Ariston Holding N.V. (ARIS) Q4 FY2025 Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon. This is the Chorus Call conference operator. Welcome, and thank you for joining the Ariston Group Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2025 Results Presentation. [Operator Instructions]. At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Ms. [ Ilaria Candotti ], Head of IR. Please go ahead, madam.

Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to Ariston Group Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2025 Results Call. Joining me today are Maurizio Brusadelli, Chief Executive Officer; and Riccardo Gini, Chief Financial Officer. The presentation will take about 25 minutes, after which we will open the floor to your questions. For those joining by phone, the slide deck is available on our Investor Relations website. I'll now turn the call over to Maurizio.

Thank you, Ilaria, and hi, everyone, also from my side. So let's start. I am on Slide 3. So 2025 has been, I would say, a very positive year for the group. After a market slowdown in '24, the European heating market saw a recovery with German returning to value growth, thanks to an increasing demand of renewable technologies. The rising demand for heat pumps more than offset the weakness of the European gas market, where the replacement rate remained at the bottom of the past 15 years. In this context, we benefit from our strong strategic position in Germany. And overall, we outperformed the market, thanks to our ability to serve demand with a broad and competitive range of technologies, supported by consistent and disciplined execution. This was also true for our water heating business, which continued to deliver solid results across geographies despite negative currency effect in several countries like U.S., Mexico and India to mention the most relevant. Overall, we achieved a plus 3% organic growth full year with 4 consecutive quarters of consistent growth and a healthy adjusted EBIT margin at 7.1%, fully in line with the guidance we provided a year ago. Cash generation remained robust, supported by the typical seasonality of our business and by continued discipline in working capital. Cash generation was lower compared with those of previous year, which benefited from an exceptional net working capital reduction. The fourth quarter closed the year with sustained growth, double-digit profitability and cash flow concentrated as usual in the final month. Let's move on to Slide 4, where we summarize the pillars of our equity story with a focus on 2025 achievements. We combined solid execution with meaningful strategic progress across all areas. First, we strengthened our role as a champion of thermal comfort throughout all stages of the energy transition from gas boiler to heat pump, hybrids and other heating system. Last year's growth in renewables helped offset the European boiler environment, which reached a 15-year low. We also achieved top quartile ESG ratings in improvement, which confirms the quality and consistency of our sustainability road map. Second, our balanced portfolio proved once again a real differentiator. Thanks to our broad technology offering from traditional solutions to advanced heat pumps, biofuel solution and combustion technologies, we can adapt quickly to shifting market conditions. At the same time, the contribution to our growth from water heating remained important, while service and parts continued to grow significantly. Third, we continue to expand and modernize our global industrial footprint. Over the year, we invested to strengthen our competitiveness and reinforce our proximity to key markets. Last December, we inaugurated a new plant in Serbia, dedicated to the production of cylinders and heat pump components. Last September, our new industrial site in Cairo became fully operational, supplying water heaters to the African and Middle East markets from a country with a strong manufacturing base and a cost advantage. We also opened our first factory for electronic boards in Arcevia in Italy's market region, strategically located near our existing production sites in the region. Finally, last October, we signed an agreement to acquire a new water heating plant in India, further supporting the growth potential of our local premium brand, Racold. Fourth, we continue to push ambition to act as a consolidator in the climate comfort sector. As you know, last December, we signed the agreement to acquire Riello. This move will strengthen our leadership in climate comfort in Italy and expand our global capabilities in combustion technologies. In North America, last June, we signed a joint venture with Lennox, a strong leader in innovative HVAC solutions. This partnership will allow us to supply our portfolio of residential water heaters through Lennox distribution network, which counts more than 300 locations across the U.S. and Canada. In 2025, we also completed two bolt-on acquisitions within our components division. To conclude, 2025 marked a return to growth at the upper end of our guidance. We delivered 4 consecutive quarters of year-on-year expansion, improved margins and generated cash despite significant CapEx investment to support future growth. Fit-2-Win efficiency progressed as planned and our leverage improved, confirming the strength of our balance sheet. In the next slide, we want to recap the main strategic initiative announced in 2025, the partnership with Lennox and the agreement for the acquisition of Riello. The Lennox partnership is progressing as planned. It supports our expansion in North America through a long-term commercial collaboration on high-efficiency water heating solutions. The products will be manufactured in our plant in Mexico, improving the facilities utilization. Consider that 2026 will mainly be devoted to learning, growth and development, the contribution will gradually increase and will be tangible from 2027 onwards. For Riello, we expect that this acquisition will strengthen our position in climate comfort in Italy, adding to our portfolio 2 new well-known brands, Riello and Beretta. And thanks to the high complementaries across products, geographies and commercial channel. It will also allow us to reinforce our global presence in combustion technology and increase our exposure to commercial and industrial application to North America. The closing remain expected by the end of the first half of 2026, in line with what we previously communicated. These steps advance our strategic agenda and support the group's long-term value creation. Moving to Slide 6, a brief reminder of our business profile before we move to the numbers. We operate in thermal comfort with a balanced exposure to water heating and climate comfort. Water heating on the right is a resilient business where we are among the leaders in Europe and outside Europe. Outside Europe, this is our core business with very good prospects, thanks to demographic growth and low water heating penetration in emerging markets. Climate comfort on the left includes heating, services and parts, ventilation and air handling with a diversified technology portfolio from gas boiler to the most advanced heat pumps and hybrid systems. Service and parts continued to grow in 2025, driven by customers opting for maintenance rather than replacement in Europe. Finally, the Components and Burners or Combustion Technologies divisions complete our business lines, counting in 2025, respectively, for 4% and 3% of total group turnover. As I usually remind you, in Europe, which represents about 70% of revenue, our presence in heating and water heating is more balanced. Moving to Slide 7. As you know, Germany is our largest market, accounting for around 20% of group revenues in 2025. Between 2013 and 2022, the heating market has grown in volume around 4%, and it remains primarily a replacement market with value growth driven by a shift toward high-efficiency and renewable solution. In 2023, the volumes boomed by 34%, boosted by heat pump incentives introduced in 2022 and by fears of a potential gas boiler ban. This was followed by a sharp correction in '24 with volume down 46% due to destocking and regulatory uncertainty. In 2025, we saw the market reaching a 15-year low in volume, declining by a further 12% year-on-year in volume. Yet within this backdrop, heat pumps recovered strongly, up 55% year-on-year, supported by a solid incentive scheme with application above 20,000 per month in 2025 compared with 12,500 in 2024. Gas boiler, as I said, fell by more than 30% in volume, dropping below an already weak 2024 due to unclear legislation. So the total German market grew in value during 2025, thanks to heat pump. 2026 started with approval incentives in the month of January of about 21,000 which is 50% higher than January 2025. This confirms the positive underlying trend for heat pumps supported by solid incentive scheme. Last week's new news on the long-awaited revision of the GEG signs a shift in the regulatory framework. The proposals removes some constraints for boiler replacement market and embraces a more multi-technology pathway to decarbonization. Subsidies for heat pumps are confirmed to remain in place until 2029, ensuring continuity of support across both new building and replacement markets. The legislative package is expected to be further detailed and operational by mid-2026. We will continue to monitor this evolution, including possible positive impact on market demand, mainly in gas boiler. Now I will hand over to you, Riccardo, and he will walk you through our Q4 and full year financial performance.

Thank you, Maurizio. Let's begin with Slide #9, which illustrates the year-on-year evolution of net revenues. To ensure proper comparability of the data in line with prior quarters, the 2024 revenues shown on this slide exclude the Russia business, allowing for a like-for-like comparison with 2025. The bridge to 2025 then reflects changes in perimeter, including the reconsolidation of the Russian business at the end of March and the contribution from the acquisitions of DDR and ZRE for the components business. In Q4, net revenues reached EUR 747 million, up 2.8%, of which 2.1% organic. FX impact was negative by 1.8%, while the perimeter variation accounted for an increase in net revenues of 2.6%. This result was driven by robust heat pump momentum, particularly in Germany, supported by our solid commercial and operational performance which more than offset the continued weakness in gas boiler demand. Water heating delivered positive organic growth driven by a strong contribution from the Americas and selected key markets in Asia Pacific, partly offset by adverse effects from the USD and other Asia Pacific currencies. Service & Parts division delivered another quarter of sustained growth in line with the performance achieved over the first 9 months of the year, confirming the continuity and resilience of the underlying growth trend. For the full year, revenues reached EUR 2.7 billion, up 3% organically, while the deconsolidation of the Russian business since the end of March and the 2 acquisitions in the component divisions contributed for a further 2.3% of inorganic growth. Foreign exchange effect was negative by 1.3% in the full year. Let's now turn to Slide #10 to see the geographic breakdown of our net revenues. Let me first clarify that in this slide, we are looking at the reported figures, which, by definition, include the contribution from perimeter changes and acquisitions. The most notable adjustment remains in our largest region, Europe, which in 2025 accounted for 72%, 1 point higher than in 2024. In fact, here, we are comparing different perimeters across the 2 years. Q4 '24 did not include Russian business nor the acquisitions of ZRE, which in Q4 '25 contributed approximately EUR 70 million in total. Similarly, on a full year basis, perimeter effects are driven by Russia and recent acquisitions of DDR and ZRE. In 2024, Russian business contributed only 4 months of revenues following [Audio Gap].

And R&D to fuel long-term growth across our core businesses. With regard to cash generation, it will remain concentrated in the fourth quarter, consistent with our historical seasonality with CapEx between 5% and 5.5% of revenues, reflecting our commitment to supporting growth through capacity expansion, innovation and digital initiatives. The guidance has been prepared based on available information and does not incorporate potential disruption arising from recent geopolitical developments involving the Middle East nor any related second order effects on demand across our key markets. On the capital allocation side, the Riello acquisition is progressing as planned with closing expected by the end of first half of 2026. We will also continue to assess strategic M&A and bolt-on opportunities in line with our disciplined approach.

Thank you, Maurizio. We have now completed our presentation, and we are available for your questions. [Operator Instructions]. Operator, please open the line. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions]. First question is from Christian Hinderaker, Goldman Sachs.

I want to start on the 2026 organic growth guidance. How do we think about your price volume expectations? And maybe also any thoughts here on the product mix? And then as we think more midterm, usually, you have a midterm guidance section on the presentation that doesn't seem to be there. I just wonder if that's a change of approach given obviously the '26 guide and also recent years have been below that level.

Thank you, Christian. So let me answer first price and volume. Obviously, for 2026, we expect a continued volume evolution of our business, as I said before, in line with the market evolution, but we are also planning for a pricing and mix recovery versus 2025. On product mix, I think, I mean, we are very well placed, and we just need the market to grow. I mean, obviously, we always said many times that in terms of margins, the percentage is the same. In terms of absolute, obviously, if we sell heating heat pump, the absolute value will be higher than a gas boiler or a water heater. So these are our expectation for 2026. On the long-term guidance, I mean, we speak with you very often. I mean this is not changing our midterm ambition. I mean, we continue to be there. I think in line with the best practices of the market, we would like to stay focused on the guidance of the year while continuing to think about what to do long term in other forums. And I think we will give a strategic update by the end of this year on how we see the future of our company.

Maybe secondly, can we talk about the boiler market in Germany and actually perhaps more broadly? Obviously, last year, we've seen heat pumps now outsell boilers. Where are we at on inventories of boilers in Germany in your view? And also any comments on broader Europe as well would be helpful.

Yes. I think the level of the inventories are clean and clear everywhere. So we don't have issues on boilers. We continue to be bullish and positive on boilers. I think we spoke about the legislation in Germany. But while, yes, there is a shift towards heating heat pump in the mid- to long term, this will not happen from night to the day after. It will be a long transition. It will be a different transition in the different countries. There are countries which are already heating heat pump markets or there like the Nordics where, for example, we don't play. And there are some other countries like Italy where the relevance of boilers will continue to be there. So I continue to repeat for us having the opportunity to have a very complete range from gas boiler to hybrid to heating heat pump, it supplies. So I repeat no issues in terms of stock on boilers, positive on the long-lasting relevance of gas boiler in the heating market in Europe for the next decade.

Next question is from Vivek Midha, Citi.

I have 2 questions. I'll go one at a time. First one is another one around the German market. You highlighted that the subsidies for heat pumps have been confirmed to 2029. I guess taking a step back, do you have any concern that there could be some effect from the regulatory uncertainty until that's confirmed on the pace of growth of the heat pump market?

Thank you, Vivek. I mean, obviously, the fact that they are confirming the subsidies until [ 2021 ], I think it's a good signal to the stability of heating heat pump evolution, both in new building that is mandatory, but also in replacement. So we see this as a very positive signal for heating heat pump. On the other side, as I said, the fact that it seems that the law will remove some of the constraints or the issues that consumers were having in installing a gas boiler, it's another opportunity. Now this will have to pass all the steps in terms of legislation in Germany. We are following the market, and we are checking if there is any difference. But overall, I think this will be a positive law for the total volume of Germany. And since we are leaders and providers of both gas boiler and heating heat pump, we are happy and well positioned, as I said before.

My second question is following up on your comment about varied trends by country. I'm curious in terms of the organic growth guidance you've given us, are there any countries which you'd highlight as where the trends are likely to be slower than the average?

Yes. Maybe Vivek, when I said that the countries will move in a different way, I was referring to the shift from fossil to renewables. I was not talking about the mix of the country and the development of the different countries across Europe. Obviously, as you know, because you see the public data as we are doing, the different countries are positioned also differently. I think in U.K., we saw, again, a positive development of heating heat pump. In Germany, we just commented, so I wouldn't repeat. In Netherlands, the situation is positive as well. And I think there, we are well positioned with the new product that we announced to the market, which is a very hybrid and strong machine that people can place in smaller parts and that is working like a heat pump supported by gas boiler. In France, while there are obviously signals of a positive evolution, the political situation is not as firm in others.

Next question is from Alessandro Tortora, Mediobanca.

I have, let's say, 2 questions. So the first one is if we can, let's say, elaborate a little bit more on the assumption behind, let's say, the organic, let's say, sales guidance in the sense if you can confirm to us that you're basically excluding, let's say, any additional perimeter, if I understood well, even the, let's say, remaining contribution from the Russia reconsolidation on 2026, okay? Let's say, the question relies on the fact that Bloomberg consensus, was set on a number which is much higher than your organic sales guidance also including probably some, let's say, some contributors, including already real, okay? So just to have a clear picture of a comparison on your sales -- organic sales guidance. Related to this, if you can also, let's say, clarify if, let's say, this positive or potential regulatory development in Germany is something that is part of this guidance or if understood well, you could reconsider let's say, over the year if there are some positive implication for your numbers? So this is the first question. I don't know if you want to go one by one or I go with the second one.

Yes. Maybe I start and then I will ask Riccardo to add. Thank you, Alessandro, to give you all the technicalities. So when we say organic growth, it is obviously excluding the impact from ForEx. And as I said before, on a like-for-like perimeter, we -- what does it mean that we include the month of Russia that we didn't have in '25 and the acquisition that we did in '25. But Riccardo can explain a bit better. I want to make sure that it's clear, we don't have Riello in this guidance, first of all, because we didn't close yet the deal. And as I said, we are expecting all the green lights by mid of this year. I think on the law in Germany, I mean, our guidance is 1% to 4%. As always, we want to establish credibility with all of you and deliver what we said we would do. As always, we see how the markets will develop during the year. And eventually, we'll go on the upper part of this guidance if we see the -- first, the legislation that will become active. Secondly, that the gas boiler will change this year. And I think we will update you in the next quarters. I don't know, Riccardo, if you want to do one by one what is in and out in terms of perimeter, so it's clear to everyone, again, saying that Riello is out.

I think you made it right, Maurizio. So the perimeter is exactly the same. We will take into account the contribution of the Russian consolidation, the 2 acquisitions of DDR and ZRE on the components business on the same period and number of months. So we will have a comparison apple with apple. And of course, excluding any FX dynamics. So that's the way we communicate organic growth.

The second question is clear, we discussed about Germany. Could you comment a little bit about Italy now clear with -- also with the incoming acquisition of Riello consolidation will be much more important. So if you can, let's say, give us an idea of, let's say, the outlook, okay, of the Italian market? And maybe just also, let's say, a quick update on the burner performance that will be much more relevant with the Riello.

Yes. As you said, and as I mentioned before, with the acquisition of Riello, we will strengthen, I would say, dramatically in a positive way our position in Italy in HVAC, but also globally as a combustion technology player, which is a market which is more stable, profitable. And again, there, we can offer different technologies from the one that are more, I would say, historical to the greener one. I mean, Italy, you know very well if we talk about heating that the market reached the bottom. So we expect once again that the market will go up, will go up. It could be during '26 or '27. But for sure, this market has to go up. The percentage of heating heat pump in Italy is around 10%. So I mean, it's still another opportunity as well for the market. And remember that we have water heating as well, where we are a strong leader, where we see a positive evolution, especially on heat pump water heater. We never speak about that, but our position there is strong, and we could use brands of Riello and Beretta that didn't have the opportunity to offer this kind of products. We know as well that for what we understand from what they presented us in the management presentation that the Riello percentage of heating heat pump is lower than ours. So there is an opportunity for us to give them a state-of-the-art and the most developed in terms of heating heat pump technology. And I think this will be another opportunity. For sure, to gain market share, -- but as I said, expecting a market of beating that sooner or later will rebound from a very low level, which is obviously the level of the late -- I mean, not even in 2020 was so low.

Next question is from Alessandro Cecchini, Equita.

The first one is actually on input costs, I mean, the cost base 2026 at constant volumes. So if you can elaborate a little bit more, what are the main drivers? What are you seeing? What are you assuming, I mean, for 2026 in terms of cost base, in particular, input costs, of course, at constant volumes? This is my first question.

Yes. Thanks for the question, Alessandro. So first of all, I think it's worth to remind everyone that we run our purchasing policy with a hedging coverage that give us good level of certainty when we forecast the following 12, 18 months ahead of us. So as we look into it, we feel confident that the cost assumptions on input basis have been taken into consideration. In the meantime, we are conscious that inflationary items are on the market such as on steel, copper, for instance, are quite heavy. So we have to continue monitoring what's going on, on an input basis, continue to manage our procurement strategy and continue to be able also to price into the market if conditions allow to charge whatever it comes as additional inflation from raw materials. So all in all, cost assumptions as we speak and as we read from the most recent dynamics on steel, copper, aluminum are taken into consideration of our guidance for 2026.

My second question is instead on Fit-2-Win project. If I understood correctly, in 2025, you cashed in EUR 20 million, EUR 25 million of additional savings and your target is [ EUR 50 million ], if I am not wrong, in 2027. So I would like to better understand, so I would say, the ramp-up that you expect the additional savings that you expect in 2026, if it is gradual between 2025 and 2027.

Yes. I think we gained more traction than expected in 2025. So I would say we are more on the upper part of the EUR 25 million you were talking about. We also made a conscious decision to reinvest a good part of these savings into our growth initiatives. So we spoke earlier about R&D. We spoke about go-to-market strategies and programs as well as on digitalization. So these are the 3 key initiatives where we -- I mean, as a result of the good results achieved, we decided to reallocate part of the savings -- I mean, into the actual results. So going forward, the EUR 50 million Fit-2-Win program is confirmed. So we maintain our commitment with the savings that we will achieve are going to be reinvested into these programs to continue to fuel our growth. So that's the plan we agreed upon, and we are currently executing.

Okay. And finally, if I may, just your sense on the start to the year of the company. So just to have some brief overview of what you are seeing in the market.

Yes. Maybe I answer this one. I think on the market, I mean, I would say continuity versus what we saw in Q4 until obviously, what happened last weekend. And so we were expecting a gradual recovery, as I said, during '26. Now we have to see, unfortunately, how the situation that you all know is happening will impact us during March. So that's what I would say. Before last week, I mean, we were cautiously optimistic in the markets recovering and doing fine. And now it is what it is. But I think we proved in the past to manage with resilience all the external factors, geopolitical challenges, tariffs. And I think we are well positioned and diversified as a company, both in terms of portfolio and sourcing to overcome those challenges, and I'm sure the team will continue to do this in the future.

Next question is from Davide Rimini, Intesa Sanpaolo.

I have 2 questions. The first is a clarification again, sort of on organic growth guidance that you've given for this year. If I'm not mistaken, you signaled that, that growth should be progressively improving over the course of the year. And I was just wondering since we noticed in sort of the deceleration quarter-by-quarter of the growth of 2025, whether sort of there should be any element to assume in sort of this year should be an acceleration? And again, attached to that, just a clarification, whether sort of within this organic guidance, there is anything that you might add in terms of the contribution from the Lennox JV that will start this year?

Thank you, Davide. So first of all, I think Q4, you might see optically a deceleration, but I want to remind you that in '24, the situation was different. So '24 Q4 was already better than the previous quarter. So every time we compare year-on-year on different quarters. And I think we said and we commented that this year until the recent development, we were seeing a continuation of the trend and positive development of the market. In terms of Lennox, I think that we always said that they would launch their brands in quarter 2. Everything is progressing very well. Everything is on track. But we said as well that 2026 will be a year of building, knowing the business, training the people, expanding distribution. So the majority of -- or the meaningful part will gradually increase. And I think we will speak more on 2027 about numbers and if this is a success as we think or maybe we can do better. So let's use 2026 as a buildup and then 2027 as the first real year where Lennox is competing in the new water heating market. But so far, so good, very positive. I don't know if someone went to the exhibitions in the U.S., but this has been presented publicly as well with very good and positive returns from installers, builders in both U.S. and Canada.

And my second question is, again, sort of a clarification. It is sort of a point that has been touched already before is on sort of the long-term guidance. If I'm not mistaken, you pointed out that you will come out at the end of this year sort of with a more sort of strategic update -- and I just wonder whether sort of this will be a gain on long-term organic and margin, the 10% that we had in the past. And along with that, if there will be anything said regarding the CapEx on sales that you guide that introduced for this year, but whether or not, I mean, will be sort of subject to the next strategic update.

Yes. First of all, we confirm that our aim is to grow organically at mid-single digit and to continue to progress in terms of profitability to reach the double digit. I mean this is there and will not change. On the strategic update that I mentioned, obviously, we will give you I would say, clear view on the long term also because we plan to do this by year-end, and we will have the closing of the Riello acquisition. And we will talk about how we plan to grow to aim to the mid-single-digit rate top line and to continue to improve profitability, including the fact that, as we said, I mean, we are having a strong investment this year and last year to position the company stronger for the future, but also on CapEx, there will be obviously a reduction in the midterm because I think we will finish what we planned we would have done, and then we will be in a much better position also to fuel our cash generation.

Next question is from Daniel Khajenouri, Morgan Stanley.

As a follow-up to your comments on the thermal comfort segment, would it be possible to comment on pricing trends in heat pump specifically, the market utilization and pricing risk is something you called out in your last annual report?

Yes. On heating heat pump and pricing, we always say that, I mean, we don't play in the lower and entry part of the market. We are playing in the upper part of the market with our brands of Wolf and Elco and the upper mainstream of Ariston. So as always, I think, and I wouldn't comment maybe the last quarter or the next 2, an evolution of the future will be that competitors like us and others will continue to work on the cost competitiveness of this product. But more importantly, as you know, in heating, you win if you can strengthen the relationship that you have to have with installers. And this relationship is very linked to the service and aftersales service and the quality that we are giving to all these installers. So I would say nothing strange, nothing different than what we saw during 2025, and you saw the results on '25 that we posted. So there is always competition. There are things happening, but nothing extraordinary. So this is what I would say. And as Riccardo said, since all the raw materials are increasing, you might see a better pricing mix in the future because everyone will have to absorb this kind of cost increase.

Next question is from Michele Baldelli, BNP Paribas.

I have a couple of questions. The first one relates to the cost line because my point is not only on raw materials. Do you see also inflation for what concerns the semiconductors hardware, so basically the control devices for your equipment? And the second question relates to the fourth quarter of 2025. I saw that the Asia Pacific EMEA region declined by 6% in Q4. If you could provide us some color on the reasons behind it?

Yes. Maybe I'll start with the first one and the second, I don't know if Riccardo, you want to elaborate more on what you said before. So on semiconductor, I mean, as you know, there are tension. I don't think we are seeing different problematic than in the past. What we use is different than what other companies are using. I think we are well positioned. And as you saw, we started as well to produce our electronics in Italy, which is giving us an opportunity to manage the most strategic electronics platform that we have and as well as the cost inflation. On Asia Pacific, I'm sure Riccardo will explain, but we had a huge ForEx impact in the year. So Riccardo, if you want to reiterate a bit the performance of the region.

Yes. I mean you may be right. I mean there is a huge FX impact across the majority of the currencies of the countries we operate in and also the Q4 of prior year was -- represented a solid base as a comparison. So we do not foresee any significant issues, so to speak. So I think we should look at the region more on a full year basis other than on Q4 stand-alone.

And full year was a positive number of more than 3%, correct? -- excluding ForEx, which is good.

So if there are no further questions, we will close today's session here. Thank you all for your time and participation. Bye.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining. The conference is now over. You may disconnect your telephones.