Aqualis ASA (ABL) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome. It's good to see everybody again. Today, I'm delighted to announce our Q4 results 2024. My name is Reuben Segal, I'm the Group CEO. And I'm also joined this morning by David Jackson (sic) [ Stuart Jackson ], the Group CFO. So as I said, I'm going to give you a quick overview, this typical -- our usual schedule format. I'm going to give you a quick overview of how Q4 played out and also the rest of 2024. I'm going to hand across to Stuart who's going to give you more details on our financials and how the quarter played in terms of cash and EBIT and so on and so forth. And then I will wrap up with a summary and how we see things going forward in our various markets. As usual, we draw your attention to the disclaimer. Please feel free to read this in your own time. So let's jump into the results. Another mixed bag, if we're honest. We had some low spots, we have some high spots Overall, we ended the quarter with $86 million of revenues. That was predominantly driven over the previous year from the acquisition of Ross Offshore, which also came into the organization, which, of course, added more revenue. Saying that, if you remove the revenues from Ross Offshore, there's a slight increase, organic growth, across the organization. That was in different parts, while at the same time, we had a decrease in revenues across OWC, which you'll see more details on it in a moment. So it was a mixed bag in terms of revenue growth. We had some down in the offshore wind. We had some up in the oil and gas. Even that was quite different across the globe in terms of the Americas versus Asia and so on and so forth. So it was another mixed quarter. But overall, revenue-wise, it was an okay end to the year. But Q4 kind of mirrored the rest of 2024 in terms of a very volatile market that we're in. Some parts of the oil and gas side saw some good high points, also some low points. Also, we saw offshore wind being very much pushed to the right-hand side. So Q4 ended the same way really as the rest of 2024, although there are some bright spots, which I'll come on to a little bit later. In terms of the EBIT, a marginal increase over our Q2 figures. We closed the quarter at $3.1 million with a margin of about 3.6%. Again, quite a mixed bag. We had offshore wind, which was down. We also had a reduction in our utilization in the ABL segment of the organization, which, of course, brought some of the margins down. But saying that, we had a very good results in both AGR and Longitude, which brought some of the margin back up. So the margin was kind of a bit like the rest of the business, quite a mixed bag. But overall, these were the results in terms of the EBIT and in terms of the revenues. In terms of the net cash position, we closed at $4.8 million, this is down over the quarter but that was also due to the payment of dividend during the quarter of just over $5 million. So there was an increase in the cash, but obviously, a decrease once you take out the dividend. Finally, we also had a very active quarter in terms of M&A. And in fact, 2024 overall was quite active with M&A as we continued into 2025. We announced the acquisition of Hidromod, which I'll talk about in a moment, and also the acquisition of Techconsult, which we will actually close in Q2 this year. So it was quite active at the end, and we'll talk about that in a moment. But people are going to ask how do we see 2025 because this is 2024. It's gone by. It was a tricky year. If I'm honest with you, there are things we should have done. Maybe there were some actions we should have taken earlier. I think we've said that in Q2. We have seen some of the lights coming through. Some of the actions that we took in -- particularly in Q3, Q2 and Q3, have started to flow through. And hence, how do we see 2025? And I think the answer is in our dividend. We agreed with the Board yesterday that we would like to increase this dividend from NOK 0.4 to NOK 0.45 per share. So that kind of gives you an indication of how we see things going forward, how we see our markets going forward, how we see our operations in view of the changes we made during 2024. So just talking very briefly before I hand across to Stuart. We did announce the acquisition of Proper Marine in Brazil in Rio de Janeiro. This was a company founded in 2010. It's a pure engineering play. It's in marine operations, it's in engineering design, it's in consultancy. And if some of you will remember the story of Longitude, it's a part of our business that's one of the smallest parts but highly profitable, and we want to find ways to grow Longitude, continue to push our engineering services and Proper Marine was a perfect acquisition for us down in Rio de Janeiro. One of the hotspots in oil and gas is still in Brazil, and I think they're very, very well placed. We'll talk more about Proper Marine as we move forward. But this acquisition was announced in Q4 and we closed it in the beginning of January. And last but not least, is Techconsult. So this is a little bit early. We've only announced it in Q1. So this has got nothing to do with our Q4 results. But it continues that growth with AGR. We had an opportunity to acquire Techconsult. It brings another 200 professionals into the organization. It continues to take our push into -- here in Norway and more into the resourcing. So Techconsult was announced in February, and the plan is to close Techconsult in early April. So you'll get to hear more about that when we do the Q1 results. So that's the mixed bag. I will come back and talk a little bit more a little bit later. But for now, I'll hand across to Stuart who will give you more detail on the financials.

Thank you, Reuben, and good morning, everybody. Before I go into the financials, let me just pick up on the acquisitions that we did more recently. So in terms of Proper Marine, an acquisition we closed in January of this year. So $4 million in terms of purchase price. In terms of consideration for that, we paid half of that in cash and then half of that is coming through shares, and those shares will be paid out over the next 5 years. This is part of the Longitude business. As Reuben has mentioned, we had about $100,000 of transaction costs associated with this. And obviously, our first point of consolidation for Proper Marine will be the Q1 results we come back to in a couple of months' time. And then in terms of Techconsult, so an acquisition announced in February. We'll actually close this probably in April. So consolidation from Q2 going forward. Overall purchase price was $3.9 million, so NOK 43.1 million. And the consideration here is predominantly cash but also seller's credit. So yes, for a year, we've got $1 million that we hold back and then pay in 12 months' time after the closing. So you'll start to see those coming through in the Q1 and the Q2 results as we go into 2025. Going then back to the Q4 and the numbers. I guess, this is just a snapshot we show in terms of the overall business. A couple of points to note, I guess, AGR is now sitting there from a revenue perspective as the largest part of the business because of the consolidation of Ross Offshore in Q4 as we had in Q3. It also has marine operations going through there. So I'll come back to the impact of marine operations when I go through some of the details. But that makes the revenue, I guess, a bit more lumpy when we look at the AGR segment going forward. As Reuben mentioned, from the ABL's point of view, a bit of a downturn in terms of overall utilization during the quarter, so lower utilization there. And we've also had some bad debt in that period, but I'll come back to that when we go through the details. OWC is around about breakeven for the quarter. They've taken some cost reduction measures during that quarter and we'll continue to do that through Q1 of 2025 to manage the cost base relative to where the market is at present. And as we've indicated before, we don't see an upturn in the market until the second half of 2025. And then Longitude is the smallest part of the business, but lumpy in terms of project completion. So we have a very strong quarter here in terms of 34% EBIT margin during that quarter. Our corporate costs are about 6.6%. So that gives us 3.6% in terms of the overall EBIT margin in the quarter, and that's comparable to a 6% as the guidance through the cycle that we get to the market with the mix of businesses we have at present. Turning then to a bit more of the detail. I mentioned from an ABL perspective lower utilization during the quarter, so that's reflected in terms of where we are in terms of margin compared to this time of last year. We also had $400,000 of bad debt in the ABL sector. Large part of that is attached to Pemex in Mexico. So our policy is that after we have a receivables outstanding for 12 months, we make a full provision. So we've taken that provision in Q4. We still do see with the unwinding of payments coming out of Pemex that we'll start to recover that hopefully in the first half of 2025. And then with the lower utilization, I guess, predominantly, I'd focus around the Americas region where during Q4, they've already taken actions to reduce their cost base. We should see the benefits of that as we come into 2025. From an OWC perspective, continued downturn in the market we've been talking about now for probably 4 or 5 quarters. And as I mentioned, we don't expect that to recover until the second half of 2025, although we have seen a bit of an uptick in terms of our tendering activities more recently. OWC, as I mentioned, it's taken cost reduction measures through Q4 2024 and there will be further cost reduction measures as we come into 2025. So hopefully, we'll get that to a position of returning to profitability before we see the recovery in the market. Longitude, as I mentioned, very strong performance during the quarter. But I think if you look at the bottom table, with Longitude here, you see in terms of the margin level how lumpy that business could be dependent on when there are completions happening on the project. So we're at 34% this quarter. A couple of quarters before, we were at 10%. So that's the lumpiness of that business. And finally, AGR performing quite well. So we have the integration of Ross Offshore during this quarter. The underlying business that we had from AGR before Ross is performing well. From a Ross perspective, we've mentioned before, we also acquired there our marine operations business. So this is where we're chartering a vessel and passing that through to a client and then we're adding services to that vessel. So we make a good margin in terms of the added services, but the pass-through of that cost of the vessel virtually goes at 0 or a very small margin. So when the boat is out and working, you'll see an increase in our revenue, but not attached to the margin. We'll get the margin that comes through the product deliverables we have. I think the other thing with that business is actually we've got a lot of cash up front. So it will have an impact in terms of our working capital. And I think if we've got material cash we're sitting on at the end of the quarter, because of that, we will just disclose what that cash is at the time. Turning then to the, I guess, the abbreviated statements from the income statement. Revenue is up 27%. Costs are up -- operating costs are up 32%. So that's Ross Offshore coming in, so a structurally lower-margin business. The drivers in terms of revenue growth is obviously Ross. But underlying that, the Longitude business has had a good quarter, so up 30-odd percent. That gives us an EBIT of $2.4 million. You see down below the adjustments we have in terms of our EBIT. So the restructuring costs. The OWC business, as part of taking out costs, it's also exited the hydrogen consultancy business. So we've taken the cost of that out as it's nonrecurring. M&A costs we provide under IFRS under the operating cost, but we take those out because they're nonrecurring. And then the amortization of PPA intangibles go through the business and we adjust that in terms of our EBIT as we have done before. So that gives us $3.1 million in terms of EBIT during the quarter, and as I said, 3.6% in terms of margin. And in terms of the cash flow, so our profit before tax at $3.1 million. Adjusting for FX, working capital and the noncash items gives us a really strong cash flow position of $5.9 million during the quarter from an operating perspective. Cash going out the business. So from investing $1.4 million going out there in terms of ongoing CapEx projects, but also the conclusion of the Hidromod acquisition, which we paid for in Q4. And then from a financing perspective, largely the outflow to shareholders, so $5.2 million in terms of distribution to shareholders coming in the form of $4.9 million in terms of the dividend payment and the remainder in terms of buyback of shares during the quarter. That gives us a net cash outflow during the quarter of $1.9 million. And after adjusting for FX, we're at $19.5 million cash at the end of the quarter. And then from a balance sheet perspective, not that many movements. We start at $19.5 million of cash. Short-term borrowings to the RCF facility, we have no drawings on that during the quarter. So that stays the same at $14.6 million to give us the $4.8 million of net cash we have. In terms of working capital, the calculation basis here, just to remind you, we're making a comparison back to 1 quarter of revenue, whereas historically we've done the average of the last 2 quarters. We've made that change because of the number of transactions we have it gives a quicker reflection in terms of the impact of the M&A businesses coming into the ABL Group. We ended at 40% Q4 in terms of the working capital ratio. We still have 30% to 40% in terms of our guidance. But obviously, with the marine operations business, that can get some variability in that number. And then finally from me, in terms of the dividend payment. As Reuben mentioned, the Board decided to recommend NOK 0.45 per share for the first half of 2025, which will equate to $5.3 million in terms of dividend payment out to shareholders to be approved at the AGM on the 28th of May. And this will actually be in the form of a repayment of paid-in capital rather than a straight distribution. And in terms of finishing 2024, over the year, we paid out NOK 0.8 per share over the period, which equates to $9.7 million of distribution to shareholders. With that, I'll pass you back to Reuben to take us through the outlook.

Thank you. Firstly, for people online, if you have any questions -- sorry, I should have mentioned this earlier, please put your questions in the chat room and we will answer them at the end. So just before I get into the outlook, let's talk a little bit about the operation as well. because you've seen the slight margin decline across ABL. And like I said, maybe we should have taken some actions earlier. We're not perfect in everything that we did, but we have taken actions. And like I said, with the dividend that we're now forecasting for 2025, subject to the AGM, we believe in what we've done. We believe in the operations that we have. We believe in the changes that we've taken. What you see here, we continue to increase the head count year-on-year, quarter-on-quarter within ABL segment. Yet at the same time, we did have some decline in the utilization, and hence, why we had the decline in the EBIT in Q4. But we have taken the right actions. We see the way the market is going, we're going to talk about the market in a moment, and I think what we're doing is the right way ahead. If you look in OWC, you will see a decrease in the head count, but that also includes the Operation Golden Eagle, which is our onshore technical due diligence in the Americas, where we did increase the head count. But the net effect is still a reduction in head count. And that's because we continue to make the change in OWC. If you saw on the numbers, the actual revenue is down by close to $2 million -- $1 million year-on-year, the EBIT is flat year-on-year. So we continue to make these changes. The question was, did we take them early enough? The answer is probably no. We should have taken some of these actions earlier. We hold our hands up to that. But the actions we've taken we hope to see some of that coming through very early, and we'll talk about that in a moment. And the increase in AGR is predominantly through Ross Offshore, and Longitude is flat although we will be bringing in Proper Marine in there as well. One other comment to make as well is about our use of freelancers. During this period, we've tried to reduce the use of freelancers. That's the ability that we have to try and take out these lumps and humps. It doesn't look like there has been a large decrease, but actually, the decrease is bigger than you think because they're bringing in of -- Ross Offshore brings in a lot more freelancer base. So if you take the net effect, the pro forma, there was actually a reasonable reduction in our freelancer usage during Q4. So how does things look going forward? There's a lot of mixed discussion about renewables. In particular, a lot of mixed discussion about offshore wind, where is it going? OWC was very focused on offshore wind and we've tried to divest away from that and tried to put more into onshore wind, solar, battery and other type of renewable energies. And we continue that push. But the offshore wind is still there. There are some very good bright spots. If you look at the level of bidding that we've had over the last 4, 5 months, there is a big increase in the bidding. If you look at our win rates, there's a big increase in the win rates, which will go into 2025. If you remember, we talked about slipping this into the back end of 2025. And at the moment, we believe that, that was how it will continue. And as I said, if you just look at the win rates, if you look at our bidding rates, it kind of suggests that. Remember, offshore wind is not only about the European sector. It is also across Asia, it's down in South America and so on. So it's a mixed bag. The graph still showed the same thing. The long term is still the same thing. ABL is here for the long term. OWC is here for the long term. And we believe in what we're doing is the right way ahead. And like I said, we are starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel in offshore wind. But if you look in the oil and gas, that's also been a bit of a mixed bag over 2024. We monitor both CapEx and OpEx spending. In particular, we look at the rig count and the rig fleet utilization. There is a decline in the rig fleet utilization. At one point at the end of last year, middle of last year, everything was going rock and roll in the rig-related activity. And then all of a sudden, you saw Aramco drop some of their rigs and then a further drop in rigs and so on. But those rigs have been redistributed. They've gone into Asia. Some of them have gone to West Africa. It's even gone down to Brazil. So the activity is there. It shows a small decline in terms of the floater side of the business, relatively flat. But overall, the business is still very healthy going forward. And I'm listening to other stories around the globe of how you see the rig utilizations and it looks quite steady going into 2025. And the same on the spending as well. There's still a lot of projects, which are in flow at the moment. There are some new projects going on in other parts of the globe. Australia is still very strong. Brazil is still very strong. The North Sea here in Norway is very strong. So we still see the outlook as being very positive in the oil and gas side of the business going into 2025. So just to wrap up and a summary. It was a bit of a mixed bag. I think 2024 for ABL Group was a mixed bag. Between a very volatile oil and gas market, between a decline in the offshore wind market, we had to take change. We had to, at times, put the brakes on and make those changes, and we have done that. The question is did we do it early enough? The answer is probably no. But we've made those changes, and we continue to make those changes to get our EBIT and our EBIT margin up. We've had an increase from Q3 over Q2, Q4 over Q3 and we go -- and we're very positive with the way things are going into 2025. I think with the fact that we've announced the dividend subject to the AGM being an increase next year tells you how we believe in our operations and how we believe in the market. The renewable market is still not through all the downturn yet. There is still a lot of things to be done, particularly in the offshore wind space, but we are seeing fruit coming through. And the oil and gas space just continues, whether or not it be in Australia or Brazil or the Middle East, we're still seeing good action. So a lot of things that we need to do. We're going to integrate Hidromod, one of our acquisitions last year. We're going to integrate Proper Marine. We're going to close and then integrate Techconsult. And we continue to look for acquisitions. We continue to look for the ability to buy more companies. One of the other actions, which is not on here was that actually the last 3 or 4 acquisitions we've actually funded with our own cash. We haven't gone out to the market. We haven't raised additional funding. We've used our own cash, which is different than where we were a couple of years ago where we were going out to get that funding. So mixed bag for 2024, mixed bag for Q4, but there is improvement. And we continue to see the signs of that improvement going into 2025. So that's how we'll end. I don't know if there's any questions online or questions from the room, but thank you very much for your attention this morning.

We can start with questions online. So could you provide some more color on the relatively weak margin in the ABL segment?

So that was these actions, which maybe we should have taken. The oil and gas market is a good market. It's a strong market. It's a positive market, but it's had its ups and downs. Like I said, you had Saudi Arabia looks like the rock star and then, boom, 30-odd rigs go out the market. So we recruited and we continue to recruit. You see the head count continue to recruit in Q3, Q4, Q2. Every quarter, we continue to increase that head count for the market that we see and saw ahead. But at the same time, there were some moving of rigs. Some of the projects went a little bit to the right and that immediately started to see a downturn in our utilizations. A downturn of 4%, 5% in our utilization makes a big impact on EBIT. So it's a mix between we continue to recruit and then we saw a decrease in our utilization. Now we've had to make that change going into 2025 to get that utilization back up again. So the action, should we have recruited as fast as we did? Should we have continued that recruitment in line of how we saw the market? I think the answer is yes. The question still is should we recruit as fast? We've got to get the utilization back up again. And that's the reason why we have the decrease in the EBIT of ABL.

The next one. ABL has been on a steady decline in terms of EBIT in the last 4 quarters. Is this a trend?

Well, it looks like a trend, obviously. But again, like I said, if we had not done that recruitment, the EBIT -- actually the margin, in particular, would have gone up and the EBIT would have gone up. We had brought in more head count to take what we believe is the market. If I look at the -- we don't break it down here, but if I look at the segments, the regions of ABL, ABL Asia is doing very, very well. ABL in Middle East is doing very, very well. ABL in Europe has been quite steady. But we have seen a decline across the Americas. And then we've been impacted as well by the bad debt provision in the Americas also. So it's not a decline of ABL. I won't say that, and I won't say that there is a decline in ABL overall. What I will say is there's been peaks and troughs in the regions of ABL and we're having to deal with that, make those changes. Those changes are being implemented now. So it's not a trend. It looks like a trend, but it's not and we are doing the right things to fix it to get our utilizations back up and to get our EBIT back up. And we will put a lot of focus on that going into 2025.

You have done a string of acquisitions over the last few years. Revenues and share counts are increasing, but net profits are falling. Is there something wrong with the operational model?

No, we wouldn't do the acquisitions if we didn't think it was good for our model. We need to take away -- if you look at what we do, when we buy an acquisition, why do we do it? We do it because we want to strengthen our position in a particular market. We want to strengthen our position in a particular region. So if you look at the acquisition of Proper Marine into Longitude, we continue to strengthen Longitude. If you look at the acquisition of Ross Offshore into AGR, it strengthens AGR's position. But any acquisition you do takes time. It's not you flick a switch, you get acquisition, you get the EBIT, all is great. It takes time. You've got to integrate a company. You've got to integrate the culture of a company. So you will see that coming through. We've done 3 or 4 acquisitions in the last 12 months, but we've made the right acquisitions to continue to grow our business. But at the same time, we were recruiting people organically. You have the organic growth and you have the inorganic growth and maybe we recruited too fast, maybe we recruited too hard and that's impacted our EBIT. And that's down to our performance and that's down to us to make those changes. Myself and the management of ABL Group will continue to make those changes to get our EBIT back up. But the acquisitions we're doing are the right acquisitions to really put our footprint in the sand for whatever it is that we do. Whether or not that's in AGR segment or engineering segment, we will continue to do it, but we need to continue to monitor our utilizations as well.

I think we have covered the questions online, so we can open up for questions from the audience.

I can start. It sounds like you're more optimistic to the offshore wind market now, and you reaffirm the view of a market upturn in the second half of 2025. How should we think about the OWC margin going forward through the year?

So we've set the target. I can tell you exactly what that target is. But we've set a target. It is not 0. It is not to be loss-making. It is not to be in the single low digits. That's not what we want as an organization. We've had to make the change. We've had to remove people from the organization. I'm not sure yet that offshore windows is flick a switch and back on the way up. But we have been better the way we do our business. But there is light at the end of the tunnel in offshore wind. If you look at the bidding, the bidding -- there's a big ramp-up in bidding, there's a big ramp up in our win rate. So I don't think offshore wind is still -- is out of it. I think they've hit the bottom. I think we're starting to see offshore wind come out of where they were. It's the first major downturn in offshore wind ever. Solar has been through it, onshore wind has been through it. But offshore wind has never been through it. So this is offshore wind coming out. and fixing themselves. That's not only for OWC, but for the offshore wind market generally. So I think it is better. I still believe that the second half of the year we will see some improvement, but I see our own winning and I see our own bidding. That's how I can gauge it, not necessarily on the results. The results are the action of us reducing head count or increasing utilization. But going forward, what's going forward is important and the win rate that we have and the bidding that we have shows an improvement. So that's why we're more positive about it. So it's not to be running at 0, it's not to be running at low single-digit EBIT. That is not the plan of this company. But we need to make those adjustments to get to where we want to be. But it's not where it is now. So without guiding you, which I'm not prepared to do yet, we need to see more improvement and we'll continue to make the changes.

One final one from me and going off the OWC question. you have taken measures in cutting costs and reducing head count. Can you elaborate a little bit more about what cost measures you've implemented and are trying to implement?

It's not one. I mean, there are so many. We're across, what, 44, 45 countries now. So there's a lot of things that you can do. First of all, the main one is utilization. We've got to get our utilization up. That's the key to this. There's a lot of cost saving measures that we can take, the way -- we can be more efficient with the way we use our time. Obviously, there's travel costs. There's a lot of different costs that you can do that we want to try and clean up. Going to conferences, flights and so on, use our network better. The main cost saving is to reduce some of that head count and get us more utilized. It's all about the utilization. 1% utilization makes a huge difference for this company. So we've got to get this utilization up and that's the change that we're making right now. We've started making it in Q3. We made more changes in Q4. We'll continue to make in Q1. But that's the main thing. And the question is should we have started earlier? And I think we have to put our hands up as a management and say that we didn't take the change quick enough. But we're doing it now. We started it in Q3. We're doing more in Q4. But other cost saving measures are there as well, travel, general overhead, systems, HR, IT, all the other things which are there, just to keep cleaning up that cost. And even when you acquire a company, you merge offices. I don't know how many legal entities this company has had, hundreds of legal entities as we continue to buy companies. We've got to clean up this. Every legal entity has audit fees. Every legal entity has finance fees and bank accounts. Got to keep cleaning them up, reduce this overhead within the organization, and that's happening as well at the moment.

Yes. You seem to have paid a pretty good price for your acquisitions. So what will you do going forward? Is there a lot of cost to be taken out?

So Proper Marine in Brazil is stand-alone in Brazil. It is going to be integrated into Longitude. We can't bring the 2 offices together, it's not possible. If you look at Proper Marine's office, I mean, in terms of integrating them, it's not like we can get one big office overnight, that's not going to happen. So I'm not sure there's a lot of cost savings necessarily with Proper Marine. Yes, they'll come on to our IT system. Yes, they will come into our ERP system and so on. But there won't be a lot of cost savings in Proper Marine. The main thing for Proper Marine is can you use them for the work we do in Singapore or in Asia and deliver it in Brazil? That's what we're going to get out of Proper Marine. Although I have to say, they're very busy with their own. Their own backlog and utilization is actually very, very good in Proper Marine. So I don't know how much capacity they will have. The question is can we grow Proper Marine in Brazil to help the rest of Longitude? That's the plan for them. If you look at Techconsult. They're in Bergen, we're in Bergen. There will be some cost savings in bringing offices together, but not a lot. The main thing for Techconsult is to bring the databases. I think they have a database of 16,000, 17,000 people. And when we merge the 2 databases, we'll have over 23,000 people in the database. So it's not necessarily a cost savings when we get Techconsult. It's more about how can we grow the business, the revenues and the EBIT by bringing on Techconsult. So each one has a different thing. Some of them you can get more cost savings, some of them you get more synergy working together. I think in these cases, it's more about the revenue synergies than the cost savings, bringing them -- that's what I think. But it won't stop us from trying to reduce costs. We'll do that as well if we can. But I think they're limited in both cases.

And in terms of the overall margin, I mean, you mentioned -- or you did mention not low single-digit target for OWC, and at the same time, 6.5% operating margin over the cycle, right? I mean, can you put any sort of time line here for that?

Yes. I mean, it's interesting. Just watching January as an example, Stuart talked about the lumpiness of the boat. So this boat brings on a lot of revenue in very, very little margin. So it's something that we're going to have to figure out as we keep presenting these figures to you. And obviously, Ross is a structurally different business than ABL. ABL should be back into the 20s. That's where they were. But Ross is not going to be in 20%. That's not going to happen. AGR is not going to get to 20% EBIT margins. I think AGR and Ross together right now are actually doing quite well. And if you remove the boat out of the numbers, that business is actually very good. If you look at when we bought them, they were down in the 3% margin, 3%, 4%. They're now running at 7%. And if you move the boat, it's even higher. So I think that's doing quite well. Longitude goes up and down. One minute it's 35%, next minute it's 10%. But it's a good business. It's a very solid business, and we're going to try and remove some of these peaks and troughs by expanding Longitude. The ABL one is the one. Right now, it's down in 15%, 16%. It needs to get back to 20%. And I think when you combine all these business together -- and of course, OWC has been running at 0, [ that even ] loss-making. And if we can get that back to where it needs to be, even the high single-digit numbers, we'll get back to those numbers. We've said -- I think 6.5% is what we guided, correct, at 6.5% through the cycle. We still believe that. But a lot of that, of course, now with AGR becoming the largest single revenue generator in the company, that brings the overall margin down. But there's no reason why we can't get this company back to where it needs to be with those 4 segments where they used to be. But we need to make the change -- keep making the change. I think you look out the window, you see the renewables and the offshore wind space going really down. When you see oil and gas, really, you're not quite sure what's happening day by day, whether or not you're in Brazil or Australia. Our job is to keep monitoring this, make the changes within the organization to get our margins back up. That's what we will aim on during 2025. Any other questions? No. Okay. Then we will stop there. Thank you very much, everyone, and I look forward to seeing you all again in a few months' time. Thank you.