Al Anwar Ceramic Tiles Company SAOG ($AACT)

First of all, good afternoon, [Foreign Language] and then Ramadan [Foreign Language] to all. And to start the discussion session, as usual, we do not have any presentation as such because I'm sure all of you have done your detailed analysis from the audited financials, which we have already disclosed in the website. So having said that, I'll just briefly give, what you call, the performance of the company for the year 2025 vis-a-vis 2024. Just to give you a brief, the top line, the revenue was pretty flat at about OMR 18.445 million as against OMR 18.285 million of 2024, which means it's just a very, very nominal growth of about 1% or so, percentage point. Whereas the operational profit, we have done much better than what it was in 2024. We have done about OMR 630,000 as the operational profit as against OMR 110,000 of the previous year. As it was a very low number in the previous year. This year, it appears to be the higher side, showing a significant growth of 500%. But still, there is a long -- a lot of things that we need to do to reach our earlier numbers, which we have achieved in the past. And then coming to the net profit before tax, we stand at about OMR 622,000 as against OMR 186,000 of the previous year. And on the net profit after tax, we are at about OMR 557,000 as against OMR 172,000 of last year. And one more thing -- a highlight which I would like to add on here is that the EBITDA has been pretty decent this year at about 15% or in a Rial Omani value, we have almost around OMR 3 million in terms of EBITDA, which is quite decent considering the situation and the market conditions we are presently in. And also added to that, we are a 0 debt company, which means we don't have any debt in the balance sheet, which is a very, very positive sign. In fact, we have accumulated a little cash, though we will not be able to, what you call, disburse the dividends out of it as we don't have accumulated profits to that extent. We will certainly judiciously invest that and then ensure that the other income, the investment income is further strengthened going forward. And this year, we will have a little better investment income also from the additional cash which we have. And coming to the performance comments, which we have also mentioned in our Chairman's report. We are still continuing to have a challenge in the Saudi market as huge capacity increases there has pushed down the prices considerably, and we are not able to compete there due to the higher freight cost, which we have to incur to reach that market. That is one area where we are still struggling because of the, as I said, huge capacity increases there with local Chinese companies having increased their capacities considerably. And in Yemen also in the last few months of the year, in Yemen market, our volumes was impacted due to some changes in the customs and ForEx regulations and also the political situation, there were some disturbances because of which there was a dip in our volumes there, which we hope that it should get resolved. But again, with the current geopolitical situation and the disturbances in the Middle East region, we need to see how it is going to pan out going forward. But one big advantage has been in the last quarter and also which we foresee that from this quarter onwards, we will be fully benefiting is the antidumping duty, which is in place in the Oman market that has really benefited us. And then I'm sure the full benefit we should -- it should be accruing to us in the coming year or in the coming quarters. And our goal is to ensure that keeping aside the current political and geopolitical disturbances here, we wanted to ensure that we are growing in the regional market. And in the last year also, we did decently well in the other markets apart from Saudi and Yemen. In the other markets, we have decently grown there like Qatar or Bahrain and Kuwait and such markets, we have a very decent growth there, so which we feel that once everything settles down, we will be able to continue that push. And added to that, the Oman government has also implemented the quality standards, which means that every company or importer here need to ensure that there is a quality standard certificate that is in place for any material that is coming in, especially for tiles and a few other products, which the government is announcing it in phases. In the first phase, they have included the tiles in that. So that also will surely help us because low-quality products will not be able to come in as it used to earlier. So with this as the background, I now leave the floor open for any queries that any of you may have, and I'll be too happy to answer your queries to the extent possible. Thank you.

Yes. Anoop, I think you have raised your hand.

It's just a housekeeping question to start with. So if we look at the accounting in your cost of sales, has there been a change in how you account for this? I mean the expenses -- is there a distribution between cost of raw materials and consumables and other factory overheads? And more importantly, if you could touch upon what really goes into the other factory overheads because that number used to be much smaller in the pre-2024 period, and it's gone up quite a bit. So how should we look at this particular component?

You mean to say the other...

Yes. So when I look at your cost of sales, you have the cost of materials and fuel and so on. And there is one category in the end called the other factory overheads. Now this number used to be a very small number prior to 2024. And it's somewhere between -- it was around OMR 2 million in '24 and around OMR 3 million last year. Has there been some change in the way you account?

There is no major changes in the way we account. It is basically -- sometimes it is -- not sometimes, it is basically the cost of goods purchased also gets added there, okay? Because there is some small -- in a few of the projects, we need to ensure that we give a full complement of tiles, including the porcelain and the skirtings and so many other things, which sometimes we procure it and sometimes we have our own Third Firing plant. So those costs also will be added in the other costs. So that is the only thing. Otherwise, there has been no major changes in our accounting.

Okay. So if I look at just your cost of raw materials and consumables, I would assume that -- is it fair to assume that the change. So there was a 6% reduction in '25 versus '24. Does it imply that your sales volumes were lower by 6%? Is that a fair assumption to make?

No, no. That is not to be assumed because, see, the cost of sales is also dependent on the overall volumes, which we sell, okay? And the volume -- and the sale value also depends on the realization we get. So it is all interlinked. It is not proper to say that there has been a reduction in that.

No. But one would argue that the cost of sales pretty much -- I mean, doesn't really change significantly as in the components don't really change on a year-on-year basis. So that number in absolute terms when compared Y-o-Y should be indicative of what you've actually sold, volumes.

Not necessarily because -- see, one is the reason which I pointed out earlier. The other reason is, see, it also depends on what product you produce. Some products -- for example, we have launched a very, very premium product. For that, the cost may be a little higher. And there are certain products which there, the cost may be lower. So you cannot, what you call, broad-brush it saying that this is going to be representative in our business.

Okay. So just to sum up this other factory overhead, is it fair to assume that your change in inventory is accounted there instead of within the cost of raw material?

No, no, no. Generally, it is always accounted in the cost of raw material. It is not accounted in the other things, yes. Let me clarify that.

Okay. Fine. That's clear. On the operating rate, on the utilization rate, how has that changed? Where were we at the end of 4Q '25 and where were we at the start of 2025. I mean if you could give us some color on how that has evolved, your production operating rate and -- yes.

See, we're having a very decent, what you call, finished goods inventory in place. So we have been averaging out our production capacities also throughout the year. It has not been that we have increased it in the first quarter and then decreased it in the -- by and large, it has been in the same range. I wouldn't say that there has been any substantial material differences in our capacity utilizations over the year.

So what would that number be, Mr. Suresh?

It's around 70%. 65% to 70% has been our capacity utilization.

65% to 70%. Okay. Just one on the market. So you mentioned that Saudi remains a challenging market, and there's a lot of supply. Now there was a lot of supply addition a couple of years ago. I mean, based on your information, your sources, has there been any new capacity that's come in there or it is just that...

No, no. There has been new capacity which has come in. In fact, initially, the Chinese factory started with some capacity. After that in the last couple of years or towards the end of the '23, beginning '24, they doubled that capacity. And then they started operating at higher volumes, yes.

So our understanding is that Saudi used to be somewhere close to a 300 million square meter market for tiles. I mean, any insights on what the local production capacity is now? How much of that comes from the local suppliers?

For the Saudi?

Yes, for Saudi.

For Saudi, I don't have the real numbers today because there also, the market is pretty, what you call, very, very volatile there, okay? Because there has been a lot of, what you call, government restrictions and then a lot of government developments where they demolished almost 30%, 40% of 2 of their main cities of Riyadh and Jeddah, and that has not still started in full flow, the development activities. So that has also impacted the overall volume. So I wouldn't have a number -- I cannot put a number to it as of now.

But is it fair to assume that the capacity is maybe around 100 million, 150 million square meters?

Must be more, must be more. Clearly...

It will be more than that?

It will be more than that, yes. Yes. I think [ Shahoor ] from Vision Capital, I think you have raised your hands, you have anything?

I guess Abbas had raised the hand before. So if he wants to go first.

Yes, yes, please, Abbas. You're right. You're right.

Just a few questions. This crisis that's going on right now, and no one really knows how long it's going to last, but let's say, it lasts for another 3 to 6 months. Both on the raw material sourcing side and on the end market selling side when it comes to Anwar Ceramic, what impact do you see if this were to continue for another 3 months? That's my first question.

See, if it were to continue for 3 -- see, there are a few things which we have also already internally discussed the moment it started. We have to strategize on how to move ahead in this situation. And see, one is the markets already, as I said, Saudi market is already very challenging there. So we need to see whether we will be able to get into that market in this situation. And UAE market, there is no major change in that market as such. It is still -- so far, it is going on, unless there is going to be a very major further deterioration in the situation. And as far as Oman is concerned, in fact, it should be an advantage for us. Because with the -- so much of, what you call, barriers that is going to be there to bring especially the finished goods into Oman with a very, very high cost of war risk surcharges and then conflict surcharges and things like that, which will make it very, very unattractive for the trade to bring it in. One is the risk to bring it in and one is the price barriers to bring it in. Whereas we are much, much better positioned because we can produce locally and not only us, in fact, all the local manufacturers can take the benefit of that, provided we are able to manage our raw materials, imported raw materials, as you said, judiciously, which we have a plan in place, so which I don't think so I'll be able to discuss that in an open forum. But certainly, we have some plans in place. And if everything works out well, there might be a very marginal cost implication for us on that front, but not very significant compared to the overall cost. And then we can see how we can appropriate the local market.

My second question on the same topic is that in that case, Oman is obviously quite important to you. Now given your capacity that you have and you spoke about the quality standards and you spoke about the antidumping duty and especially now that most of the inventory that came in from India and China has been exhausted. How much of your capacity can Oman really take? Because for me, having tracked Anwar Ceramic from 2008, if the company were to -- there's someone who's not muted. I don't know who that is, but -- I think it's [indiscernible]. Yes. So for me, I think it's imperative if we were to turn positive Anwar Ceramic, we see a path towards this 80% to 85% utilization coming in. So just for us to understand, given the tailwinds that you have from the regulatory side, will Oman be able to absorb this kind of quantity? And the second part question, Suresh, to that is, when I speak to some guys in the market, they are saying that Oman is moving the porcelain way and ceramic tiles in some ways -- it's not what it used to be. So if you can address that broader sort of question as well when you're answering me, please.

Yes. Okay. Fine. See, you have a 2 part to your -- to the question. One part is how are we going to ramp up our capacities, whether the market is going to take it and whether we will be able to reach our further higher capacities. So to answer that question, I'm sure not 85% -- if this situation is going to continue and antidumping is going to continue and standards are in place, I'm confident not 85%, we will be able to even reach a little higher capacities than that also because the market is quite huge, okay? And because there has been quite a lot of imports, which was coming in at very low prices, which we will be able to substitute. So to that extent, we are very confident that we will be able to achieve a little higher capacities. And coming to your second part of the question that people are moving towards porcelain and things like that, to some extent, it is true that people are moving towards porcelain. But that was when the so-called porcelain -- I wouldn't say that it was 100% porcelain, which was coming in. But the so-called porcelain, which were coming in were almost matching with our prices. See, price is a very important factor in the current market scenario. And now that porcelain is not going to be available at the prices in which they were getting in. One is because of antidumping, one is because of quality standards and also because of the current situation. All put together, the same pricing is not going to be available to the consumers here, okay? So that will give us the advantage because they will go back to the price point where ceramics is. And having said that, ceramics also, we are also doing a lot of activity to promote ceramics where there are a lot of advantages of ceramics and then what is the advantages of ceramics over porcelain. And all those things we are educating the consumers to ensure that we are able to participate in a bigger scale.

And sorry, if I heard that -- [indiscernible] Suresh. Firstly, it's always a pleasure speaking to you because I kind of understand the industry a little bit more, not just Anwar Ceramics. So thank you for that. Just a specific question regarding when you said that Oman can actually take even more than 85% of your capacity. And you meant just the Omani sort of market, right? You're not talking about any other export markets because you have other export markets as well, I think, based on our previous discussions on these calls. So what is the size of the Omani market? And are you talking about the wall tiles? Are you talking about floor tiles? And which kind of -- who are you going to sell to? Are these single owner Omani houses or households that are constructing their houses, their villas? Or are there any big projects that gets you this excited about actually because that's a big number that you're looking to sell into Oman. Just for us to better appreciate the dynamic of the Omani market as well.

Okay. When I said we are going to -- we will be able to achieve more than 85% also, I didn't mean that we are going to achieve the entire -- we are going to sell the entire thing in the Oman market, okay. What I meant was that we will try to manage -- maintain the other markets at the current levels. And whatever is the additional capacity utilization can comfortably get into the local market and more. Okay. And coming to your second part of the question, it is a mixed bag of consumers. It is not only the individual villa owners. It is also small apartment buildings, 1 plus 3, 1 plus 4, 1 plus 5 and things like that. Plus also, we are seriously participating in the projects like Haitham City and things like that. So it's a mix of all.

Okay. Are you seeing any opportunity for price increases this year?

Price increases is not an immediate priority for us, okay? But at the same time, whatever is the additional cost that we will have to incur to get in some of the raw materials in the given scenario, in the given -- the disturbances in the Middle East region. So those increases, we will have to pass it on to the customers, to the trade, okay, which we will have to do that to ensure that we are not going to go short charged on that. At the same time, our focus is going to be -- as also I had indicated in my previous discussion session, our immediate focus will be to achieve capacity utilizations, which will give us a benefit in terms of the fixed cost optimization.

Yes, that makes sense. And are you in a position to give some guidance around what utilization levels you're targeting this year?

You have already mentioned it. 80%, 85% should be the minimum we should be able to look at.

Wow. So when I -- if I have one last question and -- because Anwar Ceramic has been quite clear with this dividend policy that most of the cash flows you generate, barring any new capacity expansion, which clearly is not the case, you kind of distribute it back to shareholders. And that's been a clear policy. Now this year is interesting in the sense that you don't have retained earnings and the company loss stops you from paying out more than retained earnings. Now if I just look at my model now and put in this 85% utilization and take care of this fixed cost sort of leverage -- the operating leverage that you will benefit from, it looks like the cash flows you generate, and mind you, there's a fair degree of depreciation as a noncash expense in this company as well, which is actually distributable. So if I take -- look at that, then your retained earnings is far lower than the actual cash flow you can generate this year. But -- you are not stopped from doing any sort of capital reduction or anything like that, right? Even if though you cannot pay more than retained earnings, there are other avenues to return cash back to shareholders through buybacks, through capital reduction. And you're open to that, I would assume, just to get your view on this.

See, this is a subject which I will not be able to comment on as this is the prerogative of the Board, how to strategize on the excess cash that we have, number one. Number two is, if you go by the precedence, if you see 3, 4 years back, we had done a capital reduction of almost 25%. From OMR 30 million, we came down to about OMR 22 million in our paid-up capital. So there has been a precedence to it. That's all I can comment on, but then I don't think so I'd be able to comment anything more than that on that in the current scenario. Having said that, in my opening remarks, as I said, we are also judiciously investing the excess cash so that the shareholders are going to benefit with a much, much higher investment income from that.

Sure. And my final question is what would make Suresh, now knowing what you know with the benefit of antidumping duty behind you with the benefit of quality standards, what would make you turn negative on the sector where you feel like your utilization will not go to 85%, 90%, it could be at 60%, 65%. Like what are these risks that you would highlight if you think that your utilization has to be at the 60%, 65% level? What needs to go wrong?

One is the antidumping. And one is the resolution of this war quickly and then coming back to the original thing where the dumping used to happen at very low prices and a lower freight cost. If the freight costs are going to come back to very low levels, that can impact us with the antidumping being remote. Otherwise, we don't see any major, what you call, impediments for us to achieve what we have targeted to. Yes. [indiscernible] sorry, I think you have been waiting for some time now.

Yes. No, no, it was an insightful discussion between you and Abbas, always something to learn. I just would like to follow up on a couple of questions that Abbas already asked. When you mentioned, obviously, you have the export markets in the region and -- so obviously, the region is a net importer, right? So we would expect Al Anwar to have better opportunities for exports if due to the ongoing conflict, the region cannot import that easily. My question is, what are your realizations local versus export margins? Do you make more money per unit in the export market? Or is it better in the local market, please?

You are getting into too much of -- too detailed analysis, which I think I'll not be able to answer you very, very pinpointedly or very accurately, I cannot answer you. But broadly, I can tell you that the realizations, the sale value can be almost the same or sometimes export will be higher because of higher freight costs there. But on the realization front, I can say that always -- for any manufacturer, the local market will always be better.

Yes. Perfect. It makes sense. My next question is regarding your imports. Obviously, as you mentioned, that you should [Foreign Language] be achieving higher, 80%, 85% capacity utilizations given that you are able to manage your raw material imports. Have you seen any problem on that front in the recent days after the start of the conflict?

Immediately on the start of the conflict, yes, there are some -- few containers which were in the high seas. We had some, what you call, obviously, all the containers were in the high seas. I mean, they couldn't reach the ports. So those things and all, we are seeing how to clear it out and then see how we can manage the situation because we always have a minimum stock levels in the ground. So to that extent, we are not very, what you call -- we don't have a stock out situation in the immediate future, yes.

And if I may ask, what are the minimum levels that you currently have for what sort of period are you covered for?

I think -- we go by the industry standards. I don't think so it's good to have an open discussion on this on an open forum.

Yes, sure. It's okay, sir. I understand. So my next question is regarding your capacities. Earlier, if I remember it correctly, until I think 2024, you guys used to mention the capacity utilization during the quarter in your company reports. And since first quarter 2025, you guys have actually discontinued that. Any chance that you are going to resume mentioning that?

No, no, no. There is nothing like that. I mean, I also -- now that you have pointed it out, I'm also realizing that it has been missed out. But then we have been very transparent in any of the calls where we give out what our capacity utilizations have been. So any time anybody is welcome to check out on that.

Perfect. We will do that. And turning back to the product mix. Now as you mentioned that porcelain was a thing because of the low-cost imports, it was able to penetrate the market and compete with the ceramics. I'd like to ask what is your capacities in terms of both ceramics and porcelain. If you can just tell us the mix?

No, we produce only ceramics. 100% of our capacity is ceramics. Whatever porcelain we do is only traded out.

Okay. Perfect. Right. And my next question is regarding the imports. After the antidumping duty, you guys have been mentioning that the imports should clear out by the September quarter of last year. And then it was -- I think it was still there by the fourth quarter of last year. Now have you seen the -- what is the general report from the market? Are the low-cost imports that were previously there before the antidumping duty, have those been cleared out and you guys are able to sell more from this quarter onwards?

Yes. Yes, it's a good question because we also anticipated that it will be completely out by the September. But unfortunately, it did not. And then almost till the end of the year, there were still the materials, the low-cost materials in the market. And now we reckon and also we understand from the market that a substantial portion of that has been liquidated. So now -- and we are also seeing the impact of that in the first quarter now. So there is a very clear impact. And then going by what we are seeing on the ground, we are confident that the low-cost material is not there in the market in a substantial quantity.

Great. That's good to know, sir. My next question is regarding your, obviously, ability to sales. So there's one thing that you guys can export to the region now with the ongoing -- their inability to import too much. But is there any threat of the region dumping into the Omani market, creating competition for you?

That is -- in the region means you mean to say the other producers from the region?

Yes.

See, that is always a possibility. See, for example, see, when we are looking at Oman market being our home market, every company will be looking at their home markets first. Because given the constraint and like what Abbas or Anoop had asked previously, if this war or if this situation is going to continue for 6 months, what will happen. So there will be some disturbances in the capacity utilization for everybody, and they will concentrate on their local markets as transportation costs and other benefits will be much better in their local markets. So we will also be concentrating on that. So each manufacturer when he concentrates on his local market, then the cross-border dumping, we reckon, is going to be much lesser because if this is going to continue for a longer time, the availability of gas in certain markets or the availability of certain raw materials itself, for example, if it's a porcelain product, the raw material for the porcelain products also has to be got in to the country as a raw material, so which means that is going to be at a much higher cost on the freight side. So considering all those things, it's not going to be easy to dump from across the border. For example, somebody has to dump from Saudi to here. They are going to face the same problem we are facing as we are not able to transport it over a longer distance because of the higher freight cost. The same thing they will be facing. So to that extent, I'm confident that -- rather, I don't foresee that there is going to be a big dumping within the regional markets. Hope I have answered my question here.

Yes, yes, you have, sir, perfectly. And a follow-up on that, a small follow-up. You also are confident that your exports will continue in the region? I mean the same concern won't be there for...

See, we are not dumping. See, your question was whether they can dump it in large quantities. Whereas we are not dumping our products there. We are only selling it at the normal prices, and then we are having a market for our products. We have a brand value there and then we have a quality standard, which is accepted there. So that is what we are appropriating. We are not looking at any additional low-cost dumping in those markets.

Okay. Yes, it makes perfect sense. Now my last question is regarding your sales. We have been observing a seasonality in the first quarter during the last couple of years in 2025 and then in 2024 as well and in 2023, I might add. The first quarter has always been -- in the last 3 years, at least, has been really good compared to the other 3. So should we be expecting a similar thing this year? Because if the first quarter numbers are actually good, should we -- how would we know that we should attribute this to the actual improvement in the markets? And would it continue? Or is it just the normal seasonality that we have been seeing for the last 3 years?

It is -- actually, if you go back -- instead of 3 years, if you go back to the last 10 years or 15 years, the seasonality generally is -- the dip comes during the Ramadan period and post Ramadan, up to the big Eid, okay? That is what the seasonality generally is for this business. But having said that, last 3 years, it was a little, what you call, aberration in the market because after the first quarter, one is there was no Ramadan or anything in the last 3 years, substantially in the first quarter. And subsequently, there had been a lot of disturbances either in the form of removal of antidumping or in the form of, what do you call, war between Ukraine and Russia started, that disturbed the market a bit. Those kind of disturbances were there. Yemen, there were some disturbances. So those kind of disturbances was what created significantly lower margins in the subsequent quarters. So I wouldn't say that first quarter has been a seasonality trend if you look at a much longer horizon of, say, last 15 years. And there has been years where the second and third -- third and fourth quarter has been substantially better.

Okay. So now we should hope that in absence of any new event, I mean, there is no seasonality. So whatever comes in the first quarter should sustain given the events are continued if.

It all depends on the market dynamics. You know what is happening now. So we will have to wait and see. We have some more time to go now compared to the first quarter? Yes. Anoop, I think you have a supplementary.

Yes. Just one follow-up. I mean, so when we look at how demand shaped up in 2025, was it sort of in line with your expectations or above or below? Because remember, this time last year, you had guided for a 10% growth in demand through 2025. Just to understand if that met your expectations or how did that shape up?

In the Oman market, it exceeded our expectations because to the fag end of the year, we were able to do a little better because of the waning down of the low-cost material, okay? So there was no major issues. But then in the Saudi market, as I detailed earlier, it has been very challenging, and then we had degrowth in that market, okay? Overall, even Yemen market also, there was a small degrowth because of the last 4, 5 months disturbances there, both in terms of the geopolitical situation, the changes in the regulatory framework for ForEx and customs regulations. So those kind of things pulled us back a bit there. Otherwise, we would have, for sure, met that whatever we had targeted, yes.

Yes. I gather the growth in Oman was upwards of 10%, right? I mean that's what you're saying in 2025.

You can say that so.

And how would you look at 2026 higher than that in terms of percentage growth?

Obviously, that is what we are targeting for with the situation coming back to normal here, in the region, I mean, yes.

No, just in terms of projects, assuming everything goes back to normal tomorrow, what sort of growth would you look at is purely from -- so there are 2 things, right? One is the organic demand growth and then there is the substitution of imports, which, again, from an apparent demand point of view, it's a pretty big lift. So just purely from how projects are shaping up and how demand is sort of growing organically, how are you seeing that shape up in '26?

I would say the organic growth is not as much as the substitution growth. See, what we are looking at is more a substitution growth in the current year. The organic growth is yet to start in the country here now. So that is in a normal process. I mean, there is no substantial spurt in the demand as such. But substitution is clearly going to help us out. Anybody else, any other queries or questions? If you have none, maybe then we can. Yes, sorry, Abbas.

Suresh, I had a question. Just wondering because you mentioned that one, Oman obviously, is a very important market in terms of how much you sell to it. You also said it's a very cost-conscious market. So how does one differentiate as a brand versus a commodity when it comes to, let's say, Al Shams as a brand and your competitive positioning versus Al Maha or Sur Ceramics when it comes to the ceramic products. So how do you ensure that people come, look for you even though you might be a little more premium pricing because being a brand, I mean, you can command some sort of premium pricing, right? Just wondering if there's a strategy around that.

Certainly, certainly. See, we are the leading manufacturers, and we are the biggest manufacturers. And our brand is the biggest brand for tiles in Oman today, okay? That is very, very clearly because we are almost 3 decades old now, and we have a household name. The Al Shams is now a household name in the Ceramic segment. So we have more than 100 preferred dealers and distributors in Oman alone. So we are -- very clearly, we see how the walk-ins and then how the footfalls happen and then how specifically they say that Al Shams is the brand they are looking for. So we have been seeing that for many, many years now and almost a couple of decades now. So I don't foresee that, that is going to go down in no time, okay? So there is very clearly a brand value, which we have built over the years. And further added to that, we are, in fact, even getting into a premium segment where that is going to add further value to our capabilities.

So technically, you mentioned that you're trying to educate customers about the benefit of ceramic over porcelain. And for someone who's naive about this topic, could you educate me like why would -- because for me, it's always porcelain is more premium, it looks better.

Okay, if I ask you, what is the difference between a porcelain and ceramic? What will your answer be?

I think for me, I don't know enough about it. I'll be honest with you. It's just anything else I've heard around it.

As per the standard, it is only the water absorption, which makes the difference between a porcelain and ceramic, okay, as far as our product is concerned. In fact, on the strength, all other parameters, everything is -- we are on the same standard as what the porcelain can offer. In fact, our strength and all are sometimes even much, much better than even the so-called porcelain, which is coming in, we have made those tests and then we have records for that. So only the water absorption is what it makes. So for a tropical country like Oman, where it is not a cold country where lower water absorption is required, okay? That is not, what you call, a requirement in this part of the world, okay? So to that extent, if all the parameters are good enough, as good as porcelain, I think the water absorption point alone may not be, what you call, good enough reason for somebody to pay more. Of course, there are other minute, some smaller differences, a full body tile, a half body tile, double loading. I mean, there are so many aspects to it. But we are talking about a general so-called porcelain, which is coming into Oman low cost versus what we are producing. If there are no other queries, maybe we can conclude the meeting. Okay. Thank you, gentlemen. I think we had -- hope we had a very good session today. I'm sure most of the queries that was raised has been reasonably and adequately and answered to the satisfaction of the person who have been asking that. So thank you so much for attending this, and then we will be too happy to have any of your queries. Even if you have anything in the future, you can just reach out to us, and then we will be too happy to provide you whatever is possible from our side. Thank you so much. Good day and a nice weekend to all of you.