Anupam Rasayan India Ltd ($ANURAS)

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Anupam Rasayan India Limited Q4 FY '26 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions]. Please note that this conference is being recorded. From the management side, we have with us Mr. Anand Desai, Managing Director; Mr. Gopal Agrawal, Chief Executive Officer; Mr. Amit Khurana, Chief Financial Officer; and Mr. Vishal Thakkar, Deputy Chief Financial Officer. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Anand Desai. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you. Good morning, everyone and thank you for joining us for our Q4 and FY '26 earnings call. FY '26 has been a landmark year for Anupam Rasayan as we delivered our highest ever revenue. I would like to say so thank our customers, employees, shareholders and all stakeholders for their continued trust and support. We continue to strengthen our position as a globally integrated specialty chemicals company. Our performance in the year was a result of strong execution across key business verticals, improving contribution from higher chemistries and scale up of commercial molecules. We have delivered operating cash flow of INR 334 crores during FY '26 on the back of group asset relation, operational efficiency and better working capital management. Anupam has evolved into a well-diversified global specialty chemicals platform with presence across agrichemicals, Pharma, customer care, performance metrics, semiconductors, and eat applications. Over the past few years, we have consciously diversified our portfolio and spending or capabilities in High Performance Materials and pharmaceuticals. As a result, on a standalone basis, our revenue from High Performance Materials increased threefold over INR 95 crores in FY '22 to INR 35 crores in FY '26. While Pharma revenue has grown tenfold from this INR 21 crores in FY '22 to INR 339 crores in FY '26. Consequently, our dependence on remits reduced from 76% revenue contribution in FY '22, 54% in FY '26. This diverse revenue mix provides us with a more balanced product portfolio, better demand visibility and greater resilience across business cycles. A key pillar of our strategy has been strengthening indication accounts evolution. Our investment in Tenfac industries has significantly strengthened our [indiscernible] platform by securing uninterested access to critical raw materials with is hydropic acid and potassium chloride. Over the support of Anupam, is in the process of introducing new products as well as new customers in the financial year. This contributing to Matisia and [indiscernible] campaign. Used backward integration also improves our supply chain annuity, cost competitiveness and support development of differentiated fluorine-based [indiscernible] for global customers. In addition, we have successfully completed the acquisition of Jayhawk Fine Chemicals. And this acquisition provides us with a strategic manufacturing footprint in the U.S., strengthens our advanced customer capabilities and expands our access to in ocean led and highly regulated markets. Jayhawk will also help us deepen relationships with multinational customers while increasing our participation in high-growth sectors like defense and semiconductor. Thus concluding to our [indiscernible] America campaign. We are pleased to also announce that we have entered into a definitive agreement to acquire [indiscernible] on 3% to 48.2% equity stake along with an open offer of 26% addition shares of the exchange of serious Pharma Limited. This marks another important milestone in Anupam Rasayan's vision of building an integrated group of life science and specialty pharmaceutical platform. This acquisition will strategically strengthen our profits across the pharmacy value chain in key southern materials to finished visit formulations. The company brings well-established capabilities in niche business forms across [indiscernible] supported by activation from USFDA, GMP, BSOGMP, et cetera, and a strong international footprint. Looking ahead, we remain confident in our long-term growth opportunity. With that, I would like to hand over the call to Mr. Gopal Agrawal to explain you on the performance of the company over year.

Thank you, Ananad Bhai. I will basically touch upon key project synergies behind the proposed edition of this [indiscernible]. This U.S. pharma brings established abilities in differentiated pharmaceutical formulations, along with a strong progress across emerging markets. While Anupam Rasayan will continue to focus on its core [indiscernible] business, all the pharmaceutical products, the strong engagement and business development initiative in this Pharma segment will be gradually integrated into this platform. Our vision is to create a dedicated pharmaceutical platform to this BS, which will serve as a primary vehicle for our future, Pharma CDMO, and CMO opportunities. We are confident that this structure will allow us to offer a more robust, focus salable and seamless pharmaceutical platform going forward. On the Jayhawk integration front, we are already witnessing entering synergies across customer [indiscernible] opportunities and techniques [indiscernible]. The acquisition significantly increases our business in the U.S. market and enhances our ability to work more closely with global innovators across advanced specialty chemicals and pharmaceutical applications. We have reported a pro forma annual revenue of approximately USD 76 million reflecting the strong scale and capabilities of the platform. I would also like to highlight that in the current financial, we have consolidated only 1 month and 2 days of Jayhawk performance and therefore, the full synergy benefits and financial contribution will be more visible going forward in FY '27. Coming back Anupam Rasayan's performance for FY '26. Our focus continues to remain on commercialization of molecules our pipeline in Pharma, Performance Materials segment, improving the working capital cycle and strengthening the supply chain. During the year, we added multiple international customers, expanded our product portfolio with 3 new product additions, further strengthening our business across 5 value specialty chemical segments. Going forward, we will continue to focus on unlocking synergies across Tanfac, Jayhawk and Pharma, creating a platform for pharma as well as speciality chemical or global innovators across multiple drops. With that, I'd like to hand over the call to Amit to discuss the financial performance of the company. Amit Bhai.

Thank you, Gopal, and good evening, everyone. I will first briefly touch upon the transaction details of this GVS Pharma. Anupam Rasayan has entered into a definitive agreement to acquire an aggregate equity stake of approximately 43.3% to 48.5% in this [indiscernible] Pharma, along with an open offer in accordance with regulatory requirements. The transaction will be funded through a combination of approximately INR 300 crores via nonconvertible debentures and noncontrolling nonvoting equity instruments for the balance consideration. Coming to Anupam's operational performance, our working capital and inventory levels improved over the year due to which we have achieved operating cash flow of INR 334 crores. This improvement is in line with our guidance of working capital improvement, and we further expect it to improve in FY '27. During the year, we did CapEx of INR 315 crores towards the last leg of the CapEx program. And with that, all our plants are commercialized. We are not envisaging any major CapEx in near future as current capacity is enough to take care of the near-term growth. Looking ahead, we remain positive on our growth trajectory, supported by strong execution of existing LOIs and contracts, commercialization of new molecules and the synergies expected from our recent acquisitions and strategic initiatives. With that, I would like to hand over the call to Vishal Bhai to discuss the financial performance of the company in detail.

Thank you, Amit, and good evening, everyone. I would like to share some key financial performance highlights for the quarter and full year. The consolidated financial highlights include Tanfac and 1 month and 2 days of Jayhawk for Q4 FY '26. Total income was at INR 639 crores as compared to INR 506 crores in Q4 FY '25, up 26% Y-o-Y. EBITDA, including other income, was at INR 141 crores as compared to INR 150 crores in Q4 FY '25 translating to an EBITDA margin of 22% for this quarter. Profit after tax was INR 56 crores as compared to INR 63 crores in Q4 FY '25, translating to a 9% profit margin in this quarter. Consolidated financial highlights include Tanfac and 1 month and 2 days of Jayhawk for FY '26 as well. Revenue from operations was at INR 2,384 crores as compared to INR 1,448 crores in FY '25, up 65% Y-o-Y. EBITDA including other income was at INR 543 crores as compared to INR 412 crores in FY '25. This translates to an EBITDA margin of 23% for FY '26. Profit after tax was at INR 222 crores as compared to INR 163 crores in FY '25, translating to a PAT margin of 9% in FY '26. Our business vertical while revenue on stand-alone basis for FY '26 is as follows: Agro Chemicals segment contributed 55% of our revenue. Pharma segment contributed 20% of our revenue. Performance verticals contributed 18% of our revenue and balance was 7% contributed by Personal Care. Thank you. And now we open the floor for the questions.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from the line of Harsh Shah with Emkay Global.

Two ale questions from my side. What was the rationale behind the [indiscernible] to sell? And would the current management of less CVS continue.

Yes, Harsh. So first, yes, the current management shall continue. And as we have done in Tanfac, we will continue to work with the same team that is there. And support and expand the team as required going forward. So that is the approach that we have taken with Tanfac, Jayhawk and so will we take for Bliss as well. The strategic rationale as we had suggested in our presentation as well. The way we are looking at it is that Anupam has been focusing on pharmaceutical industry as an end market. And as Anand Bhai and Gopal also mentioned in the present in the opening remarks, our contribution from pharma has gone from practically 0% of our revenue or 2% of our revenue to 20% of our revenue. And this is more in the KSM segment largely. And we believe that this acquisition of Jayhawk shall help us in terms of offering a larger pharma platform to our customers as well [indiscernible] customers. Also, if you look at this company, it's today having an operating capacity, capacity utilization of only 40% and we believe that, that can be very, very quickly enhanced to 60% to 70% in a near to medium term, and that's something which we would be looking at leveraging. Also, this company is largely -- they have a limited business coming from U.S., Europe, where Anupam has a strong presence and capability in which we can leverage to help them grow there. Also, India is a market where we believe that the growth can be further enhanced for [indiscernible] as well. So I think overall, it is slowly strengthening the pharma portfolio and the platform that we are creating, which should be value adding to our [indiscernible] is and Anupam along with if you look at the whole value chain starting from Tanfac to Anupam, Jayhawk and Bliss all will be able to contribute to this platform as we go further.

The next question comes from the line of Tanya Chowdhary with Investec.

What could be expected pro forma revenue contribution be post consolidation of all entities? And whether there are any long-term plans around the merger or delisting of Bliss GVS Pharma?

Okay. So the first one, I'll let me -- let me answer the second question first and then I got the first question. Answer is no. Like what we have worked with the Tanfac as well that we would like to keep them independent and run as an independent entity. Though leveraging each other strength is what we have done. And here, also the whole idea is to keep them as their own -- as a separate entity and run business separately. However, leveraging each other's capabilities and strengths that we create together. Coming to the top line on a pro forma basis, if I were to look at the pro forma basis business across the 4 companies, Anupam should be today is INR 1,676 crores, Tanfac INR 711 crores, Jayhawk is roughly INR 722 depending upon the extremes that you take. And Bliss is INR 927 crores. So total, if I look at as of today, deliver business on a pro forma basis, we should be looking at INR 2,000 crores of revenue and an EBITDA of around about INR 834 crores on a consol basis, I would say.

Understood. Understood. Got it, sir. So could you also elaborate on the key synergies expected from the Bliss acquisition, the likely time line benefits to reflect in financial? And what could the funding structure of the transaction be? And is it expected to be EPS accretive going forward?

See, the synergies and the cost leverage of the strength will start playing out over the near to medium term. So we believe that in terms of expansion of the business, be it in terms of CDMO projects that they are looking at expansion in U.S., Europe and India should start giving results in 6 to 18 months' time -- 6 to 12 months' time more nearly, but 18 further, we'll be able to see a larger one. Second, if I were to look at in terms of the structure, the whole idea will be that we will be raising our debt to continue of around about INR 300 crores to fund this project and balance, which will be in our wholly-owned subsidiary, it would be the entity which will acquire shareholding. And further also, balance 1 will come in as a as equity, which will be nonconsolidating, nondilutive, nonparticipating equity for us, which would allow us to have full control and full consolidation as we see. Also, yes, it will be EPS secretive from day 1. Further, if I were to say about the synergies, if you see how we have delivered Tanfac over the period that the synergies start kicking in, but if you see the real value created for let's say Tanfac and attached as well as if you look at for Anupam and Anupam's growth, we believe that the similar kind of our business and the value creation, we should be able to deliver for Bliss as well as an Anupam shareholder and we believe that with the kind of a sale and levels that we have, Anupam, we took 4 years to reach where we are today in terms of Tanfac. We believe and we endeavor that we can do it faster than what we did for Tanfac. Let's see as we go.

Understood. Understood, sir. So could you help us understand the underlying growth trajectory of the base business, excluding Jayhawk? And how should we think about the evolving business mix going forward, particularly with increasing contribution from the Pharma and polymer segments?

Okay. the business of [indiscernible] business has seen a very significant growth that you see this year. We have been able to deliver over 50% to 70% growth rate in our annual revenues. And we believe that this growth trajectory shall continue, not in this space because it's also recouping of the last year's -- last 2 years of business that we had a loss but a growth of 20% or 30% growth rate over the next 3 to 5 years on a CAGR basis is something that we should be striving for and we should be looking at. And we feel reasonably confident on that performance. Yes, the performance -- the levers, as we have said, we have order book and pharma and polymers should be able to deliver a higher growth compared to Agro, but Agro we continue to recoup and grow further. Yes. And then if you look at the [indiscernible] and the Elementium contract and other contracts that we are looking at, that should drive a significant growth. So we believe that the growth trajectory here in standalone business continues to grow across all the 3 verticals. And then, in fact, then Jayhawk, then this. All 3 together should be able to give a further flip to the company's performance. I hope I've answered your questions.

Yes, sir.. Last question. how is the debt repayment schedule likely to shape up now post the recent acquisitions? And what would the broad interest cost look like over the medium term?

Okay. Look at this way that today, my balance sheet carries around about INR 1,500 crores of debt on a consol basis on a gross level basis. On a net basis, that number will be around INR 1,100 crore and something. So that's the number we are talking. Largely, it is more working capital loan largely and over 2/3 will be working capital loan out of the INR 1,500 crores and the balances turndown. If I add on top of it, let's say, INR 300 crores of this loan, we are talking about on a net basis, around about INR 1,400 crores to INR 1,500 crores of debt. And to -- and if I just -- as I was mentioning, if I add all the EBITDA, we are talking about INR 800 crore, even on an allocation basis, I should be over INR 650 crores of EBITDA. And I think that should be a very comfortable position to be in to really look at this kind of debt levels. And of that, most of the debt is classically the working capital debt.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from the line of Ankur Periwal with Axis Capital.

A few questions on the stand-alone business first. So we have a gross block of around INR 2,500, INR 2,600 crores on the stand-alone side against the current revenue of rounding off numbers, let's say, INR 17 billion there. What is the potential peak revenue that we can do here with the current gross book?

We should be looking at -- Ankur should be looking at about INR 3,500 crores kind of a number from this revenue -- from this block, at least and then we will look at further optimizing the value optimizing those assets.

Sure. And Vishal, which is where your comment that there is no incremental CapEx required on the stand-alone side. What would be your maintenance CapEx here, the number that we can look at over the next, let's say, 2, 3 years?

I would say over INR 50-odd crores of maintenance CapEx, and then there are some operational efficiency program that we do, and that will be in similar ones less number than I -- so I think INR 50 crores to INR 75 crores is what you can look at CapEx, where will be maintenance and then plus a bit of an efficiency program that we continue to do. But that's the kind of number we are looking at here.

Sure. And just a follow-up on the revenue bit. So this almost doubling of revenues that we are looking at over the next, whatever, 3 to 5 years, you earlier mentioned pharma and sort of polymers to be one of the key areas where the growth will be led by, how much of this delta do we have a visibility on right now? And how much of it is a function of the synergies coming from either Jayhawk or Bliss?

So if you look at my order book, order book itself is around INR 14,000 crores. If I just even take a 7-year average, 6-year average would be in we are talking about INR 2,400 crores of additional of which part of it is come to later to INR 1,700 crores to INR 1,800 crores of additional increases in revenues income on an annual basis from this pipeline, which would have a part of Agro and part of Polymer business. Over and above that, Polymer business, there are other new projects which are coming in, which should also feet. And Pharma will -- as we discussed in the opening remarks by Ananad Bhai. That business has been continuously growing, and we believe that, that organic growth coming from Indian market should be sufficient on a stand-alone basis. Any synergies coming from, let's say, Jayhawk and Bliss is on top of it that I would suggest as of now. But you rightly said that, that would be there and that itself will also help us and go the entities also grow faster. That definitely is there.

Sure, Vishal Bhai. And from a margin profile perspective, right now, more than 50% of the revenues are coming from Agro and if I look at FY '26 EBITDA margin, EBITDA is the right time to look at it because there is a very significant variation in the gross margins there. So some cost elements up and down maybe. Sorry, just to complete that with. So if I look at the EBITDA margin profile for the company and given that large part of the growth will be coming from pharma. First clarification, whether pharma polymer will be margin accretive versus our -- versus Agro or versus the current business? And secondly, how do you see the working capital playing out given that pharma, to my mind, will be lower on working capital versus Agro? And how should one look at this within in the next say, 3 years?

Perfect. Ankur, first, you just spot on, we should be looking at from an EBITDA perspective to -- if you look at agro pharma or volume other business, the way we have constructed and where we have developed the business model. The whole focus is to have a particular targeted margins that we would want to have. And the numbers that we have been guiding historically, I think on a blended basis, we should be able to look at those kind of numbers in the range that even this year's numbers represent. I believe that's the kind of a number I would really go with for now. And I think that's the number that going forward on an outlook basis also I'm more comfortable with, so that's built on this. Now on the working capital side, if you see the trajectory has been very, very encouraging. We have been able to improve our working capital significantly and we believe that we shall continue it. If I look at on a pro forma basis, Jayhawk's assets and all the balance sheet has been consolidated line by 100%, but the revenue and the margins have been only for the 1 month and 2 days. So if I just do it on a pro forma basis, I think the number should be on a consolidated basis at the working capital number should be in the end of 220-odd days kind of a number on a pro forma basis. But even on absolute basis, excluding Jayhawk also, we have been -- for the numbers 240 to 250 days of working capital. So I see that this trajectory is there and I believe that the trajectory should continue as we go I hope that's fair.

Sure, Just one clarification, my working capital comment was more stand-alone, so -- which is the -- and with the business mix changing, as in pharma and polymer going up -- your -- if I got you right, you said broadly, we will be continuing with our FY '26 margin, the broad range, 20%, 4% of EBITDA margin there. So shouldn't a higher share from far more polymer be on accretive on margin as well as on a faster reduction in working capital?

I agree. So when I'm saying on a stand-alone or the console, yes, you are right that the working capital would [indiscernible] significantly, and we will have a far better working capital management. And the reflection today itself, if you look at it, today, we have curated a console of INR 330 crores and stand-alone of INR 274 crores of operating cash flow compared to a consol PAT of INR 222 crores and a relevant number in terms of my stand-alone numbers as well. So that conversion from working capital into cash is happening. You are right, Pharma and Polymer will continue to give us that additional [indiscernible] working capital. Margins see, yes, there will be upward. I expect and agree with you. The only thing is right now, I do not want to guide because these are all ramping up products. And once they fully ramp up, they will have a far different margin profile. But yes, there will be upward bias to that. I agree with you.

Great, sir. Just last bit on the tax rate, at least on the stand-alone side, we have seen a sharp reduction in the last couple of years. So if you can guide what should we take that going ahead. And just second, a clarification in Bliss as well as in Jayhawk, are there any common customers across the business segments, pharma, performance, et cetera, which are there across Bliss or Jayhawk and our standalone operation.

Okay. So first, on Jayhawk, yes, there are common customers, which are there and there are comments significant customers as well and common, and there are complementary customers also. There are new customers that Jayhawk will offer to us when we can focus our product and our services and offerings. And same way for us also, we will be able to offer to -- Jayhawk new customers that we have, which they can leverage on. So yes, there will be. Also, if you look at it in terms of Bliss as well. There are a few customers where -- especially on the CDMO side that they are working with. And also we have a few customers where we are working with. So yes, there will be overlap and cross-pollination, both will happen there, and there is a fair bit of synergy that we will see in terms of that. And also, one more thing that I want to guide or what I want to emphasize on. When you go to any customer, how is stand-alone going or Jayhawk standalone is going, or Bliss standalone is going or even Tanfac for that matter stand-alone going versus we going as a platform will really, really add a lot of value and probability to success, especially if you look at the recent Tanfac addition of customers, there would be a significant value that we would have offered to Tanfac and its is customers really expect them. So that continues that way. Yes, we are envisaging a lower tax rate going forward. I think going forward, we should be looking at around about 25% as a tax going forward.

This is on the stand-alone side, right?

This is on stand-alone side, yes.

Congratulations once again and all the best. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Ankur. It's always pleasure to interact with you.

The next question comes from the line of Meet Gada, Individual Investor.

Congratulations team on the Bliss acquisition. Over the last 1 year, we have seen the company moving from lost now acquisition free -- just wanted to get an understanding from you that how should 1 see Anupam over the next 3 to 5 years considering this multiple kind of acquisitions and the LOI revenue is flowing.

Meet, if I take a step back and answer, what is -- if I want to connect all the dots. So today, if you look at it, any 3DS player and especially a manufacturer, if they want to participate in a multinational or a transnational businesses with large customers. I think the whole idea is supply chain or a platform to offer. The larger the value chain that I can cover an offer to my customer better and better probability and better traction that I can see with my customer, better is the kind of engagement that I can have. So if you look at it, the first acquisition of Tanfac was for the backward integration and offering a supply secured offering to our customers. If you look at Jayhawk. Jayhawk added further to that platform, especially in terms of -- in the performance material, EV, semiconductor and the high-end defense and other products, especially in a very, very highly valuable market like America where making America makes a lot of traction for the customer -- end customers. And so that's the platform that we are talking. And again, if you look at from a Bliss acquisition, the same part is that can we offer a full platform base where we expand from [indiscernible] and offer up to a finished tags. And just synergies will take its own time to deliver, but there is always a cross leverage that we are able to offer. Even today, if you look at Tanfac, they have done well, we have been able to help them in terms of product portfolio and otherwise. And same is that supply security has helped us in terms of getting many more contracts and LOIs from our customer. So I think it is synergistic for us. And the whole idea is offering a full solution or a larger solution than a narrow solutions.

Got it. Sir, that was very well explained. One more question or your -- so I wanted to just check why did the Bliss promoters sell the company and why did they choose Anupam as a buyer?

So first, let me talk about -- there was a succession planning there, which was the further reason that they had to say. But the selling promoter is a very senior citizen, and he has survived he has 2 daughters. And hence, the whole idea was for them to really liquidate his short holding in the company and offer cash and subscription to stage to their family and let them decide what to do with [indiscernible]. Also, why Anupam, I say we have been in touch with the nematode the last 2 years, and they believe in our vision, the way we work, we operate our ethics and ethos. Also, if you -- they saw what we did with Tanfac, we saw what we -- what are our plans that we are doing with Jayhawk as well. And the trajectory that we have been able to offer to Tanfac retain that team, retain the manpower and work with the existing management and help them wherever they need to grow, have that independence of a very classic blend of independence versus support approach. And that's one of the strong reasons that the selling shareholder chose Anupam. They did have some other competing offers also as we go right ahead. But they have honored their commitment to us which is credit to their efforts as well as their belief in us.

The next question comes from the line of [indiscernible]

[indiscernible] as they had a very basic question regarding the structuring of the transaction -- so more just in such a way that even the previous promoters like us to actually reactivate from emotive group towards the ag Group in 2023. also had to sell that stake in consortium because if we just look at your past passing on assets like Tanfac. So why would [indiscernible] really well in the past 5, 10 years, set up the asset and more aggressive, the motor is coming up. So it what was the net of the target on? I was trying to understand whether I'm missing something.

Sorry, I couldn't understand. If you can for.

Yes, sir, what we observed in the transition was that [indiscernible] family held some 35% stake, but there was also another family has who used to be the promoters of the company, but then they did reclassified to the public category into 2020-21. And they also ended up selling [indiscernible] family [indiscernible] set that up onto is certain stakes so that it takes a lot of sense on as well turned around this asset for the [indiscernible] to also liquidate this space in this particular block. But how did that over structure[indiscernible] if you can provide some more detailing on that one.

So any strategic to [Technical Difficulty]-- they and Mr. Kamat go long back, so they work together. And when Mr. Kamath decided to sell, Mr. Rafal also offered to sell along and that we've done these transactions. However, they believe in us and that the reason if you see there is a range between 43.3% to 48.2% in which is basically the love to keep that over 4.9% shareholding proximately 5% shareholding because they believe in this growth, it is our choice if we want to have it more, otherwise, they would love to keep it.

Super helpful. And sir, again, you mentioned that the spill management will continue to handle the business -- so did you mean the promoters or provisional management team that will continue to lead the business?

Professional management shall continue, and we will continue and the promoter anyway has interested they will continue to be handhold us and they are always a well-wisher and a trend that we will continue to support an were as much as they require.

Got it because promoter [indiscernible] was also involved in the business. I think, resigned in November and conversion between the in that enact to understand that continued perfection and who will drive the capital allocation in treasury going forward. will it be berries promoters also have a say in that because they will be involved in the business. So if you can just provide some clarity on that.

First, the business on a stand-alone basis will run from their management and we guided supported by Anupam. The shareholder and the promoter relinquishing their control and their holding. They continue to support as much as we require as and when we require, and they are friends for live for us also in relation for life also. And there will continue to be a nonparticipating noncontrolling shareholding, whatever that limited shares that we would prefer that with. So that's what the.

Got it. And sir, what are the time lines for the real CapEx like because we are already had some 30% utilization. So I just wanted to understand the rationale behind that particular [indiscernible] whether it came after we became the motor was it only even before we unloaded the bus and what type of revenues can we expect from all this particular CapEx, like from our overall [indiscernible] in Bliss.

First, the time line, if you look at it is basically open up on the SEBI approval and the open offer results. So between 2 to 3 months of time frame is what we estimate today, but that's an estimation. And as we go, we get to get more clarity based on this feedback. Further, today, the capacity utilization, as we said, was in the range of 40% and the top line is around INR 1,000 crores. So we are looking at 60% to 70% in an immediate near future or in the near to medium term future. And proportionately, we expect the revenue to be there from that kind of an asset utilization.

I missed something, but I was asking about the time lines for the [indiscernible] CapEx, where we are doing some 20-odd kind of cap that was mentioned in the investor PPT. So if you can provide some time in on that front? And does the 30% also includes the incoming CapEx of [indiscernible] that doesn't include that part because -- that was a doubt that I had because our existing facilities are already underutilized, and we are doing an incremental CapEx of INR 250 crores. So was it even before we came?

That CapEx is basically for the CDMO business, which has been offered by a very large multinational partner player, existing customers out there. And it's a separate CapEx for a separate objective and separate business vertical. So that will be independently executed compared to the current CapEx that are done in the [indiscernible] plant and other plants. .

So this is a fair assumption that, that particular aspect will have a larger decision period? Or how is the scale for that kind of asset going forward?

That has a very strong high CapEx. There the asset turnover be in 4 to 5x of the asset investment. But let's not -- so today, we are talking about Anupam right now, let us get the control. We have just signed a definitive agreement, give us a little bit more time and then we can come back with you when we consider this transaction. I think that would be a fair for my side because I do not want to speak on behalf of this. They are listed entity. We have not yet consumer to this transaction that we made segment on their behalf. And whatever I've said is only from the public knowledge that we have right now. So please have that -- and I hope that the safe harbor applies here. This is only our view about this business based on the public information that we have. So please be mindful of that. If I've made any statements, please have that caveat on this please. I hope we appreciate the sensitivity. We are a listed entity. They are also listed entity. So please take it in that context and the [indiscernible].

The next question comes from the line of Varun Pinto with Asian Capital.

I apologize on my questions have gone to be around Pharma. But sir, just one clarification in the beginning. So currently, you're saying that the peak revenue with the current gross [indiscernible] in Bliss, we can do about INR 3,000 crores. Is that understanding correct?

Technically, yes. If I do that tick answer is yes.

Understood, sir. Sir, I was actually looking for some clarity around like how the synergies are going to play out between Anupam and Bliss because my understanding currently is that Blaze does not actually manufacture its own API, right? They purchase their API and neither does Pharma, it does not manufacture API. Sir, how is it going to work post the acquisition? Will have to like purchase API from outside only? Or is that something that Anupam can help.

So see, we are looking at 1 facet of the synergy that is -- which is basically we are talking about vertical integration here which is on the MBS side. However, I'll come to that in a minute. But look at it that we are -- as we were talking about in the earlier question itself that there is a large project that we are working with a very large multinational company for CDMO based project. Now that's one thing which Anupam coming in improves the probability and the quality and the value creation there that can be there. There is a potential that we can add to that. right? That's one of a couple of projects. There will be more projects that we can bring there. We can bring it into that platform. And even today, Anupam is talking to the -- Anupam's existing customers also are talking to us about the CMO projects and CMO projects, which we can leverage both capacity and capabilities to really offer that solution to our customer. So that's one that I answer. Second, as we were saying that this asset is right now limitedly used right now and because it has just recently completed CapEx. This, we will be able to leverage our expertise in the regulated market like U.S. and Europe, where they have permissions and approvals to expand very quickly. And that's something which we can add.

Understood.

And we have our plan laid out on how we think about running it. Once we acquire, we'll ship with the management, work with them and will that create a joint plan and an integration plan for this [indiscernible].

Understood, sir, understood.

This is exactly what we did with Tanfac. You see the kind of effort that we have made and the results we have created for Anupam. It has -- its revenue has significantly -- the profitability has gone significantly. We believe there is room to deliver similar kind of results for there as well.

Absolutely, sir. Sir, just one clarification. The CDMO that is will be doing, that will be largely around finished formulations, right?

Let us wait for that. I don't think I should be answering on behalf of Bliss management today because that's the prerogative right now. Let us consolidate this business and then consume this business at this first, and we will definitely answer that going forward. But apologies, it would be inappropriate for me to make that statement for it.

Okay, sir, no problem. Sir, lastly, one question that I have is like Anupam getting into the pharma business and enter in the regulated markets, would that be looked at as a conflict from our customers' point of view?

I think this market is a very large market. There are enough examples where you will be seeing that somebody is doing all the 3 steps [indiscernible] APIs, CDMO as well as finished doses. It's only we need to be mindful. We need to miss the more selective. Strategic about our choices and about our therapies where there are product profile that we will work with. And I think there is enough room. We are here talking about a INR 1,000 crore company today. Even if you let to go 5x also, we're talking about $0.5 billion of revenue. I think in the space of pharma industry, I think it is not anything very significant that really fixed and can come up. That's my personal view. I'll leave it, yes.

The next question comes from the line of Saket Sarit with Searipple.

Congratulations on the deal. Sir, my first question would be, if I say, consider the platform, excluding Bliss, what would be our Africa exposure? And what would be Bliss' Africa exposure? Because this is where I think geographical geographically, do you think that Anupam and the rest of the platform, excluding Bliss is Africa, say, a very attractive proposition. Because if I'm not mistaken, Bliss had a fair exposure to Africa. So that would be my first question, sir.

So first, am right now has no exposure to that geography. I believe the company's Bliss exposure. Yes, they are, we understand the larger. But that's one part of the synergy of the business that we were talking about. And that's what I was saying earlier. There are not many more things. It's -- that business runs -- that business is capable of -- that management is capable of running that business in a manner. We are focusing on creating a platform. They have approvals in U.S., Europe and India, we will leverage that. They have a lot of molecules also approved that, which is what we will leverage. So I think there is a lot more opportunities beyond only geographical aspect of business strength that it has. In fact, that's a complementary trend between the 2 companies, which we will be able to leverage.

Okay, sir. Now coming back to the second question, sir, you have talked about that it will continue to run independently. Now unless until we say this platform, say, mergers and demerger, so that you consolidate all the CDMO under one umbrella. There might be some duplication of effort or these companies continue to run independently. Is that -- so any thoughts on that, sir? Because you have clearly articulated that these would remain independent companies like Tanfac and other, so Bliss would also remain so.

Let me use a little bit of a humor, but -- and patently on that, but look at what has happened to Tanfac and Anupam. Both of us [indiscernible], has been able to leverage each other's strength and we both are doing well. So integration does not mean that I need to bring it into 1 corporate entity to maybe deliver the value or to deliver the synergy values. There are -- in the chemical manufacturing, there are multiple steps and processes. We can easily segregate the steps between [indiscernible] and based on the capacity capabilities and the strength of each of the organization, we will be able to leverage this one. I don't see that we need to bring it into a same corporate entity because the plants will be the plant will be separate. Each plant is a separate plant. Now I house it in Anupam or I house it in Bliss or I house it in [indiscernible] or I house it in Jayhawk, it doesn't matter because physically it will pass through those plants whichever are required to deliver this offering.

Okay, sir. fair point, sir. And next point would be, sir, now can we expect, say, the Bliss management to now regularly interact with the investors because that's what they have not been doing after COVID? And also is something that can you comment on their behalf that maybe Q1 onwards [indiscernible]

Let us consume this transaction before I make any of these promises or your suggestions. Hold on, I would just sign the definitive agreement on the weekend. Give us a little time. We will answer these questions, but I hope you appreciate that. It is a little too early for me to really promise on behalf of a company, which today is not under my control.

So I appreciate that one. And thanks once again for this deal, and I appreciate you answering with such clarity and openness. I appreciate and best of luck for the day.

Thank you. Thank you. I promise you'll answer these questions. Just give me a little time.

Don't know sure, sir. I think we have waited for so long to see a couple of months won't make much of production -- is that for sure. It's a long-term deal and look at.

And look at Tanfac. Tanfac at an appropriate time, has now started being more active with its shareholders and investors, and we promise you for the others as well.

Sure, sir. So I got to say that has been one of the feedbacks we have tried to reach out again fund as point and individuals, but that has been one of the focuses. So I thought let me bring this to your attention. And hopefully, this get addressed. But I understand all your points for that once the deal is consummated, then maybe we are better placed to take this forward. Yes.

Thank you very much.

The next question comes from the line of Himesh Shah, our individual investor. There is no response from the current participant. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.

Thank you all for your active participation and interest in us. On behalf of the management of Anupam Rasayan India Limited. I thank you all for joining us on our post-earnings call today. We hope we have been able to answer and address majority of your queries. Should you have any more queries, you may reach out to our Investor Relations partner, strategic growth adviser for any further queries that you may have, and they will connect with you offline. We now close the call. Thank you.

Thank you. On behalf of Anupam Rasayan India Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you all for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.