Asset Plus Limited (APL) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome. My name is Bruce Cotterill. I'm the Chairman of Asset Plus. And on behalf of the Board, I'd like to thank you all for attending the 2024 Annual Meeting and for those of you online, who've dialed in, which I declare open. I need to start with an apology, I'm full of a head cold. So if the voice cracks up halfway through, please, excuse me. I might be a bit hard to listen to, but bear with me. Before moving to the formal matters, I'd just like to introduce, our fellow directors on the Asset Plus Board who are all here with me. On my immediate left is Allen Bollard, the Independent Director. On my immediate right, Carol Campbell, an Independent Director. Then the far end there, we have Paul Duffy, also now an Independent Director who although was originally a Non-Executive Director. And online with us joining us from Sydney is John McBain, Non-executive Director joining by video conference. We also have with us today Mark Francis, sitting between Paul and Allen, the CEO of Centuria, New Zealand; and Stephen Brown-Thomas, our Asset Plus Fund Manager. And Stephen will be providing the presentation on the details surrounding the company's performance after the Chairman's address. The broader Centurion team are also here with us. Luke Fitzgibbon, Simon Woollams; and auditors, Grant Thornton are also with us today present for any questions that may arise in respect of the financial statements. But it is a pleasure to welcome you all here today, including those with us in person. And as I said, those of us who have joined us online. To those of you online, just I guess a few housekeeping matters. If you encounter any issues, please refer to the virtual Annual Meeting online portal guide or you can find the help line on 0800-200-220. And please send through any questions you may have as soon as you can so that we're able to answer these during the meeting. In opening the meeting, I can confirm that our share registrar has confirmed the notice of meeting was duly sent to all shareholders and persons entitled to receive notice of it via the share registrar, MUFG Corporate Markets. A quorum for the meeting of being at least 3 shareholders has been achieved and proxies totaling 53.5% of the total votes have been received. A total -- copy of our presentation slides will be posted on the website of the company and has also been released to the NZX so that all shareholders have access to the presentations as have been delivered today. Before we move to the agenda, I'd like to remind shareholders of how they participate in the virtual meeting. In order to participate, you'll need to have inserted your shareholder number or CSN. And once this has been done, you can click on Ask a Question to send your questions through. Click on get a voting card to submit your vote. And as I mentioned, we'll address the questions once the presentations have been concluded. And shareholders, of course, are free to submit their vote at any time until the conclusion of the resolutions. The main agenda for the meeting is the same as usual. There'll be a Chairman's address shortly, where I'll provide an overview of the company's performance for the year. And the key highlights, Stephen Brown-Thomas, from Centuria will then provide further detail on the past year's performance and provide more detail on the outlook. We'll then open the floor to any questions. We do have some questions that have come in advance of the meeting, which we'll deal with at that point. And we'll then put the proposed resolutions that will be voted on with an opportunity for specific questions on each resolution, if necessary. Finally, we'll open up for any general business. Shareholders have had the opportunity to lodge items of general business in advance of the meeting and we will address those in the general business section. The meeting will then conclude and after the meeting, you're invited to join us for some light refreshments, which I understand will just be in the lobby area out here. So turning down now to my address, the Chairman's address for 2024. As we all know, the economic environment continues to be difficult. And of course, the property market has not escaped those challenges. As a result, the listed property sector in New Zealand has reflected fair value losses in the order of $1.5 billion in the year to 31 March 2024. And have been trading at an average discount to NTA of 25% over the course of the financial year. In the financial year '24, despite the challenging economic backdrop, we've continued to deliver on the key objectives we set ourselves, including the delivery of the Munroe Lane development, which achieved practical completion in July '23 and had Auckland Council occupying and paying rent from 17 May 2023. We've managed the balance sheet in order to mitigate the impacts of the high interest rate environment. And we've successfully divested of 22 Stoddard Road, Auckland, which settled on May '23. You might recall that was that property was sold immediately before the last Annual General Meeting, but it's settled in this current financial year. Achieving practical completion on the Munroe Lane development was the culmination of a 4-year journey from project inception to conclusion and the property adds a sustainable well-located central office building to the Albany Strip with a blue-chip tenant covenant being Auckland Council across two thirds of the property. Munroe Lane development was committed to in a buoyant market, but unfortunately was completed in a distressed market. And sadly, the updated value of the asset reflects the recent high interest rate environment and the resultant increased cost of capital. However, we do anticipate that market conditions will stabilize over the next 12 to 24 months. Interest rates will reduce. And of course, we got an indication of that probably for the first time last week from the Reserve Bank. And over time, we would expect to see a firming of cap rates as a result. Once we secure further leasing commitment, this too should impact the value of the asset and make it more appealing for potential purchases, if and when a sale is explored. Whilst leasing the remainder of the space within Munroe Lane continues to prove challenging, leasing inquiry has picked up since the completion of the property. It really is a spectacular property to visit and walking through the Council's office space, it does give a pretty good indication of what could be achieved for tenants moving into the vacant space. But there does remain a paucity of potential occupiers of scale on the North Shore, in the current environment. But it's a good building. It's brand new, and we're confident that the fundamentals of the property will ultimately attract tenant commitment for the balance of the space in due course. The commencement of the Auckland Council lease meant income was bolstered, which partly offset the divestments and the ongoing vacancy at 35 Graham Street. As a result, we recorded adjusted funds from operations loss of $670,000. This result for the full year was in line with expectations. And I ask you to note that the vacancy and unrecovered OpEx on 35 Graham Street will continue until the settlement of the sale process occurs in November of this year. As most of you all know, the dividend was suspended in March 2022, based on our forecast earnings at that time for the company, and it's likely to remain on hold until 35 Graham Street settles and the future of the company is determined. We're also in the process of considering options for our cash reserves of approximately $25 million, which will be held by the company post the settlement, post the Graham Street settlement. We need to talk about asset values in a discussion like this. And the higher than usual inflationary and interest rate environment has continued to adversely impact the fair value of assets in the period, with our valuers recording a $4.9 million reduction in the fair value of assets of the company. This was driven by the valuation of Munroe Lane reducing over the period and partly offset by the discount unwind at 35 Graham Street. As a result, NTA reduced from $0.404 a share as at the 31st of March 2023 to $0.389 a share as at 31 March 2024. As part of our attempts to manage capital in an appropriate manner, the cost of the company's debt meant that Stoddard Road was unconditionally sold for $36.75 million and settled in May 2023. And this asset was sold, as I said in the previous financial period, but settled in the most recent year. And all of the proceeds from that sale were utilized to repay debt. The outcome achieved as a result of that was accretive for the company given that what the company's cost of debt had been. Turning to 35 Graham Street, in October 2023, subsequent to our last annual meeting, the purchaser of 35 Graham Street exercised their right to defer the settlement of the purchase by 12 months. As a result, the purchase price increased by a further $3 million to $68 million and the deposit increased to 20% of the total consideration. That additional deposit of $7.1 million was also applied to debt repayments, reducing the LVR down to 18.2%. On the topic of debt, during the year upon practical completion of Munroe Lane, the development finance facility was converted to an investment facility, and we've retained sufficient headroom of just under $12 million, $11.9 million to fund incentives and leasing across the remaining vacant space. Looking forward, the company's key focus remains on 2 major factors: One is, of course, the successful settlement of 35 Graham Street in November, the end of November. And the leasing the balance of the Munroe Lane development. As I've said, further leasing at Munroe Lane will increase earnings and better position the company to consider its options moving forward. Those options will include potentially a divestment of Munroe Lane subject to market conditions of the time and subject also, of course, to the support of shareholders. However, it's worth pointing out that a potential sale of the asset is unlikely in the near term given the current market conditions and the lack of available capital for transactions of this scale. Once the settlement of 35 Graham Street occurs, we anticipate that the company will ultimately have 0 debt and cash reserves of just over $25 million. There are a range of options for the application of these funds, including the acquisition of additional property, holding funds on deposit, as we wait out the market changes that we're going through or reviewing our position in respect of dividends. The Board intends on communicating our intent to shareholders once Graham Street settles, funds are received, and the alternatives are properly canvassed. In the 2025 year with calendar year with 0 debt and a positive cash position, the company will have further options to consider, which may include the sale of Munroe Lane and the wind up of the company. Or alternatively, a new direction. As previously indicated, any steps to sell Munroe Lane or to subsequently wind up the company will require shareholder approval and we fully intend taking those decisions to shareholders to vote on at the time. We expect that these decisions will likely occur sometime in the next 12 to 24 months, subject to the market conditions stabilizing, and further leasing commitment being secured at Munroe Lane. In the meantime, we thank you again for your continued support and patience as we contend with the various factors impacting the company. and we look forward to communicating our progress over the next few months with the settlement of Graham Street in late November. Thank you. That concludes the Chairman's report and we will take questions after the next presentation. And so I'd like to welcome Stephen Brown-Thomas to the podium to provide further detail on the portfolio and the outlook for the company. Thank you.

Thank you, Bruce, and good afternoon, everyone. Great to see you all here today and to those joining us online with the virtual meeting participants. I'm Stephen Brown-Thomas, I'm the Fund Manager from Centuria for Asset Plus, and we're the external manager of the company. The result for financial year '24 was in line with expectations at an operational level, as indicated by Bruce, with adjusted funds from operation loss of $0.67 million. That AFFO loss, as touched on by Bruce, driven by the ongoing vacancy at 35 Graham Street, but offset by the lease commencing at Munroe Lane with Auckland Council. Capital markets do remain challenging with asset values remaining under pressure, as Bruce has also alluded to, and that's resulted in $4.9 million of revaluation losses, primarily on the Munroe Lane property, leading to total losses for the year of $5.3 million. As noted by Bruce, the key milestone during the financial year was the Munroe Lane completion with Auckland Council lease commencing on the 17th of May and practical completion occurring on the 13th of July. So just touching on the key metrics for the company now. These are as at 31 March and, obviously, comparing them to 31 March in the prior year as well. So key differences being the divestment of Stoddard Road in May last year. And obviously, we've also got the unconditional sale of 35 Graham Street. So on a look-through basis, the company is effectively left with one asset being Munroe Lane. So as noted, the key activity during the year includes culmination of that 4-year journey for Munroe Lane that started back in 2019. It's obviously been a very interesting period through COVID and subsequent macroeconomic environment and now hopefully heading into a slightly improving outlook. As touched on by Bruce as well, the 35 Graham Street purchaser exercised their contractual right to extend that settlement by a further 12 months with the further deposit receives and total consideration increasing accordingly. And as noted, that Stoddard Road property also unconditionally sold, and that's settled on the first of May 2023. Just turning to Munroe Lane now. You can obviously see the number of images throughout this presentation showcasing the quality and testament of the efforts that we put in there and the culmination of that product. In our view, sets a new benchmark of quality office space on the North Shore and effectively CBD grade quality space in Albany. And it was a significant milestone to achieve that completion in July. We were blessed by iwi, who blessed the site before we commence and blessed the site before opening and also gifted us a name for the building, Hawiti, which was received very well. As communicated previously as well, once further leasing is achieved, we will obviously look at considering a potential divestment of that property. And as Bruce noted, that will be subject to market conditions improving as well. So with the price shifts and interest rates, capitalization rates have had an impact on property values; unfortunately, we haven't escaped it, as Bruce noted. And that's resulted in total development losses to date of $15 million. So the valuation here of $116.2 million reflects the committed occupancy of Auckland Council and Fields café. So there is potentially valuation upside once further leasing commitment is secured, and we bolster that income stream across the currently vacant spaces. So at the moment, our committed occupancy remains at 2/3 through the Auckland Council lease, which, if you recall, is 15 years from practical completion last year. We also secured Little Fields café during the course of the year with fair lease commencing earlier this year. That provides an important amenity in the heart of the development on the ground floor there, which helps activate that space and, obviously, providing a key use for building occupants. Our direct and indirect marketing initiatives for the vacant space continue working with all major leasing agencies across Auckland. However, leasing interest does remain unfortunately muted just given the wider macroeconomic conditions, hybrid working and recent working from home trends. Tenants of scale, unfortunately, do remain limited on the North Shore and some of you may be aware that Vodafone, now One, have recently announced they're moving back to the CBD, which is happening late next year. That's going to leave a circa 10,000 square meter hole of competing office space at Smiles Farm on the North Shore, which obviously is going to make that leasing market more challenging as well, adding additional quantum of space at that scale. So we have touched on previously at various AGMs and meetings that our building does have some flexibility built into the design. With all of the tenancies able to be split into smaller tenancies, so that we can meet the market. There are also options where we can join floor space on the ground level, Level 1 and Level 2 up to space above so that anyone that requires a front of house or customer-facing element, we can accommodate that at the lower levels, so we do have some flexibility there, and we can tailor our spaces that we have to meet any occupant of any scale effectively in the market. Moving on to Graham Street now. As noted, unconditionally sold with the deferred settlement date of 29 November. The original purchase price was $65 million, with settlement for slated for December '23. However, Mansons, the purchaser exercised their contractual right to extend that by a further 12 months, and that revised settlement date is now 29 November 2024. As a result, $3 million of additional consideration was paid and the deposit was increased to 20% of that new total consideration of $68 million. And those deposit proceeds were utilized to repay debt. We've continued to pursue all short-term income-generating opportunities that's been predominantly driven by car parking to help offset the operating expenses on that property and drive lower loss there. However, given the partially demos nature of that space, it has made pursuing income-generating opportunities quite limited, given we just couldn't put an office tenant in there. And then obviously, previously, we didn't have certainty around when the settlement date was going to occur as well with the purchaser having that extension right. But we are ticking away ever closer to that settlement date. So moving forward, the company's key focus is leasing Munroe Lane and then looking at the options for that property. We need to note that the leasing of Munroe Lane will influence the timing of key decisions relating to that property, and it's also going to be driven by market conditions at the time. Once settlement of 35 Graham Street occurs, the company will have 0 debt and cash reserves, as Bruce has noted, with a range of options to consider that the Board will communicate with shareholders on in due course. In the short term, those options, as alluded to by Bruce, could include acquiring additional property, parking those funds in term deposit to generate a short-term holding position, a potential share buyback, potential partial return of capital through a special dividend. And as noted, once settlement does occur and those funds are received, the Board will communicate with shareholders accordingly. The longer-term options also, as alluded to by Bruce, include a possible wind up of the company and return of capital or potentially pivoting into a new direction if any opportunities arise that are compelling enough. And also, as noted by Bruce, any steps to implement any of those courses of action will require shareholder approval, and we anticipate asking shareholders to vote on those decisions at the same time. In the meantime, the dividend does remain on hold, but is subject to quarterly review and that's going to remain the case until the future direction of the company is known. That now concludes the manager's presentation. I'll hand back to Bruce to facilitate the rest of proceedings. Thank you.

Thank you, Stephen. Thanks, everybody, for sitting there quietly. Now it's your turn, I suppose, to speak up. For our online participants, there are instructions appearing on your screen showing how to ask questions and we'll take those questions. I think who's -- Luke, you've got that covered, as they come through. But before we do that, we have received some questions in advance, which I'll kick off with. We have -- I think we have 3 questions that have come in advance, and they may well cover the questions that a number of you have. And the first of those is from Ivan Turk, who says, when will the Board deliver on the promises that were made before they took over the management rights of this company, namely that they would make it a better and more profitable company for its shareholders, so far that is yet to happen? So thank you, Ivan, for your question. I think just to clarify a couple of points you made. Firstly, the Board hasn't taken over the management rights. The rights were actually purchased by Augusta, which is now Centuria, and that process was approved via a shareholder vote. Secondly, the Directors and the Board are predominantly independent. We have 5 directors, 4 of whom are independent. And that includes the fact that we're independent of the manager. Director remuneration is in the form of fees, which are fully disclosed in the Annual Report. The Board has actively tried to grow the company and we have directed management in the best interest of shareholders and attempted to respond to the market conditions as they have changed and the market conditions have changed dramatically over the course of our involvement with this business. The manager, Centuria, are the largest shareholder at 19.99%. And so it is very clear that their interests are aligned with those of all of the shareholders. And I have to say that they've given it every shot since we first kicked off this relationship in terms of the management of the company and their efforts to grow the company, make it profitable and turn it around. The recent divestments that we've made have been made to preserve the capital position of the company. And we still believe, even in retrospect, that those efforts are in the best interests of the shareholders and the company. To be clear, our managers do not receive sale fees. And the management fee decreases as properties are divested from the portfolio. So for Centuria, their management fees are less now than they were when they first took over the management of the business. So that's clearly well incentivized to grow the business, but timing hasn't been our friend. The market conditions over the last 24 months have impacted the large majority of listed real estate vehicles. And we're just one of those trying to grind our way through it. So Ivan, that's the best I can do in terms of an answer to your question and thank you for asking it. Secondly, from Whangarei Aluminum Joinery Specialists. Why do you need a Board of 5 directors plus in-house management plus an external property management company to run such a small company? So again, I guess, just for clarification, as I've just noted, the management of the company was externalized when the shareholders voted to change from internal to external management. That means we have no internal staff. We don't have a CEO. We don't have a CFO. We don't have staff of our own. We -- that function is entirely outsourced to the Centuria team. As a result, the cost of managing the business is substantially lower than what was the case that preceded it. And as noted in my response to the previous question, the manager is the largest shareholder in the company, and we believe that their interests are aligned with all shareholders. Regarding the directors, despite the company only holding 2 assets, we still require depth and breadth of expertise to manage an NZX listed entity. A team of 5 Directors is not large. Four of the 5 are independents, as I touched on, and all have complementary skills. The Director fee pool is not heavy for a company of this nature. And in fact, it's comparable to NZX-listed entities of a similar market cap. And I'd also add that the highly complex legislative environment, which continues to evolve puts an additional pressure on Board composition and skills matrix. And just to give you an example, the company has just released its inaugural set of climate statements for the 12 months ended 31 March 2024, issued in accordance with the New Zealand climate standards. I'm sure that many of you as investors will be getting used to seeing this now. Having directors who've been through this before, coupled with managers who have scale and in-house expertise has assisted a relatively small company like Asset Plus in preparing those statements in a cost-efficient manner. And I think if we didn't have those resources, it would probably have cost us 2 or 3 times to respond to that particular legislative requirement. So to the team at Whangarei Aluminium Joinery, I hope that answers your question. Finally, the other question is coming from Sage Enterprises. When will the Albany property be sold, so as this fund can be wound up? Thank you, Sage Enterprises. As we've said, really, job #1 is to get Graham Street settled and Munroe Lane leasing further advanced. The company will then have a number of options and a sale and wind up is one of those. But there are others and we need to consider all the options. Given that Munroe Lane will be our only remaining asset, we anticipate asking shareholders to vote on the future of the company when that time approaches. And at the same time, we'll ask shareholders, and we said this last year, we'll ask shareholders to vote on the potential divestment of Munroe Lane and -- as well at the same time. So timing will be a function of market conditions improving, further leasing commitment being secured and the investment market, hopefully, strengthening. There's currently a paucity of potential purchases for Munroe Lane given its scale, location and remaining vacancy. And yes, there are assets for sale out in the market at the moment where the vendors are under considerable pressure. And even in those circumstances, the going is pretty slow in the investment space. So when you're not under financial pressure, it doesn't make any sense to throw ourselves to the wolves that are currently operating in that market. So that's -- thank you very much to Sage Enterprises. That's our response to your question. I now open up to questions from the floor.

Simon Thode, Takapuna.

Probably, use the microphone. If everybody could use a microphone. So as those -- no, you can stay sitting. So as those on the recording can actually hear you. That's the main thing.

Just the Munroe, there's 35%, I believe, still outstanding to be leased. How far have we penetrated the marketing in that area, like there's Massey University. There's the Albany Shopping Complex, that sort of thing. There's people who do -- like schools, English language schools, that sort of thing.

Yes. Yes, we've -- we think we've knocked on all the doors. As Stephen said, we have all of the agents involved. And some of those agents have become proactively involved. In other words, instead of waiting for tenants to come to them, they're out looking, as you suggest. As a result, we've spoken to medical centers, which is not something that would sort of naturally fall into your immediate view. Stephen, you'll -- we pitched for Inland Revenue before they made the decision to go to Smiles Farm. So we have been active chasing the leasing. We have been unsuccessful in dragging tenants out of Takapuna, which is part of what we expected to be able to do, with a new building. But the agents are being proactive in terms of the types of suggestions that you're making. Stephen, if you got anything to add to that?

Yes, probably the other thing is we are looking about 3 years out. So we've got a list of tenants that we know are on the North Shore and when their lease renewals or expiries are. So as Bruce says, we're not waiting for them to come to a real estate agent and say, what options are there? We're going to them, knocking on their door saying, "Hey, you've got a lease renewal or expiry coming up in the next few years, here's Munroe Lane, fantastic brand-new property, how can we get you on site, get you interested in it and try and get engagement." So we've got all of the major agencies doing that. We have also driven around all of the North Shore, making sure that none of the tenants on that potential list have been missed. In terms of the tenants that you have identified, people like Massey University, unfortunately, they're looking to reduce their own space. So they're not looking for more. They're actually in the process of selling or subleasing a large portion of their campus. So a lot of those alternative uses we have considered and explored, but unfortunately, we're not in a strong enough position to look at options at the moment.

I think the leasing deals that have been done over the -- particularly the big leasing deals that have been done over the last year or so have been pretty aggressive in terms of what the lessors have offered the lessees. And the agency community are absolutely aware that we're happy to meet that market. And as you heard earlier, we have a provision to do so. It's just a matter of catching 2 or 3 tenants.

[Technical Difficulty].

No, we haven't. We haven't looked at that, sorry.

Just as a response to that, it's more like a location thing, base thing, where you focus on the -- because like you've got the Harbour Building, which is very hard to lease, has been taken over by, I don't know if you know, Regus, which do -- you can do hot desking, you can rent a space for a day or a week or whatever if someone comes in from overseas, that sort of thing, but you've got that Albany...

Some of those organizations have looked at it. So we have talked to some of those office suite hosts. And we -- I guess their expectations and our expectations haven't been able to meet yet. Sorry, was there anything more on your question, sir? No. And it gets pretty hard when two-thirds of the building is already occupied for commercial purposes. If the whole thing was sitting there empty, you'd be thinking about all sorts of things. But not right now. That would complicate my life more than I need. You'd have to spend a lot more, yes.

Yes. Bruce, before I asked the question, I recommend you to take vitamin C or multivitamin from AFT Pharmaceuticals supporting the listed company. And also me today, they have vitamin C and honey, which can sooth your throat. I've been taking their products for 4 years. I did not have any cold or COVID-19.

Well, it must be working because you look a lot healthier than I feel. So that's good advice. Thank you.

Yes. Trust me, you take their products and you will recover very soon.

Okay. That sounds good. Thank you.

And then, I say, Stephen, you mentioned that the building was opened by the iwi. Yes. And I noticed the declaration, some of them are iwi. And then you have the 5-star green ratings. And this is what the iwis like. And now the iwis actually, they are very rich, richer than us because they have so many compensations. And I think maybe it's a good way to see whether some of them are interested to lease or to buy the whole building. Yes, actually have the agents from the company have tried to reach the iwis, have they?

Yes, we've got a direct relationship with the iwi, having been through the Te Aranga design process, which has resulted in the gifting of the name, et cetera, being on the building. So we do have direct conversations with the various iwi groups, including the ones in the Albany. They unfortunately aren't of a significant enough scale to warrant premises of the scale that we've got here, and they also don't have capital deep enough for an asset of this scale in terms of $116 million being the current valuation. But we do have a dialogue with them, and we have considered those options and discussed it with them. But at this stage, there's no interest, unfortunately.

But many iwis, they have properties more than $1 billion, some even $2 billion, yes, then maybe we wait for -- some patience then. Don't sell at, what shall I say, a below-market price sort of thing, yes.

Thank you. Thank you for your question. And -- we -- and recommendation. We haven't gone to the market to talk about the sale of the asset because it's premature. We would just get -- the value would be hammered because of the vacant space and the state of the market, and that's not in the best interest of shareholders. So we will potentially do so in due course once we're over some of those hurdles. And leasing, as I answered the fellow before, I think we're throwing everything at it. We just need a couple of tenants to stick.

Hello. My name is [ Kevin Aldworth, ] I'm a retail investor. Just a question for Stephen. You say you're looking at potential people to lease Munroe Lane. Are you going out of the city? Are you going to other cities in New Zealand? Are you going into Wellington, Christchurch? You saw tenants from there?

Yes. Look, we have -- we've been advocating to the government property group, GPG, for the best part of 3.5 years. We've been going to Wellington, meeting the CEO there, trying to get government tenants into this property because we felt that colocation with local government, there wasn't a lot of synergy there. Despite our best efforts of lobbying government at a central level, there's been unfortunately very little change. IRD was a prime example of that. This properly fit all of their mandates and requirements down to a tee, in terms of sustainability, specifications, et cetera. But ultimately, the local people wanted to be located in Takapuna rather than Albany, despite us ticking all of the boxes and being better than where they actually ended up. So despite our best efforts, unfortunately, we haven't been able to control those decisions. When we first looked at this and signed up for a deal with counsel, a lot of companies were looking at the hub-and-spoke model. Unfortunately, now that model is hub-and-work-from-home. So that, unfortunately, has not played in our favor, but there have been a few green shoots that we've seen people like Deloitte, set up a satellite office in Albany. It's only small, but hopefully, that's a sign of things to come. We have also engaged with a number of large corporates to try and draw them out to Albany for that hub-and-spoke type model. But as yet, we haven't got any real traction just because people are now entrenched in the hybrid working and working from home, unfortunately. But Auckland traffic, obviously, isn't getting any better and having a hub suburban location like Albany one in the CBD and one in Manukau, exactly what Auckland Council have done definitely works for some organizations, but not all. In terms of out of town, there's very few industries or tenants that are kind of in Wellington or in the South Island that aren't already in Auckland. They're typically tech-based companies. I'm thinking of a few in Christchurch or government and, obviously, government with the change of government. I'm not aware of a single lease that they've actually committed to since the change of government because the mandate is obviously cost cutting and downsizing and that tech sector, as I say, it's typically located where the people are and they're fairly well entrenched where they are.

Do you have any context in the likes of Australia? Do you get any country to country kind of?

Yes. So obviously, being part of the Centuria Group, the parent in Australia covers all of Aussie. There is, unfortunately, not a lot of growth that comes from Australia to New Zealand in terms of office use. All of those major corporates are largely already here and have a presence. So unfortunately, there's not much that is going to come off that relationship and network. But there is the occasional call or lead that we do get that we definitely follow through.

Just one other question. I'm a bit like the man from Fungaray, when you look at the figures, you have Centuria managing 1.5 buildings, building that's vacant. And when you look at the figures, you're looking at F '24, $1.7 million for 2 buildings. I know you've come from a position where you've had multiple billions. Is there any opportunity for Centuria to reduce their percentage rate, bearing in mind that you're only doing really 1 building?

Well, I think, and Simon, you might correct me, but I'm pretty sure that a chunk of those payments last year included the project managers' fees on the completion of the building. Am I correct? Yes. So the annual management fee, can you just off the top of your head?

The annual management fee is 50 basis points or 0.5% of the assets under management. I will note that excludes cash as well. So when Graham Street settles, we're forecasting to have a minimum of $25 million of cash on hand. Centuria will not try to fee on that cash.

So you'll be -- on current valuations, you'll be down under $500,000. No.

But there's still a management fee of $990,000 for one settlement.

Yes, and that will drop in the new year. Yes. No, point taken. But just for perspective, yes, we did replace a structure where we had a staff and a CEO and a finance person and office space that we were leasing. So when we bought the outsourced management in, I can't remember the exact numbers, but I, for some reason, $2.7 million a year was the number, I have in my mind. I don't know if you guys can remember what that was. As what it was costing us just in the -- to run the office. And when we're down to 1 building, as Simon says, it will be down to the order of about $500,000.

Done well to come from the position before.

But it's still just one building.

I've only ever auctioned things upwards. I've never auctioned things downward.

We take a haircut when the share price goes down?

Absolutely.

The market takes a haircut. The percentage today is the same. So...

We're also taking a haircut. We are largest shareholder, our interest, obviously, align with all other shareholders. So when the share price goes down, we're hit equally as hard.

Look, it's a fair discussion. You're absolutely welcome to raise it. And it's a contractual relationship we have with Centuria. And as I say, their interests are pretty closely aligned and their management fee does come down -- markedly down as we've sold off assets. And our focus on selling down assets has been to protect the capital structure. I'm so pleased we got out of Eastgate when we did. I'm pretty happy that we got out of Stoddard Road given what happened to interest rates. So those decisions as hard as they might feel have been in retrospect, the right decisions, and we're going to be sitting at the end of November with an asset with no debt and a chunk of cash. And then subject to leasing, we have some options. And that's not a bad place to be. And in respect of that leasing, we actually need the Centuria team to be firing every gun they have to get that leasing away because that's the key next step, assuming, of course, 35 Graham Street settles, which we're sure it will. The key next step is that leasing focus. But thank you for your question. Yes. Whoever gets the microphone first.

Colin, retail investor. Given the finance and the costs going forward, have you projected a profit -- how big the loss will be for the rest of the -- or this coming year?

Yes, we're running on budget year-to-date. Simon, have you got that at your fingertips? What's our full year budget and profit?

No, we haven't actually...

No, we haven't given a guidance, actually. No. Thank you.

We haven't actually released guidance apart from the fact we've stated that we are in a small operating loss up until the settlement of Graham Street, obviously, acknowledging that we'll be repaying all the bank debt. So yes, obviously, that's going to improve the financial position, but we haven't actually formally released any guidance due to the uncertainty with respect to leasing up Munroe Lane.

Yes. There's another fellow in the corner after...

[ Jenkins, ] shareholder. What would happen if Graham Street doesn't settle?

We have banking in place through until the 31st of March of next year. So it's not an immediate crisis, I guess. We have every expectation that it will settle. The purchaser has been on site regularly even as recently as the last couple of weeks with consultants and designers and planning what they're going to do. We don't know what they're going to do with the property. But every indication is that they will be settling. And they've done a lot of work on it. So I'd be extremely surprised if they don't.

Yes, I know nothing at all about the purchaser, but companies are falling like flies all over the place at the moment.

Yes. These guys are -- well, it's public information. It's Mansons group are the purchaser. And they've just had a pretty good run of late. So I don't think there wouldn't appear to be any reason for them not to settle. And as I say, all indications in terms of how they're behaving and their activity around the site would suggest that they're working out what they're going to do with it and they have a plan.

They've also paid 20% deposit today as well.

So we retain that?

Yes, absolutely. If they didn't settle, we would retain the deposit. And we've applied that deposit to the reduction of debt.

And the building?

And the building. We can resale the building.

Okay. So that would be a win then.

That's one way of looking at it.

And then you've got the other extension and we then sell the building and make a loss. We've got specific performance to sue them for that loss again plus cost. So you've got -- as Mark mentioned, we've got a 20% deposit, which was well negotiated. So you would basically come to -- you got the situation where if we didn't sell it for $65 million, whatever is outstanding, you can sue them for specific performance. But then, if they hadn't settled, you got a question whether they have got any more money in the tool to chase them again, but it's...

Or could they even exist?

[indiscernible].

Well, they exist now. Presumably, if they didn't settle that is because they didn't exist anymore.

That's an assumption you can make, yes.

I think we're lucky that there was a contract on [indiscernible] really looking at because it does mean we'll be getting this money to offset costs. And at the same time, that's been so much work going on. That's beyond.

It's not a bad time to have no debt. Yes, sir.

My name is [indiscernible]. So I invest in different property shares, too. And fortunately, this is only my small minor investment. And I do compare to my other portfolio too, for example, I do hold KPG, Kiwi Property Group, and I also look at other property shares listed on. And I mean, I have to say, unfortunately, this is the one that probably do the worst maybe. And then they have to put the dividend on hold. And I mean, in comparison, for example, I find like KPG despite having the same challenge, have done much better. And there are some things that -- some questions that I've been thinking of, for example, how have the manager and Board of Director perform compared to the average mum-and-dad investors in order to justify the salary they are receiving. And have they consider a pay cut. And also -- also, yes...

Okay. Thank you. So the -- so if I can start with the manager, our -- the fees we pay to the manager are the subject of an agreement, a contract between ourselves and the manager. So -- and as we've just said, those fees rise and fall with the success or failure of the business. So as the portfolio has decreased in size, those management fees have fallen and management are incentivized, therefore, to grow the assets in order to increase their fee levels. So there is nothing -- we have not attempted to negotiate the managers' fees. And -- is the answer to your question. Secondly, in terms of the Board fees, I think, well, the Board fees are the same as they were in 2018 when there were a number of changes to the Board. So that's 6 years ago. They haven't been changed in that period. And it's my understanding, Carol may be able to elaborate. My understanding that the fees hadn't changed in the 3 years before that. Carol, is that...

The fee for the Board is the same.

The Board -- the fee is the same for the Directors. So the Directors' fees have been the same at least since 2015. And so no, they haven't come down, but they haven't gone up either.

Sorry. It was said on a per-meeting basis?

Not per meeting basis.

No, That's an annual pool. So the annual pool is $300,000. It's in your papers. And if we had 10 directors or we had 2, that's the available pool. That doesn't mean we have to spend it. But currently across the Directors that we have, we do spend that. And that's been the case, as I say, since I joined the Board in 2018.

Sorry, Chairman, you haven't quite answered the question of how have the manager and the Board of Director perform better or worse or the same compared to average mum-and-dad investor? Is that okay that we...

Do you mean to the -- how have we performed compared to the other companies or compared to mum-and-dads?

No, no. Average mum-and-dad.

Because I'm actually a pretty good dad. So I think I'm an all-right dad. So I've performed okay as a dad?

Well, I mean, you know what I'm talking about, right? I mean, for example, the average investor, I mean, I try not to complicate it now, but I hope you get my point, right?

Well, I think, in terms of comparing us to other property funds, the share price would suggest that we had not performed as well as the other property funds. I think there are a number of reasons for that. One is scale. We're smaller. We are exposed to a smaller number of properties. We have a high vacancy rate, which will continue until the 30th of November. So there are a number of reasons that set us aside from some of the others that you mentioned. But come 30th of November, we will also be the only one that doesn't have any debt and that is sitting on cash. Does that answer your question?

Not quite. I'm thinking about not only because -- well, I mean, well, you mentioned about the comparison to other property companies, which is good. I mean, that's what I tried to tell to before I started to ask the question, but I'm talking about compared to ordinary investor and the general -- I mean, like the general noncorporate person, for example, the ordinary people, ordinary investors, how are you guys better than them?

So you mean in terms of ordinary investors just going out and investing in other things. Is that what you're referring to?

I mean even in property, for example, compared to properties...

No. Well, other investors in properties, some of them will have done okay. Some of them will have had a hiding in the last 3 years, right? So that's just the state of the market. And largely, it probably depends at the moment on how much debt people are carrying as to whether they've navigated the last 2 or 3 years well or whether they've had some difficulty in doing so. So we are just one of many property investment opportunities that are available to people, and it's up to them as to what they pursue. That's right. We got there eventually. Are there any -- Luke, do you have any questions?

Yes, we have 7 questions...

Your mic is not working, in case those listening are wondering what's going on.

We have 7 questions, Bruce, and that already answered -- asked in the room. First is from [ Sean Ashby. ] It has been repeated several times. The current level of inquiry from leasing space is somewhat muted, how many actual inquiries have been made? Or is somewhat muted actually nonexistent.

No, it's nonexistent. Every month's Board meeting, we do have new tenants come on our radar. And some of those tenants get to the point of inspecting the building and sometimes receiving a proposal from us, others as a result of the conversation as would normally be the case, don't go any further. But at every Board meeting, including the one that we've had earlier today, new tenants are landing on the schedule, and we're trying to make them work.

Another question from Sean Ashby. With the settlement of Graham Street, do you foresee the chances of a dividend or special dividend being paid out as a possibility prior to the divestment of Munroe Lane.

As we said in the reports earlier, the payment of dividends is something that we, including a special dividend, is something that we will consider as part of the process once 35 Graham Street has settled. We haven't made any commitment in that regard one way or the other at this point, but it's clearly one of the options that we have.

Question from [ Gary Carlton. ] Can the Board consider taking the company private to avoid having to meet listing requirement costs such as the climate report?

We haven't discussed that. So that's about the only answer I can give you at the moment. We haven't given that any thought at all at the moment.

Question from Sean Ashby. In retrospect, do you see the purchase of the land and development of Munroe Lane in the primary form of offices as a poor decision for the company?

You're probably asking the wrong guy, Sean, because I just don't think you can go back in time. We made the decision that we made at the time that we made it on its merits at the time. And Graham Street was no different. We made the decision on Graham Street when there was a shortage of second tier office space in the city. And time moves on and circumstances change. So I think looking back and trying to change things after the event is pointless really.

Another question for Sean, is Munroe Lane all on one certificate of title?

Stephen, I think it is? Yes.

Yes. Well, sorry. It's actually on 2, but they're bound together as 1. Yes, as a technicality.

Final question from Sean. Is Mansons Group a potential purchaser for Munroe Lane?

We have not put Munroe Lane on the market at this time. The Board has not made the decision to sell it. We have clearly telegraphed for some time now that selling the building ultimately is one of the options that we have.

Just to add to that, Bruce. Mansons are developers, not passive investors. So it would be highly unlikely that they would look at Munroe Lane.

And a final question from [ Dean Hall, ] which has been answered with most of the other questions to that, but we will include it. Once the property is fully tenanted, does the Board have a plan to sell the property and wind up the company with a return of capital to shareholders?

I think we've answered that with our previous comments. Thank you. Is that everything? Are there any more questions from the floor? The one down the front.

Yes. Just as an investor, I've just noticed that there's only -- well, obviously, you got your medical centers going into green lane with [ Terry Calkin. ] That's all successful. It was up and down for a while there, but that has become a medical hospital by the green lane roundabout. But I'm just thinking of one of the things that's really booming in the world is tech. And it continues to boom, and it will continue to accelerate to boom, which is like NVIDIA, which share price 5 years ago is like $1 and now it's like $1,200, Amazon is still going up and sort of flatlining with a threat from Temu and the Chinese companies, Alibaba, et cetera. So have you thought about like Amazon or -- and another thing that New Zealand is very -- a safe country and it's a distant country, so that alludes to like data centers and there's a lot of data centers that are coming in, and that's booming in New Zealand at the moment, and there's huge ones being built around the country. So have you thought about data centers? I don't know if it's -- obviously, you need fences and cameras and things like that, and it usually needs to be stand-alone with a separate power supply and that sort of things that may not be a data center, but there's servers that need to be allocated. So a data center has to be secure and that sort of thing, but it could be a data center.

Yes. So all of those options have been canvassed. Most of those companies, the Amazons, the Microsoft, et cetera, they operate worldwide through the big real estate groups. And all of those big real estate groups who might represent those companies are in our leasing -- in our broader leasing team. And so the team from Colliers, Bayleys, CBRE, Barfoot & Thompson, those organizations and their leasing teams tend to represent those tenants when the tenants decide to come to New Zealand. So we think we're canvassing all of that as well as we can.

Yes. Because you're involved in ING and Symphony Group. I remember your father quite well, Peter. We chased corporation and all that sort of thing, playing the share market batting in the '80s. So you might have connections there with your father, Peter, and with ING and Symphony Group and all those sort of connections, I don't know, which can interface to your Bayleys and those larger companies. I don't know if you could leverage your relationships because most of business, especially the Chinese, it's all about relationships. So if you've got good relationships, you're usually quite successful in the life.

I think, I'm happy for Mark to speak to himself for himself. But...

Yes, I mean, look, leveraging relationships is something we do every single day, yes. As for my father, probably the only thing he can get you is the tea time and a golf club, to be honest. But our relationships through the real estate networks, as Bruce has mentioned, are as good as anybody. So to circle back to your question, data centers, yes, we're familiar with -- very familiar with what's happening in data centers. This building isn't particularly appropriate for a data center, certainly not one of the large format ones that you have referred to. There is some new technology, which Centuria actually has invested in Australia, which looks to backfill smaller office spaces with a new data center technology, but it doesn't, it's not thousands of square meters. It might be hundreds. So that's something we've definitely got on our radar as well.

Yes. Look, even if it's like a data center.

Yes. Well, as I said, it's not -- this building is not appropriate for a large-scale data center. They don't cohabitate.

Server farm or...

So we are across that, yes.

But I can assure you that every single person at this table has pretty good relationships across the real estate sector, and those relationships are being pushed as hard as we did push them on this particular one, so...

I know Ben Cook, he sold out $100 million of investments and he's moving to Australia. He's done extremely well, Ben Cook. We knew the parents of Ben. So he's a highly successful guy. One of the fastest-growing rich lister. I think, in 2014, he bought $24 million property down the road here. So he's done really well.

Good on him.

Yes, it's interesting, but it's invested in supermarkets and metro stations and stuff like that, which I think...

I think he's also selling a few, but we'll put that to a side.

He is selling everything and he is going to Sydney, yes.

Are there any other questions from the floor? Luke, you got another one?

We do have one. I think it was answered earlier, but it was asked again. So we'll just put it there, so he can hear the answer. What is the profit outlook assuming no new leases for the year, 31 March '26, do you have a forecast?

31 March '26. No, we don't have a forecast this time. And we haven't -- as Simon said, we haven't given guidance on any of that.

Are you actually dropping the price?

Dropping the price of what -- just grab the mic.

My name is Will, I'm a bit deaf. Are you actually lowering the price to get...

Well, as I said, we are as aggressive as anybody in the market in terms of the nature of the deal that we would cut for a tenant to come in or any tenants to come into the business, into the property.

Does the Board have the ability to do that without going back to the shareholders?

Yes, we do.

You do.

Yes. And we -- there are some very aggressive deals that have been done in the market by some of the developers of the newer properties, for example.

Shouldn't we do that?

Well, the tenants we have spoken to, it hasn't fallen over because of price. And if it gets to a point where it's at risk of falling over because of price, that's the time for us to look at it and say, are we prepared to do this, right? But it hasn't fallen over because of price to my knowledge on any of the tenants that was negotiated with.

So you're comfortable at this price?

Yes. And as I said, we've got an $11.9 million provision for incentives around incentives and fit-outs and so on for the remaining space to invest to get a tenant. So I think we're being as aggressive as we dare to be, but it's a good suggestion.

We're not losing clients though because of price?

No.

[indiscernible] at the end of the day, it's what it is.

Yes. Well, you...

And then we've got no debt, I mean...

Absolutely.

As long as the lease isn't for 20 or 30 years.

Well, that's a good thing about the council lease and you have full credit to Stephen and the team. A 15-year lease with the council. That's a pretty nice underwrite for the building. We've just got to fill the rest of the space before we get to say it's a successful development. Luke, have you got anything else?

No, just final comment from Sean Ashby saying I would like to take the opportunity to thank the Board for managing the portfolio well through the fastest increase in OCI and increase in interest rates in New Zealand industry.

You forgot about wages, but thank you, Sean. We appreciate your comment. Is there any other questions? If not, we will move on to the resolutions. And as you know, we have 3 resolutions. And so one is in respect of the auditors, which I will get to later. The first 2 are in respect to the reelection of Board members. Resolution 1 relates to the reelection of Allen Bollard. And just as a reminder, resolutions are ordinary resolutions and they require 50% majority of the votes cast to be in favor of the resolution. And as I said, Resolution 1 is that Allen Bollard, Robert Allen Bollard, be reelected as a Director of the company. And before you vote, I'd just like to invite Allen to say a few words and on his own behalf.

Thank you. I really like speaking on my own behalf, but good afternoon, everybody. Look, it's been a pretty bumpy ride and it's bumpier for us than it is for you because you are relying on us. There's an enormous amount of work that's gone into this company. There's not a single decision in our past that I could look back on and, say, we did wrong at the time. It's just unfortunate that our reinvestment program ran into a thing called COVID, which created -- well, let me put it another way, our government's procedures for dealing with COVID produced absolute turmoil in this country and has led to a protracted and quite severe impact on the office property market, in particular. Our reinvestment program involved 2 office properties, so bad luck. Could never have predicted it. But I've listened -- I'm always interested to listen to your questions, and most of them seem to be along the lines of have we done everything that we could have done to optimize shareholder value in the conditions in which we find ourselves. And I can give you an absolute assurance that from where I sit, we have. And I'm absolutely committed to moving on and finishing the job and continuing to give it all of my energy to make sure that we get the best outcome that we can from the circumstances in which we find ourselves. And that will involve any of the various strategies that Bruce has alluded to and Stephen during the course of this afternoon. So take me or leave me. Thank you.

Thank you, Allen. Are there any questions for Allen? Any comments or questions? If not, we'll move on to -- we will vote on all of the resolutions at the end if you allow me just to present them all, and then we can vote on them all. Yes. Sorry. You're right. Well, hang on. We'll get the mic so the people online can hear you. Thank you.

Hello, Allen. I strongly agree with you regarding the previous -- the policy failure of the previous government regarding the unnecessary lockdown. But because you brought that into this time, we are in 2024. And even the previous government ended the lockdown and ended the Vaccine Pass policy a few years ago already. So I'm not too sure why you try to bring that as an argument that is relevant to this.

Okay. Do you want answer that?

Well, we're still feeling the impact of what happened during COVID on the office market. Companies are -- many companies are still desperately trying to get their employees back into their office. Many others are deciding on a permanent reduction in staff, as we've seen from a prominent company recently. So office space or the demand for office space is very uncertain amongst our potential tenants. And more likely than not, it is contracting for most of them. So demand is low and it's uncertain. It makes it very, very difficult to get leases away to the type of tenant that, that involves. So I hate blaming COVID for things. But in this case, it's an absolute reality and it's still having a major impact on the office market, major. And I work across a number of different property portfolios, and they're all suffering from the same thing. That's not peculiar to Asset Plus. It's a major issue.

Thank you, Allen. Are there any other questions in respect of Allen? If not, we will move on to Resolution 2, which is the reelection of John McBain. John, of course, is the joint Chief Executive Officer or Joint Managing Director, I think it is, of Centuria and is based in Sydney. And I'll now invite John to say a few words. John?

Yes. Good afternoon, Bruce. Good afternoon, everybody. I've listened also very carefully to everyone's comments. As a major investor in the fund, no one likes excuses. We are charged with the responsibility of trying to improve the situation. I think the sale of Graham Street was the correct decision. I think the decision by the Board, which I was a full supporter of, to engage with the shareholders and allow them to be -- enter the decision-making in relation to the future to the fund is highly unusual, but entirely appropriate in this situation. You have a backdrop. I mean, we've -- I think we've danced around the situation in New Zealand a little bit. But -- and I'm proud New Zealander, I was born in Hamilton. I spent a lot of time talking to the other shareholders in this group and other businessmen in New Zealand and I spent a lot of time in New Zealand. But the simple fact is New Zealand is coming out of a recession. It's at the highest cash rate in the developed Southern Hemisphere of the world and the country was on to knees. Now in that situation, listing office blocks is next to impossible. Anyone who has a contrary opinion into that, we can help them with some further information. In terms of Centuria's commitment, we have stood by the company the whole time. Our people, Mark and his team, I think, have done a very, very good job and the building we'll lease -- all buildings lease in the end. So whilst we are disappointed we are not able to give you better news, I think the -- and whilst we've got to take on board any constructive criticism or if you have, it's not going to put us off redoubling our efforts to get to in a position where you can make a decision how you want the affairs of the fund managed. So I'm happy to make myself available for reelection. And as Bruce said, if anyone would like to ask me a question. I'm more than happy to respond.

Thank you, John. Are there any questions for John. No, John, I don't know if you can see the room or not, but there are no hands up. Thank you for your words. The third resolution is relatively straightforward in respect of auditor's fees, that the Board be authorized to fix the auditor's fees and expenses from time to time as is normally the case. Are there any questions on that resolution? There being no more questions, I'll repeat the 3 resolutions: Resolution 1 is in respect of the reelection of Allen Bollard, that Robert Allen Bollard be reelected as a Director of the company. Resolution 2, the reelection of John McBain. The resolution reads that John Edward McBain be reelected as a Director of the company. And Resolution 3 in respect of auditors' fees that the Board be authorized to fix the auditor's fees and expenses from time to time. The latter one, of course, is a required resolution under the Companies Act. And so I now formally invite you to vote the resolutions. Now in respect to voting, voting on the resolutions is now conducted by a poll. The share registrar, MUFG Corporate will have provided you with a voting form on your entry to the meeting for those of you who are present and I'll ask you to complete that form now in respect of the shares you represent and in respect of any shareholding that you may be acting as a proxy for and pass the form to the MUFG representative. He will move through the room. For our online participants the instructions on how to vote are on the screen at present and the votes collected will be added to the proxies already received and the results will be compiled by the registrar. The results once available will be published on the Asset Plus website and announced to the stock exchange this afternoon as soon as they become available. So please proceed with your voting and we'll invite the registrars to move through the room and collect the voting papers. [Voting]

Thank you. Everybody collected. Everybody in the room here are done. We trust those of you online, have voted or are in the process of finalizing your vote. We now -- in advance, we collect discussion items under general business. Luke, have we received any notifications of general business.

No general business, Bruce.

None at all. Okay. Well, in that case, I would like to conclude the meeting. Possibly the first Annual General Meeting in history where health advice has been prescribed to the Chairman. So thank you for the health advice, and thanks to everybody for joining us. We do appreciate you coming along, and those of you who have dialed in. I do want to thank the Board. It's sometimes a little bit of a thankless task. So to pull Allen, John, and Carol -- gee, I did that the wrong way. Rounded and I with the woman's name last. But to Carol, Allen, John, and Paul, thank you to the Board for your efforts. And of course, Mark, you and Stephen, and your team at Centuria, Luke and Simon are with us. Thank you for your efforts. It's -- as Allen mentioned, it's hard graft at the moment, and I appreciate the efforts that everybody makes. Finally, to the shareholders, we respect that your investment funds can go anywhere and we appreciate the fact that you're remaining loyal to us in a tough time, and we do appreciate your support. And as I mentioned earlier, we absolutely appreciate you taking the time to be with us today. So thank you. And on that note, I declare the meeting closed and wish you all a great afternoon, and you're welcome to join us for afternoon tea, if you wish. Thank you.