ASML Holding N.V. (ASML) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good day, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the ASML 2026 Third Quarter Financial Results Conference Call on October 14, 2026, [Operator Instructions] Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference call over to Mr. Jim Kavanagh. Please go ahead.

Thank you, operator. Welcome, everyone. This is Jim Kavanagh, Head of Investor Relations at ASML. Joining me today on the call are ASML's CEO, Christophe Fouquet; and our CFO, Roger Dassen. The subject of today's call is ASML's 2026 Third quarter sales. The length of the call will be 60 minutes and questions will be taken in the order that they are received. This call is also being broadcast live over the Internet at www.asml.com. A transcript of management's opening remarks and a replay of the call will be available on our website shortly following the conclusion of this call. Before we begin, I would like to caution listeners that comments made by management during this conference call will include forward-looking statements within the meaning of the federal securities laws. These forward-looking statements involve material risks and uncertainties. For a discussion of risk factors, I encourage you to review the safe harbor statement obtained -- contained in today's press release and presentation found on our website at www.asml.com and in ASML's annual report on Form 20-F and other documents as filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission. With that, I would like to turn the call over to Christophe Fouquet for a brief introduction.

Thank you, Jim. Welcome, everyone, and thank you for joining us for our third quarter 2026 results conference call. Before we begin the Q&A session, Roger and I would like to provide an overview and some commentary on the third quarter 2026 results as well as provide some additional comments on the current business environment and on our future business outlook. Roger?

Thank you, Christophe, and welcome, everyone. I will first review the third quarter 2026 financial accomplishments and then provide guidance on the fourth quarter and the full year of 2026. Let me start with our third quarter accomplishments. Total net sales in the third quarter of 2026 were a record at EUR 11.7 billion towards the high end of our guidance and reflecting strong execution of our capacity ramp. Net system sales were EUR 8.4 billion, which includes EUR 4.1 billion from EUV system sales including the sale of 1 High-NA EUV system and EUR 4.3 billion from non-EUV system sales. Net system sales were split between Logic at 54% and Memory at 46%. Installed Base Management sales for the quarter were EUR 3.3 billion, exceeding our guidance by almost EUR 0.4 billion primarily due to the strong demand for our productivity upgrade products in both EUV and DPV. Gross margin for the quarter was above guidance at 57.5% primarily due to the contribution of very high-margin components within our installed base management business. Our operating expenses were as guided with R&D expenses at around EUR 1.2 billion and SG&A expenses at around EUR 0.4 billion. The effective tax rate for Q3 was 16.1% for the full year 2026, the expected annualized effective tax rate is around 17%. Net income in Q3 was EUR 5 billion, which includes around EUR 0.5 billion as a result of an increase in the valuation of our initial investment in the [indiscernible] AI, representing 42.5% of total net sales and resulting in earnings per share of EUR 12.95. Turning to the balance sheet. We ended the third quarter with cash, cash equivalents and short-term investments at a level of EUR 12.7 billion. Our fee cash flow in Q3 was EUR 11.4 billion, underpinning the strong order momentum of our customers and related down payments. Moving to the cash return to our shareholders. In Q3, ASML paid the first interim dividend over 2026 of EUR 1.88 per ordinary share. Further, we purchased in Q3 around EUR 4.1 billion worth of shares under the current 2026-2028 share buyback program. The second quarterly interim dividend over 2026 will be EUR 1.88 per ordinary share and will be made payable on November 4, 2026. With that, I would like to turn to our expectations for the fourth quarter and the full year 2026. We expect Q4 total net sales to be between EUR 14.2 billion and EUR 15.2 billion with a gross margin of around 57%. We expect our Q4 installed base management sales to be around EUR 3.7 billion. The expected R&D expenses for Q4 are around EUR 1.2 billion and SG&A is expected to be around EUR 0.4 billion. Regarding our full year expectations, we expect our full year 2026 total net sales to be between EUR 44 billion and EUR 45 billion, with a gross margin of around 56%. This anticipated year-over-year total net sales increase of around 36% reflects our expectation of over 45% growth in EUV, around 20% growth in non-EV related system sales and around 50% growth in installed base management sales. Turning to end use. This year, we expect Logic net system sales to grow around 10%, and Memory net system sales to grow around 75%. The growth in Memory is driven by the combination of capacity expansion of our customers and the increasing adoption of EUV on advanced DRAM nodes. As previously mentioned, we continue to expect the China region to account for around 20% of our total net sales this year. In summary, the third quarter was a record for both total net sales and gross margin, and we expect our business to continue to accelerate in the fourth quarter as we execute against a backdrop of very strong customer demand for auto products and services. With that, I would like to turn the call back over to Christophe.

Thank you, Roger. If we take a step back to look at the market environment, we see that the pace of the AI build-out continues to be very robust. Supply shortages across advanced logic and memory nodes continue to increase in size and in time horizon. Against this backdrop, we had very constructive discussions with our customers throughout the quarter and the demand signals we have received have continued to strengthen. Our leading-edge high-volume customers are sharing very good visibility as a result of the increasing number of long-term commitments they are securing with their customers. This extended visibility has led them to conclude that demand for their product will outpace supply through at least 2028. As a result, customers are accelerating capacity build-out plans and preparing for further expansion beyond 2028 in order to better meet the anticipated level of demand. For us, their drive to add capacity is translating into not only greater short-term demand across our entire holistic lithography portfolio, but also improved longer-term visibility and demand, especially for our EUV products. As customers shift focus to their needs beyond 2027, our order momentum continues to build. We are increasingly receiving orders for 2028 and customers are also expressing interest in placing orders for 2029 and even 2030. As our customers are preparing to meet rising demand, we, in turn, continue our focus on adding capacity to support their needs. Roger will now share further details on our latest plans on providing our customers additional capacity. Roger?

Thank you, Christophe. We have been very successful in ramping capacity this year. For low NA EUV, we anticipated output of roughly 65 systems for 2026, which is nearly 50% more than the 44 systems that we shipped last year. For DUV immersion systems, while our initial output target for these systems was well below the prior year, we now expect we will deliver a similar quantity in 2026 as we did in 2025. Looking further ahead, we shared our intent last quarter to increase our capacity in 2027 by 30% for both low NA EUV and DUV immersion systems as well as to investigate adding a further 30% in 2028. However, given the dynamics of this quarter, we now anticipate that our current plant levels of output in '27 and '28 will not fully meet the demand of our customers. Therefore, we continue to strengthen our efforts to produce more systems, especially beyond '27 and with that goal in mind, are now looking into expanding our 2028 capacity even above the 30% year-on-year growth target that was under investigation last quarter for both low NA EUV and immersion systems. In addition to shipping new systems, we support customer needs for more wafer capacity through productivity upgrades across our EUV and DUV installed base as well as with the introduction of new products. The ability to enable an increase in capacity through upgrades on the same footprint is very compelling for our customers as the effect is an immediate increase in output capability. We will continue to work on this important value driver, expanding the upgrade portfolio offering, new productivity options to our customers in the coming years. The introduction of new products is the other lever that we have to support increased wafer capacity. We plan to introduce our next-generation low NA EUV system, the NXE-3800F starting in small quantities at the beginning of 2027. This system is specified at a throughput of 260 wafers per hour compared to the 230 wafers per hour capability of the NXE-3800E system. We also plan to introduce the next-generation critical deep UV immersion running at 330 wafers per hour. These new products will provide incrementally more wafer capacity to the industry as they ramp in the coming years. With that, I will hand it back over to Christophe for a technology update.

Thank you, Roger. This quarter, we saw meaningful momentum around INA EUV with several industry announcements providing evidence of the technologies progress from development towards production. Intel announced that it has exposed more than 1 million wafers using its INA EUV systems with performance that meets or exceeds comparable layers pattern using low NA EUV. Additionally, Samsung and TSMC announced plans to introduce INA EUV into high-volume manufacturing in 2028 and 2030, respectively. With availability across the existing INA EUV fleet approaching 90%, we now expect to see adoption increase node to node moving forward. To further ensure chip makers can fully leverage the advantage of INA EUV, we also, in collaboration with TSMC, began an industry-wide initiative to develop larger formats EUV photo maps. This collaborative effort aims to establish a 12-inch mass pilot line by 2031 and enter production in 2033. The broad support for this transition reflects customer interest in maximizing the value of INA EUV and investing in the next generation of this technology. In closing, the combination of very strong demand fundamentals, improved visibility and rising litho intensity reinforce our confidence in the trajectory of our business. Our focus continues to be on supporting our customers as they ramp their logic and memory nodes by continuing to expand our capacity over a multiyear horizon while also delivering enhanced productivity by executing our technology road map. In Q3, we have also shipped the first Yieldstar 550B metrology system. This overlay measurement system is designed with improved accuracy and precision to support a tighter process control requirements of the 14 extra node in logic and the 1 node in [indiscernible]. The system is designed to deliver more than 60% greater productivity over the previous generation Star allowing customers to measure more wafers and therefore more quickly drive yield improvement in their processes. This latest generation system continue to support major adoption of first customer with a demand that is expected to more than double for the coming years versus 2025. Finally, the transition of INA EUV into high-volume manufacturing creates accompanying opportunity for customers to enhance the economics of their future road map, and we remain fully committed to helping them execute a successful insertion. With that, we would like -- we will be happy to take your questions.

Thank you, Roger, and thank you, Christophe. The operator will instruct you momentarily on the protocol for the Q&A session. [Operator Instructions] Now operator, could we have your final instructions and then the first question, please.

[Operator Instructions] And your first question today, of course, from the line of Joseph Quatrochi from Wells Fargo.

I was wondering if you could provide maybe just a little additional color on the capacity expansion that you need beyond the 30% previously talked about. And just what do you think you can do in 2027 relative to that kind of mid-80s that we talked about last quarter.

Well, I think that we are basically working very hard to increase capacity. And I think this is true now, as Roger explained, we've done a lot of that this quarter. That's going to be true next year, and that's going to be true in 2028. And the reason for that, as we explained, is we continue to see customers asking for more tools. Now if we look at some of the opportunity we see, of course, it's a bit easier for us to enable those opportunity later, so mostly in 2028 rather than on the shorter term. So this is what we are focusing on. I won't give a new number for '27 or '28 because it's far too early to give those numbers as we continue to basically do everything we can to get extra capacity.

Okay. And then as a follow-up, you talked about it in the prepared remarks or in the transcript value-based pricing impacting more 2027 and 2028. Can you share any just a few more additional details on that on how to think about just kind of the trajectory of gross margin from here?

Yes. So those are 2 questions, right? So first on the pricing. As we mentioned in July, at that point, we were entering into conversations with customers on price increases. Those conversations have been completed and have indeed led to pricing increase for what we call the most critical products for our customers. So that has been done. As we also -- and you made reference to it, as we said in the prepared remarks, this is not going to have an impact on '26. You will see some impact on '27, but I would say that the full impact of that is really going to start in '28. So from '28 onwards, you're going to see the sustained impact of that, but you will see -- in the course of '27, you will see that starting to manifest itself in a positive way in both our revenue and the ASPs and in the gross margin. Your second question on gross margin is obviously a much broader question. But let me take that one Dan. So what are the puts and takes on the gross margin. So as you have seen, gross margin this quarter, very, very strong and stronger than we anticipated. I would say primarily as a result of the $400 million more upgrade business that we have. But we should also not forget that if you look at the total year at 56%, it's not just the upgrade business, right? It's also higher volume. It's also the fact that we have a very strong loan EUV business in there, very strong immersion business in there. So those are all things that help. And then obviously, the question is, how will that develop into the years beyond this year, right? So what's the implication for '27 and beyond. And of course, we're not going to give you a gross margin percentage for that will come in January of 2027. But if you look at the key drivers of the gross margin this year, you have to ask yourself how much of that can be sustained into 2027. So first off, volume, with everything that Christophe just told you on the 30% increase in 2027, of course, volume should help, right? And volume as long as we're able to control the cost of the increase in capacity, volume should give you better fixed cost coverage. So that should be a positive in that level. The second element is mix. And there are to, again, key drivers of the volume are the 30% extra in immersion and low INA EUV. Both of them are obviously very positive from a gross margin perspective. Of course, there will be quite some dry business that we continue to increase this year, but also next year. But I would say that also mix with the strength in EUV demand and emerging demand that should help. Then to your point, we have the price increase, which, as I mentioned, will have some effect in '27, the larger effect you will see in '28, but it will have some effect in '27. So that's going to be helpful. And then finally, in the positive sense, I would probably call out the mix effect within the EUV, right, where the mix effect next year is going to be better than this year because this year, we still have quite some models in the mix that won't materially be the case anymore next year, and we will have a few [indiscernible] in there as well. So that's going to be helpful in the total easing. So those are key elements, and then what are the things that we need to watch out for. Well, one, as I mentioned, is the ramp cost, right? So how much cost are we incurring to ramp not just for '27 but also for beyond. So that's 1 thing that we simply need to manage those costs well. And then there is the swing factor of the upgrades, right? Because as we mentioned, the upgrades are very, very strong this year. So that really begs the question, how sustainable is the upgrade business. And if you look into that, the sustainability of the upgrade business, there's a few elements to bear in mind there. First off, we still see, as of today, that there is quite some addressable market for us on the upgrade business. So if you look at the upgrade -- the number of upgrades that we have performed in the field, it's quite a few tools, but there are still quite a few tools out there that have not yet been upgraded. So that gives you good potential for the coming quarter, but also for the years thereafter. Second, as we mentioned on the video, we're also aggressively pushing upgrade products. So we will bring new upgrade products to the market. And of course, that would open an entirely new addressable market for us in the installed base. So that's helpful. And so there is a question, how will the market continue in the current market environment with the demand that is out there, as we just said, there is a lot of appetite for these upgrades. So I would say upgrade is an important swing factor for us in the gross margin development as we see in '27 and beyond, very strong this year. But I think we're at least from our side, doing whatever we can to create as much opportunity for upgrade business on a go-forward basis as we can.

Your next question today comes from the line of Krish Sankar from TD Cowen.

Christopher or Roger, my first one, I understand you don't want to give exact capacity numbers. I'm just wondering under the strong demand environment, is there a natural ceiling on your EV output either due to pace at BIC or [indiscernible] capacity? Or in other words, if the demand is there, can you do 140 or 150 units in 2028. And along the same line, do you worry that customers are pulling in orders or giving you bigger forecast just to secure a slot. I had a quick follow-up after that.

Yes. So maybe I may try to answer both questions. So first on maybe what we are doing to increase the capacity. So I think I mentioned that before. This is a task really started several months ago. And I think there are really 3 elements to it. The first one is to optimize the footprint we have here in order to basically build our machines. We have, as you know, a pretty important footprint and we started to make sure that most of that footprint can be used for output. And that's true for low NA EUV. That's also true, by the way, for DUV, including immersion. And this creates already some opportunity that we can use and build up again this year, next year and in 2028. The second one, which I think is a very big opportunity and still a major parameter is the cycle time, meaning the time we spend in our factory with a certain given machines. And as we gain in maturity, for example, on the NXE-3800E, we are capable to shorten the cycle time for a certain given sequence, but we are also capable to further optimize the sequence, meaning there are things that we needed to initially in order to qualify a tool, which over time in agreement with our customer we believe we don't have to do any more. And I would say that this approach, we can take pretty far moving forward, and this is one of the really key opportunity we see basically moving forward. And as I mentioned before, as we go over time, the opportunity continue to materialize, which give us some more hope and opportunity. On the supply chain, of course, I mean, indirectly, your question is or your remark is that we have to supply the supply chain. This is something that we take into account, starting with [indiscernible]. So we do not see [indiscernible] today as a bottleneck for the capacity expansion we are discussing even beyond the 30% we mentioned for 2028. And we have done in the recent years, many, many work with all the supply chain to make sure that the supply chain will not be an issue for us. So we continue, of course, to watch that very carefully. Clearly, you understand that every time you have capacity, of course, we create more challenges there. So we do that. And the last thing I would say is that we have time. I mean if you look at the progress we have done this year, I think they are very significant. We are feeling pretty good about next year. And the time we have, again, for next year for 2028 is still significant for us to continue to be very creative on all those fronts. So that's, I would say, the first -- the answer to your first question. On the second one, I think I mentioned in the introduction, we have very good conversations with our customers. And the conversation is not only about how many tools they need. It's also about exactly when those tools will be hitting the ground in their factories. And when it comes to the demand we are referring to the increased demand we are referring to, I think we are very much capable to validate the demand with some more detailed plan, our customers are sharing with us in terms of fab construction, release, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that we -- when we talk about demand, when we refer to demand in those discussions, we really referred to demand, we believe, is real and not inflated by any potential buying behavior from our customers.

Got you. That's super helpful, Christophe. And then a quick follow-up for Roger. On the value pricing, is this across the board? Is it for systems, services, spare parts, everything? And I'm guessing, based on your commentary, you're not repricing the backlog. Can you just clarify that?

Yes. Exactly how we do it, Krish, I'm not going to share it. But as I mentioned, we are increasing prices for we call the most critical products, those products that bring most value to our customers. So these are the high-range, high-volume manufacturing projects. Those are the ones that provide most value to customers in the current environment, and those are the ones that we put the pricing increases on it. And you will also understand that upgrade prices are closely associated with the prices of the tools. So that's -- they will also follow upgrade prices will also follow this trned. That's how we do it and exactly how we do it, when we do it, et cetera. I don't want to go into any detail, but the bottom line is that we will start to see the effect on that in the course of 2027, but the full effect you will start to see from '28 and onwards.

Your next question today comes from the line of Sandeep Deshpande from JPMorgan.

My question is back again to the question of your indication that you are looking at adding more capacity than the 30% into 2028. There are multiple components that you need to be able to add capacity. And some of these suppliers of ASML will need to add physical capacity to be able to supply you with this kind of huge volume increases, given that there's already a 30% increase in 2027. Have these discussions started with customers? Does ASML need to make any substantial payments to these suppliers in terms of adding this capacity? And are there any particular impediments. And given that you yourself do not have any additional physical capacity until 2029, how is this whole supply chain being managed to be able to produce more capacity in 2028. I have a quick follow-up after that.

So I will try to add a bit to what I said before. I think that -- the only real challenge we have with the supply chain is to make sure they can ramp. I think that there is no question on their side on the -- say, the strength of the demand on the strength of the ramp. I think that the main challenge with all our suppliers, because in this case, we all the suppliers is make sure that they can go up 30% every year. Now Roger mentioned it before in the introduction, we went up this year by 50% on EUV, which is designed basically that these are the kind of things we are capable to do with the suppliers. And as you can imagine, that's a discussion that we have with them on a very regular basis. And us mentioning 30% growth in '27, more than 30% growth in '28 is the results of the confidence we have that this entire supply chain can, of course, follow our own demand, both on EUV and DUV. That exercise, I would say, of course, could be extended as far as needed because we are continuing also to add, I will say, suppliers. So we are continuing to make sure so that we have more and more people who can produce some of our parts, especially in the noncritical one. And when it comes to the very critical one, [indiscernible] comes to mind again, we are absolutely strategically aligned the trajectory of the industry and therefore, the strategic of the demand. So these are very, very detailed intense discussion. But again, every number we share with you is the reserves of us having validated that the supply chain can, of course, follow those numbers.

Quickly, Roger, on the gross margin, your guidance on gross margin in the fourth quarter is down from the current quarter, even though your revenues are going up significantly. And then, I mean, just again, regarding the response you made earlier about the value-based pricing, should we assume that most of the value-based pricing-related increases will go straight to the gross margin line? Or is there a margin number on these increases that you will be putting through?

So on the first one, the gross margin in Q4, a little bit lower from Q3, that is primarily related to the fact that we are seeing some ramp costs, right? So we're ramping up for the increases that Christophe was just talking about. That has a bit of a bearing on the gross margin expectation. And that's why the fixed cost coverage that you would expect to benefit from the higher volume is a little bit compensated and a bit more compensated by the extra cost that we incur in the ramp as we see it now in Q4. So that's the main reason that we have there. In terms of the price increase and to what extent is the price increase completely precious to the gross margin, of course, they are the same applies, right? I mean, one of the arguments that we've had also in our competitions with our customers, is that we are incurring costs in order to ramp, right? So ramp costs will give you some additional costs. So it will definitely be accretive to the gross margin. But again, you will see some ramp costs that we are incurring in 2027 in order to get to the elevated numbers that Christophe was just talking about and this is both for ourselves, but also into the supply chain for the reasons that, Sandeep, you just mentioned, right? We need to make sure that the supply chain is completely attuned to what we're looking for. And of course, that also means that in some places, there is some help needed to get that done. So there is some portion of the increase -- of the price increase that we need to cover for the extraordinary ramp that we're going through. But I would say that's still a significant part of it is directly accretive to the gross margin.

Our next question today comes from the line of Francois-Xavier Bouvignies from UBS.

So I just wanted to follow up a bit on this shortage situation. Obviously, we are in a very unprecedented time with this capacity constrained for your customers. But also today, you are claiming that on your side as well, the demand will be higher than supply. So I mean, the behavior usually that people order as much as they can, especially if you start seeing someone to make sure they have the tools. And we've seen other industries some long-term agreements, some prepayment, try to get a more true sense of the demand. I was wondering if you were considering any change of the way you want to contract with your customers in those times, for example, increasing the prepayments or also adding like more the firm orders earlier to make sure you know that your customers are committed?

Yes, Francois. So if we take that and we said it before, if you put an order with ASML, that's not a frivolous piece of paper that you put your name under. It comes with 2 serious commitments. One serious commitment is a commitment to make a down payment. And as I qualified it before, it's a down payment that is enough to hurt, right? So that's one element. And secondly, a PO is a real commitment on both sides of the equation, and it also means that it's -- if you want to get rid of that commitment, that's not going to be easy, right? It's -- that comes at a price, not just the down payment, but more than that. So therefore, before customers sign a PO with ASML, they've made up their mind, they're not doing this previously. In terms of will you accept orders early on, as Christophe mentioned, we are getting the request of customers to to accept for us to accept their orders, their POs already for 2029 and 2030. And the only reason why Christophe words in that way that customers are requesting us and therefore, we have not yet accepted those is that we want to make sure that we have a good picture of what the overall demand in '29 and 2030 looks like that customers are currently signaling and mirror that against the capacity expansion as we see it at that point in time. And we want to do that because we don't want now to accept orders from customer A, B and C. And then to tell customer Don't given orders yet for '29 and 2030, sorry, we're sold out. I mean, that would be totally inappropriate for customers that have been business partners with us for a very long period of time. So we're now really using this period of time to mirror -- to get a good understanding what is the total demand that our customers are sickening for the '29-2030 time frame. What does it look like? What is for us a reasonable expectation of capacity as we see it in the '29-2030 time frame. And once we have that picture ready, then we are ready to accept orders and also accept the commitments from our side to execute on those orders. So we -- the only hesitation we have at this stage is that we really want to do our homework, we're very diligent on the acceptance of the orders that customers are offering us. to make sure that no single customer feels left out.

The second one is on the high NA news flow. I mean Christophe, you mentioned this high-volume manufacturing in '28 with the memory [indiscernible] and also TSMC in 2030. And if I look at the parcel low NA when we started this high-volume manufacturing, I mean, we saw a significant step-up in shipments during those years. So I was wondering if we should think about high NA shipments in '28 to increase significantly on the back of it and potentially a double-digit number of high-end shipments to -- as we go forward?

Well, I think it's -- we're still looking at the very initial ramp. I think that you are going and to see that every year, our customers are going to need more tools as they validate in manufacturing that they like INA and that most probably, the plan over time, more layers. I think the announcement and the drive of TSMC first on the 12-inch particle is very interesting there because the first signal it gives is that in the mind of the customer, they would be more and more use of INA because if it was not the case, I mean, no one were really bother to go to 12-inch mask on INA. So the 12 inch match drive and very wide adoption by customer and the consumption is just a sign that everyone has in mind over time to develop basically more and more adoption of INA. So with that, it's always difficult to say exactly how this will basically manifest itself. We also have, of course, a very big ramp. So there's a lot of focus on building up capacity, which sometimes can have a positive or negative impact on the INA rollout, depending if customer see INA as additional capacity or potentially a bit of a slowdown. But the number will grow for sure year after year. And again, the message, I think all our customers have given this quarter with their participation into the 12-inch consortium is that they believe over time, this will become a very important technology and the number of players will grow over time, for sure.

Your next question today comes from the line of Lee Simpson from Morgan Stanley.

And maybe just a follow-up to the last answer set. I thought it was quite interesting that if you look at the noncurrent liabilities, there's quite a material jump Q-on-Q, were of the order of about $5 billion. And typically, the bulk of that is down payment. So can we make a read through to a relative size of big order intake in Q3? That's question number one. And I think maybe alongside that, it did seem to infer, Christophe, in your answer to last question that it's perhaps new customers that are bringing you to, sort of, thinking about the '29 and '30, sort of, framework. And as you say, you still want to keep your marginal buyers still in the mix here. Are we right in saying that most of this is coming from new customers as a result.

Yes. On the first one, the noncurrent liabilities, does that include down payments Yes, it does, right? So in that way, it is an interesting gauge of how order intake is developing. I should say it's a bit of a lagging indicator because typically, the down payment and the receipt of the money lags a little bit the actual signing of the PO. So it is a bit of a lagging indicator. But for lack of any PO numbers that you get from ASML, it's a nice project. Yes.

Yes. I'm not sure I fully understood the second question. So I think the second question, I think, was on the customers in '29, '30, that's express an interest to do that. I think your question is, Lee, is that a totally new customer that might potentially start with the [indiscernible]. And might this be that this customer is in that way, sort of locking out existing customers.

[indiscernible] than I would.