Atalaya Mining Copper, S.A. (ATYM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and welcome to the Atalaya Mining Plc Q3 2024 Financial Results Investor Presentation. [Operator Instructions] Before we begin, I'd like to submit the following poll. I'd now like to hand you over to CEO, Alberto Lavandeira. Good morning to you, sir.

Good morning. Thank you very much, [ Alejandro ]. We are here to review the financial results of the last quarter, Q3 and year-to-date. Thanks, everybody, for being here. Most of the production numbers have been presubmitted, so I'm not going to be reading all the numbers, as they have been already announced. But it's worth saying that production levels of copper have been similar, a little bit better than previous quarter, 11,900 tonnes, and year-to-date, 34,000 tonnes. And what I think is the highlight of this quarter is that the all-in costs were EUR $3.39 (sic) [ $3.29 ] and $3.26 year-to-date, so slightly higher than previous years. And other than that, the production and everything has been quite consistent with previous months. As a result of this production, our EBITDA was around EUR 17 million and EUR 53 million year-to-date. And we remain in a good cash position and a good net cash position because we have been able to generate cash flow while we maintain, under control our investments. Let me go through the graphs, which are much easier to explain and to show you, and then we can advance also a little bit what have been our -- the developments of the company during this quarter, which have been lots, and how we're going forward. So the first graph shows the tonnes that we have processed, which means the plant has been performing well and actually has reached almost a record level since we started up around 5 years ago. This has, in some way, compensated other things that were not that good because we had very good or decent copper recovery, similar to the previous quarters, and production was slightly better than previous quarters at 11.9. So the reason of this lower production basically is, although we had more tonnes, similar recovery, we had low grade treated, 0.33% of copper, which I will explain a little bit what's the reason for that and how these things are going to be changing in the future. As a result of that, our sales were slightly lower than the previous quarter simply because we had slightly lower copper prices. Of course, that translates immediately into EBITDA and also immediately the same thing in a net cash position. As you can see, the lowering in revenues, EBITDA and cash has been basically the same. So we still maintain a good working capital position, slightly lower than what we had 9 months ago, but still very comfortable and quite good after having invested a significant amount of money. I think the high -- the good point here is to show the operating costs. The operating costs for the 3 -- for the 9 months have been EUR 195 million, which is almost identical to the EUR 195 million that we had in the previous year. This means that, since we have been treating a little bit higher tonnage through the plant at around over 12 million tonnes, almost 12 million tonnes, of material through the plant, it means that our costs per tonne have been EUR 16 -- a little bit less than EUR 16.1 per tonne versus EUR 16.7 per tonne the previous year. This has implications. What does it mean? It means that we have controlled very well the inflation. So some things have been going down like diesel and like price of balls and, of course, the energy. And by treating more tonnes and keeping our fixed costs down, we have been able to maintain the cost per tonne at operations. And why is this important? Well, because, at the end, our costs are driven by 2 things. First is the cost of operation per tonne. Second is the -- what copper you produce, which is a result of recovery and grade. Recovery has been maintained more or less, okay, while grade has gone down. And this is important because we believe, and we are seeing it already, that we are going to be getting better grades, which means that, with better grades, having control on the cost per tonne, we'll see lower costs per pound, which is what matters. The cost per pound that we have got is around $3.26 per pound, which is slightly higher than the guidance that we had, about $0.01, but we believe that, in this quarter we are right now, the fourth quarter, it's going to be lower because we are seeing better grades. So we will be within the guidance and still well under control. So looking a little bit more into the details of the mining, you will see that the mining costs have been going up, like the processing costs have been going up, and the other side is going up. But if you make the calculation, you will see that this is directly -- exactly directly linked with the lower production. So when you multiply this by the pounds produced and divide it by the tonnes, you will see that this has been quite constant, as I said before. This is what we can control. What's out of our control, the only part, is off-site costs. And you will see 2 things there, that the freight transport and things which are related to the metal produced, so they are not linked with the grade basically of our production, have been kept quite constant. But you will notice, and that's something that has happened already in the previous quarter, that we have a very large byproduct credit, which is basically $0.37. It's almost more than 4x what we had in the past. And this is that -- this is part of our controls, is because we are blending in some higher-grade silver ore that goes through the plant. It's a very soft ore. It doesn't contain copper, but it contains very high -- very good grades of silver. And since the silver is -- we can recover most of it, it means that our concentrates used to have 60 grams of silver per tonne of concentrate and, right now, they are having around 3x higher, 180. So by doing this, we lower a little bit the grade of the concentrate, because we are introducing more pyrite, which doesn't have the silver, but we are well compensating the off-site costs, which are reduced by over almost, call it, $0.20. And overall, this results in a benefit for the company. Actually, the byproduct credits are over [ 15 ] million, if I remember well, in this first 9 months. So this is a good thing. So let's say that we are going through an area with a lower grade of the mine, lower grade in Cerro Colorado, which was more or less known, but we are compensating that a little bit with the silver credits. All-in, the rest of things are quite in line. We are keeping our overheads well in line and all the rest of the things, sustaining capital and corporate costs well under control, even lower than it used to be in the past. With that, compared to peers, we always benchmark with peers, we are slightly higher than the last 4 quarters, 5 quarters, but well within the range that we have always been in this last, let's say, couple of years. Guidance for '24, we are maintaining it to be -- it looks like we are going to be treating the tonnes at the plant in the high range. The grade is expected to be slightly higher in the last quarter, and it's going -- has been higher. So we will be probably in the low range of the guidance of around 45,000 tonnes of copper as a result of that and slightly in the high range in the C1 cost and in the all-in cost. We always report all-in costs. And we are in the low range in sustaining development, basically development of San Dionisio. And there is a reason for that. And the reason is that we are seeing better costs in mining. So it means that we are not spending as much in San Dionisio as needed, and also the fact that we had this delay. The delay in the permitting is also slightly lower than we had anticipated. I will talk about this thing on the permitting in a second. So now going back to the -- what we have been doing in this quarter, finally, we have seen the connection of the solar plant. The solar plant is finally connected, is ready to connect to the grid -- so not to the grid. It's connected to our grid. It's still not producing because we need kind of a stamp from the electric company to connect, but this is something that we expect either this week or next week, maximum. It is the official, let's say, paper. That's all. But everything is done and approved. And finally, we have got this out of the way. I remind you that this thing is going to provide around 22% of our electricity needs in the future. And this will also be a further reduction of cost in the future, in 2025 and beyond. San Dionisio, we have flagged the delays of the permitting process because we incurred in a different process, permitting process, than we had anticipated in the beginning of our plans. But actually, we are not going bad when we compare it to the revised plan. The authorities have allowed us to go and to mine a pit, interim pit, which is providing the ore. You can see it's quite advanced. And we have already gone through the most complicated and lengthy part of the process, the permitting process, which is the public information, like the public information period. And this thing has gone through with minimum allegations, actually almost nothing. And we are very confident we will be getting the environmental permit of San Dionisio at the end of this year or maximum in January. So -- and without any problems at all. So for me, the possibilities of not getting the permit of San Dionisio is -- are absolutely 0. I mean I don't think it will be any problem at all. And of course, the idea here is to blend higher grade, which we are already starting to blend with this interim pit, and be able to get higher grades combined with the grades of Cerro Colorado. In Masa Valverde, we have been also doing a lot of work with 1 rig drilling some deeper stuff. The plan we have here is to start to ramp. We're waiting for some final paperwork and buying some land of the portal. The plan is to start a ramp, develop a ramp, in '25, early '25. And we have not provided the information of what we're going to mine here. But if you look at previous press releases, you will see that the area of Masa Valverde contains an area that has around 2% copper drilled from surface with true thickness, over 20, 30 meters of thickness. And we are continuing to drill this area to confirm exactly the shape while we get to the ramp. So that will be our first focus, to try to get to a high copper area to be able to blend in our installations. It's clean copper without any other metal. So we've been quite active in that front. In E-LIX, although I'm always disappointed for the lack of or the speed of progress, I realize that this is a very difficult and very different process. It's encouraging, the pictures that I'm showing right now. For those of you that are familiar with the treatment of copper concentrates with chalcopyrite, you probably know that leaching copper chalcopyrite is extremely difficult, if not almost considered impossible. And you can see that it has been -- has been done in this few months, producing a copper precipitate, which is this thing kind of green-blue in the center, zinc precipitate in white, and really [ solving ] these 2 precipitates use copper cathodes and zinc cathodes. So this is with a new plant, which is working, although with lots of commissioning issues. Commissioning issues only relate to the lack of experience of operators or [ peaking ] issues or problems sometimes with the filter, typical commissioning things. And since it's a totally new method with totally new people and something that basically needs to be developed, it sometimes, once in a while, gets issues with the production, continuous production, but has been working for some weeks, on a continuous basis, leaching copper zinc concentrates or copper with zinc concentrates. Why is this important for us? I mean, it's not essential. We are not in a rush. We are quite patient. Of course, I'm a little bit disappointed with the lack of speed. But this is very important because I don't think leaching copper concentrates, clean copper concentrates, will be economic due to the very low prevailing treatment charges in the market today. As you know, treatment charges with clean concentrates are -- the benchmarks are being set very low. And with that, no -- there's no way anybody can beat the conditions given by smelters. You can sell almost everything to the smelters. But in the area of San Dionisio deeps and in some parts of Masa Valverde and some of the deposits that we've been drilling, we have not announced resources yet, we have complex sulfides, which have a low -- a mix of copper and zinc. Based on the test work that we have done and historically was done at San Dionisio and San Antonio, the recoveries assumed in our PEA. in our studies, were 58% copper and 75% zinc. With those, it probably was very economic. But using the system, E-LIX, we are able to get a high bulk concentrate of around 85% recovery for both, and then leaching over 90% for copper and zinc, which means we will get between 15 and 20 points higher recovery for these type of concentrates. And that's why we see this is very important. So we see the system works. We now need to fine-tune to make sure it works continuously. And of course, it is economic. Otherwise, if it's not economic, we will have to find the right concentrate to be able to make it economic. But I'm quite encouraged to see that this thing has been working in continuous ways, even with all the hiccups of problems with filters, problems with [indiscernible] and things like that, which are really nothing to do with the principle of E-LIX, which is what's very difficult to reproduce. Touro, without any question, is the value driver of this company is the next thing. So I have been having lots of meetings in Galicia with lots of people attending and big support from the local communities. What I'm pleased to report is that all the papers are finished and ready for the public information, which actually is only waiting for the Official Gazette to have a space to be published and that we have absolutely no position. So I'm quite confident that we will be getting the public information consultation through during this year, before the year end. And at the same time, the next steps are that the administration will have to prepare the sectorial reports, which will be prepared at the same time we are in public information. And in the first few months of '25, we believe we are going to be getting a positive environmental impact declaration, which is the key step before development of this project. And we still see this thing happening during the first half of 2025 from all our conversations that we are having. As you know, the Xunta de Galicia, the local government, has declared this project of strategic interest, which means they -- by law, they set a 1-year time frame period to give you the authorizations, which would be given -- I don't remember, I think it was the first part of June. I think this is an excellent thing. I have an additional thing that is not mentioned here, which is redomiciliation. It has taken a long time. We are already in the Main Market. But finally, we have the final hearing of a local court in Cyprus, which should be something very short and very simple to, let's say, give the final authorization with all the papers, blessings and everything. It's already preset for the first days of December. And with that, also in another 10 days or 2 weeks, we should be able to have a full domicile in Spain. The effect of that is that, in the next revision of the index in the Main Market, which will happen around March, for sure, we will have all these papers ready, and we would be able to be included in the index, which also, we believe, is going to improve a lot the liquidity of the company. So things are progressing well. Of course, we have this disappointment of higher costs due to the lower production, not unexpected, but we were, I would say, quite effective in being able to control those costs in the circumstances. So with that 20 minutes, I think I can go into the question-and-answer.

Thank you very much for the presentation. [Operator Instructions] Just while the company takes a few moments to review the questions that have been submitted today, I'd like to remind you that a recording of this presentation, along with a copy of the slides and published Q&A, can be accessed via the Investor dashboard. As you can see, we have received a number of questions throughout today's presentation. Alberto, if I can just hand back to you to read out the questions and give responses where it's appropriate to do so, I'll pick up with you both at the end.

Excellent. Thank you very much. I will start with one, which is in Spanish, but I will read it in English. What is the current situation and expectations on the future for E-LIX? This is in Spanish I mentioned before, right now, what they are doing is treating material copper concentrates. Actually, we are treating copper-zinc concentrates. Concentrates, we have around 12% copper and around 10% zinc. So basically, it's a bulk concentrate coming from a mix of San Dionisio and Cerro Colorado. And they are treating it in continuous -- continuously and producing precipitates, which are later releached and produce copper cathodes and zinc cathodes. Right now, I would say they are going at half of the capacity of the design of the plant simply because there's lots of stops, stops related to -- not to the lithium system, but basically the Darwinian system or filters or simply typical commissioning issues. What's the future? The future, I would say, is next year should be self-sufficient. The plant should be working, producing positive cash flow and with the right feed. The right feed could be copper-zinc or a copper-zinc to remove the zinc only and we leave the copper. This is still -- this is not decided, and it will depend on the economic results of each of the tests. When will -- the next question is, when will the grades increase? Or is 33% the new normal of the existing mine? No, no, it's not the new normal. The reserves grades are higher than that, around 0.37%, without including San Dionisio and also without including some new areas that we have been drilling, which could extend the mine life of Cerro Colorado, the existing pit. So I don't know. The grades will go up, will go up without even mixing San Dionisio. But this is -- whoever checks the production plans that were in the PA, you will see that, during '24 -- '23 and '24, we were going through a low-grade period. Actually, the plan at that time, the PA, was to produce 50,000 tonnes of copper in this year. But it's true that we were expecting to blend San Dionisio already more in 2024. And due to these delays of permits, we have not been able to blend as much as we wanted. The next question is, will the byproduct silver positive contribution to all-in costs be recurrent going forward, or is it just one-off this year? It will go a little bit beyond this year and the next year, but it will not be forever. So it will be 1 year, 2 years maximum, as far as I know. The next question is, will you give us more color about ore grade evolution entering '25? Should we expect a production above 50,000 tonnes next year? Any official time line for Touro project? We have not given high guidelines of -- for '25 yet. But yes, we expect it to be higher than this year. Yes, I think we'll be in the range of 50,000 plus, from preliminary plans. And the official plans for Touro are going to be, during this year, I think we'll see the public information anytime. What I mean any time is we are waiting for the publication in the Daily Official, let's say, the Official Gazette of Galicia, with all the papers already submitted and everything signed. During this period, we will get the reports from the -- all the departments from the Xunta, which have been already positive, to declare it strategic. So we don't expect a problem there. After that, we will have a period of receiving the allegations and answering them, which will happen likely in January and mid-February. And from there on, it's time for them to issue the declaration, which I think it can happen sometime at the end of the first quarter or about. Of course, that's what I believe. But in theory, they have until the end of May or something like that in order to give us the full permits. And so far, the indication is that everything is going according to schedule. The next question, have the mining operations or exploration works been adversely affected by heavy rain and flooding in Spain in recent months? No, nothing happening in this area. Well, we had a lot of rain, a typical wet season, autumn. But 3 years ago, we had a drought, and we were very worried about not having enough water in tailings. Now we are okay with water and we have enough, but we didn't have any problems at all. The same -- there's another question, similar, weather events in Spain, the way they impact Atalaya Touro, potential areas in Spain you consider investing in? We continue to -- there's no effect in operations, as I said. And we continue to invest in exploration in the southern part of -- the whole [indiscernible], exploration there with no special news there. And we are considering investing in -- let's say that we -- there may be some news of investing in new areas of exploration, but we have not made them public yet. Spain is a world leader in renewable energy, and secondly, Europe installed renewable capacities, wind and solar. Will Atalaya consider continuing growing solar plant, 50 megawatts? A second plant would be much easier and quicker. One of -- we are considering the possibility of building, longer term, a very large plant, but this is something totally independent of the existing one. We are looking at installing a new tailings plant and having then space in the existing tailings for 400 hectares, very close to a substation. So that's something that's being contemplated, the possibility of installing a huge, large solar plant in this area with other things. So that's something that we are considering, but a totally separate business related to the mining. The next question is post mining Atalaya, the next 20 years, Spain is a leading destination of data centers, a massive investment over the next decade, Microsoft, EUR 6 billion; Blackstone, EUR 7 billion, Amazon, EUR 16 billion. Atalaya has clean energy, land infrastructure. We look at this. Actually, this is exactly my point. My point before is that we are very close to an area where we can install a very good solar with also a good possibility of wind in the area and connect it to a grid that -- we have basically clean water. We have all the ingredients. So it's something that we're looking at, and we are -- actually we are talking about all this with an expert on these installations. The next question is, Alex, given how long it has taken engineers in Atalaya, will you renegotiate the current deal? Would this be a fair move? Well, let's say that yes, that we have already given kind of a deadline to the owners that any money will come with equity and participating of this. And yes, I think, in the future, we may have a little more participation than we have had in the past. The next question is, after updating Touro, when do you think you will start operations there? This is, realistically, when do you think you will be able to sell copper from Touro site? If things go as expected or what we are seeing of having permits by midyear after environmental permit mid-first half and then full permit midyear, we will be ready to produce -- to be in production of concentrates before the end of '26. There will be 15 to 18 months of construction. We have already the team, the financing, quietly -- quite advanced, identified all the equipment, the long lead items, everything. So I think we will be able to sell copper at the end of '26 or maximum beginning of '27. Touro officially said when, how soon could it be approved and how soon could it start working, well, first production? I think it's the same question before. I think it's in -- I think it will be approved. Environmental -- the first thing is environmental impact declaration, which normally happens 3 months or 4 after the public information. And then the approval of the project follows around 2 months, simply to prepare the papers, to put the conditions of the environmental impact statement. The next is, can you please explain why profit and earnings per share is so much lower this quarter since EBITDA is comparatively only a bit lower? I think it's probably a matter of depreciation, which is higher. And to be honest, I don't know exactly why the depreciation is higher, because that's the only reason. I don't know if this is correct, and maybe Cesar can check it in the meantime. I think this is the main reason.

Yes, [indiscernible] all the items that we have paid out of EBITDA basically. Yes.

Okay. What is the timing expected for Touro permits, final authorization, construction, project CapEx, risk of delays? It's what I said before. It's -- I think I've answered that one. It's, midyear, have final authorization, construction 15 to 18 months. And CapEx is around EUR 250 million. The risk of delays are basically linked with getting or not the permits. I don't think the plant -- plant is quite simple, very similar to what we have installed and actually much better because it's with new equipment. Are you still looking for possible acquisitions? In the past, you have been -- you said prices have all been realistic. Has the climate changed in overseas Europe? Well, let's say that we are looking at something in Europe, which is in advanced exploration, and it's in Europe, and reasonable costs. What are the difference in processing silver recovered from processing copper and zinc? Nothing, nothing special. Simply, right now, the silver that we have recovered in the concentrates is simply because it floats, but it's in a material that has very low copper. So it's a very soft material. It's an enriched area. So we put that through the plant. It goes into the copper concentrates without any change in the process itself. Do you think there's still a lot of copper to be found in Spain, and will the government let you mine it? Well, yes, the government here in -- specifically in Andalusia is very, very proactive and pro-mining. We don't have any issues. Maybe people will perceive the delays in San Dionisio, but the reality is that mines are permitted. We get full support and things go much faster than in other countries. So yes, the government will allow us to mine it. In the case of other -- of copper in Spain, well, the Pyrite Belt is the best place. And of course, there's much more in the Touro area. And I think things will improve a lot once they start producing in Touro because they will see a very nice mine. The next question, also related to Touro, in the case of Touro, how easy is it to construct once the permits are received? Are you looking to financing sources for this project? It's quite easy to construct. It's very similar to what we have done in the past. Basically, it's a SAG mill, a ball mill for recycling and flotation and filtering, very similar to what we have done with the same people. So it's -- I don't see a problem. Looking at financing sources, yes, we have been already dealing with local banks in Spain in several cases. We have also been looking at -- and we had lots of interest shown by offtakers, traders and smelters to give us -- and also some -- even some local companies interested to put some money into the crowd at project level. So we don't think financing will be a problem here. When would the higher-grade ore start to be blended in San Dionisio? What will be the grade uplift? Well, it depends on how much we blend. We are looking at blending around 20% at this stage, which, if you blend something with 0.35% with something with around 0.7% or 20%, it will give you -- the grade will be around 0.4% to 0.42%, which is a significant increase if you consider 16 million tonnes treated. Do you have any intention to continue Atalaya as a stand-alone or independent business for the long term? How do you plan to fight the hostile offer given you no longer have a poison pill in your Article of Association? That's a good question. Well, it's quite difficult to fight a hostile takeover, but I don't think there will be any hostile offer considering that we have 2 or 3 shareholders that together get almost 50% of the company. So we have Trafigura with 22%, Cobas, I think, is now 17%, and a few other Spanish shareholders and insurance companies, which, together, you can get another easily, let's say, 15% with 3 or 4 hands. So I don't think any hostile will have any success if these people which own -- which have basically 60% -- over 60% of the company do not think that the price is correct. Do you have any thoughts on the process of [indiscernible]? Well, it's interesting that we are only looking in the distance because, obviously, if that thing is successful, it will show a big, huge interest in the Pyrite Belt. And obviously, in some way, we will benefit because it also gives a kind of indication of what's the value of -- the real value of Atalaya, which is much higher than it is right now. What is the total amount in capital investment in Touro in production? Around EUR 250 million. Can you update us -- next question, Atalaya ranking ESG, some investments were collect invested in '23. Are you starting to see any dividend? Do you -- first off, do you have the ranking that we got from the ESG handy?

Not an actual ranking, but ESG, so we've been doing a lot of it, a lot of documentation, and we have improved quite a lot. Now, when discussing with the rating agency, we have some difficulties contacting with them, as normal. And I can see that some of the rankings are, for example, [indiscernible] decreased the rate, but they didn't even look at the sustainability report that we produced in 2023. So sometimes it's just that we need to engage more with them. And this is something that we're thinking about doing in next year, just to have a little bit more engagement with them, which obviously will have a cost on our side, but it's just to ensure that they go through all the documentation that we have publicly available. But for the time being, I think we're maintaining some of the rating agency to basically download the rate that we have for that. But I don't think that is capturing all the information and all the [indiscernible].

Thank you, Cesar. The next question is, will the dividend policy be reviewed and buybacks considered instead of dividends? It will be better for U.K. shareholders as withholding tax will be applied for dividends -- to dividends after domiciliation to Spain. Well, this is something that has been considered in the past by the Board, the possibility of buybacks, and probably very likely in the future, we'll see a combination of both. Could you please give an update on the development plans for plant upgrades, required process of polymetallic sulphides, CapEx time line, key work items, et cetera? Right now, what we are doing is doing additional test work with different -- we have had 4 or 5 different companies doing works, both in bulk concentrate -- production of bulk concentrate, and production of differential concentrates. The studies that are ongoing are basically to decide if it's better to produce first global bulk concentrate, which later you will grind and separate differentially, or if it's better to have kind of 2 separate lines where we will split the existing plant. And we have that flexibility and have a separate line for polymetallics and another one with [ step-work ]. Right now, that's work ongoing, and CapEx, let's say, very wide range, between [ $50 million and $100 million ]. I don't think it will -- time line for construction of this probably would be '26. And as I say, working on process, we don't have a -- we have, like, 4 years of -- 5 years of only [ step-work ]. So where we don't -- really don't -- it's not essential yet. When talking about potential acquisition, how much room do you think you have available in your balance sheet? How big such an acquisition will be? It depends on how we buy. If we buy with cash, not much. If we buy with shares, I think it depends on the value of the other company. And then where we are looking right now is smaller joint ventures, is small companies, small things where we would go basically to exploration. If we did something that was much larger, the size we have been looking in the past are sizes equivalent to our company, so basically doubling the size. Not -- we are not looking at things of EUR 1 billion -- sorry, EUR 1.5 billion, EUR 2 billion. We're looking at things of between EUR 200 million to EUR 500 million, EUR 600 million -- has always been the case in the past. Okay. That's the last question, 28 questions. That's excellent. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much for answering those questions. Just before redirecting investors for entering their feedback, which I know is particularly important to you both, I was just wondering if you had any closing comments.

Look, closing comments, I think, would be that, yes, we -- this quarter from the economic point of view, has been difficult. We expected that because we had low production. And as I said before, our costs -- or cost per tonne -- and if you produce less, your cost per pound is higher. The good thing is that we have kept the cost per tonne constant. We have been fighting inflation, and we are keeping our debt under control, which has a good result, which means, once we get back the grade, and we will get it because we have always had very good reconciliation in our pits, this cost will go down and we'll continue generating cash flow. The second thing is that we believe that the -- we are just at the beginning of the copper price going up, so we will also see a benefit there. And this benefit will come at the right moment because we believe we are going to have additional production coming from Touro and from the grades -- better grades from Riotinto, and also from the better grades that we may find from the development of Masa Valverde, which probably, in less than 2 years, we'll be able to also bring some ore from there. So I think it's encouraging that we see that the costs are maintained under control and the rest will change in the right moment. I think it's a bad quarter, but we are seeing the end of the tunnel.

Perfect. Alberto, Cesar, thank you for updating investors today. Could I please ask investors not to close this session as you now will be automatically redirected to provide your feedback in order that the management team can better understand your views and expectations. This will only take a few moments to complete, but I'm sure will be greatly valued by the company. On behalf of the management team of Atalaya Mining Plc, we'd like to thank you for attending today's presentation, and good afternoon to you all.