Al Maha Ceramics SAOG ($AMCI)

Good morning, everybody. I'm Rajeev Singh, CEO for Al Maha Ceramics. I'm along with my colleague, Mr. Vikas Shukla, who is my Finance Manager. And I welcome all of you for saving the time and attending this meeting. So before we start, I will just show you one small presentation. Though our figures are already in public domain, but I will take you through a few of the slides, so that it refreshes your memory or information on our company. And after that, I think we'll take it up in terms of answering to your questions one by one. So over to Vikas. I think, Vikas, you can share your screen.

Good morning, everyone. This is our key highlights regarding the FY '25, what is done as compared to the previous year. So company has done a tremendous performance and major turnaround in FY '25 as compared to, if you see, last 2 years, we are suffering, getting losses. So that's the major turnaround. It reflects in our profitability as well as volume and everywhere. So you see our revenue grew by 41% and net profit grew by 120% in comparison to FY '24. And recently, we started our, Al Hael, our sister concern, its operation in November 2025. These are the highlights and quantitatives. This is sales revenue, major key highlights. It's a comparison of FY '24 versus FY '25. Then our key ratio analysis, similar, FY '24 versus '25.

You can see that overall, in all the parameters, there has been an improvement, and that has resulted to the better results.

These are income statements, comparison FY '24 versus '25, in absolute value. This is sales and distribution overhead comparison, previous year versus current year, in absolute value. Then admin overheads, element-wise. This is balance sheet comparison. Cash flow comparison, previous years versus current year.

I'm sure there will be questions around this, what are the challenges. And as you all are aware, we have just given the gist of our challenges, and we can discuss specifically on this, and then opportunities and way forward. These are also something which you are aware of in terms of opportunities, anti-dumping implementation by Oman government, but the effect will start to be visible now. Quality mark implementation from 1st of March. And of course, there are new markets which are opening up like U.S.A., Jordan, Syria, and Iraq, a huge market, and due to the geopolitical situation, it gives you an opportunity to explore those markets. Internal factors where we are moving is like we are launching new value-added series in Al Maha. We have launched R12 Anti Slip. These are some of the products you will not find with the competition. These are very innovative and puts Al Maha on top of the chart in terms of the premium brand. Al Hael, we are planning to start Line 2 within next 2 to 3 months. And basically, we will be implementing those new innovative products, which are fetching very high realization and very, very unique products, which are not generally available with most of the competition. So these are the way forward. And I think I'll open the floor for everybody. You can just raise your questions. One by one, I will be trying to answer them. So I think this is a small glimpse of presentation what we made, though every figure is there in the public domain, but just to refresh, I thought. So yes, you can go to them and start. Abbas?

Rajeev, thank you for the call. Congratulations on a good year. A big turnaround from the year before that. So I think under your leadership, you guys managed to do quite well. Now we have to move forward. With the benefit of implementation of anti-dumping duty and also the quality standards, what kind of utilizations are you expecting in the ceramic plant? And I'll come to Al Hael as a separate sort of question, but let's stick to the ceramic plant, what opportunities, what utilization are you looking at? You think Oman can absorb your capacity? Is there any disruptions to your export market? And as part of that, the question comes on the raw material side, glazing material, are you facing any challenges importing them into the country? Do you have enough inventory of them? Do you expect any disruption? So questions around your ceramic plant naturally that you expect from an analyst, and then I have some other specific questions that I'm going to ask you as well.

Thank you, Abbas. I think I'll go one by one. I think anti-dumping was announced long back. But as I was explaining you during my one-to-one discussion with you also that unfortunately, we have given enough time to the local importers to bring in almost 5x to 6x more material than regular intake what Oman was taking, and that has resulted in further deterioration of the market. Even some of the stocks are still lying, but we are expecting that, that should dissipate and it should start reflecting in our numbers for the domestic market. Now anti-dumping is implemented on Chinese and Indian products because their volumes are high. Nevertheless, we cannot overlook the very cheap imports coming from Saudi Arabia, which has got the Chinese unit there, and they have gone for expansion and plus the prices are ridiculously low. So this is disturbing entire Middle East, not just Oman. So frankly speaking, as far as I am concerned, we have to live with the situation. Though it is a facilitating factor for a company, but in my experience of 30 years, these challenges are always there, whether there is sometimes Chinese jumping in or maybe Indian, so we have to really create a market for ourselves. And that way, I will not say that I will be depending solely on these factors, external factors, to carve my performance for the coming years. So as far as the capacity utilization you asked, I think that we should reach 80% to 84% this year. That's what we are planning. And improvement should be seen by the end of this quarter. Because I think Ramadan and everything has come and it is now getting over, now we should start seeing the market opening up. Coming to the present unprecedented war situation, it is coming as both blessing as well as a challenge for us as a manufacturer, because Indian factories are closed, some 300 to 400. So that will give you some respite in terms of products not coming in, in the countries. But at the same time, it is also putting a lot of pressure on us to suspend our supplies to countries where the sea -- we are using vessel to send material like Bahrain, Qatar due to excessive charges levied by the shipping companies and also the ports amounted to USD 2,000 to USD 3,500 per container, which is excessively more than the cost of the product if you have to pay the duty. I think it becomes totally nonviable. And that also applies to the incoming raw material, which are coming, as you mentioned. So raw material, we do have stocks. I think 3 months stock to 4 months stock, we do have. And also, I think there is no dearth of material coming in. It can reflect in cost. And that, I believe it will be passed on to the market because when the total industry as such will have the cost implication, it will definitely be reflecting in the net prices. That's what I see that prices will be going up by next month. And that's where the recovery of cost implication of these factors of war surcharge and other things will be taken into account. So I think that way, it's going to be the situation. We foresee that maybe it should not last more than 2 to 3 months. If it lasts more than 3 months, then I think the cost and also the prices will definitely see a very high upward trend.

Okay. Just to ask you on the capacity side. Now you said you are targeting 80% to 85% utilization for the year. What was the utilization last year?

72%.

72%. Now we were recently on the Anwar Ceramic call, and their ceramic capacity is 3x Maha's capacity. And they are looking at a very strong year for Oman starting from the first quarter itself, at least that sense we got on the call. Now Maha that has 1/3 capacity of Anwar Ceramic, I'm not sensing the same sort of enthusiasm from your side. And I just want to understand, is it because Oman has not been an important market for you and maybe you've not made the same inroads like the Al Shams brand? Or -- I'm just trying to figure out what's going on with you guys versus, let's say, the positioning of Anwar Ceramic.

Okay. Abbas, well, I don't -- if you have seen me working, we have never taken Al Shams as our competition, which I will follow, because if you even see the profitability in the bottom line, we are much, much ahead than Al Shams. Our objective is not to throw volume at an unprecedented credit in the market. Rather, we are doing our business sensibly. You are right that throwing the material in the market just to gain the volume is easiest way approach. But then your prices and your profitability, you will see it will never come up. Rather, I'm trying to improve my product realization by introducing the products which can fetch good volume, good realization, and also the segments which value Italian, Spanish, and the products where the lifestyle and the mid and the upper mid segment of the customer we are targeting. We are not into the masses where the commodity because our capacity is low, and we cannot have same strategy what my competition has. They have a pressure of volume. I don't have a pressure of volume. But at the same time, just for the heck of increasing my capacity utilization, I will not start throwing material at dirt cheap prices where the cost and the selling prices are not making any sense. There are many markets which are asking for material, but the prices are ridiculously low, and we can't go and just dispatch material to show the utilization going up. I think end of the day, I have to see what bottom line we are going to get into. But if you see Oman market, as compared traditionally, our share of market in Oman was 40% versus 60% export, which has come up to 50%. And going forward, I look forward to have much more strength in Oman market, wherein made in Oman product should be our key to visit all the government sites and the projects which are there, clubbed with porcelain, which we are producing. I think we should try to reach a bigger volume in Oman market, right? Challenges are also there coming in from export market like Yemen and also Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia 12.5% duty, which is still there, and refund not coming to any of the suppliers is one of the biggest challenge, and ridiculously low prices by local Chinese there is not making any sense to go to such a huge market. So if you see my results, if I compare myself in 2022, I was selling almost close to 100,000 in Saudi Arabia, which has come down to big 0. So where those material has gone? Definitely, it has come to Oman and it has come to the higher realization area like UAE. So I'm selecting my market where to sell rather than just throwing blindly in all the markets. Secondly, Yemen is one change which has happened for the last 7 to 8 months is that earlier money transfer was coming into cash and all, they had several routes to bring in the money when they were importing material from any place. And now since last 7 to 8 months, the government has gone extremely strict in terms of what material we are importing, the rules and regulations, and also what money you are sending out of Yemen through Central Bank of Yemen, and then putting up a capping on the amount of money you can transfer in one time, a lot of documentation, checking and all. So these are one big hurdle which has brought our volume down in Yemen market also. So Yemen was also 125,000 to 150,000 per month for us. Now we are trying to have an alternate market. As I told you, we are exploring new market. And if you have seen our MDA, we are the first Omani company to participate in Coverings 26, which is the largest tile exhibition in United States of America. And U.S.A. is one such market that even if we get a drop of it, I don't think we're required to really dump our material in any of these territories. So frankly speaking, I am looking at the market which is suiting me rather than just going and trying to be everywhere, right? I hope this answers your query.

Yes. Just my concern is on the export market given what's going on, because you still rely 50% on export in Saudi, I hear you. I mean that's the same feedback we've got from the other guys in the country that Saudi pretty much exports are down to 0. Even without the custom duty, it's tough to compete with the Chinese there with the local plants. Yemen, I've heard a similar story. And that's the reason what the sense I got is Oman became more important in this context, especially with the anti-dumping duty in play and lower freight cost because obviously, it's your home country. But in your case, you're still looking at a 50% sort of thing outside Oman. Now which market is that actually where you can make your realization...

Abbas, I think if you have seen the potential of the Gulf market, it is 500 million square meters, right? And Oman does not play a very significant role in this potential. The largest market is Saudi Arabia, followed by UAE. So our next home base is UAE. And if you have seen our market, we have been growing tremendously in UAE, and that is because of low logistic cost is also fetching better realization. And this is a market which is for commodity to value-added to top-end products, everything is there. So frankly speaking, if you tap these 2 markets, you require at least 3 plants like Al Maha to exhaust, if you are really very strong in these market, because the potential is so high. You need not go and just put a glimpse of yourself in every of these territories and just spread out keeping your credit risk and other things. So I think along with Oman, the next big market is UAE. And also, as I told, we are exploring Jordan, some premium end customers we have already identified, and U.S. is another market. So to be honest, the export market will definitely remain dynamic keeping in view the tariff situation of U.S. as well as the present geopolitical situation, and we have to be really like opportunist in terms of which market is opening where, when. There cannot be a straight line which you can draw for the complete year, because situation is unpredictable and it is dynamic. Yes, you have got 2 strong markets, Oman and UAE, and rest of the products, you can decide when and where you want to sell.

Okay. Now if I speak about Al Hael, you've written down the investment completely. And obviously, we know your liability is limited to your investment. Now when I see the notes, the company made a OMR 3.75 million comprehensive loss last year. But I believe Al Hael is still selling to you and then you're going and selling in the end market. So this structure is still a bit lost on me. So I'm a little confused. Can you elaborate the relationship, the partnership with Al Hael and what's going on? And obviously, what's the outlook for Al Hael in terms of both utilization and profitability when it comes to, especially as Maha shareholders?

See, Al Hael has got a series of challenges. I think when we took over, it came with a legacy of a series of court cases, liabilities, bank liabilities and all. So definitely, it was a tough task. And then there was a pause and leadership gap for 1 year, which has put another pause for, say, 1 year. After I joined, I started the plant and now it is running. Challenges are still there, because to be honest, the ease of doing business in Oman is not as it is in other part of the world, getting visa, getting clearances, getting one blockage, second blockage, it's extremely difficult. So what we planned versus what we are doing, we are trying to cross hurdle every day. Now since there was a very huge liability on Al Hael, bank was not ready to further extend benefits or facilities to Al Hael and also due to not very active participation from Qatari partners who still hold 55% of the share. So I think the present arrangement is that Al Maha is marketing, selling and strategizing the product strategy. And we are buying everything from Al Hael. We are keeping a nominal profit on that. And then we are selling to the market, and that brings additional revenue as well as business opportunity for us. And in the turn, you can see -- I think when we will publish our results for this quarter, you can see that our sales are on upward trend despite all challenges of manpower, raw material and everything. And there are huge orders which are piled up. So now porcelain is the future. And as I explained in my presentation, we are looking for starting Line 2 in next 3 to 4 months' time. With the value-added products fetching us margin above 25% to 30%, that will give us much more leverage in terms of sustaining our business there. Yes, as far as the dividends and the profit to the company is concerned, it's not going to come. But definitely, this product is going to help us penetrate new market, sustain our footprints in the present market, and also help Al Maha to sell their products, because single product if you are taking to the customer, they have the choice to move to competition and then they can buy even ceramic from them. So this is one thing which is like a symbiotic relationship wherein Al Maha requires Al Hael and we are selling Al Hael and it is giving us a premium segment. Our product of Al Hael, fortunately, surpasses the quality standards what even any of the local players has got, even the European, and the products which has gone to the site, we have got repeated orders. We are commanding premium on the prices. Products are very good. This is well acceptable in the market. I don't see any reason why I can't start Line 2 and, if everything goes well, Line 3, and then we will sit back and decide how to reevaluate the whole thing. But presently, so far, so good. One line is going on. Second line is in process, maybe next 3 to 4 months, depending on the situation of vessel, because some of our CapEx things are stuck up in that.

So this Al Hael, when you speak about one line that's been operational, effectively, you're working as a trader, right? They sell to you, they capture a small margin. You sell to the market, you capture a small margin. Now what is the quantity that we're looking at from this one line for, let's say, 2026?

Abbas, how can you say that we are trader? We are managing the plant. Our team is managing the plant. We are producing. Don't get into the billing part. Billing, you can see as a billing from A to B. I am very much in control of that plant. Even any screw in the plant, I'm in control. Manpower, production, raw material, quality, design, product strategy, everything is by Al Maha. It's not just like going and buying the stuff. We have plenty of choice in the market to go and do that. Why should we go to Al Hael then? So as far as the capacity utilization is concerned, as I was telling you, the biggest issue what we are facing from Ministry is the issuance of visa and the manpower. That is hindering our utilization of 100% utilization of Line 1. So presently, around 125,000 per month is our production. We plan to take it to around 200,000 by next month. And once the Line 2 starts, gradually, it should improve and take us to around 300,000 to 350,000 per month.

Okay. And yes, I forgot that you are the one managing the plant. It's just that the nature of the relationship that instead of Al Hael selling directly in the market, they're selling to Maha and Maha selling in the market. So that margin is being split between Maha and Al Hael, right? Because I'm a shareholder in Maha, not in Al Hael, obviously.

You should be happy.

Yes. But are there any plans to recapitalize Al Hael?

Come again.

Any plans to recapitalize Al Hael?

Not yet, but I think it is too early to comment on these matters, Abbas. I think the situation is dynamic. Let me sail through and run 2 lines successfully, then I think it will be a better time to discuss, because all eyes are on us, including the eyes from the bank and our shareholders, our Board. So we are having a very challenging task to move. But fortunately, I see a lot of inquiries, market and orders pouring in, especially from UAE, the reputed top quality builders. Prices are not primary, the quality and the product taking the primary seat. And since you are aware, porcelain is almost 70% of the market potential. And if only one plant is there which is having the top quality products which you can give to the market, I think you have a very high leverage to sell those products and get your margins.

So with the benefit of anti-dumping duty and now quality standards, will you become the preferred sort of porcelain tile by choice for the Omani ecosystem? Is that the endeavor?

See, the effect, as I told you, still has not started reflecting in. There are 2 things actually. Even the quality mark implementation is there from 1st of March. But the way SASO was implemented in Saudi Arabia in terms of absolutely 0 tolerance, I think when it comes to Oman, it becomes a little easy and slowly, we are pushing the ministry or the ports that whether you are keeping an eye on these marks or not. But I think presently, from 1st of March, it was implemented and immediately, the war has started. So this is the time when the gas supplies are suspended in most of the Indian plants. So presently, it's not really we are able to say whether it is the closure of the plant or the implementation of this is affecting. But as far as I know, it is because of suspension of the plants.

That you're benefiting basically?

Yes. We should get benefited.

And now if I just look at your cash flows, last year, you were working at a 72% utilization and limited porcelain sort of capacity from Al Hael and you generated close to OMR 1.3 million in CFO. And obviously, this year, the guidance is, based on the 80%, 85% utilization you expect to hit by the end of the year, things are looking obviously up. What sort of working capital are you looking at investment? Because I feel like Maha is practically debt-free, okay? And it could be a very interesting year from the company's perspective, and there's operating leverage, obviously, right? Your costs are more or less -- it's a low-cost kind of fixed operating structure. So when I model this, it looks like there could be a big sort of cash flow jump. I'm not sure what kind of working capital investment you're looking at, but it could be an interesting sort of cash flow generating story for 2026. I just wanted to get your comments on that.

Our cash flow, if you see, our debt is -- really debt-free company.

Yes, exactly debt-free, yes.

Yes. And why my cash scenario has changed, because we increased our revenue as well as my raw material structure, because earlier we are storing less working capital inventory. That we increased and we're supporting to our Al Hael operations. That's why our cash flow -- means working capital is enhanced, occupied much more if you are comparing with the previous year. But I'm hoping once our scenario becomes normal, so that will be definitely improved, because if you see my doubtful debt and provision position, it was much more improved in terms of previous year.

But I think I would like to comment here, Abbas, that I think the situation is so uncertain that presently, I cannot draw a line in terms of the deployment of a working capital because inventory, you don't know how long you have to keep and you have to store it if you are getting it at the existing price. That is something unusual, right? Second, one thing we have to agree that overall, the paying capacity and the rotation of money in the market has gone definitely very high. And if you can see it from competition, the name what you are referring, what DOS they are operating. And the best of the customers are also delaying the payment. It is a cycle which is overall affecting like when you complete the cash generation. So if I really think of my first tenure of 2022 versus now, I think at least 30 to 60 days increase has been added in terms of rotation of money. And that's something affecting the working capital. But we are trying to manage. Our payables are also, in terms of our vendors, if you see, that is well managed, and they have been also supporting in terms of increasing their credit periods. So that's the situation so far, I think I can say that.

Yes, because I'm just thinking once your working capital kind of stabilizes, then all this cash flow can actually flow to shareholders, given that you don't -- sorry.

Last 6 months since the war began, in fact, one after another, the situation is really not stabilizing. And we really don't know how the situation will be and what measures one company has to take in terms of protecting their interest and how the shift will happen in terms of one market to other based on the situation. So I think let's wait and watch. Presently, what I explained is the ground reality.

Thank you, Rajeev. I think one comment from my side is, we look forward to these calls, and I think you must -- from what I know, and I track this company closely, is that you missed the half yearly call in 2024. It's very important for investors to speak to people like you, who obviously manage these companies.

I may have missed it, but I've not missed it with you, Abbas.

No. I think the benefit of these calls is that FSA has mandated companies to do 2 calls.

I appreciate, and you know the challenges what I was going through. There were certain changes in terms of the head changes. And that way, I think I was single-handedly taking care of the operations.

Yes. I think that...

That point is well under consideration.

Yes. And it will be -- it's good to touch base again after the second quarter numbers, right, the half yearly call, just where we stand, yes.

100%. Sorry, I think Shaoor has been waiting from Vision.

I must admit it's a very interactive session, and that helps a lot. A lot of my questions have already been answered from what Abbas has been asking you. A couple of more things. To start with, I'll begin with the regional dynamics. Now obviously, we know that imports and exports both to and from the region are now not as smooth as they were due to the ongoing conflict. My question is, is the region net importer or is it a net exporter? You mentioned that there's a 500 million square meter market for the whole GCC. And obviously, with the imports not coming in, it gives you and other players the opportunity to sell in the region. But obviously, with the regional players not being able to export, their inventory would also be there to sell. So just in terms of the overall numbers, is the region net importer? Or is it a net exporter? My question is, would the prices feel the pressure or not?

Can you repeat the last thing? I couldn't hear it properly. What's your question?

So my question is, is the GCC region a net importer of the ceramics and porcelain market? If so, then, okay, you guys will be able to sell and there will still be demand for excess capacity -- there won't be any excess capacity. But if the region is a net exporter, as you mentioned, there's a 500 million square meter demand, but also there are some producers as well, right, which export. So if the region is a net exporter, then we might see some pressure on the prices, because the exports are not really an option as it was before.

See, I think the situation is same for the years and years. If we talk about the previous years, earlier Chinese were dominating, then later on Indian companies took over the majority share. So the commodity segment is always dominated by the mass suppliers coming from where the price really drives your market. And in the first part of my answer to Abbas, I was actually explaining the same thing. If I position myself into the segment what you are talking, I definitely will be having a tremendous pressure all the time to look at my prices irrespective of what products we are trying to sell. So the competition, despite going for expansion, bigger size, value added, the generation of additional profit is missing only because the segmentation is poor and it is purely into commodity, where your value is getting dissipated just based on the prices. If I have to talk about Al Maha, I see very much a huge opportunity lying in upper middle and niche segment, where our brands are known for. And that way, it's a huge opportunity for us to carve our market share further in Oman as well as in UAE and whatever market we are talking.

Perfect. Great. My next question is regarding your porcelain plant. So we have seen OMR 800,000 close to sales from porcelain during 2025. And I believe that, that all belongs to the last quarter. You mentioned that now the Line 2 is opening, and you also mentioned that Al Hael started production in November. So this OMR 800,000 revenue is for the last 2 months of 2025. Is that correct?

No, it is not correct. The plant, if you see, it was started in 2025 beginning. It was in January. Then it operated till end of March -- middle of March. So it was 2.5 months there and around 2 months here. So it is around 3 to 4 months what we are talking about. But frankly speaking, you are looking at revenue, which is giving you OMR 800,000, but you have to understand one thing that the prices are around 2x, if not 2x, at least 1.5x higher than the ceramic. So if you translate this into square meter, the volume is around 5% of the total business. So that means our operation has been just negligible. I will not say that there is a significant. Yes, it is reflecting to OMR 800,000 because the average pricing is around OMR 2.5 to OMR 3 as compared to OMR 1.5 of ceramic. So if you sell 100,000 of ceramic versus if you sell 50,000 of porcelain, the value is same. So that way, it is reflecting. Going forward, if I am consistent on my production and also operations, you can see much higher numbers of revenue coming in, in terms of our growth.

Great. That really explains everything. My next question is regarding the market currently. So you mentioned that the quality standards that were, I believe, passed last year -- last quarter are now in implementation from the 1st of March. And obviously, the inventories from the cheaper imports before the anti-dumping duty, they are also close to the end. Is that correct? So if this is the case, my question is how easy is it is? Obviously, you mentioned that there are challenges in operating the Al Hael factory, but how easy it is to sell porcelain now in the market?

See, selling is not easy. And I think if you take any product, the competition will remain and challenges will remain, alternate products remain. So I will not say selling will become easy. I think the effect of these implementations, especially in Oman, will be seen only when the implementing authorities implement it with strictness like we have seen it happening in Saudi. So presently, we have to still wait and watch how the authorities are strictly implementing. And quality mark is something wherein it is a barrier wherein a company who wants to export to Oman will have to apply, go through a process, quality check and all and get that particular quality mark and also on the box and then it will be allowed. So that will give you some leverage in terms of having not only hurdles for cheap imports, but also time and the process, which will help competition to reduce. But I think as I told you, the competition still remains from UAE, RAK carrying a huge stock of 45 million square meters, and they are using Oman as a dumping ground at very, very cheap prices. Then Saudi, in fact, the prices you can't even think of, they are selling all across. So these things will remain. What can really sustain you is where you are creating your product positioning. That's what I am repeatedly saying that I'm not into those segments wherein these parameters are going to affect. I'm clearly looking at middle and upper segment of the market. And that's where I think when we are going on that segment, the competition is not so huge. You have to really deliver best quality, innovative products and also best of the services. So there, I think as far as Al Maha is concerned, I think we have a huge market. And that way, we can surely grow, not a problem.

Great. And my last question is, again, on Al Hael. As you mentioned that, obviously, the revenues will start coming in and you may make a small margin of, I believe, it's 3% to 4% based on 2025's numbers. You mentioned that the profit and dividend will not be coming in anytime soon. Do you have an estimation of how long will it take for Al Maha to -- or Al Hael actually to start reflecting or giving out dividends or profitability to be reflected in Al Maha's numbers? Any guess?

See, I think, to be honest, if Al Maha is selling the product which is billed to them and they are sharing the margin, so that margins, with the increased business, will come to Al Maha and your dividends and profitability from Al Maha will be reflected. Now coming to Al Hael, it is a long way to go. To be honest, the type of accrued interest and the legacy what we have taken in hand, I think it's not looking easy for me to say that, okay, 2 years or 3 years, I will be able to come back. So I think still we have to wait and watch how the things are going. And then I think I can give you an accurate answer. I will not like to go and give you just a guessing or something which I myself am not sure about it.

Rajeev, I just have an accounting question, a clarity actually. The fact that you've fully written off Al Hael, okay, and you're not recognizing any losses from Al Hael on your Al Maha books. Now if Al Hael were to make a profit, would you recognize the profit share and profit of associate on the books, or you can't just because you've impaired it fully?

You're talking about operating profit or net profit?

No, no. I'm talking about share in profit, right? It's an associate accounting, okay, which means under the equity method, you have to do share in profit of associate, profit or loss. In the case of Al Hael, you've fully written it off. So when Al Hael makes a loss, you don't recognize the share in loss of the associate. Now when Al Hael does turn around at some point, let's say, they make a quarterly profit, do you recognize share in profit of associate or you can't recognize this accounting and auditing wise?

Once our equity becomes positive, then we will work it out, recognize the profit.

Got it. So until the equity is not positive, you can't recognize profitability on your statement.

Yes.

Okay. Got it. And Al Hael, what's the retained losses right now?

Al Hael -- can you please repeat?

Yes, Al Hael, what's the retail losses on Al Hael's books?

It's under audit. They are working on it. Once finalized, then we will see.

Any other questions? Anybody else? With this, I think let's conclude the meeting. And thank you, everybody, for coming and attending this meeting. I hope we have been able to answer your questions. Anything I'll be happy to answer any point of time. And as I said that every quarter, we'll make sure that we create a platform where we can interact and can also showcase our way forward. Thank you so much, gentlemen. Thank you for attending.

Thank you.