Bachem Holding AG (BANB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome, everybody, to today's Bachem webinar, More Than White Powder And Reports. My name is Daniel Bachmann. I'm a Business Development Manager at Bachem for Oligonucleotides and a previous project manager. I'm your moderator and your host for today's webinar. And with me is Gerrit Buurman, Senior Director of our Global Project Management department. Before we get started, a few comments about housekeeping and disclaimer or disclosure. This session has been prerecorded, but we will be live afterwards for you for the Q&A session. [Operator Instructions]. What are we going to talk today. I'm going to have the honor to share a quick introduction about Bachem and its innovation since more than 50 years and Gerrit is then going to take over for an insight to the current market and how it's changing and then about how our project management is adjusting to it accordingly. So without any further ado, what is Bachem, who is Bachem, we are leading [Technical Difficulty] manufacturing, we are a CDMO contract development and manufacturing organization. We have a clear focus on peptides and oligonucleotides or short tides, and we produce synthetically APIs or drug substances. The way we usually work with our clients is through long-term partnerships, and this is with big pharma companies or with smaller biotechs alike. Our annual sales as of 2022 was CHF 531.7 million. And currently, we are roughly 1,900 colleagues around the globe. Bachem is an entrepreneurial success story, which started in 1971 when Bachem was founded by our founder, Peter Grogg in Liestal town, just next to Bubendorf where we are now. And it didn't take long until 1978 when the first GMP manufacturing was completed. 1987 after successful business in Europe, the expansion started beyond the European market. And in 1998, Bachem was listed at the Swiss Stock Exchange. In 2018, an important date for everybody who cares about oligonucleotides. The strategic decision was taken by Bachem to branch out from a purely peptide manufacturer into oligo manufacturing as well. 2021 was in the first time a major milestone for Bachem hitting sales above CHF 500 million. And shortly after in 2022, the biggest deal ever was signed at Bachem, a CHF 1.2 billion supply agreement over multiple years with a peptide. And this year, 2024, it's also going to be a major year for Bachem. The world's most modern tides production plant is going to go online, our building K basically doubling our capacity. The way we work usually with our clients is in 3 pillars: CMO, CDMO and trailblazing CDMO. What does that mean? On the left-hand side, CMO. This is simply cost-efficient and high-quality, fast manufacturing of drug substances serving the world's need of medicine. In the middle, we have CDMO, we had D the development compartment to it, which means we have more flexibility, more interaction, more collaboration and this is usually applied when we serve our clients need to support rapid approval of new drugs and serve people who are waiting for new indications to cure so far unmet needs and diseases. On the far right-hand side, we have the trailblazing CDMO approach, which is even more collaborative, more flexible, but it also consists the latest technology. So this is going beyond the state-of-the-art and really applying innovation that takes place at Bachem. These compounds then are not necessarily going into clinics or into people as medicine but served as research and diagnostic compounds. And of course, the highly qualified project management team covers all 3 pillars. So it doesn't matter if you shop for a stable supply or if you want to test beyond state-of-the-art technology, the project management team at Bachem is serving all 3 pillars equally. Now before I'm going to start about more innovation, I quickly want to show the comparison between peptides and oligonucleotides. I've introduced in 2018, we branched out in making oligos and I want to focus on the fact that these 2 technologies in manufacturing are very similar. So both are made usually or in standard ways on a solid phase are being cleaved purified through column chromatography and then isolated through lyophilization. So if we talk about expanding our knowledge, our innovation, it usually strongly scales those platforms. And that's what I want to show in my last slide before I'm going to hand over to Gerrit. It's our innovation at Bachem on large-scale manufacturing, allowing to be more sustainable because state-of-the-art technology is with peptides and nucleotide manufacturing highly waste intensive, the PMIs are very high in respect. And so we are under constant count for new technologies to solve this problem. On the peptide front, we offer, for instance, chemo-enzymatic peptide synthesis also molecular hiding, which is basically making peptides in solution. And also, we offer a binary solvent approach for the solid phase peptide synthesis. Equally, on the oligonucleotide side, we try to apply it, what I mentioned peptide technology to make the oligonucleotides synthesis greener. I'm talking about the stirred-bed technology. I'm talking about taking the solid phase out of the packed batch, the standard approach these days. And stir it, as we do it for peptides, allowing for bigger batches, reducing solvents and reducing PMI in respect. Equally to the molecular hiving on the peptide side, we offer [ Pegasys ] a one-pot liquid phase, oligo synthesis staying totally in solution and changing the game going greener. On the purification side for the peptides and the oligonucleotides alike, we apply so-called MCSGP or simpler spoken continuous chromatography. This dramatically reduces the footprint by using less solvents for the chromatography, while often also even increasing the purity and the yields of our API manufacturing. Less green, but equally important is the isolation and the analytics. There's less potential for resource saving, but still, we are very proud at Bachem for this IP, meaning on the peptide side, the aggregate analysis or analytics is something specifically Bachem IP. And on the oligonucleotide side, it's the MS/MS sequencing, which usually allows for full sequence coverage with ease. In both technologies, we use IP technology at Bachem to [ close lie of fixation trips ]. And that's it from my side, thank you for your attention and now, Gerrit, for some market insight and the exciting journey of PM transformation.

Thank you, Daniel, for this kind introduction. I'm very happy to be here and to the audience also a very warm welcome from my side. It's great to have you here in the session today, and many thanks for your interest in Bachem and our services. So you may know from the press that Bachem is undergoing strong growth over the last couple of years. Where does this growth come from? The growth comes primarily from the increasing demand of peptides in the field, in the market. And this is illustrated on this slide here. So historically, peptides were used in the low to medium kilogram range, and there is now increasing application in indications such as diabetes, obesity, or liver disorders such as NASH or cardiovascular indication, which increases the worldwide demand for peptides, not only in the kilogram but all the way up to the tonne scale. And the mechanisms, the molecules behind this growth, GLP-1 receptor agonist associated molecules. There are significant advances in terms of efficacy with the dual and triple agonists. And so these are complex chemical molecules. And again, they are needed in the tonne scale. And this is a substantial and important growth driver for us at Bachem. If we look at the global pharma pipeline, we are even more excited because there are many new molecules in the global pharma pipeline. You can see that on this slide here on the left-hand side for peptides and on the right-hand side for oligos, so more than 1,000 peptides in the global pharma pipeline. Of course, most are in preclinical development, early-stage discovery, et cetera, but half are approaching the clinic or are already in the clinic. So quite a number of molecules that all want to be manufactured, developed and tested in clinical trials. The same with oligos, also here, we counted more than 1,000 oligos in the global pharma pipeline. And our analysis was from November last year, so it's very recent. Here, the proportion of all of early molecules is higher, which is to be expected because oligos is a relatively new drug modality. But as you can see here from this illustration, some are already in Phase I, Phase II or even Phase III and preregistration. So this analysis makes this very exciting because we already have the demand in the marketplace, plus we have new molecules to come. And so we think we have growth -- great growth prospects for the future. In order to meet the global demand, what do we do, where we're expanding our capacities and capabilities. We are building new lines for oligos. We're investing heavily into our existing sites. So we're building new factories, the so-called Building K that we are building in our Bubendorf side, which is a state-of-the-art highly automated building for peptide and oligo manufacturing, and we are expanding further. We have bought a new site near Switzerland. So this is a greenfield approach. And here, we will also build new factories and expand our manufacturing capabilities and capacities by the end of this decade. So lots of growth opportunities here and growing portfolio, new technologies, more production capabilities, so fantastic opportunities. And at the same time, like always, yes, there are exciting challenges such as increasing workforce. We work in a highly regulated environment and the interactions with our customers are complex because of the chemistry because of the regulators. So they have high expectations, and we need and want to meet them. So change all over the place in terms of people, regulations, customer expectations, new factories, new technologies, great time to live in and to be part of Bachem and this growing experience. And we ask ourselves in PM 2 years ago, what do we need to do in order to support the growth aspirations of our companies? Where can we change what is going well, where do we need to improve. And on the following slides, I would like to take you on this exciting journey of PM transformation. We started with a vision, where do we want to go and I will read this vision to you. So transforming PM into a leading and strategic global organization, creating PM value for Bachem and of course, our customers through all product life cycle stages, so from the preclinical stage to the clinic all the way to commercial in a growing and global portfolio of products and services. So leading and strategic and value creation. Key words here in this vision. And so -- we are very structured and analytical project managers. So when we embarked on this journey, we ask ourselves what is our baseline. What is our starting point. And actually, the starting point is pretty good. So we had already 2 regional PM departments, 1 in Europe, the other 1 in the U.S., approximately 30 highly qualified project managers with higher academic degrees in chemistry or biology, pharmacology, broad industry experience, biotechs to big pharma, high cultural awareness. We are very diverse in our global PM team which brings a lot of benefit to our teamwork, broad project portfolio from preclinical to the commercial stage and for information, each project -- each customer project is managed by a specifically assigned project manager. So you may ask, what's the problem? We'd be happy if our CMO or CDMO could provide such a broad and diverse PM department to support our projects. Well, there is no problem, but there was our ambition 2 years ago to become even better to improve to further add value to our customer. So we looked at it -- we wanted to talk to our stakeholders. We did it in a very structured way. So we interviewed 50 colleagues from different functions by applying a questionnaire to make it as objective as possible. We also interviewed some of our customers from small to big scale across different regions. And overall, and that was great to hear, we got very valued and constructive feedback. Many people said, it's great what you do. Please continue, you're supporting us. And they also -- there's no but, but there's an and, they also gave us some recommendations, some suggestions for improvements. And that was great. And this heat map here in the background shows you a key result of our analysis on the left-hand side, the different categories of questions that we ask. And at the bottom, the different functions from business development, to production, quality, regulatory and supply chain. And what you can see here, there are many oranges and greens, indicating yes, people feel we are doing a good job. Things are good as they are or even great, so please continue. So that was a very motivating feedback. But at the same time, we also got this these suggestions for change, which are illustrated here with these red colors. So definitely, food for thought and suggestions where to change. What was also interesting in this analysis, and you may see this already, there was no clear pattern if interviews are sorted by the functional units. So there was no one voice from quality or one voice from production. It was pretty heterogeneous depending on who we talk to, illustrating that we also need to work on managing expectations and what our colleagues expect from PM. And I want to share with you some interview impressions because that's always nice to look at, and it gives you a feeling for this exercise. So I want to start very positively. So someone said, I'm very happy that you guys in PM are so well structured and committed also in comparison to my previous work experience in big pharma. So of course, that went down very well. Then a customer told us the best thing about you guys is that you have a dedicated PM, so some competitors do not do this. So that was great. And the suggestions for change came in the direction of, well, sometimes the PM individual is not really driving the project or we feel that the project team empowerment is not there. Perceived the managers, the directors, the VPs, they need to jump in for decision-making, whereas we want the project teams to be stronger to be empowered. So that was exciting feedback. Some said the interfaces in the company are not always ideal. Sometimes it's working well, sometimes it's not working so well. So we still have some silos. So here, clearly, PM because you guys work cross-functionally, you can clearly add value here. Communication in a project, very important. It's cross-functional. Many people come together to discuss scientific results, to discuss issues, to discuss all the bits and pieces of a complex project. So here, please do pay attention to the content of the style, to clarity and transparency. It's often great, but sometimes it can be improved. Then something I also already touched on regarding expectation management. So there was a feedback defined or the suggestion define what new PM does and does not do and then manage our expectations upfront. So to get to a more homogeneous, let's say, heat map compared to the one you've seen on the slide before. And interestingly, for us and PM was also that sometimes our customers see us or some individual of us more positive than the internal functions. And those of you who work in project management, that may ring a bell. PM, you are in a hot seat. You always torn between the different stakeholders, the different expectations from customers, from internal functions, and that's a pretty challenging job. We love it. We find it exciting. But clearly, it was sometimes felt that, yes, the customers see us more positive than our internal functions, which I would say is very much in the interest of our customers. So we then use the assessment. We used all these results and rolled this into PM transformation and to find 5 areas where we will change, where we need to change. And we pitched that to our C-level, and they endorsed it. This is a great proposal. Please continue on this journey. We are fully supportive. And these changes are shown on this slide. So the first one deals with the mandate of project management and the accountability. The second one with our services. The third one is related to structure. The fourth one to our role of the PM leadership team in the cross-functional governance structure of Bachem and last but not least, changes that are required in the entire organization to support PM transformation because we said clearly in the beginning of our journey, and I think that was a very good expectation management. We are happy to change. We have identified certain areas where we can become even better, that's great to support Bachem's growth. But at the same time, in order to get there, we also need the functions in manufacturing in queue and regulatory to support us because we work in cross-functional teams. We are one team, and we can only be successful together and not in isolation. So that proposal was endorsed by our C level. And it was then communicated. And on the following slides, I will walk you now in more detail through these 5 different changes. I want to start with the mandate. So typically, in a customer project, we have 5 early defined roles. We have a project sponsor who is an internal sponsor, typically Senior Director or VP with quite some experience in the field. We have the project leader who is responsible for managing the team, and we have the project, the individual project team members from the various functions involved from development, manufacturing, quality, regulatory supply chain, et cetera. And so the change here in PM transformation is that we clearly said the project leader is not only coordinating and supporting the project work. He or she is accountable for delivering the project results, responsible for strategic projects steering, for planning, for cost tracking and reporting and several other activities. And very importantly, also responsible for managing the project team, the customer relationship. And he or she is in a role to really foster collaboration. We live in a very complex world. Things are changing all over the place, so we need collaboration to be successful. On the other hand, the project sponsor is now more in a coaching and mentoring role, which is slightly different compared to where we were in the past. So clearly, someone who supports the project team, who is project Champion and who also helps us developing and building the customer relationship. And on the right-hand side, the project team members also very important. Here, we also want to see clearly accountability for delivering the tasks for collaboration and for customer relationship building. So that was the first key change accountability of the project leader for achieving and delivering the project goals. And how do we get there? Well, it all comes with people. You need to have great project managers and you need to develop them into real project leaders and sufficient support from the function, enabling and empowering the project team members. So that's change number one, accountability. Change number two, services. We have all kinds of services in our PM department, from starting a project, kicking it off, preparing and managing project plans, action tracking, documenting, meetings, stakeholder management, risk assessments, et cetera, et cetera. I'm not talking about all these services. I want to -- I'd like to focus your attention on 2 aspects of PM transformation that are very important for PM transformation and a clear change compared to where we were. And one is related to commercial or business. We in PM -- we have the commercial responsibility in our ongoing projects, which means we are now doing also quoting and change request management, cost monitoring and controlling and building the customer relationship together with our colleagues in BD. So this means more responsibility, more work on the PM side. And at the same time, it basically liberates, it frees up time for our business developments -- of our business development colleagues to go out, to acquire new projects, understand and bring in new technologies, so to also support on their side, the strong growth of Bachem now and in the future. So clearly, something we did here in collaboration with our BD colleagues to make the best for our project teams, for our customers and for Bachem. So that is the commercial piece. And on the right-hand side, you can see the project team of the future. This is how we named it. This is an empowered cross-functional team. And the change here is that we want to bring more refilling, more empowerment, more decision-making into our cross-functional project teams so that these teams are strong to resolve issues to decide on -- make strategic decisions to consolidate the internal and the external needs. Sometimes they are -- often they are identical, but there are times when these needs are conflicting and then the team needs to find good solutions and also to apply new ways of working. So this is project team of the future. And this is also a major change that we have initiated with PM transformation. So this is change number two, that we are expanding our, let's say, service catalog and responsibilities for Bachem and certainly for our customers. Now the third change deals with structure. The picture on the right-hand side, you can see our different sites here in orange, the GMP sites in Europe, and the U.S. And in addition, we have non-GMP sites, one in the U.K., where we produce small-scale peptides. And we have an office in additional management office in Tokyo and Japan. So the aim of PM transformation here is to develop a global PM structure to support project transfers across sites. We have different sites with different makeups, different capabilities. And we have a global customer portfolio, who is who pharma basically works with us. And therefore, we also need to address that in our global structure by making sure our PM department is not regional, not local, but a true global organization, which then when we have handovers of projects, this global structure supports these site transfers. So we have, in the context of PM transformation, we have harmonized our career path, so similar job descriptions, for instance, for the different career levels. We have worked on procedures and tools for recruiting, onboarding and training to harmonize that across the PM sites. And given the new responsibilities, the new accountability we have also looked into the head count and the compensation in order to reflect these new responsibilities. So this is change number three, a global structure compared to where we were 3, 4 years ago. Change number four comes now to our -- come to our PM leadership. So we have introduced an elevated role for PM leadership team in -- for better cross-functional governance and those of you who work in cross-functional governance boards, they know that, yes, you need to stand your ground in these boards. It's sometimes a little bit like in a boxing arena. So therefore, it was also important in PM transformation to say if we want to transform PM, we need to have a strong say in these governance boards. So we have a global head now as of January last year, reporting directly to the C level. We have better PM representation in these cross-functional decision boards, and we also have the authority to initiate new projects. So this is change number four, an elevated role for PM leadership. Now change number four, also very, very important because it deals with, let's say, the rest of the organization we are working with. So please allow me some time to walk you. So this information -- so we have -- there's still 3 pillars here where we want to see change. On the left-hand side, we expect from the functions to support their project team members to fulfill their tasks to take ownership and accountability for reaching the functional specific tasks in a similar way as we expect accountability from our project leaders. That means the functions need to provide information to the PTMs and sufficient training. The teams are only as good as the people and the teams and the functions need to empower them so that the PTMs can take decisions on behalf of their functions and they don't need to always, let's say, go back to their supervisors to check and then go back to the project team because that makes the work slow, inefficient and in the worst case, frustrates the project team members and the customer. So this is supporting the PTM role. And secondly, it also has to do with the mindset. So we want a strong refilling in our project teams overcoming the silos, let's say, the we against us situation, and that requires a mindset of collaboration, solution finding efficiency and value creation. So we want the PTMs also to see a career opportunity in their project work and for this, we need to have the right structure in place, but also we need this element of mindset that, hey, it's great to work in the project team. It's challenging. It's exciting, it's fun and it's also good for my career path. And on the right-hand side in this, let's say, along this line, we want to further align on goal setting to make sure that the project leader and the project team members they all pull in the same direction with their project and they are aligned in terms of their annual goal setting and performance is also evaluated in the context of how well the individual project work goes. So 5 exciting changes with PM transformation, and like always, it's a journey. We have ticked already many boxes. We started in 2022, as I showed you before with our assessment, the endorsement by the C level. And then we kicked off various work streams to implement these changes in our service catalog and our global structure, job IDs, et cetera. And we are continuing to execute. We have done so last year, and we are continuing this year, especially in the areas of training, training project managers, and project team members. It's very critical. We're growing as a company as Daniel and I explained to you before. So we have a constant stream of new people coming in. They need to understand what we want to achieve at Bachem and in particular here with PM transformation and then ultimately switch the entire project portfolio to the new ways of working, so making sure that all the teams work as close to the [indiscernible] vision as possible. So with this, I come to my summary. So Bachem's growth is exciting. It's a great opportunity for all of us, and it means a big change for everyone in operations, in queue, change for management, new factories, new technologies, great times, and it also means a change in project management, irrespective of the good level that we had already back in 2022. So we're now having a global PM organization and its ability to drive projects together with our customers. This is mission-critical in an increasingly complex environment. We are part -- We, PM are part of the ongoing innovation. It's not only about technologies and factories, it's also about business models. It's also about team empowerment and new ways of working. And very exciting to represent this global PM organization here today in this webinar. This whole effort, the proposal, PM transformation, the execution is only possible with all my great colleagues in the background that I'm very happy to work with. So the people are at the core of PM transformation, and I brought a picture here with my colleagues, and I want to thank them also for their continuous support and yes, commitment to PM transformation. And I want to thank you very much for your attention. And I'm happy to take any questions, back over to you, Daniel. Thank you.

Welcome, everybody. And with this, we are now really live. I hope you enjoyed the content, as Gerrit said, welcome to the interactive session. Before we get into the Q&A, we're going to have a poll. We have a question for the audience. What do you rate most important in the CDMO's project management offering. And here, we go already, so please make your choice. And we will see the results shortly. First results are coming in. All right. So those are the results. Around 1/3 enjoy lean and cost efficient, while roughly 2/3 are demanding the closer development. I think, Gerrit, what do you think? I won't think this is any surprise, but your feedback, please.

No, it's not surprising to me. It is what I expected, but it's great to see that development in a close partnership is indeed what the majority of our listeners have selected showing that, yes, we are on the right track to work in cross-functional project teams to put a lot of effort into our teams into trainings and into listening carefully to our customers what they desire, what the expectations are and to develop that together. Yes, but it's also interesting to see that about 1/3 saying, hey, we go for a lean and cost-efficient project handling. So the most money for the -- say, the most efficient outcome for the money and they trust. I understand this in the following way, they trust us and Bachem that we are competent to develop and produce the relevant molecule and then deliver with their respective quality. Yes, I think both approaches are very fair, and we are always open to listen and to understand what the expectations are, and then we take it from there.

Then I see a few questions now popping up. Let me quickly sort that out. The first question, Gerrit. Do we, at Bachem have dedicated project managers. Could you comment on that, please?

Yes, sure. Yes, we do have. So we have -- it's a dedicated, let's say, PM department or a global PM department. And so each time when a new customer approaches us and discusses his needs. And we come together and we then set up a project team which is typically a cross-functional project teams with core functions from development production and quality. And this cross-functional team is typically coordinated and led by a project leader, project manager. And so every project that we have in our portfolio has a dedicated project manager and not only a dedicated project manager, but also a deputy because we know sometimes there are times of vacation or illness whatsoever. And then you need to have a solid, sound deputy who jumps in and can basically moderate lead the team for these times. So this is also very important to us that we have smooth transitions and handovers.

Right. And I can confirm as a previous project manager, I quite enjoyed the deputy system, so I knew project was in good hands, and I could enjoy my well-deserved vacation. All right, Gerrit. Next question would be how big are the project teams.

The project teams, that really depends. It can be as small as 4, 5 people from our side. This is very lean project. It could just be somewhere from development/manufacturing, someone from QC project management to business development. So few work non-GMP, then it's really a core team, small quantities needed. So it starts at around 3, 4, 5 people on our side, but it can go up to 50, 20 people, depending on the size and the complexity of the project.

All right. Then there is a question from someone who is apparently already a little bit further in its project life cycle, and it goes following. What will happen to my project over the course of its product life cycle. Do you follow different approaches for different stages?

Yes, we do. So we typically, in our structure, we follow the say, the classical value chain or development value chain of pharmaceutical molecules. So we start in the preclinical phase, prepare the first GMP material for clinical studies and then we support our customers all the way through clinical development and into commercialization if the molecule is successful in the clinic. So we have groups in our PM department that are specialized on certain areas of the value chain. So we have a team focusing more on the early stage. A team focusing on the clinical stage and then teams on the commercial side. And we made good experience by handing over projects at a certain time to the next group, simply because you have, let's say, centers of excellence that have gone through, for instance, process validations already or commercialization regulatory approvals, et cetera. So these centers of excellence then help to bring the best service. This handover is not dogmatic. So it does not mean this has to happen. It also depends on the project. So we also have projects where the project leader basically left the project from preclinical all the way to commercial. So as I said, it's -- we have made good experience with the centers of excellence and these handovers, but it's no dogma. And I know from pharma, our pharma customers, they also do the same. So they have a development team for clinical and regulatory approval, and then they have a commercial team handing over at some point and or taking over the activities, the responsibilities to then make sure the molecule is not only properly developed, but then also brought into the various global markets. I hope that answers the question.

I would think so. All right. Then we have one more question. It looks like from a project manager following the trend. So how about agile project management. Do we use that? And if yes, to what extent?

We have used agile methods in -- I mean, typically, they come like scrum from the IT background. So we've also started at Bachem in the IT and CapEx environment with some first trials and we are currently also exploring methods of agile project management in the context of PM transformation. So I told you before that we have this [indiscernible] team, so they have applied for instance, the Double Diamond methodology to develop a solution based on a general problem statement, also in the context of decision-making that I alluded earlier, we're using agile methods to make aware -- to make team aware of different decision-making processes. And most recently, we have considered to apply scrum methodology for instance, the sprint logic in our development projects when the goal, let's say, is not yet clear, so you need to really have different iterations of process development, always need to pause to start to see what do we have? Is it still in line with my target, with my customer expectations. So here, we would like to actually apply these HR methods in our R&D projects moving forward.

I think these were all the questions. Thank you very much for posting and interaction with us. This brings us to the end, but not just quite yet. So please check out the Knowledge Center on the Bachem website. You're going to find either previous webinars with lots of different content, but also several white papers or case studies about Bachem's topics, their innovation and our technical approaches. So don't miss that, more to come as well. And with this, thank you very much. Thank you for tuning in. Wishing you a good evening or good remainder of the day or good night, wherever you are. In case this webinar sparked interest, of course, feel free to get in touch with us. Our contact is on this slide. So either by phone, we're also happy to receive an e-mail by you, and we're going to forward it to the respective person to direct attention. And that will be it. So thank you very much. Take care and until the next time.

Thank you so much, Daniel.