Alma Media Oyj (ALMA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this results session of Alma Media's Full Year 2020. My name is Elina Kukkonen. I'm responsible of the communications and brand here at Alma. We'll begin with the presentation shortly, and our CEO, Mr. Kai Telanne, will first -- will be first on stage, and he will present the overall results of the 2020 and the performance of our 3 business segments. After Kai, our CFO, Mr. Juha Nuutinen, will come up with the financial position of Alma Media today. And then after that, Kai will return with the operating environment and our strategy going forward and the outlook for the year 2021. And we also have the time for the questions and answers, and you're very welcome to present any questions online. And first, we will take the questions from the conference call line and then the online questions after that. I think we're ready to start. So please, Kai, the stage is yours or the camera is yours. Welcome.

Thank you, Elina, and good morning, everybody. We have also all our segment leaders here. So if you have any questions to pose for them, don't hesitate. They are more than ready to answer your questions. As we all know, we had quite a peculiar year behind us. Difficult times, but we survived. We survived actually quite well. In the first half of the year, it was about surviving and defending profitability. And then the last part of the year was more about how to come out from the crisis, how to secure the future development of the company, how to invest in those important sectors and parts of our businesses to secure the growth of the company. As we all know, the second quarter was the most difficult, and the heaviest decline in every market of ours, especially in the Central European recruitment markets, were declining heavily that continued also during the third quarter. But during the fourth quarter, markets started to pick up and the visibility started to clear a bit. And that's been very, very good also for us. But the end result for the year was, as seen in this slide, our revenues declined 15 -- or EUR 20 million and profitability, EBIT, EUR 5 million, which means that we were quite able to mitigate the decline of the revenues coming from -- mainly from recruitment, advertising and domestic, I mean, Finnish display advertising. I'm really happy that the effectiveness of the company has remained stable and on a very healthy level. Our EBIT percent stayed at 2019 level, at almost 20%, which is a very good sign and a good sign of the agility of the company and its personnel to move and act when necessary. That's been the way of Alma for years. Our earnings per share from continuing operations were EUR 0.33. Company is very healthy. Its financial position is good. We have ample room for future strategic investments, and we are eager to do them as well. Our Board's dividend proposal for AGM is EUR 0.30 per share. As told, the main reason for revenue decline was the recruitment sales to continue to fall, and that was also weighing our profitability during the last quarter. Other businesses developed smoothly to a right direction. Really happy that the Finnish advertising market started to pick up. We gained market share. Our development was better than the market development. Alma Talent, Alma Consumer in -- profitability-wise developed favorably. The decline of profitability came from Alma Markets, where we had also new investments into product development and marketing in order to secure this year's profitability, revenue development and new initiatives. For the full year, Alma Markets revenue declined roughly EUR 12 million, of which roughly EUR 7 million fell down to the EBIT line. That was the main contributor to the decline of Alma's profitability last year. Alma Talent performance was extremely good. All the parts of Alma Talent developed favorably. And as we can see from this slide, EUR 1.4 million increase in profitability with the decline of almost EUR 8 million revenues was extremely good job. And also, for the Alma Consumer segment, I would say that very good defense play in a difficult market. Corona attacking us heavily, but with the good moves inside this segment, we were able to defense the profitability, as said. Digital advertising or digital business is the strategic importance of ours. 69% of revenues last year from digital sources. Heavy decline, as seen from the right side of the slide, of 18% during the second quarter, slightly picking up during the third quarter and on a positive side on fourth quarter. Our digital advertising was growing, was it around 5% or something, in Finland during fourth quarter. And the sales of recruitment advertising going to the right direction as well. Now I will take the key numbers and initiatives of different business segments. And after this, our CFO, Juha Nuutinen, will continue with the financials, with the balance sheet. And then after that, I will continue again with our strategic initiatives. I'll start from the Alma Markets, which is the biggest -- was the biggest contributor still of our profitability. This is the international spearhead of company. Unfortunately, the decline, as said, in recruitment continued, but a very nice rebound of marketplaces in Finland. As we -- as you have heard from the news, houses and premises sector, there's a huge demand of accommodations, houses in Finland, lack of supply. And due to this or partly due to this, our business in Etuovi.com, Vuokraovi.com and related services has developed very favorably, all-time high revenues and profitability as well as Autotalli, our car service and our related services, this kind of comparison services like AutoJerry, they are doing extremely well. So the decline came from the recruitment service. The revenue is 11% down, but profitability on a quite decent level, I would say, the Alma Markets EBITDA around 40% for the full year, the EBIT around 35%, which is not a bad achievement in a very difficult year, I would say. We increased -- as said, increased our marketing and product development costs. During the fourth quarter, we launched like our Seduo learning platform created in LMC in Czech Republic. We launched it in Slovakia. We are launching that in Finland as well. And similar kind of new initiatives going on in order to guarantee that the businesses are growing nicely as planned. The other -- the second segment, Alma Talent, the business-to-business part for professionals in Finland, Sweden and Baltics, very good performance, especially in digital sales, services and advertising, the advertising growing nicely during the last quarter, extremely good performance in digital content sales for the whole year and a nice growth and very nice, new initiatives around the digital services like different kind of data and information services in Finland. Revenue went down 6.5%. But without the discontinued operations, 5% up, which is an extremely good achievement in a declining market as we had in Finland and Sweden. Very strong digital content sales of Kauppalehti and other talent services of 42%. Really happy and glad that advertising picked up and exceeded comparable year's level, especially in finance and car advertising sectors. Very effective operations. Adjusted operating profit of Talent increased more than 17%; and excluding the divested businesses, close to 30%. I think this is extremely good performance and achievement. Alma Talent as a segment, as a group, is, by the end of the year, at a very healthy profitability level of 21.5%. And as you noticed, we did a series of investments at the end of the year. I have a slide of those later in this presentation, so I won't go through them now. But there were new initiatives also inside the Talent group, especially on the service side. Last but not least, Alma Consumer. Last quarter of last year, a very nice recovery of digital advertising, which was the key element for good profitability development. Revenue on -- close to last year's level. Digital advertising was the key. We have had a nice recovery of programmatic buying. Automotive retail industry have gained market share in many areas. Unfortunately, the content sales of Iltalehti, the single-copy sales, due to a heavy lockdowns of travel industry, for example, is the reason behind a heavy decline of the market. Our market share has been around the same as before. But on the other hand, the digital consumption of media and other services as well has continued to grow, and Iltalehti's reader base page views have stayed on a high level. There's a growth of 15%, which is, of course, a very important part also for the advertising sales for the last year and for coming months and years. Adjusted operating profit nicely almost 40% up for consumer segment. Last, quarter's profitability, 20.2%, which is more than we expected. So these were the key numbers of last year and the full year 2020. Now Juha Nuutinen will continue with the balance sheet issues, the financial position. And after that, I will continue with the strategic and the outlook. The floor is yours.

Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Kai, and good morning. This financial position, now I go through the changes in our net debt situation and also some comments about our cash flow and earnings per share in -- shortly. We have a solid financial position at the end of December. However, there was a quite big change in our net debt level like you can see on the left. Our net cash position is EUR 9 million at the moment, and there was a change of EUR 55 million. And this comes from the acquisitions, what we made in December for Alma Mediapartners and DIAS, mainly. Our equity ratio is 63%, so we have a strong balance sheet still. We have interest-bearing liabilities around EUR 39 million, and this is -- fully comes from the leasing liabilities. And the leasing liabilities is coming from the rental agreements from our premises. Cash flow, we have -- still -- despite our decreased profit, we have still strong cash flow. The decrease, which you can see from the graph, comes from the discontinued operations but also decreased profit. But still, EUR 50 million operating cash flow in this first -- of last quarter this -- last year was pretty strong. Like said, we have a quite big investment amount in last quarter, and this comes from the acquisition of the shares in Alma Mediapartners. Now we are fully 100% owner of that company, which operates in the Finnish marketplace business. And also, we acquired shares for DIAS, and our ownership for that company is -- at the moment is 80%. And also, when you look at the acquisitions row, there is EUR 81 million, and we have also booked in our balance sheet our reservations for additional purchase prices, which comes -- and related to DIAS as well. We have a pretty good situation from goodwill point of view, and there we don't see any impairment risk in that sense in our balance sheet. Our operating CapEx level was last year EUR 3.6 million, which is pretty much the level what we have seen for years now. It's -- we are operating with around EUR 4 million CapEx level on annual basis. The slides -- we have show you this slide before also, and this tells you our revenue invoicing status in Czech Republic concerning LMC. We have discussed that -- and informed you that there will be some -- because of this revenue recognition principles, we've seen -- also in the first half year this year, we see some decrease in our recruitment revenue, and this graph tells you it -- why. When the COVID started in March last year, you can see that -- how the invoicing dropped down and then it continued the whole year. But, like you can see, the recovery has been happened and our invoicing levels has been increasing. And we have now a pretty good situation when we start this year. But however, this drop down in invoicing will affect our revenue in the first half this year. It's around EUR 1.5 million negative effect to our revenue this year. And because we are showing in -- this invoicing in our revenue in between 6 to 12 months' time period, so that's the reason and that's why we have noted. And it effects also in our guidance this year. But what is good situation here is the growing invoicing amount, and the situation is clearly recovering. And then dividend per share and earnings per share. We have earnings per share around EUR 0.33 per share last year for continuing operations. But this EUR 1.13, of course it's -- it belongs -- includes also the capital gain of regional media, and around EUR 0.80. Our suggestion to annual meeting is -- our Board suggestion to annual meeting is EUR 0.30. There is a EUR 0.10 decrease compared to last year. And -- yes. But overall, this -- and you can see also the operating cash flow. We have nearly EUR 0.70 operating cash flow -- percent. So we still have really strong cash flow from our operating activities. If we look at the long-term financial targets, last year was pretty difficult to our digital growth. We end up in a minus 5%. But like Kai told you earlier, the last quarter was positive, so we are in a good recovery stage at the moment. But of course, last year was -- revenue from this digital business growth point of view and behind -- we are behind the long-term target level, naturally. Our return on investment was 37%, and it's high level, but it comes from -- mainly from the gain of -- capital gain from regional media sales. And this dividend payout, this 27%, is low figure because it's EUR 0.33 -- EUR 0.30 divided to our EUR 1.13, so -- because we are comparing it to the whole earnings per share figure, which includes also the regional media sales. The dividend level is -- it's lower. We want to keep enough M&A headroom for this and the coming years, and that's why the dividend is slightly lower than the last year level. So that was a short and quick review on our balance sheet and cash flow. And Kai continues with the operating environment.

Yes. Thank you very much, Juha. As Juha told you, the obvious question is that why is the dividend proposal EUR 0.10 less than last year, and the obvious answer is that company has a very good plan, strategic plan, and the Board wants to leave room for major strategic investments that we are, of course, willing to do. So that is the clear answer to that. But before we go to different kind of strategic initiatives, I want to give a little bit of light to the forecast and the view of underlying markets and development. We are a little bit disappointed, of course all of us, of the current speed of vaccination program, especially in Finland but all over Europe. Must say it hasn't gone as planned or waited for. But there is light at the end of the tunnel, I would say. The current forecasts are saying that the recovery has started, and the current forecasts for those markets where we are present are looking like this. The Finnish newest forecast expects a 2.8% GDP growth for this year and 2% for the following year. And as we can see from the other columns here, the same goes with other countries as well but with a higher speed, which is, of course, a very good basis for our planning and business development. But on the other hand, from this figure, we can estimate that it takes maybe 2 years before reaching the 2019 all-time record high level. But nevertheless, the change has happened. Despite the heavy lockdowns in every market and quite difficult situation with the coronavirus, the businesses are doing quite okay. So the societies are open, the markets are working and our invoicing in all countries, in all markets are increasing. So the business is going to a right direction. So we don't need to change the plan that we have in place. We can continue with the strategic initiatives and with the plan that we have for every market. Luckily in Finland also, the Finnish advertising market, which is, of course, important for us, its importance has been decreasing with the other services to develop and increase. But still, it's very important. That's why we have to follow this carefully. For us, the digital advertising market is, of course, the most important for now and in the future. It's been growing or it is growing as our digital advertising. The newspaper advertising is still on a negative side. It's picking up from the very demanding spring that we had 2020, but it's still on a negative side. And because of this, the overall market state on a slightly negative last year. There's no big changes in market shares in Finland. But we are waiting for the advertising market of Finland to pick up and to recover and to develop favorably. The first part or the first quarters might be difficult. We have to remember that 2020, January, February, were quite good. So we have very difficult comparables there. But from March on, the comparables are easier and the growth should happen as we expect. Okay. So okay-ish view on the market. Difficult winter, better spring, hopefully. After the summer, we have had the vaccinations done, hopefully, and markets more or less normalizing, hopefully. I want to say a few words about our strategy and then, of course, outlook for the year. I want to remind you of our key elements of the strategy. The first one is, of course, to continue with the transformation of core publishing business and other businesses as well. Like nowadays, our marketplaces, like in recruitment, I would say that those are our core businesses, but we are transforming them to more leveraged, diversified HR businesses like recruitment business or leveraging our business to different kind of houses and living businesses. In order to accelerate the digitalization, we need to have and get all the synergies that is available in the organization. That's why we are all the time looking at the new ways of doing cooperation, looking at the way of organizing the cooperation. I will come later to that as well. The cooperation is the key. We have -- inside the group, we have all the necessary capabilities to succeed in the future, but we don't have all the capabilities in every business unit. We have to do cooperation in order to use all the group-level skills. Of course, as you know, we are quite keen on divesting or closing unprofitable businesses and use the resources to new ones and profitable ones. The second part of our strategy is, of course, to grow in digital services or other digital businesses. So we are diversifying, leveraging our businesses from media to marketplaces and different kind of digital services. We have many examples of this kind of improvements inside housing and living sector, inside mobility services, different kind of comparison services, inside the Talent and so on. But we will mainly concentrate on these kind of businesses that we can get synergy with other current businesses. We will diversify current core businesses in those value chains to new business areas like we have done in Career segment to -- from core recruitment verticals to new staffing businesses or education services or whatever. And of course, we have to have the capabilities, especially digital capabilities, in place to do this. And then the third part of our strategy is to continue with the internationalization of the company to leverage the business into new areas, to leverage the businesses in current areas, geographical areas, and we have the resources to do this. Of course, this will balance our portfolio so that we are not that dependent on one single market like Finnish market, which has had the tendency to grow slower than neighboring economies like Sweden after the crisis. So that's been a very important part of our strategy, to increase the growth, to keep the pace by internationalizing, to -- diversifying the portfolio to foreign countries with a -- having the slow Finnish economy in mind. So these are the main points of the transformational strategy. And all the maneuvers, the initiatives, acquisitions, divestments and so on are done inside this kind of strategic framework. What are we then doing? If you have a little bit closer look without going into details, the main idea is to combine top-of-the-mind, market-leading media and content with top-of-mind, first-class, market-leading digital platforms and services like we have inside home and living sector like Etuovi.com, Vuokraovi.com, Muuttomaailma; like we have in cars and mobility, AutoJerry, Autotalli.com and so on; and like we have in recruitment in 10 countries like we have in Alma Talent in Finland, Sweden and the Baltic countries. Different kind of combinations of high-quality media with high-quality digital services for different kind of interesting areas of people's lives. And of course, one of the key element in order to use all this combination is the data that we are collecting and getting with the high usage of media, with the high reach and daily usage of the leading media brands that we have, especially in Finland. With the development of the portfolio of the company, while the business is evolving to digital service side, we are -- we have planned to organize this company a bit differently in order to intensify the development in the most important sectors of Alma Media. And in order to do that, we do a renewal of our segment reporting and, at the same time, of course, the organization, the way of organizing and leading the company. From 1st of March, we are doing the business in 3 segments, as we had before, but a little bit different combination of businesses inside those segments. The first one is Alma Career, which will concentrate on international HR recruitment-related services. The core of the business is, of course, the traditional recruitment verticals, but we are leveraging the business to different kind of staffing on demand and different kinds of managed HR-related career building services. That segment is led by Vesa-Pekka Kirsi, who's been the leader of Alma Markets, the previous Alma Markets segment. The size of the segment is here on the left side, EUR 63 million of revenues, on a very healthy profitability level, 100% digital business. So Vesa-Pekka will continue pushing this part of the business forward, investing in new things and taking care of the very profitable core recruitment business. The second segment is our business-to-business part, media and business services for professionals led by Juha-Petri Loimovuori. EUR 95 million, half of the business -- digital business, on a healthy profitability level. This business is leveraging from traditional media and print media to digital media and more and more from media to services. So we are -- or we have investigated digital services. We have invested in new digital services, and we will continue in investing different kind of digital services like business-to-business marketplaces, different kind of data services or information services inside the business-to-business area. And third segment will be a new Alma Consumer, Finland-concentrated consumer business, market-leading digital media and top-of-mind, market-leading consumer verticals like houses and premises and living, cars and mobility, and different kind of comparison services that we have already in place like Etua.fi and so on. EUR 70 million of revenues, healthy profitability, 70% (sic) [ 75% ] of digital services. And as you can see from this slide, now -- from now on, we have quite a balanced portfolio of different businesses of media, fully digital services and a combination of those to run for the future. So this will be the way of the segment reporting for -- from now on, from the 1st of March actually. A few examples of latest transactions that we did at the end of the year. In Alma Mediapartners, which is now, like Juha told you, fully owned by Alma Media, we acquired the remaining shares of Mediapartners, and now that part of the business is inside the Alma Consumer group. We acquired 1/5 of Bolt, which is a tech company specializing in staffing services. And that is an example of the way -- or the direction that we are aiming at to leverage the career business in Finland and abroad. And then a third example is Alma DIAS, which is a fully digital housing transaction service. Finnish design, blockchain-based new service. We are doing a close cooperation with Finnish and Scandinavian banks. We acquired 80% of that in December. We have a very nice plan to use that platform for different kind of new initiatives as well. And then some smaller acquisitions like Ilona.Works, which is a business-to-business service marketplace, and Asuntopuntari as well. Those are all inside and run by Alma Talent group. As the transformation progresses and the business evolves, we, of course, want to renew our reporting accordingly. That means that while we have had the revenue split until the end of last year, as shown here on the left side of this slide, we have divided revenues in 3 parts like ad revenues, content revenues and service revenues. This is quite a traditional way of a publishing company to report its revenues. Now when we are moving more and more to a tech company or a combination of tech, service, media company, we want to do it a bit differently. And we start to split the revenues from the first quarter like we have done here on the right side of this slide. We are reporting from now on our revenues still in 3 parts, but they are marketplaces, media and services. The service part is going to grow. The marketplaces part is going to grow. The media part remains to be seen. Hopefully, it grows with the advertising growing and with the digital content sales growing, but it's been quite stable during last years. In our sense and in our portfolio, the marketplaces, the service sectors have been those that have been growing. But it depends very much on the underlying markets and acquisitions, of course. So this is also new from our part. All right. And then finally, the outlook for '21. As we all know, the uncertainty is still there. The virus is still there, which means that they are -- at least for the first half of the year, the uncertainty will continue. That means that the visibility stays poor, at least the first half of the year, and that is the reason for us also to be a bit cautious. We expect our adjusted operating profit to continue at last year's level. As Juha told you, we have there in the beginning some load burden from last year from the LMC and other costs that we have to take care of. And that is one reason, of course, for the outlook of this year. The delay between invoicing and revenue recognition and then, of course, the overhead costs, that is still there -- or some of them is still there after the divestment of our regional media to Sanoma. So we have to digest them step-by-step, but there is still burden for -- from that. So that's it. But as Juha told you, the year has started okay despite the lockdowns in the market. So we have a positive -- still a positive view on this year and coming months. Thank you very much. If you have any kind of questions, I have still time to -- about 15 minutes to answer those. And as I told you, we have all the segment leaders here as well if you want to pose any questions. Do we have online? Any questions, Elina?

I think we take the operator questions first.

Okay.

So operator, can you hear us? We would be ready for questions.

[Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from the line of Sami Sarkamies from Nordea.

I have a couple of questions starting from markets. I think you had indicated earlier that recruitment revenues have been improving every month throughout last year. But if we look at the growth rate in Q4, there was an unchanged 16% decrease in the fourth quarter, the same amount as in the third quarter. So was it so that there wasn't much improvement during Q4 after all? Or is this explained by different comparables for those 2 quarters? And then secondly, did you still explain what you meant with the EUR 1.5 million revenue headwind related to invoicing? For which period is this related to?

Okay. Thank you, Sami, very much. Very good questions. We want to clarify those. I'll let the last part of your question, the second question's to Juha. He tried to explain. I could do that as well, but he already started. So I'll start from the first one. Juha can continue. So there is this problem with sales invoicing and revenue recognition. So as we told you, the sales and invoicing of our recruitment services are picking up and have picked up during the end of the year. But because of the revenue recognition problem, that doesn't show in our revenue figures, if you understand correctly. So there is this, how to say, parallel problem. You can go deeper into that. We have the 1 slide in Juha's presentation explaining the EUR 1.4 million -- or EUR 1.5 million difference to start with this year. But the view is that the sales and the invoicing also in the recruitment is going to a right direction, but we have a revenue recognition problem from the later part of last year and the first part of this year still in place. Isn't this, Juha, yes, in fact, the right answer for that? So he has thumbs up, which means that the businesses are doing okay or good there, but the revenue recognition problem doesn't have that sign or show that in our figures. We are confident that -- so as I have -- have been reported is that like LMC, they had the all-time high January, and the December was all-time high in sales, which means that the economies are opening up, the businesses and the key customers of ours, they are active in recruiting and doing their business. So we will have these figures in place later during this year. Juha, do you want to continue with the LMC revenue recognition proper -- program?

I think this is pretty much what I tried to say also, that it's -- EUR 1.5 million is our estimate, how much our -- we are having negative effects next year.

It's here. But you can...

Yes.

So this is, Sami, the problem that we have discussed also before. The heavy slump, is it January, February, last year, this gray curve, makes the -- or is the explanation for the revenue decline. And that is so heavy that it has its effect also during the first half of this year. That is the EUR 1.5 million starting -- minus EUR 1.5 million starting point for the Career segment revenue development for this year. You had to have that in mind.

Okay. But just to be very clear, is that EUR 1.5 million, is that the monthly headwind, quarterly headwind or annual headwind?

It's the estimate for the first half year, and it -- the effect should stop to the end of half first year. So it's 6 month estimate.

Okay. That's very clear. Then -- yes.

Yes, please.

Okay. Well, moving on to temporary savings that was still, I think, EUR 3 million in the third quarter. Did you have any in the fourth quarter? And how much headwind are you seeing from those temporary savings on an annual level if we think about normalization of costs this year?

Well, actually, we didn't have any temporary savings or very little of those during the last quarter. As mentioned before, we had instead some new projects started and new investments going on like in recruitment services. And as we have seen from the figures of the Career segment, the profitability went down because of, of course, the decline in revenues but also for the cost that we have put in place for marketing and sales and product development. We had new launches like the Seduo training platform in Slovakia going on. It has had a very good start, actually. And we will see the good results by the end of this year. But we have those initiatives. So this has been the idea, to start the recovery to get out from the crisis healthy. And due to this, we didn't want to continue the temporary cost cuts like the layoffs or other personnel-related cost initiatives. And as a summary, we did around -- as you noticed, our costs declined last year around EUR 15 million, of which around EUR 12 million were those COVID-related cost initiatives. And we don't have those in our plans for this year. The other declining costs are more or less this kind of print-related, volume-based cost reductions.

Okay. That's very clear also. Then moving on to outlook and guidance. Can you confirm that even though you're guiding for flat revenues and EBIT, you're expecting to land in a positive territory? And then maybe on the top line guidance, why are you so negative as you will be faced with relatively easy comparables after the first quarter?

We haven't -- we don't have easy comparables for the first quarter. We have quite tough comparables for the first quarter. I mean this -- the January and even the February last year were extremely good, and then the difficulties aroused mid-March, actually.

Yes. Sorry, I meant after first quarter. So comparables will be easy after first quarter.

Quarter, yes, yes. Yes, getting easier, should be easier. But then on the other hand, we are quite cautious with the first half of the year. We have this revenue recognition problem. We have a little bit poor visibility of the market development because of the virus still going on, the vaccination program hasn't really started and so on. So that is how we -- our view. The first part of the year might be a bit difficult. Hopefully, the last part of the year will be much, much better. This is the basic idea how we made this forecast and our plans.

Okay. And can you say that -- are we expecting sort of positive flat sort of outlook or could it even be negative?

Hopefully. Hopefully so.

Okay. And then finally on the dividend cut and proposal. You went through the plans for the coming years. Is this driven by sort of perhaps M&A opportunities in the near term and you're sort of saving cash for those? Or is it so that the Board wanted to adjust the dividend payout level so that it reflects the underlying business at the moment assuming no M&A?

Obviously, the company wants to have room for strategic major investments that we hopefully have in place rather sooner than later. So we haven't had in the Board any kind of new ideas or ways of thinking about the dividend, so we have the -- still in place the dividend payout targets that we have had in place, which is 50% -- at least 50% of earnings per share. So the -- to be precise, we really want to have room for the growth of the company and for the acquisitions by reserving balance sheet for those initiatives. On the other hand, there's no new view like worsening view of underlying businesses. Not at all this kind of idea behind this on the contrary, I would say.