ArborGen Holdings Limited (RUBNF) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Good morning. Welcome to ArborGen's Annual Shareholder Meeting. I'm Dave Knott, the Chairman of the Board. It's great to be back in New Zealand to meet shareholders and talk about ArborGen's performance and outlook. Thank you for joining us today. I'm pleased to advise that a quorum is present and that the meeting has been duly convened. The notice of meeting, which includes explanatory notes, has been circulated to all shareholders, and I intend to take it as read. The audited financial statements for the year ended 31 of March 2025 were released on the 26th of June and included in the annual report. In attendance today are representatives from our auditors, Grant Thornton, as well as members of the ArborGen team and other advisers. Welcome to you all. For those of you attending the meeting online, if you would like to submit a question, the Q&A is always open, so please feel free to submit questions throughout the meeting. These will be addressed at the relevant time. Please also note that your questions may be moderated if we receive multiple questions on one topic, amalgamated together. When asking questions in the room, please use the microphone and introduce yourself by name. A reminder that only shareholders, proxy holders or corporate representatives may ask questions during the meeting. Any questions not answered in time will receive an e-mail response after the meeting. Voting today will be conducted by way of poll. I now declare voting open for all resolutions. If you are eligible, you'll be able to cast your vote under the Vote tab. You have the ability to vote at any time up until the time I declare voting closed. Moving on to my address. I'm pleased to be joined today by our 2 New Zealand-based directors, Paul Smart and George Adams as well as ArborGen's CEO, Justin Birch, who you will hear from shortly; and our CFO, Christina Green. Joining us online from the U.S. are directors, Tom Avery and Ozey Horton. George is standing for reelection today, and you'll hear from him later in the meeting. ArborGen remains a global leader in advanced genetic seedlings. Every year, we proudly deliver millions of seedlings to more than 2,000 customers worldwide. Today, our network spans 26 seedling nurseries and orchards with a production capacity around 500 million seedlings annually. This scale, combined with our expertise, positions us at the forefront of our industry. Our goal remains clear and unwavering: To grow sales of our advanced genetic seedlings in our target markets, delivering greater value for forest owners, stronger returns for our business and increased rewards for you, our shareholders. In fiscal year '25, despite the challenges we faced, we remain firmly focused on maximizing opportunities for ArborGen. We continue to advance MCP adoption in the U.S., secure new expansion opportunities in Brazil and continue to build our carbon offset business, areas that hold strong potential for the future and are our primary growth opportunities. We strengthened our executive teams in both the U.S. and Brazil, ensuring we have the skills, experience and bench strength to deliver on our strategy. We have a disciplined approach to capital management, selling surplus assets and making responsible investments that fuel growth. We've also focused on strengthening our business, building greater resilience and reducing risk. Together, these priorities are positioning us to navigate the current environment and emerge stronger in the years ahead. FY '25 was a challenging year with economic, market and weather challenges impacting results. Continued growth in Brazil was offset by a soft result in the U.S. as headwinds persisted. We were disappointed not to be able to maintain last year's record revenue result with soft market conditions in both countries hampering our sales. However, it was pleasing to see the year ending on a stronger note. The Board considered the carrying value of our intangible assets as part of the year-end process and elected to recognize an impairment of $21.8 million related to intellectual property. Including this, reported net loss after tax was $21.5 million. U.S. GAAP EBITDA increased 47%, benefiting from the gain on sale of the in vitro business during the year. Excluding one-off and unusual transactions, adjusted U.S. GAAP EBITDA was $8.8 million, in line with guidance. This was below the fiscal year '24 record result, but similar to fiscal year '23 performance. Our balance sheet remains solid. We are reinvesting earnings into growth, managing working capital with discipline and funding expansion in both the U.S. and Brazil. Net debt reflects strategic investment in the share buyback program. We are currently working to sell the Ridgeville building. Once sold, the proceeds will be used to reduce debt and make a meaningful difference to our balance sheet. We continue to invest into production expansion and resilience, expanding container capacity at 2 U.S. nurseries, adding hardwood cooler space at a deep well, completing our new smaller U.S. headquarters and automating inventory counts. In Brazil, we grew our footprint with the acquisition of additional eucalyptus nursery while continuing R&D and product development across both regions. Planned initiatives for this year include upgraded irrigation systems, putting in place backup power and continued orchard expansion. In Brazil, we're investing in drought-mitigation measures and building a new R&D lab to support future innovation. At this stage, the Board believes reinvesting cash into growth initiatives, paying down debt and repurchasing the company's shares at attractive prices will create longer-term value than paying a dividend. As I said last year, your Board believes the ArborGen share price is disconnected from our fundamental value. On the 31st of March this year, our net assets were $140 million, while our market cap was only $41 million. There are several reasons we can see for this. Our total market cap remains relatively modest, which unfortunately places us below the threshold for most institutional investors. While we remain focused on sharing our story, it has been difficult to attract institutional investors or funds to a smaller company listed in New Zealand, but with our operations offshore. This lack of institutional presence further limits the visibility and demand in the market. We also have a large number of small investors. More than 80% of our shareholders have holdings of less than 5,000 shares, which can be too small to trade efficiently. This limits daily trading volumes and makes it difficult for buyers and sellers to engage effectively in the market. The share buyback last year provided an opportunity for some investors to sell down or exit. We are actively working to address these challenges. We continue to engage with the investment community and seek interest from potential new investors who understand our long-term strategy and see the value in the business. We remain committed to growing shareholder value, and we'll continue to pursue initiatives that enhance our profile and support a more active and dynamic market for our shares. As we said last year, similar businesses to ours in the U.S. have sold in the last few years for multiples of up to 10x EBITDA. ArborGen's current share price values our company at just 6.3x EBITDA, a significant value gap. As ArborGen's earnings increase, this gap will become even more pronounced, and our company will be increasingly positioned as a value opportunity. Looking ahead, several macro trends will drive growth. In the U.S., a recovery in the housing market will lift demand for high-grade timber. In Brazil, fast-growing eucalyptus is the optimal choice for sustainable pulp. Our superior genetic seedlings offer higher yield, increased resilience and more value for growers in both markets. Reforestation and the emerging carbon markets also offer further long-term opportunities. The Board has full confidence in our strategy to capture these opportunities and deliver sustainable growth in the years to come. ArborGen is strongly positioned for the future. We have a clear strategy and a robust balance sheet. As a market leader in the U.S. and Brazil -- U.S. South and Brazil, we offer unmatched product portfolios and bring decades of research and intellectual property investment that are now delivering real results. In Brazil, we are leveraging our strong position in the pine and eucalyptus seedling markets to build a sustainable, highly profitable business that is recognized as the preeminent seedling supplier. And in the U.S., we are focused on driving increased adoption of advanced genetics across the U.S. South, leveraging decades of investment in developing best-in-class proprietary products. We're committed to driving value for shareholders as a result of strong earnings and cash flow growth. Thank you. I'll now hand over to Justin to talk about our progress in more detail.

Thank you, Dave. It's great to be here in New Zealand and with our shareholders to reflect on the last year and talk about our plans for the future. Our dual pathway strategy focusing on go-to-market excellence and operating strength provides a framework for everything that we do. Over the past year, we've taken decisive steps to reduce costs and enhance operational efficiency. As part of this, we sold the in vitro business and moved our head office into smaller premises. We also recalibrated our operations in Brazil as our business scales up and matures, resulting in a stronger team, improved financial processes and systems and a strong platform for future growth. We continue to expand our business with Brazilian production capacity up $22 million year-over-year and increasing investments in added value container -- in value-added container seedlings in the U.S. in response to customer demand. Over the last 3 years, our Brazilian sales have grown by an average of 18.3% per annum. While macro conditions in the U.S. remain challenging, we continue to hold our position as the leading provider of advanced genetic seedlings. We have a clear pathway to growth and are focused on driving significant progress and financial improvement in fiscal year '26. Looking at the performance of each of our markets in FY '25. The U.S. South continues to face challenging market conditions remaining on the lower end of the cycle. Revenue was down 9% year-on-year due to subdued housing construction and reduced mill production and harvesting. We are fortunate to only suffer minimal orchard damage from Hurricane Helene in September of 2024, though many clients for us were devastated with reforestation expected between 2026 and 2028, an opportunity for ArborGen. After the damage caused by Hurricane Michael some years ago, we have been building our seed inventories. While this has come -- while this has some cost, it provides added resilience to our business. We continue to expand our production and sales of containerized seedlings in response to customer demand. These provide more flexibility in planting programs and are more resilient to weather conditions and on challenging sites. Good momentum has also been seen from our strengthened sales team, which has been in place since the second half of 2025. Our Brazil business has been growing rapidly. And over the past year, we recalibrated our operations to ensure a strong platform for continued growth. While volumes were flat, revenue grew 11% in local currency. Demand in eucalyptus remains solid, though an oversupply of market clones put some pressure on pricing. We are strategically shifting towards protected clones, which deliver higher value and long-term revenue stability even if there's short-term margin impacts as production hedges are established. Last year's drought-constrained production, limiting our ability to sell during the dry period and to fully meet strong post-drought demand and resulting in higher cost, we are now investing in overflow growth areas to overcome these production bottlenecks and better serve our customers moving forward. We reinvest earnings into our local business, and therefore, foreign exchange rates only impact when reporting on consolidated results when we need to convert from the local currency to USD. We are focused on optimizing total productivity across the business. At the same time, we are strengthening the organization and building a high-performance culture. Our efforts this year have improved efficiencies, reduced costs and increased our resilience. We've added management capability and are focused on culture, communication and creating a rewarding workplace. Combined with our clear growth strategy, these actions create a strong foundation for sustainable future success. As you can see from the graph, our market opportunity is significant, upwards of 1.2 billion seedlings compared to our current sales around 300 million. While the overall market is competitive, ArborGen is a leader in advanced genetic seedlings. We have a significant opportunity to build scale and win market share as the value and durability of high-performance genetics is accepted and realized. The U.S. South is a more mature market and our focus on the sale of higher-value advanced genetics products and thoughtful growth. This will primarily be organic growth, such as expansion of our container offering, but we will also consider M&A if appropriate and if it meets the Board's criteria. Around 70% of timber use is in residential housing and home improvements. High interest rates and turmoil in economic and political realms have led to the current subdued housing market. However, there's a significant pent-up demand and a shortfall of approximately 3 million to 5 million homes across the United States. As demand for pulp continues to fall after significant declines seen already, more value will be on saw timber coming from higher-quality trees. ArborGen's MCP seedlings are ideally suited for higher-grade saw timber, providing greater yield, faster growth and straighter logs. This slide shows more clearly the changes in mix across the mill production sector. Pulp mill closures have reduced capacity by around 16% in the last 3 years, although several firms are investing with some capacity recovery expected as these come online in the next few years. The exciting opportunity for ArborGen is the growth in sawtimber. A reminder that we operate in a market with very long lead times. The trees planted now will be harvested in around 25 to 30 years. So our customers are looking 2 to 3 decades -- looking forward 2 to 3 decades to see where the demand will be. We are seeing more customers starting to plant higher-quality trees as the market for low-quality pulpwood starts to reduce. However, sometimes this also means planting less densely so individual trees can grow bigger. There's also increasing demand for OSB-engineered wood panels. This is well suited to plantation forestry as the trees can be smaller and lower quality and can be harvested earlier. Again, this is a good opportunity for us as our MCP trees grow faster. Not all controlled pollinated loblolly pine seedlings are created equal. By choosing ArborGen MCP seedlings, our customers benefit from our decades of forest science, field trials and genetic gains. The longest, straightest and strongest southern loblolly pine are optimal for telephone or utility poles and demand the highest prices. Next in value is saw timber. Depending on seedling genetics and location, a final harvest can yield 70 to 140 tonnes per acre of sawtimber, which is considerably more valuable than pulp timber. Our team provides forestry expertise and customer service to ensure landowners get the most out of every tree they grow. The carbon market remains in its infancy, yet it presents a tremendous opportunity for forest landowners to participate in long-term conservation while generating income. As a key supplier to Chestnut Carbon, we have provided the seedlings for over 17 million trees planted across 30,000 acres in the U.S. South. Chestnut Carbon has signed carbon offtake agreements with buyers, including Microsoft, and is now planting hundreds of thousands of acres to support these projects. The Microsoft agreement alone aims to restore 60,000 acres of forest over the next 25 years, making the largest carbon removal agreement Microsoft has signed in the U.S. By 2030, the global carbon credit market is projected to reach from USD 7 billion to USD 35 billion with some estimates that it could grow as much to $250 billion by 2050. Landowners can earn income from climate-smart forestry projects such as aforestation and reforestation. The U.S. South is an attractive area due to its large forest base, commercial forestry activity and extensive pine research from companies such as ArborGen. ArborGen is well positioned as the seedling supplier of choice for carbon offset projects. Our MCP trees sequester almost 40% more carbon than standard trees because they grow faster. We have better genetics and better gains in the market than our competitors. We have proven ability -- and we have proven our ability to deliver. We are poised to do so as more as the market grows. We see great potential in Brazil to leverage our strong positions in the pine and eucalyptus markets and convert customers to projects with superior genetics. Brazil is the world's largest hardwood pulp producer and eucalyptus demand projected at 1.2 billion seedlings per year. Pine demand also remains strong. Recently, we have seen a rapid escalation in production capacity across the sector in eucalyptus, particularly for market clones. This has created an increasing price volatility and higher customer demand -- higher customer quality demands. There is a growing market for new, higher-quality clones with higher yields that are also more resilient and biodiverse, and this presents an opportune landscape for ArborGen. We are the only company in Brazil focused solely on supplying seedlings with superior genetics. Our U.S. and Brazil teams are working closely together to share knowledge, enhance our technology and develop new and better seedlings. Our protected clone seedlings offer higher yields and higher wood density than standard market clones, improved disease and insect resistance and good drought tolerance. We are moving quickly to leverage demand with investment into nurseries and development of production hedges to transform more product from market or unprotected clones to protected clones. In the early years, as production has transitioned to production -- protected clones, yields are lower, resulting in a higher cost of sales. However, long term, the commercial fundamentals are strong. In the U.S., the housing market remains subdued, and some landowners are postponing harvesting. However, we are seeing strong demand for container seedlings and are continuing to invest in MCP production as the demand for high-grade sawtimber becomes a longer-term priority. Several hail and rains in Texas have caused significant damage to production, and we are managing our inventory carefully to meet demand. However, this will have some impact on our sales and costs this year. In Brazil, the eucalyptus market remains hot, while there's also been high demand for pine. ArborGen broke its pine sales record in May and then again in June. The domino effect of the drought last year has caused a eucalyptus seedling shortage across the entire market. We are focused on managing supply and allocation to meet demand. For fiscal year '26, we're anticipating improvements in revenue and gross margin despite ongoing headwinds, particularly in the U.S. South. We're expecting adjusted U.S. GAAP EBITDA to be between USD 11 million and USD 12 million, an increase of at least 25% on fiscal year '25. We are carefully managing production, supply and competitor activity to achieve our goals. In the U.S. South, market conditions are expected to remain weak until at least 2026. Nonetheless, sales activity will support some revenue and volume growth with a higher focus on value-added products such as MCP and containerized seedlings. We are also well positioned as the seedling supplier of choice for the emerging carbon market. Given the slow return to normal market conditions in the U.S. plus production losses from the Texas rains, we anticipate limited growth in the U.S. South this year. In Brazil, volume growth is anticipated with some short-term margin impact from the current excess market capacity. The full year benefit of our new nursery and the continued shift into protected genetics, combined with a focus on improved product mix and pricing, position us well for sustainable growth. As Dave highlighted, there's a clear disconnect between our current share price and the underlying value of the company. To underscore my own confidence in the business and the future, I've recently increased my investment by purchasing an additional 750,000 shares on market. I'm fully committed both personally and professionally to the success of this company. Thank you, and I'll now pass back to Dave.

Thank you, Justin. I would now like to open to invite questions in relation to the annual report for today's presentation. There will be an opportunity to ask questions about the resolutions once they have been put to shareholders. If you would like to ask a question and are in the room, please raise your hand and wait for the microphone to be brought to you. Are there any questions? [ Glenn ].

My name is [indiscernible].

Not sure the mic worked. Try again.

My name is [indiscernible] Chen. I'm one of the new recent shareholders. I have several questions regarding the presentation and the annual report. For the carbon credit market, you mentioned about the global markets in the amount of dollars, but I would like to know the carbon credit market for this particular company. And the second question is the tariff impact. And the third question is related to the -- any details of the intellectual property impairment. What -- I mean, in particular exactly when Ross, so such a huge amount, $21.8 million.

Right. Well, thank you for being a new shareholder. We've got 3 questions. One relates to the carbon markets, one relates to tariffs and one relates to the impairment. Justin, do you want to take?

Yes. So thank you for your question. So as related to the carbon markets, we still view this in the U.S. where we play in this market, it's still a voluntary market. And so our largest customer in that area, and we've continued to grow seedings. So I mean, I think it's still relatively small -- or not small, but it's a very growing market. So you would ask, I think, about size and not only dollars, but what does that impact to ArborGen. But I would say that's millions of -- over 10 million seedlings a year that we're contributing to this market and the impact to ArborGen there. I think the second question was about the impairment analysis. That, I think, fundamentally, it was a noncash charge. The Board of Directors and all of us, as we do a review every year, review the assumptions and the underlying impacts of what those could be. As we've seen significant volatility as demonstrated by our results in the last year, we've increased more sensitivities in our analysis underlying the volatility of the market. And the Board felt comfortable it was prudent to recognize that noncash impairment at this time. I think the third question was about the impacts of tariffs. Fundamentally, our -- the overall sector in forestry, as recently highlighted in the last week by an article in the Wall Street Journal, has seen -- there's been significant lag in building in the U.S. And so that is of some concern. Fundamentally, for our business, the tariff impact hasn't really impacted. There's been, in the U.S., about 25% of wood products or lumber comes from Canada, which would be the largest impact of the tariffs. That has kind of gone up and down, but not a significant amount to the end customer. The impact has really been for the financial uncertainty, the impacts of tariffs going up and down and then the overall economic uncertainty that impacts the housing sector. I think that's the biggest immediate impact. For Brazil, we also have exposure there. It's a very worldwide economy. And although the U.S. has placed new tariffs on production coming out of Brazil, which would impact the hardwood pulp that our eucalyptus trees are ultimately processed and go into, there's -- some of the biggest markets are non-U.S. And so we've not really seen any slowdown or change in worldwide demand for that currently. So I guess just to summarize, I know it's a very intense and broad topic. I think we've not seen the impact. I think the U.S. is suffering because of the overall uncertainty that trends to the forest products business. And like I said, there's been some recent softness in -- especially for the lumber mills that are producing lumber for housing. And so it's kind of a stair-step chain event of the supply chain that leads ultimately to us because if more lumber isn't harvested, then we can't provide the seedlings to replant those things. But the tariffs are kind of one that we actively watch, but there's not one that's been actively hit directly into our industry, although we definitely feel the impacts of the overall uncertainty of the economic climate in the U.S.

Yes. I think from a tariff standpoint in the lumber markets, we're not basing any of our budget on that or anything like that. It's probably neutral for us to slightly positive, however it plays out. With the carbon markets, I think the important part here is, one is the U.S. is very much, as Justin put it, in the early stages of this. For those of you that aren't aware, we have Donald Trump back in office. So I'm not expecting any big leaps and gains there over the next 3.5 years. But I think the real important part is that the visionary investors out there that are building carbon businesses for the future like Chestnut Carbon have come to us for their seedlings. And as those businesses continue to evolve and grow and new ones enter, the thought process is they will be coming to us for their genetics. Yes, sir. Thank you for your question.

Allan Best, I'm a shareholder. The gross margin declined a bit again. It's come down from about 38% over a period of years. And yet you say that the margin in North America was, in fact, about 35%. That means that the margin in Brazil was particularly lower. And I wonder if you could explain that a little more than you have already. I know you've addressed it, but I can't quite understand what the difficulty was in Brazil and why you think you can improve that margin in Brazil?

Yes. Thanks, Allan. I'll just talk about the...

You can hear me? Is this one? Okay. Sorry, I'm back. No, thank you for the question. So I think -- and apologies if it's confusing. You are right. Brazil presents an interesting challenge. So we have 2. It's really a lot of product mix. So we have what we call the unprotected or what we call market clones. Those are genetics that's available for any nursery to plant. There's no -- there's no protection -- intellectual property protection to do that. And that's an area that in the -- like, for example, in fiscal year '24, there was hugely strong pricing, but it's also the most volatile because it's the easiest area for new supply to come into the market. So we've seen swings intra-year of 20-plus percent depending on timing, market demand if big customers try and put the squeeze on suppliers. Our long-term goal is to push more into protected genetics. Now there's a higher cost to that, but it's more stable. So at the best pricing, there's probably higher margins on the market clones, but it can swing these big things. And we saw more of an increase of that last year. So our goal and our strategic vision has been to push more into protected genetics that have a more stability of margin. So maybe we -- those have generally higher prices. There are higher cost to produce it, but there's not a lot of other outlets to go to really get those protected genetics. And so I think when we referenced in the presentation that we view margin building, look, there is some investment. We have to build up the production, not to get too detailed, but in Brazil, you build these hedges where you clip off the trees to plant them in. And it takes a little bit of time to convert hedges from the market clones to the protected clones. And so that's been a little bit of, to your point, of our gross margin change there has been that. And I don't want to underscore in the last fiscal year, too, the impact of the drought. While it seemingly was short for about 4 months, it really had a longer-term impact of the year because not only was there a slower planting by our customers in a period, but it limited our production because at some point, if there weren't seedlings going out the door, we couldn't -- we did not have the space in the nurseries to continue the production so that when the demand came back with the rains in November of last year, we sold out very quickly, but then we still had a lag in production. So I think those 2 areas kind of when you talk about margin are really the mix and then the cost profile being impacted by some of that weather.

Does that help, Alan?

Do you sell containerized seedlings in Brazil?

Yes. So in Brazil, so -- and this is an interesting one. I know it's an education process for everybody. So our containerized means that they're kind of grown in kind of a tube of some sort. And so in Brazil, that's the only way that they're sold. They don't do bare root crops there. And that's partly because we do a different process there, and that's just the custom of how they do it. They have a little bit longer -- with the country and the production levels, it allows for transport a little bit easier than [ bare root] or in the U.S. South, a lot of our nurseries are relatively close to where they're planted on good refrigerated trucks, and so they can kind of move to those areas. But in Brazil, both our pine and eucalyptus are all containerized seedlings that are sold there, and that's pretty much the standard for that country. Where in the U.S., we've -- in our pine, we have a significant bare root presence that can be a lower cost for people and especially if they're close to a nursery, have great results with that product.

Great. Yes, ma'am.

Heidi Chen, shareholder for quite a number of years. Actually, you have great potential, but you don't know your potential. Why? This morning, when I listen to the sports news, they said that the Northern Hemisphere, those football fields, the grass, they are all burned and it's a problem for the football, what should I say, footballers in the Northern Hemisphere. I know your seedlings is of high temperature resistance. That means you already have developed that IP. So it's very easy for you to develop for the high-temperature-resistant grass and sell it to Europe. And Europe, there are so many soccer fans and those big billionaires, they are met in football matches. And I think you can get a very good price from them. And also euro dollars is more valuable than American dollars, and you can get more money from that. But that you have to be quick, yes, not just...

We're into trees because we're not in the grass business.

Yes, sure. But I appreciate you value my suggestion.

Thank you.

Yes. Thank you, David.

No. I mean there might be one thing to say is that the genetics of pine, oddly enough, even though it's a very long tenured thing, it's actually surprising to some. And part of our value of our research is we've looked at other things. The genome of pine is infinitely complex even versus corn. If you look at the number of strands of DNA and everything there, it's almost 100x more complex than even corn is and which really is interesting with just its long tenure and life cycle. So it's definitely a challenge for us to continue that development and really helps us focus on that area.

Thanks, Justin. Yes, sir.

A shareholder. You were saying about the sales of eucalyptus. What do you call it?

Eucalyptus.

The bulk, that gone down. You said there's been a big drop with pulp. Is that right?

Yes. So here's where -- I'm sorry if it's confusing. So in the U.S. South, the pulp mills for pine there had decreased significantly. And so a forest operator there, and that's just because the North American market because it's getting price out of other places like the South America and Brazil because they're building just plantations and thousands and thousands of hectares down there. And so that's really become a worldwide center for the hardwood pulp. In the U.S. South, the pulp used for different products, including paper, has seen a diminishment. So, I guess, in a sense, there's a real strength in the hardwood pulp sector in Brazil, but in the U.S. South, different hemisphere, that sector has declined significantly.

But don't they export that to America?

The finished products, yes.

The finished products from Brazil, you're saying?

Yes.

Yes.

Okay. Is that why Trump is putting such a massive duty on?

You want me to tell you what Trump's thinking?

It's just...

No, I know what you mean.

Well, it's just -- I mean the man is mad in some ways, and he's making...

I'm going to get in trouble when I go back.

Right. Well, I'm just saying -- along the line, it comes where everything gets held up, doesn't it? Everybody is not sure what to do. That's all. And he's got to be in power for another, what is it, 3 years, is it?

3.5 years.

Yes. So good on you for over there. But what I'm trying to say, though, is -- so you're saying in America, even though the pulp is down, what will they grow in its place for what they have already harvest? Will they go for more genetic type of timber or for in the housing? Or what will happen? I know it's a 20-year cycle, but the great thing about eucalyptus, it's such a fast grower. How does all that work, please?

Sorry. So if you're asking about, I guess, just to make sure I'm clear on the geographies. In Brazil, while there's -- yes, the U.S. is an export market for Brazil. I think the solid thing is that a huge area of hardwood pulp growth is actually in other countries around the world as it's used for sanitary products, diapers and other things like that. So other markets and growing middle classes in areas like India are a big consumer of that. So in Brazil, specifically, we view that as an area that -- there's continued billions of dollars investment in mills down there. And this has become effectively. Brazil was known for sugarcane, soybeans, corn. Eucalyptus has now become another stable crop of that area with a worldwide export market.

Yes, I heard what you're saying there. I know what you're saying, but what does America do yourself in the South to combat that because you are having -- your main growing area is in America at this moment, isn't it?

Yes, Brazil and the U.S. are fairly equal. But yes, we sell more volume in the U.S. I think what you're asking though is with our landowners that are buying our seedlings and the pulpwood that they're growing on their land, what do they do with that? And how does that impact the growth going forward?

Well, in America, it's dropped, isn't it, in terms of...

Pulp mills are closing left and right. And I think that's...

So how does that affect you in terms of all your seedlings if they're shutting? That's what I'm saying.

It's a headwind for us right now because our customers don't want to clear all their land because they don't have anywhere to put their pulpwood because the sawmill -- the pulp mill in their local geography is closed down. Long term, this should be a benefit for us because people want to plant better genetics and have more sawtimber and that stuff. Yes, that's the hope there.

Yes, because I'm just looking at Brazil, seems to be taking over. And like you say, in America -- we're having it here. Mills are closing here. But maybe it's because they can get stuff cheaper, which will come in.

It's cheaper to produce those goods that come from the pulp mills in Brazil than it is in the U.S. and probably here as well.

Wow. Amazing. Okay.

Any other questions in the room? One more.

[ Jon ], I'm a shareholder, been for a long time.

Thank you.

Also, I'm really not asking a question, just perhaps a statement of sentiment really because I've seen all your strategic plans over a good number of years, and I can't fault them in the context. Now I have a background in terms of sawmilling and forestry. I ran the Fletcher sawmills back in the '80s and '90s for a period. I was the President of the Timber Federation. And so I know the implication of yield and the implication of genetics being able to improve that yield has always been, to me, a very important issue. Given that I probably, in 1963, as a student was doing genetics at that stage by going into the [ Kanangra ] Forest on a job to pick out the best trees and take the [indiscernible] where they extracted the seed. So -- and many years later, I was a Director of Tarrawarra Forestry. And I can remember looking then at that basic stage then of the improvement of genetics by seeing pine trees being compared over a similar period and their relative growth rates. So all in all, I have sentiment of still holding the shares and probably share the disappointment in many cases, which you expressed that it hasn't translated into the value that you think the balance sheet should be worth. And I would agree with that.

Thank you. I agree as well. Jackie, Pam, do we have any questions online?

For over 5 years, ArborGen has consistently failed to deliver on growth forecast for production and sales. This track record has created a credibility gap when your growth projections are met with skepticism. My question is straightforward for the Chair. Given this extended period of unmet expectations under the current leadership, do you honestly believe you remain the right person to lead this company forward? Do you believe continuing in your current role is in the best interests of shareholders? Sometimes the best thing a leader can do is recognize when it's time for new leadership to take the company in a different direction. Do you think that time is now for you and why?

All right. Well, thank you for the question, I guess. I do think that I'm the best person for the job. I ran for reelection last year where I think this would have probably been a more appropriate question. I'm not quite prepared in prepared remarks today. There was a first part of that question, though, Jackie, which before they got to me, which was...

Consistently failed to deliver.

Yes, that's correct. So I think the important part of that is that, yes, while we may have missed guidance over the years, we've continually grown results, not this year necessarily, but last year, we presented record revenue. Now forecasting and budgeting for this business is incredibly difficult because you're going up against mother nature. And that's just -- it's going to be difficult every single year as a result of that. There's no way to manage around that. We can't tell when a hurricane is coming. We can't tell when heavy rains are coming. And as that just plays into a result of our poor guidance at times. I guess, that's about what I have to say on that.

The next question is from Ian Douglas. In future, is the customer likely to be able to claim carbon credits and sell the same trees for timber? Is there a move to have carbon credits only applicable to permanent forest? This would favor native mixed forest and not clones.

Yes, I'll let Justin take that one.

No, it's a good question. I think right now, pure aforestation are holding on is the -- since it's a voluntary market would be favored, but there are many protocols where there is some allowable felling of trees or cutting of trees where maybe harvest times are extended as one of the ways for carbon credits. Yes, there is that, but the reality is a lot of times, our trees grow faster than native forests and can sequester that carbon more. The job and the work we have is to show that responsible forestry actually is a benefit because if those products that have sequestered carbon are then put and used in a home, for example, that stands for 100 years that continues to hold that carbon and then new trees are planted in that -- to replace that, that also sequester carbon, there's a real story there. Now the challenge is that overall, as an industry, is that an easy one to show politically? That will be the challenge, not only for us, but just the general carbon market because at some point, there's only so much land available to aforest, but we believe this is one that is a real positive story to be able to show that responsible not only aforestation, planting new trees on barren ground, but reforesting land and having that offtake. But yes, that is kind of one of the divides right now in the carbon market that has been -- we've seen.

Another question from Ian Douglas. Can Justin please explain overflow growth areas in Brazil? What that means?

Yes. So what we're doing is we have -- think of our nurseries there in Brazil are really almost like a production line. We take clippings, we put them in there. We grow them in a greenhouse where they're protected for a short period of time. We move them outside to finish kind of what we call hardening up, be exposed to the elements, make a hardy seedling and to grow. Now at some point, when we had the drought last year, we only had so many growth areas. So for a relatively low cost in some of our nurseries, we've been able to pave some areas, put in some basic irrigation to have more final growth areas so that we don't have to stop that production chain from continuing to produce seedlings so that if there is a pause in sales due to drought conditions, for example, which we've luckily, thus far, not seen as severe drought this year, but if there are kind of more ebbs and flows that it doesn't stop our production and lower our average cost. We can move some of those seedlings to other areas to finish growing or kind of maintain a stasis until we can actively sell them. And so that's what we mean by overflow growth areas so that instead of stopping up the whole production chain, we have some outlets to put seedlings to continue their growth journey or to kind of continue to be there until they can be sold while not stopping the overall production line.

We have another question from Stephen Godfrey. Given the increasingly small market cap of this company and the fact that over the years, ArborGen has moved out of noncore activities, which typically leads to less distraction for a Board, do you feel the size of the current Board is still appropriate?

Yes.

Thank you. We have two questions from the New Zealand Shareholders' Association. The first, are your trees genetically selected or genetically modified?

It's genetically selected. So we don't do any modification of the actual genome. It's really about crossing trees and finding the best results as kind of kind of typical breeding.

And the second question is there a market in the U.S. or Brazil for forest waste as a biofuel that is quickly developing in New Zealand?

There are some pieces. For example, in the U.S., one of the sectors that we hope to see continue to develop with the decline in the pulp and paper is wood pellets because they can use kind of that off waste or kind of lower quality trees to do that. And there has been some talk in both areas. It is a growing industry. We have not been able to see it, especially in the U.S. South, take over as a real viable alternative to the kind of pulp paper mill yet, but we hope that, that can be one of the areas that come from that. In Brazil, they have used that as a biofuel in different areas, not to the scale that we've seen with other things, but it is one of those areas that even some of the corn ethanol producers down there have used kind of tree waste as some of their fuel to run their factories as well.

Thank you. That's all we've got online at this stage.

Great. Thank you. I would now like to move to the resolutions before the meeting. These were provided in the notice of meeting and explanatory notes that have been provided. Voting on each of the resolutions in the notice of meeting will be by way of poll. Only shareholders, proxy holders and corporate representatives of a shareholder may vote on today's resolutions. For those in the room, if you do not have a voting paper, please indicate now by raising your hand and a member of Computershare's team will assist you. We will take questions on each resolution as they are put to shareholders. I wish to advise that we have received proxies for approximately 50% of shares. The first resolution is to authorize the directors to fix the fees and expenses of Grant Thornton as the company's auditor. Are there any questions regarding this resolution? Are there any questions online? We now move to the second resolution. George Adams is retiring by rotation and is standing for reelection today. George has been an independent director of our company since August of 2019. He brings outstanding commercial and governance experience from more than 30 years of international business experience as well as a strong background in occupational health and safety. He is a professional director and sits on the Board of several private and public companies, including as Chair of Synlait Milk. The other directors unanimously support the reelection of George Adams as a director. I'll now ask him to say a few words. George?

Thank you, Chair. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good to see you all. I'm offering myself for reelection to the Board today. You will have noticed in my bio that I'm a fellow of the Institute of Chartered Accountants, and I'm a chartered fellow of the Institute of Directors with, as Dave has said, increasingly 30 years of international business experience. Pleasingly, in December last year, I was nominated as 1 of 3 finalists for the New Zealand Chair of the Year, the Annual Deloitte Business Awards. I was elected to the Board in 2019, and I serve on the Audit Committee, the Sustainability Committee, the Nominations Committee. And in 2023, I replaced fellow director, Tom Avery, as the Chair of the Remuneration Committee. As a director, I play my part in building our strategic vision. And in the past several years, we have responded to the current quiet spell in the U.S. with significant focus on other opportunities, namely Brazil and carbon. And I'm confident that these strategies will reward our shareholders with value over time. In seeking your support, I will continue to advocate for shareholders and play an active part in ensuring the business is effectively and efficiently run on your behalf. Thank you.

Thank you, George. Are there any questions for George? Are there any questions online for George? All right. Thank you. That concludes the resolutions. In a minute, I will close the online voting system. Please ensure that you have cast your vote on all resolutions. I will now pause to allow you time to finalize those votes and for the forms to be collected. [Voting]

All right. Voting is now closed. Computershare will collect the voting papers from shareholders in the room. The results of the voting will be posted to the NZX as soon as practicable. That brings the formal part of our meeting to an end. Is there any other business shareholders would like to discuss? All right. Well, thank you for joining our meeting today and for your questions. I now declare the meeting closed. For those shareholders present here today, we invite you to join us for some refreshments.