Al Omaniya Financial Services SAOG (AOFS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, everybody. Okay. Let's go on to the first slide. Okay. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to this presentation session of Al Omaniya Financial Services. But today, we are going to talk about the audited financial accounts for the year ending 31st December 2024, which has already been polished, printed on the images, published in newspapers as well as available to all of you. I hope that we are trying to review and go through that. Now we'll take you briefly through the history of Al Omaniya Financial Services and the journey that we have come so far. As you know that we are a licensed institution by Central Bank of Oman under the Banking Law 1974 and amended thereafter. We were established in 1997. We started with a capital of OMR 3 million, 60% of which was contributed by the founding members and 40% was offered to public through IPO, which was oversubscribed 43x. Today the span of about 25, 27 years. We have reached a net worth of OMR 70 million approximately. This is a list of our esteemed Board members. There have been no significant changes as of last year. The Board was elected last year. So we have some very eminent people, bankers, administrators, management experts, entrepreneurs. So they bring a whole lot of wisdom and experience in advising the management and guiding laying down the policies and the direction and which -- from which we have all -- we, the management as well as the stakeholders have eventually benefited. We have been fortunate to have a management team which has been with us, most of them were more than 20 years, 25 years. So we are -- as I'm sitting here with our management team here and some of the members who have joined online, we have a cumulative experience of more than 100 years. And it shows that our commitment and passion that the entire team has brought to the company. We are about 151 employees. This is the management team that you are very well aware, there's been no change in the last decade or so. So as far as our products are concerned, we are well aware that we offer a range of both corporate and retail products. It's substantially focused on the corporate side of the business. Our corporate segment includes blue chip companies, large medium and corporate houses, family businesses and also proprietary concerns. Our product ranges from working capital loans, loans for buying plant and machinery, commercial, transport equipment. We also do a fair bit of bill discounting, debt factoring, project finance, bridge loans, construction loans for warehouses and factories. So this is on the corporate side, on the asset side of our balance sheet. On the retail, basically, we have what we call as the car financing business, which is all kinds of asset loans. Also, we have a micro finance product, consumer loans, which are basically for acquisition of white and brown goods. And this has been quite popular with our customer base. On the liability side, we do accept fixed deposits as per the rules put in by the Central Bank of Oman where only corporations are allowed to place deposits. Now over the last period few years, we have built a fair bit of brand. Our visibility has been very high. We've been rated as one of the popular brands. I don't know whether we have a slide here, but we have been rated as the Oman's most trusted brand in an independent survey voted by the people of Oman consequently for the last 3 years. And we are immensely proud of that achievement because that's very independent. That's what our customers and people in general say about Al Omaniya. We are immensely gratified and humbled by what the results of that survey. We have over 100,000 satisfied customers. We have grown consistently. And one of our unique attributes of the company is that we do have one of the lowest nonperforming loan percentage, which is also our provision cover is significantly higher. That being that we believe we take into account the fact that our exigencies of business, uncertainties in the worldwide economic environment, lending business is a long-term business. We get entrenched into the customers' financials. And therefore, I think we make it sure that we are reasonably provided -- well provided for all contingencies. And we have a very -- I mean, we're fortunate that the regulatory in Oman is one of the very robust and very well regulated environment that we work in. And from time to time, the regulation that are issued are in line with what is required. I think -- so overall, I think with the growth in the economy that is there, we are poised to take benefit from those growth opportunities. Now we want to give you a brief history of our dividend that we paid. We have been very fortunate that since the very first year of our incorporation when our first year ended on 31st December 1998. So from that year onwards, we have consistently paid dividend without -- and we have that unique distinction of have never missed a dividend. You can see the chart here that our dividend has been there every year, and it's been a cash dividend as well as other forms. And we're very gratified that our total dividend paid since inception of the company is in excess of OMR 0.500. And here, you can see on the chart that excepting for the year, COVID year where the dividend was low, has always been one of the significant pays of [indiscernible] in the country. We'd like to take you through briefly through the economic and fiscal -- I mean, State Oman. I think this is the -- for the year 2024 for which we are discussing the results, these were the basic assumptions on which the Omani budget was made. The average oil price assumed was $60 and the production assumed was about 1,031,000 barrels per day. Average price realization was 82 barrels, though the production was very marginally lower as a result of which our revenue was higher. And we did declare a budget surplus of OMR 540 million against the deficit projected of OMR 640 million. We actually ended up with a surplus of OMR 540 million, which is about 4%. And therefore we have been fortunate that the oil prices have been very steady. Our growth has been steady. We have been consistently declaring a surplus budget for the last couple of years. The fiscal policy of the country is extremely well managed, very, very stable. The country has paid off a lot of its debt, some of it much before time as a result of which now our fiscal deficit -- sorry, our debt has reduced to about 35%, 38% of the GDP, whereas in the COVID years, we had reached about 68%. Our rating has significantly gone up. We are there now. We are back to the investment grade almost. The outlook has been positive by most of the raters. Oman's GDP is also expected to grow by about 2.5% that's what our expectation is though the estimates are about 1.7% growth in 2024. However, at the current prices, we expect the GDP growth to be a little higher than 1.7%. Now Al Omaniya, public debt, as I already mentioned, has reduced to 30% -- 34% of the GDP from a high of about almost 68%. So I think looking at the world scenario that we went through, I think excepting for the geopolitical situation that we saw, by and large, the economies have been stable. Commodity prices after a spurt in 2020 have stabilized now, which augurs well for the Oman where we significantly depend on the oil and gas sector. Going for 2024, I think has been a reasonably good year for the economy as a whole. I think we haven't seen any distress either on the nonperforming loans or on the liquidity front. I think we have been -- and also, we have seen a lot of supply bottlenecks being removed. The availability of capital goods has substantially improved as compared to the previous 2 years. And therefore, we expect that going forward, we will -- should be a better year. However, considering what's currently happening on the tariffs laid down by the United States, all over the -- for all the countries. I think that is going to be a bit of uncertainty there. However, Oman, we don't expect any significant impact on Oman or on Al Omaniya because the oil and gas sector, energy is exempt from the tariff. And therefore, our non-oil imports are very limited. However, the fear that if this could cause a recession worldwide, this could then impact the demand for goods and services as a result of which we could also face certain challenges. But at this point in time, we seem to be quite not significantly impacted by what [indiscernible] around. Now we continue to be seriously dependent on the oil and gas. I think our GDP, a substantial part of the GDP still comes from the oil and gas. We are very -- I mean, it's very well that in the last 2 -- Vision 2020 and 2040, a significant emphasis has been laid down to diversify the economy away from the oil and gas. And we have got certain successes in several segments, both in the -- we have moved quite heavily into tourism, into -- then we're also moving into mining, into things like hydrogen energy where Oman is having a significant advantage. I think lots of investments have gone into that. And therefore, we believe that going forward, the efforts will pay off. Here is the rating scenario. We saw a decline from Aa1 in 2015, then we saw a steady deterioration in our rating going back to Ba3, same and currently, I think the look is -- outlook is positive, Ba1, BB+. There is appetite has returned back to the Omani debt. I think we're able to price our debt instruments very, very effectively, very conservatively. Our debt -- Omani debt, sovereign debt has been very well received. The debt instruments by the financial institutions have been very well received. We have seen some of the recent bond issues launched by major commercial banks have been oversubscribed and all have been priced at a very, very conservative pricing, which augurs well for the country. This graph is self-explanatory. We can see the debt to GDP climbing to a high in 2020 and there has been a very sharp decline thereafter, which shows a very positive way in which the debt and the fiscal health of the country is in very, very good shape. Our financial performance is already there on the website. And as we just present to you briefly, yes, we did see the COVID years where we saw a sharp decline. And also, we saw a sharp decline in the development expenditure in those years as a result of which the businesses like construction, infrastructure, equipment leasing took a severe hit. And we are fortunate that we took an early call to exit from some of these sectors as a result of which our performance has been consistent. And as you can see, excepting for the COVID years where our profit fell dramatically, but we still had -- I mean, we could still manage to pay a cash dividend and maintain effectively a liquidity of about $200 million plus in that year. So all in all, I think we have been -- our growth has been consistent, though conservative because we believe that we will only write quality business. And our business strategy as well as our business plan is such that to optimize the rewards for all the stakeholders and given the circumstances, I think we have been significantly one of the large dividend payers. Within this sector, we have been most of the times, the top dividend payer, thanks to our NPL ratios as well as our liquidity. The regulator has allowed us to pay almost 80% of our earnings as dividend, cash dividend. 2024 ended on a reasonable note, though there was a marginal decline in income. That's basically because of our interest earnings spread because we lend a little more competitive way. We also to underwrite some new clients, very blue-chip clients where the -- obviously, the margins were lower, but the quality was good. As a result of which our total income was about OMR 15 million against OMR 15.6 million, just about OMR 500,000 lower than the last year. Interest expense obviously was marginally higher. We all went through an interest rate cycle. The net installment income, finance income was about OMR 8.5 million. Other income was almost constant about OMR 1.7 million. Operating expenses are up by about 4%. We had a considerable saving on the provisions for bad and doubtful debts, which declined from OMR 2,557,000 as a result of which our net profit before tax grew by 11.75% over last year, and income tax was marginally higher given that our income -- net income was higher. And therefore, our net profit was OMR 3,568,958 as compared to OMR 3,201,312, which resulted in a growth of 11.48%. Statement of comprehensive income, as you see, OMR 110,000 was the movement in the hedge that we have taken against our dollar borrowings, which resulted in a temporary gain, which will -- this gain will get negated in the next year. And as a result of which final profit comes to OMR 3,662,000 against OMR 3.2 million, which is a growth of 14.41% or 15%. Our balance sheet, as you clearly see that we have focused on liquidity that has been a very important consideration. It has allowed us 2 things. It has allowed us to borrow at a significantly lower price. It has allowed us a lot of flexibility. It has allowed us the scope to launch into, I mean, acquire new clients. And therefore, I think -- and it has not harmed us in any way that we are not paying any price or a premium to retain this liquidity with the company. And our deposit with Central Bank of Oman is constant at OMR 250,000. This is as per the regulation as required by the Central Bank of Oman. Our loans and advances were OMR 124 million against OMR 127 million. This was a very cyclical decline because some of the large corporates whose loans mature have paid off, then they will also avail of those facilities in the next quarter. Now having said that, the total assets are by and large, same, OMR 220 million against OMR 214 million in the year 2024. This is the liability side. You can see we have moved a little bit higher on the short-term loans. The short-term loans are bridged by the deposits that we have, deposits that we have placed with the banks as a result of which we do not have any significant mismatch or risk of short-term loans and long-term -- short-term borrowing and long-term lending. That risk has been bridged by our strategy. We do not have any significant mismatch here. Our term loans are by and large steady from OMR 35 million to OMR 21 million. The convertible bonds, as you see, are appearing lower because part of this convertible bonds were then converted into equity as a result of which you can also see that the -- going forward, the equity capital has marginally gone up as also because they were converted at a premium, also the share premium account has also gone up. The nonconvertible bonds are at OMR 2.993 million. This represents 2 issues that we have made so far as part of the dividend. As we talked, we were the only company approved by Central Bank of Oman up to last year to issue nonconvertible redeemable bonds as dividend. And as and when they come, they are issued for a tenure of 5% with a coupon of also 5%. And as and when they mature, they will be redeemed for cash. So that has been also a very important aspect of Al Omaniya that we have been in the forefront of innovation. We were one of the first to issue convertible bonds as dividend. We're one of the very first to issue the nonconvertible bond as dividend. We also issued much early in our existence significant amount of convertible bonds [ during ] so that it does not impact the equity servicing. As a result of which, our net worth is close to OMR 70 million now. You can see here, as I spoke earlier, the share capital has marginally gone up. That is a result of the conversion of convertible bonds, which were issued earlier as dividend into equity. So the share capital is now OMR 31.5 million. Share premium has also gone up marginally by about OMR 400,000. Legal reserve is adequate as required by the regulation, as to 1/3 of the capital. We have created about QAR 5 million special reserve for nonperforming assets. And this is a cash flow hedge that we had shown in the -- our income statement. Retained earnings have marginally gone up, and therefore, the total equity now is about OMR 68 million and which gives a net assets per share of OMR 0.215. Now this analysis is from the figures published. These are from the audited figures published by the various -- our peers and nonperforming loans as published by all the companies are the figures. Al Omaniya, OMR 3.7 million. You have our -- I wouldn't like to take this name, but it's very clear here, OMR 84 million, OMR 42 million, OMR 17 million and OMR 54 million. Provision, including special reserves, we have OMR 20 million, OMR 70 million and so on. Important factor here is nonperforming loans as a percentage of our total lending assets, which is a good measure of the quality of business, a good measure of the -- our ability to lend significantly with a low risk appetite and also manage our debt collection in a very effective manner. Our nonperforming loans are 2.67% as compared to 31%, 15% and 17%. Our NPL coverage is very, very high, which means that we are able to manage any contingencies, unforeseen contingencies, economic downturns, economic impacts, whatever could be thrown at us, we have a significantly large cushion to manage. And therefore, what I would like to really speak here to you is that we have a tremendously sustainable business model. Now what this gives you is that our earnings are steady. They can be very well predicted. We are cocooned from the economic shocks by and large, because of the kind of provisions that we maintain. I'll just go back to the previous slide. And our net NPLs are 3.3%. Now apart from creating this sustainability, stability, predictability, what has also happened is that because of this level of provisioning, we have been very fortunate that the regulators have allowed us to pay 80% of our profit as cash dividend. Otherwise, it is capped between 40% to 50% for the rest of the financial institutions who do not have a large provision. And that's a very big advantage to us. It also reduces our cost of borrowings and so on and so forth. Here is a very historic going back to what we have actually done with the shareholders' resources that were entrusted to us. You can see we launched Al Omaniya in 1997 with a capital of OMR 3 million. Then we had a rights issue of share of 2 million that was required because the minimum capital was raised by the regulator from OMR 3 million to OMR 5 million. And thereafter, to fund the business growth in 2004, we had a rights issue where shareholders contributed OMR 2.9 million. 2008, we had a rights issue again of OMR 9.9 million or OMR 10 million. Then bonds, we had twice -- 3 times we raised bonds. The total resources or the cash contributed by the shareholders so far in the last 28 years is OMR 43 million. Now the net profit earned till December by the company till December 2024 is OMR 87.3 million out of which we have issued stock shares of a total of 27%. Cash dividend paid so far to the shareholders, OMR 59 million; stock nonconvertible bonds issued OMR 4.5 million; stock convertible bonds, OMR 15 million; total dividend paid OMR 83.938 million. So that is a dividend payout ratio averaging 96%. Total dividend paid 505% and the current net worth of the company share is about OMR 0.212. So that speaks for our consistency. We have been fortunate with the policies of the government of Oman, the business environment and the management and staff team that we have, very forward-looking Board that we have, where we have -- also have a consistent group of shareholders. Our shareholding pattern hasn't gone through any significant change. And that is the result of all this that today we have a very record that we are really proud of. Obviously, this budget has been formulated in the month of November, December. Oman's budget has taken an assumed oil price of $60. We are still around that oil price. I think it's almost the kind of breakeven level or at $60, maybe a marginal deficit. However, we are till the end of first quarter, almost end of March, we have seen average oil prices substantially higher. And if that were to continue for the entire year, we'll still have a surplus budget for the year. Al Omaniya budget will be surplus. Last year, we saw a surplus of OMR 540 million, which is almost more than $1 billion. And this year also, if the oil prices remain at the level what we saw in the first quarter, we expect it to have a surplus. As we earlier said that we do not -- we will not have any significant impact on the new tariff regime imposed by the United States on all the countries. And therefore, I think anyway, the energy is exempt. And so our non-oil exports are about USD 450 million. And at a 10% tariff on all the countries, it becomes a kind of a level playing field. So we really don't see any significant impact. However, with some of the trade wars going on, if there is a recession, if there is a recession worldwide, yes, then I think the consumption will come down as a result of which energy consumption will also come down as a result of which oil prices could soften. And that's what the aspect that we really need to worry about. However, we are well provided. We have significantly large liquidity, and we are -- our buffers are very, very high, both for liquidity and provisioning. We have a very loyal, large customer base. So we don't -- we will not be very highly negatively impacted even if the conditions were -- economic conditions were doing -- get impacted. I talked about this earlier, ladies and gentlemen, this is the third year in succession that Al Omaniya has been voted as Oman's most trusted nonbanking financial company. We understand that we have been voted by a significantly large majority of the voters. This is an independent survey conducted by Apex publications who publish Muscat Daily as well as Business Today, et cetera. And we are really grateful to all the people who have shown so much trust in the products and services that we offer. Gentlemen, I think we have done a brief presentation now. I would request anybody who has a question to kindly identify themselves and their organization and state the question and do not -- let's not have a long commentary, but let's get down to the questions. Thank you.

Anybody who has a question?

Yes. Am I audible, sir?

No, you're not clear. Can you be a little loud?

Is it better now?

Yes go ahead.

Okay. Congratulations on a great set of results. Sir, my question relates to your change in interest expense. So you mentioned that there has been an increase in the interest expense last year, while there has been a decline in your interest income from leases. Now the decline is on the basis of a decline in the overall leased number, which we can see in the balance sheet as well. So my question is that you mentioned that Al Omaniya has been very -- has been lending in a very safe manner, and that has led to decline. Okay, understandable. But the increase in interest rates is what I'm confused about because during the last year, the interest rate themselves have decreased by 1%. So what led to this increase in interest cost?

What really happened was we -- the increase in the interest cost that you see is as a result that we did see some liquidity concerns with the lending institutions overall, right? And we didn't have a liquidity issue. But then some of the lenders did experience some capital adequacy and liquidity issue. As a result, we had seen a marginal increase in the -- also because of the fact that some of these banks were paying us higher amounts on the -- on our deposits, therefore, the borrowing was structured -- some of this borrowing is structured as the deposit minus x right? So when the deposits -- when we did negotiate a higher rate on the deposit, some of the borrowing costs also went up. But what we really see there is that the impact is such that the net income was actually still growth. If you see our net profit, about OMR 500,000 was the increase in the interest cost. And however, we have seen that we still managed to increase our net profit by about 14% or 15%.

That is true, sir. But you see on an operating level, you have -- your income is declining. I guess the increase in net profit can be attributed to the lower impairment expense. And so going forward, as we expect the interest rates to either remain at the current levels of what they are or even decrease if the situation on the international level eases, should we be expecting a decline in the interest cost going further if the interest rates go down or because of the arrangement that you mentioned, the decline in interest rates won't benefit.

One of the reasons, of course, is arrangements that we have. But overall, it doesn't impact us because our finance income also does go up. However, the point on the -- what you call is the provisions or the -- for nonperforming loans or bad and doubtful debt, that is based on an IFRS model, which has to be duly approved by the regulators as well as with the auditors. So it's not -- that is actually a real cost. So whenever your book improves, right, your cost comes down. So that is not something that in our control. So we have to go by the models that you have, what has been in -- what is required, provisions have to be done, has to be done. In case in any year, you need low provisions, that's simply because the -- our lending does not warrant a provision at that point in time.

Great, perfect. That makes sense. And because of the prudent lending, we have seen that Al Omaniya's cost of provisioning has been lower than the sector, which is good. Now going forward, we have seen that you have a huge amount of cash balance sitting on your balance sheet, and you said that you leverage this to get good loans from the banks. Going forward, what is your outlook on the lease book growth or the loan book growth as Al Omaniya has been very prudent in deploying funds. How do you expect Al Omaniya's loan book to grow in the future?

So our estimate for the 2025 is that we are expecting a growth of between 8% and 15% because we -- what we are doing, we are focusing a little more on the retail now as well as on the SMEs, high-end SMEs, et cetera, and of course, the large corporates. Now what you have to really see here is that how -- what is the expectation on the growth of the GDP in the country, right? The expected growth is about 2%, right? And we will remain satisfied so long we grow a little higher than the GDP because as you see, it's easy to lend. Lending is probably one of the easiest business if you don't really are worried about that -- how the monies will be repaid, right? So what we call is that we like to lend a policy, what we call as within the box. We like to remain within the box. Our box defines what are the credit parameters that we look for. At the end of the day, any loan goes bad, that one bad loan, you need about 100 good loans to recover that bad loan. So we will continue to be conservative, but we will not lose sight of the fact that we have to reward every single stakeholder. Our business strategy and our business plan is such a manner that we will always strive and create value for each and every of the shareholder, what we have been doing over the last 28 years. Now for the year 2024, which we discussed, you know that we announced a dividend of 14%, which is 9% cash. If you look at the banking space, banking and nonbanking space, we have consistently been the second highest dividend payers after Bank Muscat excepting this year that we are the third. Otherwise, I mean -- so what I'm saying is that this conservative policy is actually paying off. Merely, we're not going to be enamored merely by growth in the book. I showed you some of the figures on the nonperforming loans, which runs into OMR 50 million, OMR 70 million, OMR 80 million and so on with an NPL ratio going as high as 30% -- 25%, 30%. So that is something -- what we are saying is that our strategies are a very optimized wholesale strategy where we look at every single stakeholder. We are not going to grow at the cost of any stakeholder. What we assure you because of the provisioning that we have, the liquidity that we have, our earnings will be consistent and sustainable. I think Mr. Kothari had some question. Go ahead, Mr. Kothari. Are you still there, Mr. Kothari? Am I audible?

Yes, we can hear you Aftab. We can hear you.

Okay, all right.

Yes message is there. One message.

Just see what is that message. Can you bring up that message?

What is the loan book growth outlook compared to other FLCs, AFS was the only one whose loan book degrew.

That's right. I think I've answered that question in the previous one. This year, we are expecting our estimated to grow between 8% to 15% on the loan book both on the corporate and the retail side. It is too early now to take a call. We just ended the first quarter. I think by end of the year, that's what we plan to believe. However, we will ensure that our earnings are sustainable and consistent. If anybody has a question, just go ahead. We still have some time. So we are still online. Gentlemen, if any of you think of any question, please go ahead. We are happy to clarify, answer and provide any explanation that you want. [ Mr. Shaur ] go ahead.

Yes, sir. I'm sorry. If there are no more questions, I'd like to ask a couple of more questions. With respect to the cash deposit that you have on your balance sheet of OMR 85 million. I wanted to ask what is the nature of this deposit? Is it the short term? Is it the long term? And secondly, if we expect the interest rates to decline, how soon would this deposit be impacted versus the loans that you gave out would be impacted in line with the decrease in interest rates?

A substantial part of the deposits are structured in a manner as a long-term deposits. But we also have the ability and the right, the way it has been negotiated and structured. If required, we could recall this deposit at any point in time after, say, 3 months or 6 months, is a minimum period. After that, we have the right to recall. Otherwise, the tenure could be between 1 to 4 years, right? And against this deposit, we are also allowed to borrow if need be. Having said that, in spite of these deposits and the loan book that we have, we still have a substantial banking facility available to us if the business growth so requires. It's not that we are completely dependent on the deposits to make any further lending. We still have unutilized facilities available to draw upon if there is need to grow. In a scenario that the rates would fall, let's say, the deposit rates would fall, we also will see a fall in the borrowing side. So by and large, we will be neutral to what happens on the interest rate scenario in relation to the deposits.

Right. And on your financing side or your leases side, your loan side are also neutral to what would happen -- this impact on the lease loans would also cancel out?

What will really happen is, by and large, the retail lending, we generally do not have the ability to increase the rates if the overall rates were to go up because all the repayments are structured through post-dated cheques. They're not structured through a deduction or from the account like in a banking scenario because we don't get the -- we don't have what you call the ability to have a savings account or a current account, et cetera. So we depend basically on the post-dated cheques. If the rates go up, we cannot really do much. However, on the corporate side, right, and fortunately our corporate portfolio is close to 60% plus. We do have the ability to increase the rates when the rates significantly go up in the market.

Right. And in the event that interest rates go down, do they -- corporates have the ability to negotiate it downward with you guys?

You see what happens is they do have the ability certainly because -- any corporate will have the right to repay the loan, right? So if we are not matching the rates properly, structuring it, there is a very substantial fall and the rates are very high, whatever the terms of the loan, such loans are, the corporate would pay you off and then you lose the corporate forever. But unless there is a very significant fall, we do not adjust the rates for marginal falls. But suppose now, let's say, there's a very significant fall of 25%, 30%, then maybe some of the corporates might talk to us and say, we need to have a look at it to reduce the rate. And so is the case with our lenders also. I mean, if the rates fall, we do go back to the banks and the rates do get reduced. And the banks will also have the right and ability to increase the rates, what the rates to go up.

All right, sir. My final question is related to this -- the deposit that you have. You mentioned that you have additional lines available with the bank if it were not for this OMR 85 million deposit that's sitting on your balance sheet. Now my question is that, obviously, you have this deposit on which the company is earning something and that earning is also taxable. Against that, you have taken a loan which is against you are paying for finance cost on it, some finance cost. And I'm assuming that if a bank is dealing in this way, this deal would be structured in a way that is beneficial to the bank and not to someone who is taking the loan and giving deposit back. Is it the case? And if it is so, wouldn't it make sense to pay off this number, which is incurring you a negative spread? Or is my assumption wrong and the spread is actually positive?

Actually, I mean, you know what, it all depends upon what kind of strategy you have, how smartly you negotiate. Therefore, I would like to say that your assumption that you made is incorrect, right? If were -- net-net, if we were to lose or be negative, I mean, you had to really be very like it wouldn't make any sense for us to retain the deposits. Deposit makes sense that has been continuing for the last so many years and we are able to leverage on the deposits. And as I said, I think earlier to you more than once that we don't pay a premium or a penalty for maintaining those deposits. But I'm not able to tell you exactly what is the structure because that's again something that is not in the public domain.

Perfect. It makes sense. Thank you very much.

You're welcome. Which company do you represent?

I'm [ Shaur ] I'm from Vision Capital.

Vision Capital. Okay. All right. We still have a few minutes. We'll be on the line up to 4:00 sharp. We'll close the session at 4:00. I think we are going to close. Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for joining this session and hearing us patiently. And I hope that we have answered some of the queries that you raised. Thank you very much. And we now are at the end of the session, and we'll now close this presentation. Thank you very much.