Air Products and Chemicals, Inc. (APD) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome back, everyone. This is Steve Byrne, covering U.S. Chemicals, and it's my pleasure to host Air Products for our next session here. And with us from Air Products is Simon Moore. Simon has been at Air Products a long time, I'll just say that. He started out in the merchant business. I know he then went into the on-site business. I know he went into the pipeline and tonnage business for a while down in Houston. I know he's been -- spent some of his days over in Taiwan, he was involved in the electronic materials business that Air Products have had. I think he's been back in the Allentown area, for about a decade, been involved in investor relations and then, over time, picked up corporate relations, and then about a year ago, picked up sustainability responsibilities. So Simon can talk about all of the businesses within Air Products. And it's a pleasure to have you with us today, Simon. We've got a lot to cover, but welcome to you.

Well, Steve, thanks very much. And I appreciate not giving my number of years and just calling me a long time employee, thanks for that. But really appreciate the opportunity to be here today to talk to you about the exciting things happening at Air Products on behalf of our team. Just wanted to say thanks to you, Steve, and the rest of the BofA team for allowing us to be here today. And thanks to everybody that's joining this call.

So let's go back almost a year when the NEOM project was announced and tell us a little bit about how the response has been since in terms of prospective customers. That's a mega project. It's on a scale that is a clear step change larger than anything else that's out there, and it's going to take some time. So clearly, you got your work cut out for you to build that customer base for that project, but I'm sure those efforts have been underway. Can you just characterize the receptivity of that project in this last year, and perhaps any surprises or changes from the perspective where there was interest, where in the world and what kind of projects.

Yes. Thanks, Steve. It's hard to believe that's been a year. And I guess I don't need to tell anybody on this phone or on this call that it has been incredible how the world's interest in this type of opportunity has grown almost every week. Every day, you wake up and turn on your computer, and there's another story that indicates the world's focus and interest on this. Very often, there's an update on a specific government program in a certain place around the world that's creating the framework, that's creating the foundation that creates the demand for this carbon-free hydrogen. Everybody knows the world's appetite for energy is growing and the world's appetite for cleaner energy is significantly growing. So what I guess -- in summary, and then I'll get into it, Steve, is we were very excited about this project when we announced it a year ago, but since then, the excitement level has just significantly increased. And just as a reminder to folks, while there are lots and lots of opportunities for hydrogen, I know you run the gamut for industrial opportunities, steelmaking, energy, those sorts of things, there's a lot of opportunities for hydrogen in the transportation space pretty broadly, including trains, ships, those sorts of things. We really see the best opportunity, the best fit for this product from this project to be the transportation market. And to be a little bit more specific, it's the heavy transportation market. We think that the -- essentially, the qualities of a hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicle become more apparent as the vehicle is larger and carries a heavier load. In short, the batteries become very, very significant if you try to run your large truck on batteries. And so we think that's a great market for the hydrogen from this project. And again, the city bus fleets around the world, we think, are great opportunities because almost every city around the world is looking to reduce their carbon footprint. And generally speaking, those city buses come back to a central location for refueling. So very amenable to putting in one of the systems that we're talking about to deliver that carbon-free hydrogen. And as you know, we haven't provided details on these conversations. But what I would say is that we are continuing to see a high level of interest. And the way that interest manifests itself today is people are looking at doing trial programs. So obviously, we're not going to have the carbon-free hydrogen until 2025. But Steve, if you were the city bus fleet manager of a certain city, you're not going to wake up one morning in 2025, throw all your old buses away and start using hydrogen. You're going to want to do some trial programs. So maybe you buy 5 buses or 10 buses. And you want to get set up today and start using hydrogen for your fuel cell buses, and you can do that today. We can install a system, we can safely dispense that hydrogen to your vehicles. Obviously, it won't be carbon-free hydrogen today. But in terms of kind of getting used to the system, we're seeing a lot of activity. So we are seeing a lot of trial programs that people are talking about and working on well in advance of the time that this carbon-free hydrogen will be on stream.

Any timing that some of this might happen? Obviously, this isn't going to be 2025. This is going to be well before then. Could we hear something about this in the next year?

Well, I think there's 2 different questions there, Steve. Things are happening all the time. I mean, just as a reminder, we are -- every day, our hydrogen is being used to fill vehicles, forklifts around the world for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. So it's not like we've never done this. We're doing it every day right now. I think, again, as you've heard us say, we're not going to be the ones leading a lot of communication around this. So I certainly believe it is absolutely possible that these trials will begin relatively soon, will continue through this period of time. I would emphasize, they're not going to be likely meaningful from a financial return standpoint, i.e., if somebody is using 5 buses, it's a pretty moderate amount of hydrogen. But it is the critical step, a key leading indicator that makes us even more confident of the success of this project in the long run.

So I remember when that project got announced a year ago and the size of the NEOM project was laid out, and then you had this downstream target of a $2 billion investment. My hunch back then was the $2 billion was a bit of a swag, not knowing exactly what it was going to involve, whether it was going to require storage tanks or to store the ammonia and how many refueling stations and where, and all of that. Would you have a -- any better idea now about how that 1.2 million tons of ammonia is likely to be distributed globally? Do you have any better view of that now, and could comment on whether that $2 billion estimate is potentially high or low? Any thoughts on that?

Yes. Good question. Maybe I could just step back for a second, and I know everybody is pretty familiar with the project. But just as a reminder, right, the total project is about a $5 billion capital investment for production in Saudi, which Air Products owns about 1/3 of. And then as Steve mentioned, we communicated that we expect to spend about $2 billion downstream. Now that's 100% Air Products. And so our 1/3 of $5 billion, plus the $2 billion is when we talk about a $3.7 billion total investment. But in terms of your question, Steve, I think $2 billion is still our best number right now. I mean, obviously, we learn more each day. And it's going to -- at the end of the day, if we end up signing up a larger number of smaller customers, we might spend a little bit more money. If we end up signing up a smaller number of larger customers, you have a little bit more efficiency in the capital that might be a little bit less. But I think that's a decent number at this point, and we'll obviously know more exactly as we go forward.

And then that's a mega project, the $5 billion that you talked about. Maybe a quick update from you on what is the current status of the engineering or any site prep. There's a whole lot of moving parts in that from all of the renewable energy that you'll need in La Porte and so forth. Maybe give us a quick update on what is the status of that project.

Well, Steve, I could simply say it is full speed ahead. And ourselves, our partners, are working actively on this project. As you pointed out, any time you're doing a large project like that, there's a heavy dose of upfront engineering. That engineering work is absolutely underway. We've shared that we've ordered key long lead time items already. Site prep is happening as we speak. And so I think the simplest way to say this is full speed ahead. I'll just make a quick comment. A couple of people have asked about a groundbreaking ceremony. And we're going to likely do a groundbreaking ceremony when travel makes that the right thing to do. And I really want to have people understand that, that's really a ceremony. That actually doesn't have anything to do with the project moving ahead. So whether that a groundbreaking ceremony took place this year or next year, that's no indication of anything about the actual project itself. So again, project is full speed ahead.

Any comments about regions of the world where you're seeing perhaps the most interest in this heavy-duty bus or truck transportation use for this green hydrogen? Is there particular regions of the world that you can comment on where this is -- where the demand is most likely?

Well, it's a great question. And again, I don't think I'm sharing anything super secret or things that people don't understand. All you have to do is really follow the news and see where the governments are putting in place the programs and becoming more specific about exactly how their interest in a lower carbon footprint hydrogen is going to be manifested. So no surprise, Europe has always been one of the opportunities, and you see the EU has put in place some specific programs. The countries within the EU, certain countries are putting in not only specific programs to support the use of hydrogen but in some cases actually recognizing that the country cannot physically and economically produce the hydrogen locally. So we're, for example, seeing some countries like Germany put specific programs in place to recognize they're going to need to import some of this hydrogen. And again, I just share that as one example. We certainly see ongoing opportunities in the U.S. as different states have their own programs and a lot of interest in various countries in Asia as well. So I realize mentioning the U.S., Europe and Asia doesn't narrow down too far. But again, I think the widespread level of interest is indicative of, this is truly a world-changing opportunity here. It's not limited to a certain region.

Okay. I want to jump over to Alberta, given the recent news there that -- I was expecting another project to be announced by you. But that one was not what I was expecting. And so perhaps you can explain a little bit more about it with respect to, it's an autothermal reformer, which is perhaps you can comment on how many of these you have as opposed to the more conventional steam methane reformer. And as I understand, you can capture -- you don't have a furnace with an autothermal that generates the steam and, thus, generate CO2 that's difficult to capture with an autothermal reformer. You have effectively the one effluent stream that you can capture that CO2. Can you talk us through a little bit about how much intellectual property, how much experience does Air Products have in these autothermal reformers?

Great question, Steve. And I'm glad we kept a little bit of a surprise for you on this project. So I think that's good. So let me just -- Maybe I'll step back on this one, because this, we announced 2 weeks ago. Maybe just describe the project for everybody and then I'll -- if I don't come back to all your questions, please ask again. So the most exciting thing about this project is, again, it demonstrates to the world that we can produce net zero hydrogen from hydrocarbons. So we just spent a lot of time talking about the NEOM project. And of course, that's producing carbon-free net zero hydrogen. It's doing that from renewable energy. And while the project is innovative in terms of its scale of the transportation, I think the world kind of understood how to produce via an electrolyzer carbon-free hydrogen from renewable energy. Now we're in Alberta, Canada, and we have a project that's going to take natural gas, which obviously is in abundance in that part of the world, and use an autothermal reformer and allow the production of net zero hydrogen. And that's one of the most significant things about this project, and I think that will create opportunities for similar projects in other parts of the world. So let me talk about the project a little bit. And I'll get into the differences with an autothermal reformer in a second, but I think for most folks, the easiest way to think about that is it's essentially a gasifier. And what I mean by that, it goes to what you were saying. You bring the natural gas in with oxygen. You really just have one process stream. And what that enables you to do is when it has reacted and you have CO2 and hydrogen, it's relatively easy to capture that CO2. So we can capture 95% of the CO2 produced from this facility, from this autothermal reformer. And I'll contrast that with the more traditional way of making hydrogen, which is what's called a steam methane reformer, of course, producing that from natural gas. And there, the best you can get is to capture about 50% of the CO2 for exactly the reason you said. You have a stream of natural gas combusting with air, and therefore, you'd have a mixed stream of CO2 and nitrogen, which is quite difficult to separate and capture. So again, in this project, we've chosen a different technology in ATR, which allows us to capture 95% of the CO2. And then if I could, I'll just continue to talk about the project for a little bit. So we also have a pipeline network up there that we've had for about 15 years, 3 big hydrogen plants, pipeline network over 50 kilometers connected to a number of customers. So we're going to connect this new project to that pipeline network. So that's a great opportunity for us to do this project where we already have existing infrastructure in the ground. So the majority of the hydrogen will go to that pipeline network and to support growth at those customers out there. We're also going to take part of that hydrogen and liquefy it. And we're going to use that liquid hydrogen to be transported in the Western Canada area to, again, support a growing opportunity for the mobility market. Now perhaps in that part of the world, given the very harsh environmental conditions, it may be that the truck market is perhaps more even amenable than the bus market. So we're excited about that opportunity. And then one of the other important and exciting innovative parts of this is we're actually going to take the hydrogen and we're also going to produce electrical power from it through a hydrogen powered turbine. And that's important because we're going to produce enough electricity from the hydrogen to support the project's requirements for power and they'll also be able to export a little bit of power. And that very low carbon power export offsets higher carbon power that would have been used elsewhere, and that's how we get to a truly net zero project. So it's really an exciting project, and it uses a combination of the ATR technology, our liquid hydrogen technology, the hydrogen powered -- or producing power from hydrogen to create this net zero. So then you asked a couple of questions about an ATR. So while Air Products does not operate any ATRs today, there's another process, fairly similar, and these are all derivatives of a gasifier, a natural gas POX or partial oxidation unit, and we've operated one of those in La Porte for many years. Steve, I think you actually might have might have visited that at some point in time. And that's Haldor Topsoe's technology, and there's been many, many ATRs deployed in the world. So we're very, very comfortable with that technology. And again, what it does is it enables the 95% CO2 capture and, thus, a net zero hydrogen facility.

And I did listen to that webcast with Seifi and the government officials that announced that project. And none that your downstream customers were involved in that. So it was really a government initiative. And I understand the government role here in the CO2 pipeline and, presumably, their involvement and support for the sequestration. But ultimately, you're going to be selling blue hydrogen to your existing customers. So my question for you is, do you already have contracts with those customers to switch from grade blue? Or is that just expected? Or is the contract really with the government? Who would you say is really the customer here?

Yes, great question. So yes, I think we were very, very honored and excited to see the levels of support. Two national federal level ministers, the Premier of Alberta, the Mayor of Edmonton and a few other folks as well. So -- and I think just, again, indicative of Canada has got a policy and a program to move towards lower carbon. Alberta has got a program. And the government officials' interest in being part of the announcement of this project is just indicative that they see this project. Again, an opportunity to make net zero hydrogen out of natural gas is very exciting for Alberta and Canada. But to your specific question, we don't see necessarily -- particularly the pipeline hydrogen, we don't see the government as a direct customer of that. For the liquid hydrogen, potentially, I think the Mayor of Edmonton said he ordered 2 hydrogen buses the week of that. So potentially, for that part of the market. But you're absolutely right. I mean, the majority of the hydrogen from this project will be going into our pipeline network, supporting our existing customers, their growth, potentially some new customers on the pipeline network. So I would just have to say that Seifi made it pretty clear that he wasn't going to share any information about the specific status of any contracts. But again, the majority of this hydrogen will go into the pipeline to our existing customers. I'll just make one more point about the government. Again, government not a direct customer, but as we see in other parts of the world, the government is taking steps to create the policy frameworks that create the value opportunities for these type of projects. So the exact mechanism of the rules and regulations may be different in different places around the world, but we do see governments around the world putting in place the programs that create the opportunity for these value-added projects.

So the cost of this project to Air Products, I'm talking about on an operating cost basis, you're -- it's -- nothing is cheap in Alberta. But the CO2 that you're going to capture is going to go into this pipeline and be sequestered. Is that a variable cost to Air Products? Is that something that you have some long-term certainty about the cost of that for that sequestration? Is there risk to you that, over time, that sequestration could become more expensive?

Yes. And maybe I'll just expand on the question a little bit, just maybe others might not be so familiar. I mean, of course, as we talk, the other great reason to do this project is the existence of the Alberta Carbon Trunk Line, which is a pipeline that takes -- it is in operation today. It takes CO2 from a couple of locations, including near where our new facility will be built and takes it to place where it could be safely sequestered. So I think one of the government officials said that carbon, the CO2 pipeline, is running at about 10% capacity. So all we need to do is capture the CO2 from our facility and connect into that pipeline network, and it's got the ability to take it and sequester it. And again, I know you asked a specific question about kind of the commercial arrangements around that. And I think at this point, that's not something we've shared. But I'll just say that we're very, very comfortable with the long-term expectations of the returns on this project which, as we've committed, exceed the commitments we've made to our investors for the various investments we make around the world.

So Simon, we had Haldor Topsoe on this webcast earlier today. We've also had a variety of other pure-play electrolyzer companies that have expressed an interest in perhaps getting involved in NEOM, whether you expand capacity there at some time or whatever. My general question for you is, you've made your choice on the [ ACWA ] and electrolyzers from thyssenkrupp. But do you have the opportunity over time to maybe take advantage of the technological changes that seem to be underway? All of these new entrants that we're hearing from are driving the efficiency of these electrolyzers up and the electricity consumption per kilogram going down. Is this an opportunity for you down the road for NEOM or more likely as you get involved in other projects?

Well, Steve, you said it well. There's an awful lot of companies talking about this space, right? And we spend a lot of time thinking about who we wanted to develop a relationship for or with for the NEOM project, and we're very, very excited about our relationship with thyssenkrupp. And I think there's a couple of things to keep in mind. First of all, there's the claimed performance of a piece of equipment, right? And then there's the actual ability to prove out that performance under world-scale conditions. And I don't need to tell you that sometimes, those 2 things are not exactly the same. What's the long-term reliability of these units? And so I think that's just something that has to be worked through throughout this. But I think one of the reasons why we selected thyssenkrupp as our partner is that we're excited about where they want to go. They're a leader in this space, and I'm quite sure, and I didn't get a chance to listen to their comments, that they want to maintain their leadership in this space. So we're excited about their continuing to do the work to continue to improve their product, if you will, to say state-of-the-art going forward. And we're confident that they will do that. And so assuming they do that, we'll be excited to continue our relationship with them. But also, Steve, if there was a brand-new technology that was proven out, we'd certainly want to be able to be in a position to take advantage of that as well. But at this point, we're excited about our relationship with thyssenkrupp and we're excited about their ability to scale up the production of the modules to support this game-changing size project that we're building in Saudi.

So the NEOM project in Saudi and the project up in Edmonton and Alberta, these were all in development for the last several years, as I understand. That would suggest that there are likely many others that you're working on right now. It's not like you stopped working on this 2, 3 years ago. So what do you think that the opportunity looks like for you down the road in terms of other types of projects? NEOM and Alberta are very, very different types of projects. And what's provoking this is the question that I just got here about what is your view about the green hydrogen outlook for the globe, from a distributed hydrogen perspective versus a merchant hydrogen? Do you see where the balance is going to be down the road? Or is there opportunity for both?

Yes. Well, as you observed, right, Seifi has said both in terms of the NEOM project. I think we had been working on that one for about 5 years and, obviously, 3-or-so years in Canada. Although to be honest with you, we've got an existing business up there. We've been talking about this for a long time. So I would just say that over the last few years, as Seifi was asked over and over and over again, are there projects out there that you're working on? Are you confident you can deploy your capital? And Seifi over and over and over again, said, "Yes, there are exciting things we're working on. And when we have something to announce, we'll tell you about it. And yes, I think there's more opportunities that we're going to have a capability to do." So I would just say that's the only answer that we can give until we announce projects. But your hypothesis, or your guess that there's plenty of other exciting projects or potential project we're working on is absolutely true. There are a lot of other things that we're working on right now, and we look forward to, at some point in the future, announcing those. Now to the fundamental question, and we get this a lot, is what color of hydrogen, what type of project? And I think, actually, this is an and, not an or solution. When the world contemplates changing its source of energy for transportation, even just transportation, never mind industrial uses of hydrogen. That's a massive transformation. There's going to need to be many projects. And I think there's going to be different answers in different places, right? If you try to do the Alberta style project in Saudi, it wouldn't work, and the Saudi style project wouldn't work very well in Alberta. So one of the things that we're most excited about is demonstrated credibility, technology, whether that be our own technology or relationships, and the ability to put together and execute and operate these big projects. We really feel like we can look at a situation and bring together the right pieces that fit best in that opportunity. So again, I don't know that we can say is it going to be green or blue. And by the way, I think the real way to think about that is just the lower the carbon footprint, the better regardless of the color of it. So for example, we do absolutely think that there will be hydrocarbon-based hydrogen production in certain parts of the world, which will have a much lower carbon footprint. Alberta is an example. Maybe another project won't be exactly the same configuration with Alberta, but that same idea, maybe an ATR that's using natural gas to capture the CO2, we think that idea can be used elsewhere. But equally, we think the NEOM idea of producing hydrogen through electrolysis where you have low-cost renewable energy production or purchasing, that is also going to be a model that's very, very effective. So I know the question is which one do we think or which one do we favor? I think really, at this point, it's an and solution, and I'll just say that there's projects in sort of both of those camps or both those flavors that we're actively working on right now.

And by extension, would you say there's also respectable opportunities in each of the different distribution modes? And what I mean by that is, distributing high-pressure hydrogen short distances, liquid hydrogen farther distances, and ammonia in even longer ocean vessels. Do you see opportunities in all 3 or do you have a view on where the primary opportunities are going to be?

Yes. Well said, Steve. I think it's all of the above. And again, actually, I think we checked all 3 boxes now, right? Alberta does pipeline and does liquid. And then NEOM, of course, does ammonia distribution. Again, what's important is that we can sit there with the customer or the government or whoever and say, "Look, we know how to do all of these answers. Let's talk about what's the best answer for this situation. What's the best answer for you as a customer or you as a government or a community." And we have credibility and experience in all those areas. So again, I think that, oftentimes, people are looking for which is the best singular answer. When you have this big a market opportunity, I think it's important to be able to be, quite frankly, be an expert in all of these areas.

So Simon, you know that West Coast hydrogen pipeline very well, I know. And the demand for hydrogen on that pipeline has increased due to the turnover from conventional petroleum-based diesel over to renewable diesel and the subsequent increased demand for hydrogen. Are you hearing or seeing any interest in that industry in the idea of producing that renewable diesel with green or blue hydrogen? Is that -- is the scale of that potentially too large, but maybe not. And if there were, is that another area where you could see the installation of a large electrolyzer project that you could tie right into an existing pipeline.

Well, Steve, the answer is just kind of yes to all that at the highest level, right? I mean, I don't need to tell anybody on this call that every one of our customers is thinking about their carbon footprint right now. What exactly they've announced or their goals, or what they're going to do about it but everybody is thinking about it. So to be honest with you, whether it's a conventional refinery, whether it's a renewable diesel refinery, they're all interested in lowering their carbon footprint. And one of the ways that they can lower their carbon footprint is to think about their hydrogen. And again, rather than getting wrapped up with green or blue, thinking about it as lower carbon footprint. So as you know, we have the capability to retrofit an existing hydrogen plant with a carbon capture system. Now as we talked earlier in the call, maybe we can only capture 50% of the CO2, but that's still 50% less CO2. That's a significant improvement from a carbon footprint. So we do think that there will be opportunities for us, on behalf of our customers, to retrofit some of our existing plants to capture the CO2. We do think that there'll be opportunities for new lower carbon footprint hydrogen. And again, that might be more like -- if you talk about a place like the U.S. Gulf Coast, who knows? Maybe that looks a bit more like the Alberta project than it does like the NEOM project. But again, that's going to get into the specifics of the project situation. You talked about renewable diesel. That's an exciting opportunity. There's a lot of different announcements in that space, and it's important to make sure that we, as Air Products, are focused on the more real ones of those. But as you said, renewable diesel consumes a significant amount more hydrogen per barrel. Now whether the refineries of renewable diesel will be smaller. What's the net hydrogen demand, it could be bigger, it could be smaller. But again, that's a good growth opportunity going forward. So again, I would say is, quite frankly, whether a refinery is producing renewable diesel or conventional products, I think everybody is looking at lower carbon footprint, and we've got really a suite of solutions for our customers.

So BofA has built this ESG database, and what I'm told from it yesterday with respect to your greenhouse gas emission reductions target is a 33% reduction by 2030. Assuming that's right, and correct me if I'm wrong on that, but that's a significant target. Do you see the carbon capture of that 50% that you just described at your existing SMRs as a likely target to reduce that emission reduction level that you have? Would you go down that path even if you didn't have a customer that wanted to buy that blue hydrogen from you?

Well, first of all, a couple of things. Great, Steve. Thanks for getting that right. Yes, we're very, very proud of our by '30 carbon intensity reduction target that we announced last year, so to reduce our carbon intensity by 1/3 by 2030. And quite frankly, Steve, one of the most exciting things about that is we've just spent 40 minutes talking about our growth strategy. And when you ask me about our sustainability metrics, I'm going to give you exactly the same type of opportunities. So as we say at Air Products, the world's focus on sustainability creates the growth opportunities we have and our growth opportunities drive our sustainability results and our metric improvement here. So we're focused on carbon intensity. And so the projects we're talking about, the opportunity to retrofit an existing plant and reduce its carbon footprint will help us in this metric. The opportunity to build new projects, again, because this is intensity based, because we have these tremendous growth opportunities. NEOM will produce hydrogen with no carbon footprint. Alberta produce hydrogen net zero. So those will certainly help as well. And a couple of the other levers that we're very focused on as we're always looking to improve the efficiency of our own operations. And then certainly, we see the opportunity to buy more renewable energy around the world for our air separation unit as part of our Scope 2 operations. So again, whether we're talking about our sustainability strategy, we're talking about the opportunities to drive our Third by '30 metric or we're talking about our growth strategy, these are all one and the same things. We don't have a sustainability strategy that sits off to the side. That's going to be a burning of investor cash. We're going to invest in these opportunities and earn good returns. So to your last question there, Seifi has made it clear to the investor base that we're looking to earn the good returns, greater than 10% IRR on all of these investment opportunities going forward. We do think that we're in a great position as the world gets more and more focused on lower carbon footprint hydrogen energy.

And we're running out of time here, but I'm going to squeeze one more in and that is, we've talked in the past at great length about the gasifier opportunity in China. Just wanted to know your view. Are you working on more projects right now having to do with green and blue hydrogen? Or are you working on more projects on gasification? Just curious.

Well, I don't know, Steve. We're working on a lot of in all those areas. And I'll just make one last comment. We sort of talked about these as 3 different growth areas. And kind of the irony of that is we always knew they would kind of merge together. So if we talk about the Alberta project, it's a type of gasifier with carbon capture, producing hydrogen for mobility as part of its output. So I think increasingly, all 3 of those growth opportunities are really just indicative of the world's focus on lower carbon hydrogen, lower carbon energy, and we see great growth opportunities across all those opportunities, recognizing that they will come together in some projects. Okay?

All right. Listen, Simon, I appreciate the update. Thanks for joining us today and all the best to you, okay?

Thanks, Steve. Thanks to you and the team, and we look forward to maybe doing this live sometime not too far from now. Talk to you later. Have a great day.