Arman Financial Services Limited (531179) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Arman Financial Services Q2 FY '21 Earnings Conference Call hosted by Emkay Global Financial Services. We have with us today, Mr. Aalok Patel, Joint MD; and Mr. Vivek Modi, Group CFO. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Jignesh Shial of Emkay Global. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Yes. Thanks, [ Janice ], and good evening, everyone. I would like to welcome the management of Arman Financial, and thank them for giving us this opportunity. I will now hand it -- over the call to Mr. Aalok Patel. Over to you, Aalok.

Yes. Thanks a lot, Jignesh, and good afternoon to everybody. Thanks a lot for joining in and taking the time to discuss our financial performance for the second quarter and the first half of FY '21. So we have issued a detailed press release and also an investor presentation for the past quarter. So hopefully, all of you have had a chance to review it. At the outset, I hope all of you and your loved ones are healthy and doing well in these very unprecedented times. As many of you might have heard, Ahmedabad is going into sort of a curfew or a lockdown for a couple of days starting tomorrow. So both Vivek and I have been a little busy with some of the continuity kind of issues. So please -- the disclaimer here is, please excuse us if we are not as prepared as usual. But anyway, so overall, we have witnessed a very broad-based pickup in the economy in the last few months. More importantly, our consolidated collection efficiency has picked up significantly from 66% in June 2020 to 87% in September and 91% in October. This continuous progress on the repayment front on a month-to-month basis is encouraging and shows both the resilience and the positive interactions of our customers -- or excuse me, positive intentions of our customers. In Microfinance, only 7% of our customers have not started repayments post April. For MSME and Two-Wheeler, that percent stood at 3.6% and 2.9%, respectively. Now I'll start by giving a brief overview of our financial performance for the second quarter and post that touch upon the collections, liquidity and disbursements in more details. At the end of the second quarter, our consolidated loan book stood at 704 crore INR, marginally lower year-over-year as a result of the COVID-related disruptions as higher repayment rates combined with lower disbursements in the first half led to an expected decline in the loan book. Our Microfinance and MSME portfolio stood at INR 523 crores and INR 119 crores, respectively, at the end of Q2, lower by 5% to 6% year-over-year. In the urban two-wheeler segment, the AUM was impacted by the decline in 2-wheeler sales in the preceding fiscal year and the sharp drop in 2-wheeler sales during the first half of the current fiscal. However, our newly launched rural two-wheeler product has demonstrated a relatively better performance, reporting a year-on-year AUM growth of 10%. The rural two-wheeler book now constitutes approximately 12% of the total Two-Wheeler portfolio. We gradually resumed disbursements across all segments for August 2020 onwards. Loan disbursements for the month of August stood at approximately INR 17 crores, and for the month of September stood at INR 34 crores. This number has increased to approximately INR 60 crores in the month of October. We expect disbursements to approach pre-COVID levels by December or January of the current fiscal year. The disbursements were mainly focused on servicing our existing customer base. As the industry began to update the credit bureau data, we have begun to service new customers as well, but with a more stringent underwriting process wherever possible. Our net total income increased by 4% year-on-year at INR 33 crores during Q2, driven primarily by lower finance cost, as our borrowings declined by 15% sequentially combined with raising of debt capital at relatively lower rates from DFIs like NABARD, SIDBI and MUDRA. Our company's continuous efforts to rationalize this operating expenses also bore fruit, as OpEx declined by 4% year-over-year to INR 12 crores in Q2, while our cost-to-income ratios improved by about 320 bps year-over-year to 37.6%. In keeping with our conservative approach, we strengthened our provisioning coverage by prudently recognizing provisions of INR 14 crores during the second quarter. Further, we also took an aggressive write-off of INR 4.6 crores in Q2 to help reduce the NPA burden of pre-COVID doubtful assets in the future. Including the additional provisions recognized during the second quarter, cumulative total provisions at the end of Q2 stood at INR 44 crores at the consolidated level, covering approximately 6.2% of our total loan book. At the stand-alone Arman level cumulative, total provisions stood at INR 17 crores at the end of September '20, covering 9.2% of the total AUM. Strengthening our provision coverage should help us deal with any impairments on account of COVID in the future. As a result of higher provisioning, our net profit stood lower at INR 1.5 crores for the second quarter. While the provisioning may remain elevated for the next 1 or 2 quarters, we hope to restore our net profit to healthy levels from the beginning of next fiscal year as the provisions decline. Our GNPA and NNPA has continued to remain low and steady at 1.1% and 0.2%, respectively. In terms of capitalization, we remain adequately capitalized with consolidated debt-to-equity ratio of 3.3x, which excludes direct assignments. Liquidity wise, we are in a comfortable position right now. At the end of the quarter, we had cash reserves of approximately INR 135 crores, including undrawn CC limits. We have repaid all of the debt obligations that were due in Q2 and also repaid the loan moratoriums that we had availed in April and May, retrospectively. Further, we have also raised a INR 50 crores at very attractive rate since July '20 to bolster our liquidity position. Speaking of more granular breakdowns on collections. In the Microfinance segment, particularly, the improvements in the collections has been very encouraging, as repayment rates have jumped to 75% in August to 84% in September and 89% in October. All operational states, besides Maharashtra, are reporting almost 90%-plus repayment rates. At the stand-alone level, the collection efficiency continued to be healthy and well north of 90% in September and October. In the MSME segment, the repayment rates improved marginally from 92% in August to 93% in September and 94% in October. While in the Two-Wheeler segment, the repayment rate stood at 96% in September and 97% in October. As we move forward, our foremost priority will be improving our collection efficiency and restoring it to pre-COVID levels at the earliest, especially in the MFI segment. To complement our high-touch physical collections model, we have implemented a new platform to handle collections digitally via an integrated software solution using unique QR codes -- client level unique QR codes to receive payments through UPI platforms. We are currently in the pilot stage of its implementation. With the recovery in the economy, pickup in the repayment rates and the end of the moratorium period, we now feel comfortable to gradually and carefully scale up disbursements. Hence, going forward, we expect the pace of disbursement to normalize from Q3 onwards. Finally, to conclude, I would like to express my gratitude to all of our stakeholders for their continued support during these difficult times. A special note of appreciation for the company's field staff, whose perseverance and untiring efforts are the sole reason why we have been able to report such a significant improvement in the repayment rates for September and October. Overall, we remain confident that we'll be able to successfully navigate our way through this storm and emerge stronger. On behalf of the company, I wish all the stakeholders a very happy Diwali and a great New Year ahead. I would now like to request the operator to open the floor for questions and answers. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Amit Mantri from 2Point2 Capital.

Hi Aalok, Happy Diwali to you and the team as well.

Thank you, Amit. Happy Diwali.

So on the collection efficiency numbers, so there's clearly been a good month-on-month improvement and your Arman is doing as well or better than many of its peers. On the provision fronts, you've already taken cumulative almost 6-plus percent plus of the loan book, which is significantly higher than any of your peers, basically. So does this mean that you are far more pessimistic in terms of the eventual credit cost that will occur in your Microfinance or all the MSME and Two-Wheeler loan book? Or is it just abundant caution?

Yes. Amit, another word for pessimistic is conservative. So taking provisions is where the -- as much as the profitability allows, I don't know what the actual write-offs related to this COVID scenario is going to be. The assumption here is, it's prudent to take provisions at least in the first 2 to 3 quarters. And then in March, if things are a little better than they actually appeared to be, then we can always reverse whatever is not required. Now 6.2%, I just want to let you know, that is the cumulative provisionings. So it's not all of those provisionings were COVID-related write-offs. Obviously, we'll have some AUM. There will be certain standard asset provisioning and stuff that will need to be kept on the book itself. But yes, overall, we have not -- I rather call ourselves conservative than call ourselves pessimistic.

Sure. And can you give more color on how the state-wise performance is there? So from most of the other companies you've heard that Maharashtra has been a weak state in terms of collection. So how is -- how are you seeing collections improvement in Maharashtra over the last few months? And which are the states which have been doing well for you?

Well, I think it was a huge jump in the month of October. So in September, it was about -- well, starting all the way back from August, I think it was about 62%, then it went up to about 68% in September. And finally, in October, we ended up somewhere around 77% in Maharashtra. In fact, a lot of the increase came as in -- from September to October on a cumulative Microfinance, repayment rate came from Maharashtra taking a significant lead. As far as other states are -- Gujarat is clearly the leader in terms of repayment rates at about 95%. MP is about 89%, little -- almost 90%-ish, Madhya Pradesh. Maharashtra, as I said, in October, was 77%. Rajasthan is about 95%, so about the same as Gujarat. UP has reached 90%. Uttarakhand, which is a small portfolio, is about 95.5%. So overall, we have reached about 89% in October for Microfinance. And for our Two-Wheeler and MSME, primarily, the portfolio is in Gujarat with a little bit of portfolio in Maharashtra. So the MSME portfolio of Maharashtra is doing a little bit better at about 78%. And Gujarat repayment rate is, I think, about 96% or 96%, 97%, somewhere around that. Gujarat -- in the Two-Wheeler, all of our portfolio is in Gujarat. So that would be about 96%, 97%.

Sure. And even in the month of November, are you still seeing this continuous improvement in states like Maharashtra, where earlier there were challenging...

We were. So we were. There was -- so getting into Diwali, we were about -- on a cumulative basis, about 2.5% to 3% ahead at the same period in the previous month. But we lost about 5 days of Diwali. So since yesterday, we are about the same place where we were last month. But overall, we were expecting to see significant improvements in the last 10 days of the month with the new lock -- well, I think the lockdown is only applicable to Ahmedabad. So that is not going to have any significant effect on our overall operations pan India. And honestly speaking, our systems have evolved in such a way that even the operations can continue running perpetually without they actually being open because everything is online. So fingers crossed, I think there should be some improvement. Let's hope to cross the 90% barrier this month [Technical Difficulty] sorry, for Microfinance.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Parth Sanghvi from Emkay Global.

Just a couple of questions. So one is with the interest rate softening. Has it been passed on to us? Or like what has been the impact for us? And how do you see the demand environment remain going forward?

So Vivek can probably answer this.

In terms of the interest rate softening, especially for Microfinance, the rates applicable are as per the RBI directive for Microfinance. So that anyway has been, for the fresh disbursement that we're doing are, at the revised rates, lower rates as per the RBI mandated maximum permissible rates.

I think he's asking -- are you asking about the disbursement side or from the -- from what we borrow from the bank side?

The disbursement side.

Disbursement side. Yes. Yes.

The disbursement side, yes, yes. So yes, [Technical Difficulty] have gone down as per the RBI -- whatever new disbursement we have done in this quarter, they've gone down by about, I think, about 100 basis points. So whatever gains that we got in terms of lower interest that customer and unfortunately, for the company, we have to pass that on to the customer. But to add to that, [Technical Difficulty] take away, that is applicable for the new disbursements [ Whatever ] book that we have created in the past with the higher interest rate, that interest rate [Technical Difficulty] the interest rates are declining for us. That will be [Technical Difficulty] that would mean that we would, in the short term, get a better [ interest rate because -- and ] rates where the interest rates are increasing. It really averages out.

Across all our products [Technical Difficulty]. So obviously, from a fair value point of view, interest rates in the environment goes down, then you are better off for some time, until the time you start redeploying the same fund, with the lower interest rates.

Right. And then what's your outlook on the demand scenario?

Demand is, of course, there. I think we are fortunate enough to be in a business where the demand [ is always ] evergreen, especially at a [ time like ] this. But I think as I mentioned in the last con-call that even during demonetization, we had stopped disbursement for 3, 4 months. [Technical Difficulty] especially since the month of August and a little bit of September, most of the disbursement has been to our old customers, since that we [Technical Difficulty] on the credit bureau data, which was all stale. I mean [Technical Difficulty] since March, and if you pulled up their credit bureau data, it would be a 0 default kind of a customer. Now that the credit data is getting updated by most of the financial institutions and the banks and everybody, we [Technical Difficulty] new customers also. But that we were a little bit in the blind, so mostly we [Technical Difficulty] our old customers with a proven track record.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Amit Mantri from 2Point2 Capital.

So just a couple of numbers rated. The interest income has increased on a quarter-on-quarter basis despite a decline in the loan book. So why is that?

On a quarter over -- so in the same quarter the previous year, you are saying?

No, no, no. Quarter-on-quarter, from previous Q1 versus Q2. So the interest income is higher in this quarter than in the last quarter despite loan book having declined maybe around 13%, 14%.

Amit, there could be marginal impact. A couple of things that have -- the interest income also includes interest on the fixed deposits and cash for [Technical Difficulty]. The component of the fixed deposits, unencumbered fixed deposits have considerably increased in the last quarter or so. And additionally, if you look at it, at the beginning of quarter 2, the portfolio was pretty much high. It hadn't declined too much as of July 1st, so to say.

Yes. I think the average portfolio would not -- would be a different story. It's just that the repayment rates increased drastically during the month of -- especially August and -- I'm sorry, in September and August. So overall, if you look at the average AUMs, there will be a little bit of a difference.

Sure. Understood that now. And -- so is interest income being recognized on the entire book? Or are you assuming that some part of the book will be NPA, so interest income should only be recognized, maybe on a slightly lesser book? Or will that lead to interest reversals whenever NPAs show up in the next few quarters?

No. And partially, what you said at the last is the right thing because under the Ind AS, anyways, even on the NPA, you need to book the interest. Unfortunately, until 90 days, you are forced to recognize the interest, which I completely disagree with, by the way, because in a normal scenario where -- it's fine because after 90 days, then your NPA levels is at 1%, 2% or something. But on the moratorium book, also, you had to -- so we have a large portion, which is interest due, but not received -- interest accrued, but not received, interest accrued, but not received it. So we are, of course, building the provisions and stuff for that as well. However, the way we structured the moratorium is that when the customer pays off, when I guess moratorium, we can call it a type of restructure only. So when the customer pays it off, that interest accrued, but not received gets hit first. So I don't think that there will be a very large reversal as a result of that. But if you look at like, let's say, 6% or 7% of our customers who have not paid since the moratorium started, of course, those ones will be the reversal ones.

Amit, so we can include the provisions on these assets as well.

Yes, correct.

Yes. So if you were to only consider those who are paying fully or even partially, then the interest income would be lower by around 6%, 7%, of which is the number who is not paying.

Which is the -- well, I think what is the loan amort is that would be around a little bit on a higher side, I think, but -- I mean, I don't have the exact numbers with me. So see for loan amortization schedule, the principal and interest change every month-on-month, right? So maybe if I can give you that answer, but let me put some thought into it and get back to you on that.

Sure. No, got it. And there's a fair bit of excess liquidity on the balance sheet and although you're carrying -- the debt has declined and there is a fair bit of cash that is sitting on the balance sheet now. So the plan also continues to carry the kind of excess liquidity even going forward?

Not so much. I think about INR 100 crores or so is what has been working for us. So we'll try to keep it around that between INR 80 crores and INR 100 crores. And as the disbursements pick up, I think that excess liquidity should continue to go down also. So we have enough things in the pipeline right now. So we are trying to manage it and plan it in a way based on what we project our disbursements to be. So in a couple of days, we are closing another NCB transaction for [ a Sunday ].

Okay. Okay. And now at least because -- now because the disbursements have and you did INR 60 crores in October, so now the loan book is unlikely to decline further going forward, right?

Yes. yes, yes. So we have reached that stability now where the repayments, at least last month, we reached it where the repayments were about the same as what we disbursed. So starting from this month or maybe next month, the portfolio should start going up again.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Chandra Shekhar, individual investor. As there is no response from the current participant, we take the next question from the line of Srinath from Bellwether.

I logged in about 5 minutes late. So if my question is repetitive, I'm sorry. I just wanted to understand, given that the MSME business has kind of done very well in the last 3 months, you had above 90% collection. Are we looking to slowly kind of scale up disbursements there because the disbursements number hadn't -- even if you were to assume that only the last months' disbursements, the numbers are a bit on the lower side. So just wanted to understand. And also, given that it's an assessed income loan, the slightly stale bureau data in, at least, MSME shouldn't be that much of a hurdle, right? So just wanted your...

Well, yes. I mean -- so we are starting to push for the disbursements in that side -- in the MSME side also. Of course, the incomplete credit bureau data, which we relied a lot on was incomplete. And there was a lot of different kinds of businesses that we had sort of blacklisted from MSME until the COVID situation improved. And those were essentially occupations, which we thought would be highly disrupted due to the COVID issues, roadside dhaba type or eateries and those kinds of areas or hospitality kind of small establishments. So I think going forward, that should pick up. As far as the repayment of MSME is concerned, see, if you compare apples-to-apples, of course, MSME is slightly better than micro. But if you look at it, compare it to a state to state, for example, Gujarat in Microfinance versus the Gujarat to MSME, that large difference is actually becomes a small difference between the 2 divisions. So I guess, we got a little bit lucky from the geographical standpoint. I know I'm just kind of trying to be fully transparent here. But that said, yes, I think starting from Q4, we are already trying to figure out our next expansion in terms of branches and areas for both MSME and Microfinance. So my -- honestly, my biggest goal is that to put COVID behind us by the time April 1, 2021, rolls around. So I know that's a long way away. But hopefully, we reach a spot where whatever has to be provided is on the books by March, and essentially, we get a fresh start from April 1, and we continue our growth story.

Fair, fair. I think last cycle, Gujarat was the pain area. So it's best to be diversified because it's so difficult to take these calls.

And maybe this is not the right forum, but I always joke around with people, including Vivek here, that last time we got kind of shot in the foot at Gujarat, and as a result of that, we diversified across all of these different states. If I would have just been in Gujarat, I would have been in a better spot, but of course, this is not the lottery system. You cannot just make decisions based on luck. So I don't regret making those decisions, but it's just one of those ironies of life.

Got it. Got it. And this is a bit of a delicate one. So just wanted to understand what's happening in Maharashtra, as in, in sense of, is this a political kind of an issue? Or is this difficulty to reach the customer? Again, as much as possible, if you could share qualitative flavor of what is happening in that market, that would be very nice.

See, I think different areas have different problems, but largely, on average, earlier on, it was about reaching the customer and about political issues. A lot of those issues have gone away. And so I would say Maharashtra, whatever gains that we made in June, July and August, in, let's say, Gujarat, we had a late start in Maharashtra. So those gains -- and optimistically, those gains should be forthcoming in Maharashtra as well, but a little later. It's just a matter of convincing the customers. But I think primarily issue was that because earlier on, there were a lot of political issues. There still are, but a lot lower than what they were at least 2, 3 months ago. And of course, access now is not much of an issue, which was a huge issue in those earlier days.

The next question is from the line of Nagraj Chandrasekar from Laburnum Capital.

Happy Diwali, Aalokji.

Thank you.

Just on the competitive intensity in the last 2, 3 months, obviously in your area, my guess is that the more rural public company would work with NBFC, MFIs and MSMEs. Are you seeing any smaller NBFC, MFIs struggle for liquidity and also not disburse [Technical Difficulty] book? Or are you seeing some players step up disbursements? I just wanted to get a sense of the supplier credit to the investing sort of a thing.

I think a lot of -- I think most of them have cut back on their disbursements, maybe not as much as us, but enough so where the repayments were higher than what they were disbursing. So I don't think that liquidity is too big of an issue. See, on the field level, when you talk about Microfinance side, basically, what you need to understand is the same guy who's dispersing is the same guy who is collecting. So as a management sitting at the HO, we kind of have to try to find a balance that what is the priority. Do we want them to focus on collections 30 days out of the month? Or do we want them to focus on collections 70% of the time or 80% and focus 20% of the time on disbursements? So I don't think that there is one clear right or wrong answer or good or bad answer. I think you have to tackle each area differently, each branch differently. Obviously, states and branches who have reached 90%, 95% repayment rates, it would be foolish to focus 100% of your time for an incremental 1% kind of a repayment rate increase. So in those areas -- so as the repayments increase, I think disbursement is naturally going to increase. As far as competition is concerned, I think most people, barring a few exceptions, they will always be the outliers. A lot of people cut down a lot of the disbursements compared to even pre-February levels or even the same period Q2 of last year itself, I think the disbursements were just probably 40%, 50% in the areas that we are working in. So overall, it's pretty large decline from the disbursement side, but everybody is going to be picking up again. So my informal talks with a lot of the upper level, C-level people at the different companies. I think everybody, during Diwali and post Diwali, is planning to ramp up disbursements. So let's see what happens.

Understood. And in terms of practice on the ground, I think a couple more qualitative points, are you seeing top-up loans happening to customers, who haven't been able to pay credit even amongst our customers who might not be able to [indiscernible] top-up loans from others? And on average, how many lenders do a typical borrower from us also borrow from them apart from us?

Yes. Honestly, I cannot comment on the number or who is actually doing it. However, I mean it's no big secret. I think people are doing it. There are top-off loans out there. There are net-off loans out there. One way -- another way to increase your repayment rate is just start disbursing a lot of money. Because on a static pool, your repayment might be down, but whatever new portfolio you are creating, obviously that might be -- will be at a higher repayment -- well assuming that we'll be at a much higher repayment rate, your weighted average will go up. So -- but there are companies that are making top-off loans. There are a few companies that always used to make top-up loans, and they've continued to do so. There are certain MFIs, who are netting off their outstanding and issuing a whole new loan. So not very different from a top-off, but a different kind of mechanism. I'm sorry, I don't think I have the right answer in terms of how many companies are doing it and how rampant it is. But for sure, I can assure you, it is happening at some -- a few companies and some more than others.

Understood, sir. And one last question would be that 6%, 7%, 7%, you mentioned for the number of customers, who haven't made payments since April, this seems ballpark in line with what a lot of other NBFCs, MFIs, SMEs are reporting. I just wanted to understand our concentration by state, region and by, say by, main occupation as well, as is it mostly people who have recently taken a loan and have a larger amount of EMIs [indiscernible]. Any such color would be useful.

I mean we have all of this data. To be honest with you, I don't have all of it in front of me. Maybe we can take it up separately about what occupation you are seeing it from and stuff like that. But just to provide, without getting into percentages, I can tell you that about half of those figures are in Maharashtra. So the nonstarters or whatever you want to all these customers. Also in the sort of the defaulting customers, most of these customers are involved in non-agriculture kind of activities. So most of our customers that are involved in providing life kind of services versus -- or I'm sorry, livelihood kind of services versus lifestyle kind of services. So obviously, those guys are doing a lot better compared to, let's say, the hospitality people and the street vendor type of people. Obviously, they got disrupted quite a bit. They are back on their feet, but clearly not in a way that will allow them to start making repayments, a lot of these guys. Another curious thing is that many customers who are showing an intent to repay, it's not like the progress is steady. What I'm trying to say is that imagine a customer who pays in, let's say, August and September, well, although there is a small chance, there is still a chance he'll miss October payment and then pay in November. So the assumption that most of us made earlier is that once you get them started paying, they will continue paying. But that is, in fact, not the case in a small segment of customers, who are paying 1 installment, missing 1, paying another, missing another. It's kind of random in that sense.

Understood. And we would lengthening tenors for a number of our customers who took the moratorium and [indiscernible]. So on average, how much could you lengthen the tenor with those customers? Would it be around 2, 3 months on average?

I'm sorry, I couldn't understand your question. Maybe you could take me off speaker phone?

No. I'm actually not on speakerphone. I'm asking the customers who would have their loan tenors restructured, on average how much longer would the tenor be?

Oh, that's interesting. So on average? I guess we can do a weighted average...

Weighted average will turn out to be about -- I am not sure, it should be...

2, 2.5 months.

1.5 to 2.5 kind of months on an average EBITDA.

Yes. So I think almost every customer was given a moratorium for April and May.

April and May.

And about repayment rate started with being about...

About 50% to 60%.

50% and 75%, higher than that, maybe about 3 months.

3 months.

It sounds like a good average, but I'm sure you can backward calculate it with our repayment rates.

The next question is from the line of Shreepal Doshi from Equirus Securities.

Sir, my question is with respect to our disbursements of new loans. What -- so I know that even now the credit bureau data is also -- is getting updated. But what number of installments are we seeing that the customers would have paid? And -- so what is the strategy on evaluating the credit bureau data also before disbursement?

No. I mean certainly we would have -- want them to have restarted their payments. So the criteria that we came up last month was, they should have made at least 3 continuous payments for us to consider it. That was for MSME. And for the microfinance, we came up with the criteria of 2 continuous payments, with absolutely no kind of defaults in the previous months. But as I said, the credit bureau data was quite stale at that time. And there was certain High Court order or Supreme Court orders that was restricting -- even post moratorium some of the financial institutions were not sharing the data adequately. So a lot of the customers, we were relying on our own kind of experience. But going forward, that will become important, that criteria, yes.

So the current disbursement that we're doing -- I understand, we are doing it only to our own customers. So we will sort of have an understanding whether the customer has paid the last 3 EMIs or not for the MFI segment, and then accordingly, we'll be taking a call, right? Or we were taking a call?

We were taking a call based on our own experience with the customer. And by our own experience means, we gave them a 3 parts if they didn't pay for April and May and in some cases, June as well. July, August, if they continued their payments and their loans were finished, then we were happy to give that number.

Right, right, right. Okay. Sir -- and what percent of -- I understand that the previous question was also with regards to this. So what percent of our customers who have a 4-month of loan tenure extension?

What percent would have 4 months? About at least 25% would have 4 months or above.

Essentially, customers who've not paid April, May and June and then July. And so even if they have not paid 3 months, then also it will be more than 3 months because there would be some bit of interest accrual that would get added.

Yes, yes, yes.

Anybody -- so that way, and Aalok gave an estimate around 20% is higher -- it will be around 20% because eventually 20% -- because 4 months and above would be about 20%. So the repayment rate, calculating it that the repayment rate was about 75%, that means 25% didn't pay. And so just by extrapolating it was that. Guys, this data, now this is data hard to access it all on a moment's notice. So any -- like you need this, e-mail our investor relations people, and if you can get it to you, we'll get it out there.

Sure. Sure. One last question was, I mean, how are you seeing the securitization and off-balance sheet portfolio opportunities coming up since the -- I mean, in the last 1, 1.5 months?

I don't know, Vivek your -- that's been a lot of...