Aker Carbon Capture ASA (ACC) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

And the rest of the crew. And we're looking forward to spending some time with you today. We're also joined by a number of our key industrial partners and customers, and we're looking forward to their input later on in the presentation. And also, we're thrilled to see such good interest and engagement with the financial community joining us on this webcast today. It's a real pleasure for us. It's such a young company, only just over a year old to have such a good following. Now I'd say just over a year old. Of course, we actually are not just over a year, been around for decades. And actually, our technology story, our innovation our experience in terms of process technology really should be measured in decades rather than in months or just a year or so. Now this experience theme is something that we'll return to in some detail later on today in Part 2 and 3. Now our session today, our CMD really runs through 3 parts. The first sets the scene. The first is talking about the market. We have an opening comment from our CEO Valborg, but it's talking about the market from the Global Carbon Capture and Storage Institute, it's a great video, which will lead into a short break. Then we will talk about innovation, our innovation technology story. We'll have some great interviews with some key partners of ours, Siemens Energy and Microsoft. Then we'll have another short break and then moving to Part 3, which is all about commercial innovation and our Carbon Capture as a Service story. And they will have some hopefully very exciting inputs, I'm sure, from the likes of Carbfix and Carbonor. Now during this -- we have Q&A at the end, but during this on the online platform that you're already engaged in, there's room to chat and to ask questions. So we'll be keeping eye on that all the way through. So as questions come up, please do enter them in there, and then we'll get to them right to the end of the show when we come to the Q&A section. So let's take the first move. Part 1, Valborg. Thank you for joining us. How do you summarize our strategy and our positioning right now?

Thank you, David. Well, let me take the bigger picture first, fighting climate change requires action now. And there's an increased awareness that Carbon Capture and Storage must be part of the solutions. So a year ago, we were approached by a number of customers from all over the world who wanted to use our unique technology to reduce their CO2 emissions. And we understood that, that was the right time to establish a pure-play company Aker Carbon Capture. Now a year after, we're in operation. We are delivering the world's first Carbon Capture plant on a cement facility in Brevik for Heidelberg Cement. And we have announced a new innovative offering Carbon Capture as a Service. Carbon Capture made easy. We've set ambitious target going forward. And in order to do so, we need a clear direction how to meet those targets. First, we are looking at the market, and we have prioritized the Northern European market with Scandinavia, Benelux and U.K. leading the way. And this is where we had most requests from customers, but we also see that the regulatory regime is most mature. Then we have prioritized segments, segments where our technology have been verified and proven. It's cement, of course, we will be the first in the world. It's bio and waste to energy. It's blue hydrogen and gas to power. But we cannot do this all alone. We have to work with partners. And we're a small company. We're a start-up with the agility of a start-up but we also have the strength of the big Aker Group and the strong Aker companies in the group. But we work with other partners as well. We work with a number of complementary partners and some of them you will meet today. So I'm looking forward to introduce them to all of you. But in order to turn economics positive, for CCS, we need to get the cost down. That is our part of this puzzle. And we have set an ambitious target with up to 50% cost reduction within mid of this decade. And there are a number of initiatives to be taken to reach that target. It's not just one thing, but we are ambitious. When it comes to business models, we will continue to deliver EPC projects like we're doing for Heidelberg Cement, but also license models with key equipment. But now we are bringing the whole value chain together, Carbon Capture and Storage, offer the full value chain as a service, the customer just pay per tonne CO2 captured. So Carbon Capture as a Service is Carbon Capture made easy. So our ambition is 2025, secure contracts to capture 10 million tonnes of CO2 by 2025. So back to you, David.

Thank you, Valborg. Yes, there's a lot to discuss today. So we'll hear from you at the end. We'll come up with some closing comments and the wrap up. But the next stage of this is to run through a market outlook, and we're delighted to be joined by Jeff Erikson. Jeff, thank you so much spending the time to join us today from the Global Carbon Capture and Storage Institute, all the way from Washington, D.C. Now Jeff, you have some slides to run through. And then after that, you and I will have a couple of quick questions. So over to you.

Very good. Well, thank you David. And first, I just want to make sure that I'm going through. Okay. Can you hear me all right? David, can you hear me?

Yes. Thank you. Yes, go on.

Okay. Very good. Thank you. Great. Well, it's a pleasure to be here speaking with you all today, and it's exciting to be part of the Capital Markets Day. I think the fact that after Carbon Solutions, now is a pure play Carbon Capture company is a sign of the development of the industry. And like I said, it's a pleasure to be a part of it. I'm going to spend about 15 minutes today. Just walking you through very quickly, what we see as the current market in Carbon Capture. And when I talk about Carbon Capture that is full chain. It includes both the transportation and storage elements as well as the capture element. So not just what it looks like today, but what we expect to see in both the near future and the further horizons for the market. First, just a word about -- and I want to make sure that our -- that my advancement is working well because I'm not seeing that on my monitor. I should be advanced to Slide 2 here. Can someone confirm that -- there we go. Okay. I see it now. Thank you. I heard about the Global CCS Institute. We're a global think tank. We have as members, national governments, subnational governments, multinational companies and small service providers, and we're pleased that Aker Carbon Solutions is one of our current members. Our mission is simple is to accelerate deployment of Carbon Capture and storage globally. We have over 100 members now. We've seen tremendous growth just in the last 3 years, and I'll talk a bit more about that in just a minute as to why that's happening. We are located around the world in 7 locations, and we provide advocacy, intelligence and connections, both to our members into the broader Carbon Capture, stakeholder community and the climate and energy stakeholder community. Just to get everyone on the same page as far as what I'm talking about, there's a lot of languages getting thrown around with respect to what Carbon Capture is and a lot of different definitions, but this will be a working definition that I will use today. When I talk about Carbon Capture and Storage, it's the full chain, it starts with capture point source capture and the industrial facility that CO2 gets separated from the rest of the food stream, typically gets compressed and put either into a pipeline or on to a ship for transportation. And then it get stored deep in the subsurface geology, typically in a sandstone or basalt formation. If it sandstone then it's -- it has an impermeable cap. And as I said, it's typically a couple of kilometers down below the surface. So there's no opportunity to impact groundwater and those kinds of things. So that's the overall picture of Carbon Capture. And again, as I talk about it, it is those 3 components; capture, transportation and storage, but it also includes things like direct air capture. And I'll talk a bit more about that in just a minute as well as carbon utilization. So take a look at what's happening around the world. And if I look back at the last 12 months or so, a few headlines. First of all, tremendous growth that we've seen in both interest and commitment to Carbon Capture, and that's both in the private sector and among governance. And that's driven by a couple of things. First of all, there's a recognition now the climate change is not something that we need to worry about in the future, but it's security problem to address currently. There are more and more countries and companies that have committed to net 0 emissions typically by 2050 or sooner. And that -- those 2 elements are actually driving a lot of the interest and investment CCUS. In addition to that, there's more and more evidence that's demonstrated quite clearly that you can't get to net 0, you can't get to the decarbonization on a global basis and economy-wide basis without utilizing significant Carbon Capture and Storage. We're seeing that as a consequence of that policy and funding support, building all around the world and specifically in several countries both in -- well, across the continents. In Europe, it's the U.K., Norway and the Netherlands that are leading the pack as well as the European Union in North America, very much the United States, Canada, is also in the game. And then in Asia, China has seen a significant uptick in interest in Carbon Capture and Japan is developing policies, mostly actually to facilitate Carbon Capture development overseas, and they see themselves as a technology partner for other countries, typically developing countries where there's better storage capacity than there is in Japan. Some of the key developments that have occurred over the last 12 months or so. Well, the big news in the U.S. has been the finalization of the tax credit associated with capturing storing CO2, that's called 45Q. And that's been a long process to get that finalized, and now the rules are quite clear, it's giving investors some clarity and assurance that they understand the rules of the game, so they can make investments with a clear understanding of what kind of return they can get, going forward. In Europe, there's a significant project development occurring. The Landscape project, which does include the Heidelberg Cement Plant, which was mentioned earlier. The Porthos project which is in the Port of Rotterdam or it's capturing from CO2, at the Port of Rotterdam storing CO2 offshore. And then in the U.K., there's current competition for funding by the U.K. government. The government is committed to funding 2 cluster projects or as we call them networks by 2025 and 2 additional network projects by 2030. I mentioned China earlier, the 2030 and 2060 goals that were announced by President Xi, just about a year ago, is driving tremendous interest both among governments and state-owned enterprise as well as private sector in China. Everyone's kind of scrambling to figure out where Carbon Capture fits into their decarbonization strategy. There's a lot of activity that's occurring there in China. And then around the world, the real -- the new operating model is networks, and I'll talk a bit more about that in a little bit more detail in just a minute. That's one of the key developments and trends that we're seeing around the world. Finally, hydrogen is taking a very clear position as part of the energy future as well as the industrial future for the world. And there's currently kind of a big debate about how it's produced. Is it going to be green hydrogen, which essentially is separating hydrogen from oxygen in a water molecule that's energy intensive. It uses renewables to supply the energy, hence they can call it 0 carbon, but it is intensive and much more expensive than the alternative, which is blue hydrogen. Blue hydrogen is separating hydrogen from carbon in a hydrocarbon molecule typically coming from coal or gas. And taking that CO2 that's created along with the hydrogen and sequestering that through the use of Carbon Capture and Storage. So as I said, there's a big cost differential, it's about 3x more expensive currently to produce hydrogen with using a green hydrogen and using a blue hydrogen process. The big question is kind of the big unknown is how long will that cost differential last? And will it close? Will it narrow and how quickly will that happen? So we're seeing over the last several years, more and more evidence, as I indicated earlier, the Carbon Capture is absolutely essential to achieve our climate goals. There are a couple of reports that just came out this year, 1 by the IEA during the bottom left, the International Energy Agency, which looks at how to get to net 0 by 2050 and they're identifying a tremendous growth trajectory that's going to be required by Carbon Capture in order to achieve net 0 by mid-century. The other really significant report came out by the international panel -- Intergovermental Panel on Climate Change in the bottom right, that's the, what they call AR6, which identify the impacts of climate change around the world. And that came out just a month or so ago, and that's obtained some pretty frightening scenarios as far as impacts of climate change. So more and more recognition among well-established scientific bodies that Carbon Capture is an essential part of a low carbon feature. So where are we now? And what does all of that imply from where -- what we need to get to? Well, first of all, in 2020 and again in 2021, there's about 40 million tonnes of CO2 is being captured on an annual basis million tonnes per annum of 40 million tonnes, which is significant. It's about 10x the largest solar installation in the world. So it's a significant amount of CO2 to steam store. Now pales in comparison to what needs to happen by 2050. The IEA sustainable development scenario indicates that more than 100x this -- the capture and storage is going to be required venues there currently. And some of the other scenarios that are currently out there, including the net 0 scenario takes a scale up that's required is even higher. That implies a required investment of somewhere between $650 billion and $1.3 trillion over the next 3 decades. So a tremendous opportunity, tremendous need for investors and for the financial community as well as those who are providing services to those major emitters that need sequester under ground. I have lost my connection to the clicker function here. So someone on that end could advance the slides for me when I indicate them, I'd appreciate that. Great. Thank you very much. So this is the trajectory that we're showing. This was actually a chart that was included in our 2020 annual Global status of CCS report. We're anticipating tremendous growth if you see another bar there at the end that demonstrates 2021. That bar is going to be north of 150 million tonnes per year of CO2 capture capacity among those projects that are in operation, in construction and in development. So we're seeing -- we saw a drop down in investments and in activity from peak in 2011 down through 2017. And now what we're seeing over the next -- over the last 4 years, and again, well in the future is a significant increase in annual capacity by all projects, here both in operation and in development. And I have control now in my clicker here. So I'll take it from here. This is what it looks like. And if you look at a global picture around the world where the Carbon Capture activity is, this demonstrates in red, those that are in operation or construction and those that are in development. And you can see a great deal of activity in a lot of history for Carbon Capture in the U.S., some in Canada, a lot in Northern Europe, activity in China, Japan and Australia as well. And if you remember the countries that I ticked off earlier, you can see a great deal of alignment between active policy development in those countries and where the activity is happening, both the historical activity for those projects that are in operation and those that are currently in development. Looking at the global picture in another way. This is by industry. A couple of things to point out. Red is those in operations. Blue that are those that are in advanced development. This chart does not include those that are in early development, which adds a lot more circles to this chart. But in any case, you'll see that there's a shift away from Carbon Capture on natural gas processing and towards Carbon Capture on power production, both coal generation and natural gas generation. The other thing that you'll see again in our status report, this coming out in about a month, is a big increase in ethanol, Carbon Capture on ethanol. That's a relatively low-cost capture opportunity, and there's a network of 30 ethanol plants across the United States, Midwest that are -- have developed a cluster of network approach and that those projects are in development also. I mentioned networks. And that, as I said, is the predominant operating model that we'll see going forward. This is just a map of the various network projects that are occurring around the world and network is now gets to a [ shopping mall ] where you have typically an anchor tenant, a major emitter and several other emitters in that proximity, so that increases the efficiency to both capture and transportation. I just want to point out the Northern Lights project or the Longship project, in particular, this is occurring in Norway. I think that's -- I find really interesting here is if you look at this map, it demonstrates all the different capture or emission sources that they hope to service and manage the CO2 for across Northern Europe. And again, this we see as a great model for other projects going forward. So let me just end to finish up, come back to my headline slide, and I just wanted to add to that, what I'm calling a watch list down here in the bottom. These are things that are emerging trends that we expect to grow pretty significantly -- strengthened significantly in the coming months and years. First, a lot of interest right now on Carbon Capture liquefied natural gas as customers are seeking ways to reduce the carbon footprint -- the life cycle of carbon footprint of the natural gas they are purchasing. Carbon Capture on shipping is occurring in 2 different ways. One is great opportunity to actually transport the CO2 about ships. But the other thing that's starting to happen now is actually putting CO2 capture units onboard ships for their own missions. So shipping is, I think, an example of the evolution and maturation of the Carbon Capture industry. We're seeing Carbon Capture in new geographies, including Eastern Europe and Southeast Asia. And we're also, importantly, seeing that as support for Carbon Capture grows, the voices of those that are in opposition are also growing. We expect to see that. And so there's certainly not a consensus among energy and climate stakeholders on the role for Carbon Capture, and that's a challenge and a bit of a battle that is going to play out over the next months and years. Let me stop there, and I know Dave has a couple of additional questions if you want to throw any. So thank you for your attention. And David, over to you.

Absolutely. Yes, thank you so much. That was a really great set to pick some into only a few slides, but there are so many moving parts in this industry right now. And as you say, it's growing quite quickly. I also like your, perhaps, unintentional use for the phrase that Aker Carbon Solutions, as it's quite surprising because actually one of the big project today, it's all about Carbon Capture as a Service, and maybe we are moving more towards that type of model. So maybe well, if we have a change, we'll credit you with the idea when it comes out. But we have -- so a couple of questions. I really like the watch list, the highlights what to look for on horizon. But I wondered if you sort of took a little bit of a step at look over the horizon, what sort of -- what's next in the sort of the let's say, in the medium term, there no unknowns on the positive note, what catches your eyes?

Well, I think one of the areas that -- if I start with kind of technology and how technology will develop. I think that an unknown is the trajectory and the speed of its direct capture will be deployed. And there was an announcement today of the Aker project in Iceland that we'll be capturing CO2 from the air and actually using Carbfix's technology to sequester below ground. One of the things that came out in the article are this morning, over breakfast, was that there are some limitations to both the cost, which, again, is 3 to 5x more than points for capture and storage as well as the volume. Now the article that I already noted that this new facility is the largest in the world, start-up operation yesterday or they announced that they were under operation yesterday. And at the largest in the world, about 4,000 tonnes of CO2 capturing per year. Now that compares to a typical point source capture project, which is somewhere between 0.5 million tonnes and 3 million or 4 million tonnes per year. So volume is a limitation here. The other really exciting technology that we're looking at is the Allam-Fetvedt Cycle, may not be familiar with that, but NetPower is the company that's -- that owns that technology and is developing projects around the world. They're actually using captured CO2 to turn turbines to generate electricity. And they've got a lot of irons on fire right now, and they're just starting to get towards commercial scale projects. It will be interesting to see once they do go commercial, it's the promise and the expectation actually plays out there. So those are 2 areas that I would say are on the horizon, and we're not quite sure how it will play out. From a storage standpoint, I'll go back to the Carbfix technology, and we've been storing CO2 in Sandstone for 40 years. And most recently, the Carbfix technology includes store and CO2 in basalt formations, which are quite prevalent around the world. And the benefit to this is actually quite rapid mineralization or solidification of CO2, turning that into a mineral so that the opportunity for migration is well reduced. And so that's a really exciting potential. And again, we'll see how the cost and the practicalities of that technology plays out.

Of course, we have Carbfix with some contribution of the nice video in our session in Part 3. So looking forward to that piece. One more question for me, Jeff. Just on the -- I guess, the other side of the coin, putting it very simply, what could go wrong?

Well, on the last slide, I mentioned opposition that is growing and that is a significant risk. More specifically is general opposition to fossil fuels and Carbon Capture rightly around. You still tied quite closely in the minds of many to extending the life for better or worst of the fossil fuel industry, and many folks were opposed to that, many loud voices are. So that's going to, in fact, impact the acceptance of Carbon Capture. Now in Europe, that plays out as opposition to land-based CO2. In the U.S., it's opposition of pipelines, both of those I think are going to be essential going forward. Another possible derailer for Carbon Capture would be the advancement of other technologies and any associated cost that could be alternatives to Carbon Capture. For example, green hydrogen, how quickly will that cost differential narrow and will green hydrogen, the promise of green hydrogen and drop in cost for green hydrogen actually maybe make blue hydrogen absolute. In addition, there's different ways to make steel that are using electricity to generate high levels of heat. So the metallurgical coal is being used now, may not be required in the future. Now there's a lot that's wrapped up in that because that works more effectively, more cost effectively and new plants than on retrofits. But those are some of the things that I see as perhaps derailing progress that we are seeing now and anticipate going in the future.

Okay. Jeff, look, I really appreciate your time. Thank you for your insights and your nice graphics, and it's a good story. And Yes, obviously, one that we're following extremely closely. So look, thanks a lot for your time again. Just for everyone on the event, Jeff is not joining us for the Q&A at the end. You can see his details. So if you wish to get in contact with the Global Carbon Capture Storage Institute and Jeff himself, then please do so. Okay. Thank you, Jeff. Thanks for your time again.

Thank you, Dave. Thank you, all. Bye-bye.

Okay. So we now approach the break between the parts of our sessions. On the -- we're going to have a short break where you can find a refreshment, have a quick leg stretch before we move into Part 2, which is all about innovation. But in the run-up to the break, we have a very, very exciting video to show you. So let's see the Brevik video, please. [Presentation] [Break]

Hello, and welcome back to the second part of our Capital Markets Day. This is really focusing on innovation. It's focusing on our experience, our technology, our partnerships which also reflects one of our key values in terms of working together. And I'm delighted to be joined by Jim Stian Olsen, our Chief Technology Officer, our CTO. Thank you for joining us. Firstly, Carbon Capture. What exactly is this about? And where do we fit into the story?

Thank you, David. Yes. So today, the man-made CO2 emissions are at approximately 40 giga tonnes every year. Most of that come from power and heat generation, approximately 45%. But we also see a significant amount of emissions coming from industries, transport and other sources as well. And in order to reduce those emissions, we need to use all the tools in our toolbox. A low-hanging fruit is to improve our energy efficiency of our systems. This is relatively cheap, and it's usually the first move that people make when they want to reduce their emissions. In addition to that, we have to reduce our use of fossil fuels, which triggers massive deployment of renewable energy. This will take some time, and it will not help in the hard-to-abate sectors such as cement. And this is why Carbon Capture becomes important. The IEA estimated that we needed to install Carbon Capture plants covering 2,400 million tonnes of CO2 by 2040. And that is 6,000 CCS projects to put it in perspective.

So taking a step back from the market need. How does it actually work?

Yes. So if we go to the next slide here, then we will see a simplified overview of -- sorry, hanging on the slide. Yes. So we will -- okay, sorry about that. Aker Carbon Capture has a solvent-based post-combustion capture. And we have a process, which you can see here. We have a flue gas coming from the industrial source, and it goes into what we call the absorber tower. These absorber towers have very tall structure, approximately 40 to 50 meters high and several meters in diameters. Near the top of the absorber, we introduced our solvent which is a liquid chemical compound that binds easily to the CO2. The solvent then rains down in a counter current flow to the flue gas and captures the CO2. Clean flue gas is then leaving the top of the tower into the air. The CO2 rich solvent then is pumped over to another tall tower, which we call the desorber. Here, we add heat, which then allows the CO2 to release from the chemical compound and then move into the CO2 conditioning unit, which is usually either a compressor or a liquefaction depending on how we want to store the CO2.

So this is post combustion Carbon Capture?

Absolutely.

Now in this the solvent-based chemistry behind this is not particularly new, though. So what's our history in this and what...

So if we look at our next slide, then you will see that although we're not -- although we are a new company, we're not new to Carbon Capture. Already back in 1996, we -- the Aker Group delivered the Sleipner platform and then helped enable the world's first offshore CO2 storage project. And then in 2008, that's when we started our journey. Then we started the largest R&D project in Northern Europe in order for us to develop our Carbon Capture technology. At the most, we had more than 30 researchers working and testing more than 90 different solvent recipes and developing technology that we have today. At the same time, we started to design and build our mobile testing unit, which we've traveled the world and tested on several different flue gases over the years. And in 2012, we built and finished Technology Center Mongstad. And we have executed industrial scale campaigns with our technology there as well. All these efforts lead up to this point where we're now delivering the world's first Carbon Capture plant on a cement factory.

So a lot of discussion around solvency. But why is there so much time on solving R&D? Why is it so important?

Yes. So in the next slide, you will see a beautiful picture of our solvent. And the heart -- this is really at the heart of our research and development efforts. This the solvents are the key here. Our S-26 solvent is tremendously robust, and we have experienced very little degradation when we use it even with difficult flue gases. The degradation means that the solvent is breaking down during use, which limits the capital performance. And for some solvents, it can even lead to corrosion and damage of the equipment. This is not an issue for our S-26. In addition, the HSE profile of the S-26 is unique in a sense that it's non-toxic and biodegradable. And together with our other patented technologies, we ensure that our Carbon Capture plants does not impact the local environment they're in.

And this also has been tested through a range of flue gases. If you can just go to the next slide, there's a good image in terms of our operating hours and experience and also what we tested it through. Could you talk to this and let me -- why is it so important that we have this range of flue gases?

Well, this is the reason why I can say that we have a minimal impact on the local environment. We have more than 50,000 operating hours with the technology, 20,000 hours from Technology Center Mongstad and then 30,000 hours with our mobile testing unit. And we have tested different -- 7 different flue gases throughout the years and of course, including extensive campaigns within our primary segments, which is hydrogen, cement, waste-to-energy and gas to power. And at Norcem, we actually tested more than 7,000 hours continuously and qualify our technology with DNV.

So the next step in this, and this is a very convincing technology background, but it's taking -- it's going from the science lab to reality. It's taking a step to industrialization, commercialization and so on. What have we done along this way?

So when we -- since we finished the Technology Center Mongstad, we haven't been resting on our laurels. So we have been using smart engineering and clever solutions to be able to reduce the cost and the footprint of our plant by 90% and obtaining even better performance on our capture plants in our Just Catch 100 model. This plant is ideal for medium emitters with [indiscernible] constraints and deliver high capture rates for our customers. This product is also the basis of our innovative Carbon Capture as a Service offering that you will learn more about in later the second part of this event.

So the development and modularization has a big impact on the cost. But is that -- is there more we can do in terms of cost of Carbon Capture?

Absolutely, we have to continue to fight the cost curve of Carbon Capture, and we're now starting our journey to bring down the cost of our Big Catch solution. And this is a task that requires that all the disciplines in Aker Carbon Capture work together to achieve that. And in this next segment, you're going to see how we work to achieve this. [Presentation]

So there, our CapEx ambition up to a 50% reduction by 2025. And a big thanks to our employees taking part in that, it's really excellent. I really appreciate it. So we talked a lot about moving the cost down for Carbon Capture. What about the rest of the value chain, Jim and how can we look at that?

So I think we stand in front of a formidable task. And we're not going to solve climate crisis on our own. And this is why we have chosen to partner with some of the best technology players in the world. And we've chosen to work with the companies that have complementary technologies to ourselves. We work together with Aker Solutions and utilize their engineering and project execution capabilities, among other things on Brevik's CCS. Hitachi Zosen Inova, Haldor Topsøe, Siemens Energy and MAN Energy are partners that have complementary technologies to us. SINTEF is a key research partner that we work with for years, and we'll continue to collaborate with to develop our technology further. And Carbfix is a company that has developed a unique technology that enables CO2 storage through mineralization. And we truly believe that we can accelerate the Carbon Capture and Storage market together with them. And then finally, digital solutions are essential for us to succeed in a landscape where rapid change and development is the normal. And that is why we partnered with Microsoft, Aize and Cognite to leverage our data and become even better at Carbon Capture.

Thank you, yes. We'll hear a bit more about Carbfix later. But in talking of partnerships, we are extremely fortunate to have Siemens Energy joining us for a short interview just a short Q&A. Karim Amin joining us all the way, a few hours ahead of us in the Middle East, and so I really appreciate your time, and thank you for taking time out of your busy evening -- let alone your busy day. So thank you so much. And a few questions. So firstly, just for the benefits of everyone. Could you tell a little bit about yourself and what you do at Siemens Energy?

Thank you so much for the opportunity. Happy to be here. I am Karim Amin, I'm the Executive Vice President of Siemens Energy, running the Power Generation division, which is basically the division that has all the power generation assets, whether it's from fossil or from other sources of energy.

So the 2 main questions. The first one, the Energy transition, obviously, a huge theme. How are you incorporating this into your strategy at Siemens Energy? And particularly, how are you helping your customers to decarbonize?

Right. I think a few words. First of all, Siemens Energy. It's a world leader in the entire energy domain. We are active in generation of energy, on transmission as well as in industry applications. EUR 28 billion company. We are active in more than 100 countries around the world and more than 90,000 employees are busy with our agenda and business activities. I think our contribution towards that is twofold. First of all, is our own commitment as a company towards 0 carbon emission. So Siemens Energy back in May did sign and commit on the strategic scientific-based target initiative, which is targeting 0 carbon emission in our operations by 2030. So that's when it comes to our commitment in our own operations. But I think the bigger task is that we also have the privilege and a very exciting task to support our customers in decarbonizing their own processes and their own applications. So generation, transmission, industrial application is meeting these challenges by looking at 0 or low power generation CO2 emission on the generation side transmission and storage of energy. So there's a lot of efficiency elements here around how to store energy in an efficient way and maximize the use of renewable. And then there is a very big task around the decarbonization of industrial processes for all the industrial verticals. Just to give you a couple of examples to make these things a bit tangible. We recently did work on a project in steel plant in Linz in Austria where we are putting our electrolyzer to generate green hydrogen from green energy sources, and also power the arc furnaces with sustainable and green energy so that we are moving the application of green hydrogen and renewable energy straight into industrial processes in larger scale. So this steel plant will achieve 80% reduction in its CO2 emission when the entire operations are decarbonized. So that's one example. Another example really is in the area of decarbonization of heat, and I heard from the colleagues before me, they talked about combined heat and power. So together with other partners, we are working in Berlin on combined heat and power district heating using electrical heat pumps that would be able to power more than 12,000 offices, 1,000 households with sustainable green source heat applications, also contributing massively towards cutting CO2 more than 7,000 metric tonnes per annum. So a number of initiatives that we're working on to support our customers as well in their decarbonization journey.

Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks for including the examples. It's very powerful stuff. And my last one, partnerships in this whole momentum, how important are partnerships to you? And let's be honest, where do we fit in?

Right. It's all about partnerships. And I think we just talked about it or you just touched it a while ago. Well, we need to go into this journey of decarbonization fast. And to accelerate this, it's all about partnerships and how can we work together on multiple fronts. Aker Carbon Capture and Aker Solutions are working together with us. For example, a couple of days ago, there was also an announcement. We're working on one of the largest projects in the U.K. We bring our expertise in power generation, in high efficient gas turbines, in hydrogen co-firing so that you could reduce the CO2 emission, together with Aker Solutions and Aker Carbon Capture, putting Carbon Capture solutions where I think it will be the lighthouse project for capturing of carbon and also storing of carbon. That's one example. Next powerful thing is we are working together with Aker Carbon Capture on developing solutions that we could utilize on our own gas turbines whether for new projects that we will sell new gas turbines already with complementary packages and solutions for Carbon Capture or we look at our existing fleet. I mean Siemens has more than 6,000 gas turbine out there in the world. More than 20% of the power generation capacity is coming from our equipment. And by cooperating together with Aker Carbon Capture, we can offer our customers whether they are new customers or customers operating existing fleets, solutions that could really help them meet the decarbonization objectives.

Absolutely. Thank you. We think it's going to be a very exciting story, and we're very much looking forward to working with you, of course. Look, Karim, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate you dropping into our Capital Markets Day. And thank you again.

My pleasure.

So we are now back to the last part of the innovation discussion. Jim Stian, R&D. So moving away from some of the, let's say, some of the heavier stuff moving towards the horizon, what's our technology strategy?

Becoming better is something that we'll always strive for. And that is why we've established a technology strategy that is based on the principle of strengthen, expand and explore. We need to always strengthen our existing portfolio in order to stay ahead of the curve. We also need to look at new technologies that open up opportunities in adjacent markets. And last but not least, we need to explore. We need to look at nascent technologies that we can mature to an industrial delivery the same way we took post-combustion capture from the lab to the industrial scale. We are guided by our values and bold innovation will be central to achieving our goals.

Absolutely. I think we had some examples as well. So I think the next slide is looking at blue hydrogen, potentially.

Yes. essentially. And we wanted to give you a taste of what we're working on within technology and innovation, and this is one of the examples that we have. It's an ongoing research and development program that we do together with SINTEF to develop an innovative precombustion capture technology that can be used to decarbonize large-scale hydrogen production. And currently, we're conducting industry scale testing at SINTEF laboratories. And together with Aker Clean Hydrogen and other partners, we're looking at the opportunity to provide a Carbon Capture solution at [ Øygarden ] on the West Coast of Norway where we can capture well over 95% of the CO2 and which can lead to a reduction of 2 million tonnes of CO2 per year potentially.

And this pre-combustion technology will obviously be a good complement to our existing post conduction post...

Absolutely. It will give us one more leg to stand on this.

Absolutely. Digital, one of your favorite topics, I believe.

Yes. If you want to stay in front, we need to be agile, and we need to make good use of all of our available tools. And this is why we work together with our partners to build a digital ecosystem for Carbon Capture. This ecosystem is built on 3 layers, each their special purpose. Starting from the left on the slide that you see now, we have the data layer. We are a young company, but we are already generating and collecting data from many different sources, ranging from our operational assets. We have engineering data. We have data from our documents. We have our customer management systems and so forth. And all of these data we're collecting. And for us to be able to make sense of all of this data, we're setting up a platform layer where we feed in all the data. here the data is contextualized. And this means that we're structuring it, and we're making it easily available for the users. It is in this layer that we will see our data-infused digital twin come to fruition. And finally, we have the application layer. Here, we add applications that are connected to the data layer again. And this enables our employees to work with the data either through visualization, data analytics or other methods. So when this all comes together, I think people have very powerful tools to become even better at Carbon Capture.

Absolutely. Thank you. I think there's a super useful slide, certainly in my previous life, I would have found this extremely useful in explaining how so many parts of the digital ecosystem really, really fit together. So thanks for that. I did notice that we have a special guest now from Microsoft. I noticed that she was taking a particular interest in this slide as we were talking through it. And so I'm delighted one of our senior industrial partners, Microsoft and the digital side. Delighted to have Joanna Mainguy, joining us from Paris. You're the only person joining us today from our own time zone as well. So it will be a probably the easiest one we'll do today, I'm sure. But thank you so much for joining us, Joanna.

Good morning, good afternoon, and thank you very much, David, for having us.

Firstly, just a very quick question. Just sort of can you tell us who you are and what your role is at Microsoft?

Sorry, I'm Industry Director, EMEA, a part of Industry Solutions Energy and Sustainability Team at Microsoft.

Excellent. Now the 2 main questions. Firstly, Microsoft has I talked a lot about decarbonization as an important part of its strategy. But I suspect, and certainly when we talked before, I suspect there's rather more to it than simply helping customers decarbonize. What's the angle behind this big ambition?

So the ambition simply put is to make significant contribution to reducing global emissions. So we've been hearing about this through the event, very interesting conversations. I've been listening very carefully to this. Our goal is to use the whole of Microsoft business power to effect change in those areas by minimizing the negative impacts of our operations, of our own operations and maximizing the positive impact of our technology, delivering new products and services driven by data, AI and digital technology to power environmental sustainability. So that's why I was looking at this demonstration that you just made, thanks for sharing this. At Microsoft, we started this journey more than a decade ago. In January 2020, we committed to being carbon negative, water positive and 0 waste. And we also announced that by 2050, our goal is to remove from the environmental, all the carbon from the environment -- I'm sorry, all the carbon that Microsoft has ever emitted either directly or through electricity consumption since our company was founded in 1975. So we realize that reaching these goals also requires new technology that we discussed also today. To be developed and built, these technologies don't necessarily exist today. Therefore, we also announced a $1 billion climate investment fund, which is set up to accelerate the global development of carbon reduction capture and removal technologies. And finally, we also use our voice on climate-related public policy issues and support new policy initiatives to help us all move faster. So looking ahead of COP 26 in this fall, we have a real opportunity here to come together and commit to a net 0 economy and share learnings on our individual and collective journeys to reduce carbon emissions.

Certainly. And we look forward to seeing you on COP 26. My last question, partnerships. Now this is something that we discussed with some other guests on the CMD. How important are partnerships to Microsoft? And where does Carbon Capture fit into the story?

Partnerships are crucial, are crucial, essential. We firmly believe that the world's most challenging problem like the climate change cannot be solved alone. A strategic partner, absolutely key, especially to the big technology innovation. We all need to solve in this very complex issue. And to reach our sustainability ambition, we are completely dependent on technology partners in various fields. For example, we will rely on partners in the energy sector to provide clean for our data centers but also Carbon Capture technologies to reach our goal of removing all the carbon emissions produced by our operations since the founding of our company in 1975. You see the volume. And we're happy, as Jeff pointed out, to see that after years of significant [indiscernible] committed to CCUS today. This momentum is driven by a combination of factors like strengthened climate commitments like ours, increased government support, technology advances and stronger investment incentives. We will partner since September 2020. We joined the Northern Lights project in partnership with Equinor, Total, Shell and the Norwegian government. Northern Lights was shown. We'll provide transportation receipt and permanent storage of CO2 in the North Sea, and we absolutely hope that we're very happy to contribute to development of this shared infrastructure and hope that it will trigger new investments in related areas as we could all see in all the analysis that we show, and I'll just quote the energy -- international energy agency and of net 0 pathway. So how much more of CO2 storage will need if you want to meet our joint ambitions. So we're very happy to support all the partnerships and the most -- recently, we also started the cooperation with Ørsted and Aker CC to address technological, regulatory and commercial challenges, opportunities for creating negative emissions by capturing and storing carbon emitted by biomass-fired heated and power stations. So these are all examples I can give how we will support our own ambitions and again, where these partnerships are absolutely essential for our individual and collective journey.

Absolutely. Thank you, Michelle, for showing your thoughts there. It's interesting how often are Northern Lights and long shies mentioned, it really is a defining project. But Joanna, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate your insights, and thank you. Look forward to working with you in the future. So that is the end of Part 2. We now will approach another quick break for you to get some refreshments, stretch your legs before we dive into the heavy staff with the commercial and the finance side of Carbon Capture as a Service. [Operator Instructions] [Break]

Welcome back to Part 3 of our Capital Markets Day. As I did maybe warn you a few minutes ago, this is the heavy part of the day. This is the commercial and finance section. And we talked a lot about innovation from technology, from R&D side and also in terms of partnerships. Now we're diving into the commercial angle. And then we're going to dive into the finance and I'm sure what many have been waiting for some comments around revenues and costs. So firstly, I'm delighted to be joined by 2 of my colleagues, Egil Fagerland, our CFO; and Jon Christopher Knudsen, our Chief Commercial Officer, CCO, J.C. to keep it short. So we're going to start off with the commercial side. So J.C., commercially, what business models do we offer right now?

Well, essentially, I think it's important to distinguish between our 2 main offerings here. And it's about the big catch, which is our large integrated plants like we just saw this fantastic video from Brevik earlier, which is all about how we can integrate very closely to the plant and deliver large -- it could be 300,000, 400,000. It could be GBP 1 million or 2 million. And also, of course, as we set the sale of actually cutting costs in this area, we feel that it's important that we deliver this. So that's why we've indicated that these first-of-the-kind deliveries that needs to be an EPC with us. And similarly, of course, when we come to the Just Catch, these are the modular mid-scale plants. And these are produced and then brought to site. And this is naturally a turnkey EPC delivery. But as we move on, and of course, we would like to reach out into a lot of different places in the world. I think it's important that we also have other delivery models. And as we've indicated on this slide, we also have a technology licensing delivery model with the key equipment. And this enables us to work with clients that are not situated close to us and still be very relevant as they work with EPC companies close to them wherever it is in the world. This is, of course, not natural to do licensing of these blue containers. But certainly, the EPC delivery of Just Catch and the -- both the license and the EPC delivery of the Big Catch is the core of our offering.

Absolutely. Now the third column here is quite a new step Capture as a Service. Can you talk through what exactly is that?

Yes. What we saw with our customers was, of course, that they had trouble still that the technology was solid, it was tested and we had a long time in terms of actually being able to deliver this based on our technology development. We saw that the feedback still from the customer side was that it needed -- we needed to take away some barriers. And this is where we started looking at how can we make it easier for our customers to actually implement cabinet.

I think it set out on the next slide as well. So if you can jump a slide, we can.

Absolutely. This is -- and if we take the next slide here, this is where we started looking at what are the key obstacles that the customer is facing. So one of the things, of course, our customers immediately said was, okay, this is about cost. The cost is high, and we have problems with actually financing this. So we knew that the offering that we brought to the market needed to meet that requirement. It was also about -- some of these are mid-scale meters. They don't have a large engineering department. So the ability to deliver a Carbon Capture plant, the liquefication of it as well as intermediate storage on the site, is really important. And actually, that needs to be part of the offering as well. But even with all of that good stuff into one package, there were still obstacle. And what we saw very quickly was that we needed to do more. We needed to accelerate the market and we needed to look at how can we connect our Carbon Capture to transport and storage. And this is where the Carbon Capture as a Service came from because this needs to come into full value chain, using our partners, either it's Northern Lights that we heard about earlier, or it's the Greensands in Denmark, where we're working closely with INEOS and other partners or if it's one of the U.K. clusters or some of the Mediterranean ones that are being developed.

But this all really comes down to a cost per tonne model. How's that -- what does that include?

Yes, I would say it's a bit more than just a pay-per-tonne model. It's about standardization. It's about bringing a product that is so standard that we can deliver very quickly that we can mass produce it very quickly, and that we can connect to the transport and storage providers in one offering. So the customer is actually facing us and not a range of different type of people value.

I think this is actually, if you jump one slide forward, this is -- absolutely, there we go.

Yes. So the full value chain into one pay-per-tonne model is all about that capture is not enough. It's about how can we accelerate the market, making it easy for the customers to deliver the full value chain and get going with Carbon Capture.

So you have the full value chain, but how scalable is this?

Well, if we look at the next slide, I think it's fair to say that some of the feedback we got early was that well, we don't really know if GBP 100,000 is going to be enough if you're a big emitter. But we understand that we can get going with just using GBP 100,000 as a first step and to learn something. So we understand that with the offering needed to not only deliver quickly and safely, but also bring something that we operate to the site, reducing the complexity for the customer. And then we needed to be able to follow the natural development of our clients. So meaning that if you had GBP 100,000 and you saw that there's a need for GBP 200,000 then you can actually scale up under the same model and be as flexible as we can, but still scaling to the needs of the night. And some of our clients actually are very interested in getting started with this offering because they see long-term like cement producers right now they see that they will need to pay maybe a capture GBP 800,000 or GBP 1 million or even GBP 2 million. And I think this is where this model comes in as a really quick start to getting started, while allowing for scaling up either another Just Catch model or even to a Big Catch model.

Yes, it's a quick start. It's stepwise and it's scalable. But the flexibility is an interesting idea as well because you talk about the whole value chain. But where does the -- if you have a potential customer who maybe has some of this chain already, where can this fit in?

That was one of the things that we experienced during what we call the pre sounding phase. So before we went and announced it this summer, we met with a range of customers with different expectations to us. And we went through that. And one of the key findings we saw that this full value chain won't actually work for everyone. Some of them were very aggressive, already tied up to some of the U.K. clusters, for instance, and developing the infrastructure there. So they don't really need the transport and storage. This is where, as we see on the next slide, customized CCUS is applicable because we can certainly deliver the capture plant operating for 15 to 25 years and make sure that we join the customer on this important journey and then leave the transport and storage piece to others with...

So it allows us to fit into some of the big cluster -- some of the big industrial cluster projects like Northern Lights, Longship et cetera, that we've heard about. Now we're very fortunate because we are joined by a live guest today. We had a recent MOU with Carbonor, and we are delighted to be joined today by Helene Mørne, who is the CEO of Carbonor, who is just making it to the stage right now. Helene, thank you so much for joining us. You took the brave root of joining us in person rather than the online version everyone else has followed but we appreciate your time. So firstly, a lot of the listeners and guys or people on the webcast, who may be don't -- based in Norway, maybe not be too familiar with Carbonor or yourself. So maybe start off with -- so who are you? Where did you -- how did you get into this idea? Because I think you have yourself quite a strong belief in this -- in the theme behind Carbonor, not just a job.

Yes. I'm Helene Mørne, and I'm the Managing Director of Carbonor, which is a company that I want to bring to fruition a very important climate project. And our ambition is to establish a chimneyless production of reduction material for the process industries. And with chimneyless, I mean that our ambition is to lower the emissions as much as possible using Aker Carbon Captures technology and trying ourselves to innovate as much as possible in our processes to ensure that we emit as little as possible. And the reason for this engagement is very personal for me and I grew up talking about Carbon Capture. I remember the first time we talked about, this was in 1985. I guess that's when Brundtland Report coined the term sustainable development that we were talking about global warming. And my father said that I know how we can solve this. We can inject the CO2 into old oil wells. And now we are able to be part of an important climate project ourselves, which is essentially focused on cleaning up the supply chain of industry. So we produced this carbon-based reduction material that alloy industries need and us handling our carbon footprint in the end allows the end users, the alloy industries, the smelting industries to lower their carbon footprint. And we believe that thinking like that enables us to clean up industry and enables us to have these mobile phones and the computers with a lower CO2 footprint.

Absolutely. It's a very powerful story, particularly the early start as well. So how does -- looking at how you work with -- with Aker Carbon Capture, how does that fit into the overall story?

Yes. We started working with Aker Carbon Capture a few years ago after we did an initial benchmarking of technologies where Aker Carbon Capture came out on top there, aiming technology suited our production very well. And we are now currently actually doing a project. We're just finishing this demonstration project with Aker Carbon Capture now. They just started capturing CO2 the day before yesterday. So we're very excited about that to see how it goes. But when we are in full production in 2024, our ambition is to make use of Aker Carbon Capture's innovative business model, their Carbon Capture as a Service. And as we are now, we just signed an MOU in which we have decided to cooperate to find out how we can realize this goal. And in 2028, we will preferably have 4 Just Catch 100s, capturing 400,000 tonnes of CO2.

That's very exciting. So there's clearly a scalable opportunity, which is obviously good news. Excellent. Okay. Well, Helene, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate your time, and thank you for coming here in person as well. Okay. And J.C., back to you. I want to talk about the market opportunity a bit. And when you think when you look at the full value chain, if you think about the industrial clusters and what you might need to join up to successful market growth what does that tell you about how the market might look in Europe?

Well, I think Helene's example here is an excellent one because I think we couldn't have done this if this wasn't a project where there was an infrastructure planned. And of course, and Helene's has the luxury here of actually being situated just outside the Northern Lights terminal, that's a very easy way towards the storage facilities. So when we looked at how we can actually implement this Carbon Capture as a Service model, we needed to select markets where infrastructure was becoming available. So naturally, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, basically Scandinavia was a natural target. And of course, where legislation is also coming together because it's fair to say that many countries are still have a way to go in order to be able to transport CO2 to export CO2 out of the country and to make sure that they can take advantage of some of the storage of opportunities that are there. But more importantly, I think we also look towards market that have the right market drivers. So if you've seen and you, of course, David, living in London and handing up our U.K. business as well, we've seen the excitement that is brought now that the cluster sequencing process is now getting towards the end, I would say. And before COP26, we will probably know who is going to be the winner in that and that creates a lot of driving momentum. And that comes back to these market drivers that needs to be there because I think we will never get started with this type of model if those drivers are not there. if the cement factories, which have been part of the ETS system for many years, if they don't feel that this has a cost, then those drivers are not there. And certainly, now over the last couple of weeks, I would say, with the spike in the ETS price, it's been quite a remarkable interest in the market.

Absolutely. So if we just take maybe a little bit more detail around this. We have some numbers in terms of looking at Northern Europe. What sort of opportunity do you see in terms of number of emitters and so on?

Yes. So if you look at the next slide, I think based on these 13 project. Think about it, 13 transport and storage projects that are planned. And it really excites me, as you can see, because it is meaning that it's not just the Northern Lights anymore. It's the Ravenna in Italy, it's the U.K. clusters. We're seeing a lot of motion now in Netherlands. So out of these, of course, then many large emitters has gotten going. So we were been working for a long time with large-scale emitters and Norcem HeidelbergCement you saw in the beginning, of course, that's a long, long journey. But there is a much bigger potential. Just in Europe, there's more than 700 mid-range emitters that could benefit from this type of offering. It could be the local waste municipality-owned, waste incinerator. It could be a large cement factory that would like to get going and just start by capturing 100,000 tonnes. And the nice thing about it, it's also that there are synergies for the transport and storage provider. And that's one of the feedbacks when we work with all the relevant transport and source providers. It's that they can actually bring some of these values into their hubs and making sure that use absolutely full capacity of the these types of sites come into play.

Absolutely. Yes. And the -- we have this obviously well communicated ambition of signing contracts to cover 10 million tonnes of capture by 2025. How -- if you were to put a rough guide on this, how much of that could be from Carbon Capture as a Service?

What we're seeing now at the moment is that maybe as much as 10% to 20% of the [ 10% ] in '25 could actually be Carbon Capture as a Service because any of course, it will depend on that we keep up the momentum around the infrastructure that we unlock some of the countries. Just think about Switzerland, where there is maybe 30, 40 small waste incinerator but they're struggling still with the legislation side wanting to do more. So they need to do some of the national legwork in order to get there. And of course, we need to start making sure that the full value chain comes together. And it wouldn't please me more, David, if I could offer a Carbon Capture as a Service not only in Europe, but of course, a lot of interest now, of course, coming from North America.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you for the commercial discussion. I know one thing we've also talked quite a bit about has been the storage angle. And we have a fantastic video to show you now, and Valborg on-site in Iceland, talking to Carbfix with a hard hat. So can we please look at the Iceland video now. [Presentation]

Hope you enjoyed that. So real Carbon Capture chemistry in action. So now we're moving into the financial section, which I know many of you on the webcast will be very interested to hear more of. So Egil, our CFO. Thank you for joining us. We want to talk a little bit about Carbon Capture as a delivery model. How do you -- with your financial CFO specs on, how do you see this?

Yes. So to put this in perspective, we are starting with our end customer in focus with this business model. And on the left-hand side, you see our customer and we will work with our customer through a contract where we capture their CO2, and they pay per tonne captured. And for the customer, they will not need any upfront investment with this business model. They will -- we will offer a transparent pricing model and it will be predictable as well. And they will have a reduced need for in-house expertise for CCS, also for project management and for contract management across all these parts of the value chain, and we will handle that for the customer. On Aker Carbon Capture side, what we see is that we will be able to build a long-term revenue base through these service contracts. And we will -- with some of the pricing models that we will come back to in the next slide, potentially see a growing upside linked to increasing carbon prices. Also, for Carbon Capture, we will remain capital light. And that takes us into the last part of this slide, which is our financing partners. So what we're trying to do here is have the financing partners purchase the Just Catch 100 unit from us on an EPC turnkey delivery basis, and then we will lease it back from our financing partner. And the way we will do this, we are already, as we said in our second quarter presentation, working together with Aker Horizons. We're on a yield company that will be established together to finance the building of these units. But also through the last couple of months, we've really seen a strong interest from other investors willing or interested in financing these assets, and even specific project financing could be interesting. So our way of tackling this is finding the cheapest cost of capital available to finance these assets. So we are now in various dialogues to set up ways to finance these assets.

Absolutely. It's very clear. One, just taking a harder step back, the one variable we -- that I'm sure people want to take a view on, to try and understand is the carbon price. So the next slide outlines it a little bit. Can you talk a little bit about market expectations and how we see that outlook?

And of course, for us, we've been -- we follow the EU ETS or the EUA prices quite closely. And we also see that a lot of the industries follow this and start talking to us because the prices are increasing. On the left-hand part of the graph that's showing now, you see the actual prices and how they've moved, and you see the quite rapid spike in the price. And we even reached EUR 63 per tonne on EU ETS recently. And when we look at market analysts' expectations towards 2030, we see a range from EUR 75 to EUR 150 per tonne in their estimates. And for the IEA sustainable development scenario, we see they're saying at least EUR 110 per tonne to achieve our climate targets. So all that really drives a focus on how can we, in especially process industries, but really across all industries, remove CO2.

Certainly. Yes.