you can win more projects from NBCC going forward? Or in the West Bengal, in Kolkata, things have improved now? Any thoughts on that? Just thought I want to know, because you were doing a lot of NBCC projects in the past also.

Yes, we were doing -- and over the last 8 to 9 months, we had deliberately stopped bidding aggressively for NBCC projects. Now one of the projects that -- the residential project that I mentioned is a NBCC project, it's a large project, yes, [indiscernible]. So we were in talk with NBCC top management. We wanted certain changes in the commercial conditions. They have been kind enough to accommodate us. It will -- was only us -- other large bidders also wanted that. So we, going forward, are going to bid for NBCC projects. And as far as Kolkata is concerned, as far as Kolkata or Bengal is concerned, I don't think there are any large NBCC projects coming there. But we see renewed activity from the state government for health care projects and other institutional projects there.

Okay. So basically Jaipur is an AIIMs project, if I may [indiscernible]

It's not an AIIMs project. It's a SMS hospital, Sawai Man Singh Hospital. It's a government hospital. The state PWD has called the tenders and there have been 4 bids.

And this 1 commercial project, which you said is also a government project? Or -- which you are planning...

You can call it a semi-government project. I'll tell you, it's the India Expo Mart, which we had constructed, it's in Greater Noida, where -- it's a convention center and an expo mart, which we had built many, many years ago. They're coming up with an expansion. So there are 3 bids to my knowledge, which has been received. So 3 large ones -- L&T [indiscernible], Nagarjuna, Shapoorji and us. So yes, that -- we don't know the status of that bid, because in all probability, they will open it privately.

So these are all -- this will be more of a competitive intensity, and that's challenging -- that challenge will remain like for [indiscernible]

That challenge will remain. But hopefully, as there are 3 large bidders, so the intensity -- we expect -- and we have seen also now at least in the top 4, 5 companies, there is -- there seems to be greater discipline.

We'll move on to the next question that is from the line of Prem Khurana from Anand Rathi.

Congratulations, very good numbers. Most of my questions have already been answered, so just clarifications mostly from my side. So given the [ time eventually, ] when you spoke about Kolkata, I think you said you could also look at development on the land parcel. I mean if you could clarify, I mean when you say, I mean, you're planning to do a development, and would you like to do it on your own? Or you could also consider a JV and so that your scope is only kind of providing the land and the marketing or other part -- other stuff that is kind of required to kind of real estate project have -- would be with a partner because they would be more kind of keen to the way real estate operates?

Prem, all the options are open. As I said, whatever gives maximum return, whatever model gives maximum returns to us, we will follow that. Our first preference would still be to dispose of the land and get the money back into our balance sheet. But it all depends on the kind of returns that whichever model gives us the most. We are open for tying up with a local developer. We worked with most of them. And the last option would -- can still be just developing because construction expertise exists, just developing the land and then marketing it ourselves. This is the last [indiscernible].

Sure. And sir, on this Jammu AIIMS, I think initially, we were facing some issues and tried moving good, like how is the status now? I mean is it moving good or [indiscernible] [ score ] in terms of revenue, it could move even better?

Yes, it can -- it's picked up speed, but it will -- we expect it to move even better in the next term. Starting March, we expect it to pick up further speed.

And any comment on the monthly billing run rate that you're expecting? And what is it now? And where do you see it going, I mean, let's say, in FY '22?

Specifically at AIIMS?

Yes, at AIIMS.

So we are doing a billing of about 30 crores, and we expect it to be ramped up in the next financial year to about 45 crores to 50 crores.

Okay. And Satbeer, just one clarification. I think you said cash balance is around INR 170-odd crores. But when I look at our balance sheet for, let's say, Q2 end or September end, cash and bank together was almost around 345. So how do we explain this drop? Or is it only in the cash number that is given as the bank balances [ asset? ]

Is this cash and bank balance? [indiscernible]

Yes, yes.

This is 172 crores as on 31st December.

Okay. So this is only cash, right? Because when I look at the first half balance sheet, cash and bank balance put together was almost around 345. So I'm not sure how this -- I mean when you give working capital number, working capital number has kind of contract [indiscernible] [ 89 ]. So essentially, there should have been some improvement, but the cash number seems to be lower than what you had given us. I mean last time, I mean, from 345 crores it seems to have come down to 170 crores. So how do I reconcile this?

So what is happening there, there is cash and bank balances you are asking that gives 345 crores last quarter as of 30th September. That's down to 172 crores. But basically, what is the bank balances [indiscernible] number, this was 123 crores as on 30th September, but now, was [ 192 ] crores. I think we will not [indiscernible] that would be between -- around 30 crores.

The next question is from the line of Rohit Balakrishnan from ithought PMS.

Am I audible?

Yes, you are. Yes.

So congratulations on your good numbers, sir. I have two. Sir, I just wanted to unpack part of the earlier questions on the question of [indiscernible] next year or [indiscernible]. I think back to your execution in [ '22 -- ] so I just wanted to understand your thoughts on [indiscernible] compared to the competition and what sort of [indiscernible]? Sir, what you think for the next year [indiscernible] probably you will increase your [ order input will ] increase -- so is there anything changing that from the competitive position or what are you comfortable with [indiscernible] more increase [indiscernible]?

So two things. One of the things I mentioned that the size of the orders or the size of the tenders coming, we are seeing an increase, right? Which means that in some of the job, the larger scale jobs, we expect the competitive intensity to be lesser and the competition because, as I mentioned, would be amongst the top 4, 5, 6 companies who have now started bidding in a more disciplined fashion. So that is one. Second, what we are also seeing is that the mid-level players who have bid indiscriminately, they have burnt their fingers, especially with the volatility in the prices -- in the commodity prices. So we expect even in that segment, more disciplined to be better. That is why we have kind of been very conservative in the last 6 months of this financial year. And we expect going forward, even with this conservative approach, sorry, we had -- we are slated to end the year with about INR 2,000 crores of new orders. So next year, we are targeting about INR 2,500 crores. So we feel that, that should be achieved. And the margins will be better.

We move on to the next question that is from the line of Parvez Akhtar Qazi from Edelweiss Securities.

So just wanted to [indiscernible] sir. One is, what would be your average cost from foreign currency? And second, what would be your gross debt level?

First question there, what?

Cost of money.

Cost of money, 7%, 7.1%, approximately. And the debt is at 20.32...

Past debt [indiscernible]

20.32 crores.

We'll move on to the next question from the line of Meet Parikh from Anand Rathi.

Yes. Sir, in the mobilization advance, how much is interest bearing?

How much?

Interest bearing.

[indiscernible]

Most of it is -- Satbeer will get back to you with the accurate data. But most of it is interest bearing.

Okay, sir. And one more thing, how much more mobilization advance is expected?

We are not looking to utilize the full quota of mobilization advance that we can avail. So -- as far as the Bihar project is concerned, which is about to begin, at the most, we will take about 5% of the advance. Though the tender provides for 10%. And in the long run, you know the company, the management is actively working to look at what -- to operate projects from internal accruals. It is only the pandemic, which during the pandemic, we started taking advances again. But we expect that in 2 years from now, if all things remain normal, we will not be dependent on mobilization advancement [ clients. ]

[Operator Instructions] As there are no further questions, I now hand the conference over to the management for the closing comments.

Yes. Thank you so much, everybody, for joining in. So I think if there are any follow-up questions, please feel free to reach out to Satbeer and our IR will answer those questions. And I hope to talk to you again soon. We hope to talk to you again soon with -- when our financial results for the entire year are released in about 2 months' time. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of Ambit Capital Private Limited, that concludes this conference call. We thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.