Bajaj Mobility AG (BMAG) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the PIERER Mobility Adjust Guidance and Response of Tougher Global Condition Conference Call. I am Sandra, the Chorus Call operator. [Operator Instructions] The conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast. At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Mr. Stefan Pierer, CEO. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you very much. Good morning to everybody. I'll jump in. Maybe I'll take already Steve's headline, PIERER Mobility; second profit warning within 6 months, yes. That's related to our guidance release. I think what has changed throughout the last 6 months? What's clear, we have a very volatile global environment on the market. And what's the most hurting thing is the higher interest rate, especially in North America. If we jump in and make a rough look about the different markets globally. If you start in the U.S., the total market by the end of May has a minus of 6.1%. We are slightly behind of that on retail with minus 8%. And that area is -- it's the biggest challenge because the higher retail financing costs are hurting dealers and us as well. That means we have to reduce on the supply chain, the working capital, and we have to support our dealers. If we jump to the European Union, which is still our biggest single market, although Europe is in a recession, the retail market is doing very well. We have a plus of plus 5% by the end of May in total, for sure, some differences between Germany, France and Britain, but it's going okay. We have a plus of 3%. But still, retail financing and the high interest rate is also effecting. If we jump to India, India is the, I would say, the most benefiting global economy out of the political situation of the war in Ukraine. Our specific market in the retail is growing at 20%, yes, which we are already more or less in line. The total opposite is in China. By the end of May, we have a minus in the total market in China of minus 40%, yes, minus 40%, very similar our quantities. Still stable is LatAm, although we have in Argentina, I would say, a very interesting pilot project regarding economy. It's a plus of 6%, which we are more or less in line. So overall, still [ NLK ] sales market, but very challenging on the supply chain, on the distribution chain. So we have to support our worldwide dealers on the interest rate. Secondly, we are working very, very hard to reduce that supply chain to the dealers. That was the first effect, what we also mentioned 6 months ago, we have reduced our production volume. So -- and then overall, it takes for sure, a certain time that we come down. It will take another 12 months. But the market is still okay, which is the very positive message on that. Based on that, I think we have started already in our announcement in December, a real tough cost reduction program, which for that, I would like to hand over to Viktor Sigl, my colleague on the Board, CFO, please, Viktor. Go ahead.

Also good morning from my side. Considering this challenging market environment, we also see on the production cost side that due to the fact that we had high wages settlement and increases and also increasing costs in connection with the regulations and bureaucracy within the European Union, a sharp increase of production costs. And this forced us to continue with the cost-cutting program, which we started already with the beginning of this year, and we had to tighten it again to be competitive in the market. One painful thing is for sure, you can imagine that after the last year's of significant growth, Also, our number of employees increased more or less in the same way. We doubled our head count number over the last 10 years. In this year, in connection with this cost-cutting program, we started to reduce our workforce. We reduced already by more than 500 employees since the beginning of this year. And by the end of the year, we expect a reduction of our workforce by almost 15%. As I said, this is a painful step. Nevertheless, it's necessary to be -- to have a competitive cost structure and to be competitive in the market. In addition to that, we have also to expand our supply chain which is -- I'll take it over, another challenge in Europe. So I would say the small-sized supply companies are heavily under pressure due to the high energy costs and labor costs. So throughout the last 12 months, we had 2 or 3 bankruptcies of very important small-sized suppliers. So we had to transfer the components to other suppliers. And -- but we put in place a tough transferring program to the supply chain in India and China because fortunately, due to our strong foothold at China and then our partnership with Bajaj, we are able to do that. But for the European standpoint, it's really sad. So the midsized companies, energy intensive, labor intensive, they are trying out. And that's the reason we do it. In addition, we are also transferring R&D activities to China and India, which is helping us to become faster and secondly, to save costs on our operation here in Europe. Maybe I give you just a comparison on workforce yearly hours compared to our locations in India and in China.

In Austria, we have a network working hours per year of 1,650 hours. The same engineer in Hangzhou is working 2,540 and very similar is the same in India. So that's clear. It's more or less 50% more than we have. That's a very simple explanation by Chinese companies that are faster than we are. And secondly, also the costs are still half of the size of what we have in Europe. So that's a challenge. But fortunately, we have 2 strong footholds in the real future global areas. That's on the supply chain and R&D. On the Bicycle division, we are well on track on the restructuring. We started already a year ago. So by the end of this year, it gets finished. So that means focusing on the 3 premium brands, what we have from the motorcycle, it's GASGAS and Husqvarna and then the high-end FELT. So it's a little or an overseeable operation with around -- in the future around EUR 150 million sales and becoming in the same ratio what we are used to the motorcycle. So finally, the adjustment of the guidance, Viktor, maybe an outlook.

So summarizing all these circumstances, we expect for both segments, Motorcycle segment and Bicycle segment, a decline in sales between 10% and 15% for the whole year. Earning wise, we have to differentiate a little bit in the Motorcycle segment. We expect more or less slightly positive EBIT based on the already started cost-cutting program, as mentioned before. Nevertheless, we have to support in the motorcycle business, our dealers which means especially to reduce dealer stock on their side, meaning that this year, we will be able to reduce inventory in our balance sheet. But for '25, we have to reduce also the inventory on the dealer side considering the actual high interest rates. For the Bicycle segment, as my colleague, Stefan Pierer mentioned before, we started this realignment program already last year. Based on the higher inventory in the whole supply chain and especially on the dealer side, we have to consider extraordinary impairment and restructuring costs for this year in the range of EUR 110 million to EUR 130 million, which is more or less also the earnings for the whole year for the Bicycle segment. So this was it in a nutshell, and we would be very happy to reply on your questions.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from Christian Arnold from Stifel Schweiz.

I have a question on the impairments, so to say. I mean, you mentioned motorbicycles will have a negative EBIT of between EUR 110 million and EUR 130 million. I wonder how much external depreciation or revaluation of impairment, you will have? Yes, on the bicycle side as well on group will be my first question.

This is the amount.

That's the amount.

That's the amount. Yes. So we have to see the market development for the rest of the year, but this is based on the knowledge we have today. We expect the impairment in that amount. And this should also give us the possibility to cover all the other additional costs come along with it.

Okay. And on the motorbike division, do we also have some impairments or devaluation of assets?

No.

No.

Okay. Then maybe on the balance sheet. Could you give us an indication what do you expect in terms of net debt? How that will develop? I mean, you have to continue to support your dealer network. So what do you think where will net debt be at year end?

Honestly saying, at the moment, I expect more or less the same level as we had last year. Why? The inventory we are selling now to the dealers will become a receivable. And based on the long payment terms, at the moment, we have to give to the dealers because of the high interest rates. We are not in a position to reduce our working capital for the Motorcycle division. For the bicycle division, there are outstanding orders we have to take, and this will lead to an increase of the [indiscernible] by the year end. But at the end of the day, and this is -- I mean this is by the end of '25, we should come back to a normal course.

Okay. And maybe the last question in terms of interest payment, I mean, having the same amount of net debt. We had last year an increase of interest payments to a level of EUR 67 million or EUR 68 million. Do you expect interest payments to be in the same magnitude or higher?

For this year, it will be higher due to the fact that we have still a high level of interest rates. And as you mentioned in your report, some certain covenants are in place which increase the margin and this will lead to a higher financial -- higher negative financial results.

Okay. So high double-digit millions?

Yes.

The next question comes from Mark Diethelm from Bank Vontobel.

I have several questions. One, can you quantify the costs related to the relocation of the production and the reduction in workforce? And does it include also restructuring of MV Agusta. I guess there is some work to be done there as well. Can you quantify which is the cost. So I just -- it's also related to the second question, when you look at the cost base going forward in the motorcycle division, is the 8% to 10% margin level still feasible or has something changed structurally also with the relocation?

If we jump in restructuring labor costs, and also fortunately, we have a labor law, which is helpful. You can terminate the contract without compared to Germany to set up big social plans. This -- everything is basically written in law. I would say, on average, on blue collar, you have a short period, maximum a month in addition to what you have to pay, I would say, on average in white collar is around 3 months. That it -- you have to tell officials if you're doing in 1 step more than 5%, you have to announce that. But the rest, it's an ongoing process month by month. Coming to the relocation costs, there are no additional relocation costs, completing production from [indiscernible] to our strategic partner because it's [indiscernible] sales is not so much capital intensive. So from that relocation costs are more or less I would say, a reduction, the cost of the reduction of the labor costs in the Austria. So this is something what we have to consider. This is, as my colleague mentioned, depending on the grace period 1 or 3 months. And we have to got -- we have a strategic, very good position. We have our joint venture in Hangzhou, where we have a state-of-the-art production facility together with CFMOTO in there. We have a capacity of around meanwhile 60,000 units. Currently, we are running on 40,000 together. So the middle-class 790 platform gets produced there. So -- and secondly, the entrance bikes from 125 up to 400 cc is in India on our plant or on the plant of our partner Bajaj. So there are no additional costs if we transfer or define a future volume in China or in India. MV Agusta is on track. Yes, for sure. We have to integrate this company, but this is something we should -- what started already 1 year ago. As you know, we took over the majority by the beginning of this year, and we will continue with this integration process. So the total management is led by our employees. So [indiscernible] and another running the operation. What we also already announced the R&D center in San Marino, part of the PIERER will come to [indiscernible] and the rest, we are joining our, I would say, co-working design activities together with CFMOTO in the area of [indiscernible]

Maybe just 2 follow-ups. Again, so MV Agusta right now is not making profit. It's loss making. And the second one is on the new cost structure. When you look into '25 with this 1,500 reduction in employees. It's midterm, the 8% to 10% on the motorcycle business, so realistic for margin.

And we at the moment and for this year, we expect, I would say, slightly positive, maybe slightly negative around this. This is the first year where we have full control over the company. In regards of the employee, we reduced 500 already. We expect another 300 to maybe 400. This means 15% of our overall employees will be reduced by this year.

Then I move on to -- you might also wonder is on CapEx and free cash flow. I mean, you already mentioned, the net working capital, but with the relocation, R&D being transferred, so will CapEx be materially different going forward compared to the old structure. So the 3% to 5% free cash flow to sales, does that still stand? Or is that changed as well?

For this year, not really because you have to finalize the projects you started in the R&D area. So it makes no sense to stop projects. And because some projects are more or less very close to the SOP. So you have to finalize this. But here, we see a midterm and long-term impact on our CapEx structure. So the CapEx structure on R&D, which is we have done here, will start -- turning point will come down.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from [ Dominik ] [indiscernible]

I have 3 questions. Regarding, if you could maybe just elaborate again a bit more on why Europe is holding up rather well? I mean, what we hear were from people so they all say that especially bicycles are available with big discounts because they are still oversupplied in the market. What is the situation we like in Europe? And then maybe if you could also elaborate a bit more on these small suppliers in Europe. I mean, do you expect a further one ready to disappear? And last question, again Agusta, is it now actually -- I didn't get that. Is it now loss-making still? Or is it returning to profits this year?

Let's start on the global discussion. Europe is regulating itself to a standstill. That I think is the headline. Secondly, I think it's also the biggest problem in Europe currently is the high energy costs, not consolidated industrial strategy. Every country is doing its own. I'm not talking about Switzerland anyway, you're not part of that. But like in the energy strategy, Spain and Portugal anyway, they have cut off Scandinavian countries, doing different and the Central Europe begins facing high energy costs. Secondly, we have a demographic problem. We are running out of workforce. So 100 are getting retired, and 65 coming fresh. So that's a negative difference. Secondly, the 65, not all of them are really with right mindset and I think the immigration to Europe didn't work well also 2015, a very famous German chancellor told we will do it. So that's the biggest problem. And instead of exporting to other areas and especially to China, China is turning around. They have big problems in China. And so they try to fix it with a very aggressive export strategy, which we are facing in Europe, not just on electric cars, it's every segment. So that's the reason that small-sized companies in Europe based on the higher labor costs, higher energy costs and what I have mentioned will come under pressure or more or less, if you don't have any global footprint, you're more or less dedicated to [indiscernible] So that's my clear message to Europe. Hopefully, we are getting a new government in Brussels with a different chancellor. So -- and to set up industry strategy, which can help a little bit, but the turning point has come that's -- it doesn't sound very optimistic, but it's reality. And in that, you have to react. We have to take care that our company is doing the right thing that we are doing immediately restructuring that we are using our footprints and coming out maybe one of the winners, although we are not able to save Europe. . So coming back to MV Agusta, this year is the classic restructuring as soon as we have taken over management, I think MV Agusta in the next couple of years will become our luxury brand. So it should achieve higher EBIT margins than we are used to the, I would say, classic motorcycle area. What was the third question?

About the retail market in Europe. I mean.

That's very interesting.

We hear all these discounts in the market.

Yes, I have to distinguish between bicycle and motorcycle. In the bicycle industry, we have a classic pool with effects. The bicycle especially e-bicycle was the big win in the corona time, everybody was trapped. So instead of doing vacations, the e-bikes were bought. And due to the effect, everybody was ordering Far East the huge quantities because they have expected based on that level, but after corona and after getting rid of the lockdown, it came down to a level of 2018, 2019, is still stable but we have a huge inventory in the wholesale supply chain from Far East to the OEMs, to the dealer network and it takes another 12 months, but it in some segments already getting better. So the discounts will come down and then it's running to a normal level. Secondly, the retail motorcycle is still doing, I would say, very good compared to the recession what we have in Europe. Why? Because all the European governments have spent a lot of money and the high inflation rates led us to the huge increases in labor costs and liquidity or the consumer level is there. That's the current status.

In addition to that, for the bicycle segment, you must see the shift in our strategy. I don't want to say from the mass market to the premium segment, but it's more or less history. As you know we have big plans for our bicycle segment and we have to recognize especially now after the first post COVID year that this market is completely different than the market where we are used to be in, meaning the premium market. And this is the shift towards the premium brands we have in our portfolio, meaning we have to clean inventory on our side, but also clean inventory on the dealer side, which is not an easy job because you have also to give the dealer a long-term perspective, that they can do a very nice business with premium brands in the future.

That's our expectation in the future. The market will split off in a price-wise very competitive mass market and the premium luxury market. The middle class is coming under pressure. Premium market and, I would say, the step in market. it also -- we see it already because we have a strategic partnership with CFMOTO, our joint venture partner from China. And we take care for the European distribution. And we see that, that segment is growing very nicely.

Can I add one question?

Yes.

Having talked about demographics, obviously, up to a certain age, you can ride a bicycle or a motorcycle, but does that also worry you now that as a society, we are getting older, especially here in Europe, but also in the U.S. and there might be less of a demand really for bicycles and motorcycles in the future or can you make up for this somehow?

What we see in the U.S, the U.S. is a very good immigration. I don't talk about the Mexican border and the Latin America. But overall, the average age in U.S. is still -- is decreasing and a new segment of motorcycle demand was showing up. Price-wise competitive entrance market, single cylinder, 450, 500 cc, which before was just big displacement, Harleys and those kind of cruisers. Now we are becoming a similar marketing like we are used in Latin America, street bikes, full faired, naked bikes, especially in Mexico. So that is a positive trend. In Europe, currently, we -- I think here the very -- the average age around is currently between 52 and 55. You're right, it's getting elder. But on the short term, it's a very benefit because those customers are very healthy. I don't know if you have a motorcycle ride and going to maybe to a road to Northern Italy, they make a stop at a restaurant and you see the guys there then for sure, you can see that the average age is around 55, 60, yes. But it's a very healthy one for the premium market. And hopefully, sooner or later, we are able to make, I would say, an intelligent immigration from the right areas from India, from Latin America or maybe from the Philippines, then they are integrated in our, I would say, economy and they can buy motorcycles or cars or whatever.

The next question come from Christian Braun from Finanz und Wirtschaft.

I want to go back to the profit warning. This has been quite massive, and I don't get rid of the impression that at least part of it is company specific. Because if I look at the competition, for example, BMW motorcycle, they had a fairly well first quarter. They had less sales. They had less revenue. They had less profit, but still, it was quite a good quarter. Looking at the car market, which has also some similarities in that it is also dependent on the economy and financing, interest rates and so on. Car market is also holding well, holding up quite well relatively, but I think the problem with -- we have here with this profit warning is mainly dealers. So I have -- my question is now, have you pushed too many motorcycles on dealers' lots. So they are choking now and you have to save them? And have you some learnings about this?

Yes, absolutely. You're right. I think it's coming out of a 10 years' growth story where we were over motivated. And you think as long the dealer is taking it and also in the same mode, it works. But as soon, you're recognized, you have to turn around. So you're right, a certain part is also homemade. But I think what we are standing for, and that's the reason, and I am the major shareholder, and I'm now on the forefront. We have to react immediately. And the restructuring of a company, if you look on my CV, I think that I've learned and you can trust me. I will do it.

I think what you mentioned is completely right. You also see the seasonality. We are pretty much of driven, meaning in the second half of the year. And due to the fact that the interest rates are still high and dealer stock is still high. We had to put out volumes, meaning put pressure on the dealer flow. And this is what Stefan Pierer mentioned [indiscernible] immediately. The learning curve for sure is that we took out volumes from production. And yes, you are right, we were over motivated over the last year, but also the dealers were over motivated by because money costs nothing. It's more or less for [indiscernible] And this was the reason why inventory is now high. And if you see a dealer margin, if you -- I would say, average dealer earns EBIT margin of between 5% and 6%. And if you have to take this money to pay your inventory, therefore dealers need to support what we mentioned in our press release.

You have to distinguish the retail currently is still running like in the -- we have the same retail or increase of markets slightly better than the European car market. I think, but if you look into on the supply and dealer chain, then it's too high here. But I can tell you, let's sit together in 6 months, Mr. Braun. And then we can talk the similar situation of the car industry because we have a very good insight, you can trust me, and that will come at least in the fourth quarter, we have the same situation, overfilled pipeline.

Okay. But coming back to the motorcycle business, is it -- is there a danger that it will take the same path as your bicycle business with -- I mean it directionally is the same already but we think it's a huge profit.

No, no, it's not comparative because in the segment, we are [indiscernible] we have 4 brands. We know what the brands are standing here and what we have to do. You must see that during the COVID crisis, the lead time from the supplier was up to 2 years. And this is the reason why we are suffering in the bicycle business with the high inventory and the high stock in the whole supply chain. So this is something you cannot compare with the motorcycle segment. The motorcycle segment we had in the past a normal lead time for the past. But in the COVID crisis, for the bicycle segment, this increased tremendously, and this was the reason for the high inventory.

And Mr. Braun, it's totally a different thing. On the motorcycle, yes, you have to clean up the pipeline. It's clear, it takes time. It costs money based on the high interest rates, but a restructuring in the sense that we are using our strategic footprints in India and China and back on track that is back to 8% and 10%. And with MV Agusta more than that, yes. This year, it's clear. Maybe in '25, one of the thing, but back on track. That's the thing that I'm at the forefront, you can trust me. We did it...

How long will it take -- how long will it take to get back on track in the motorcycle division?

I would say, on the motorcycle for sure, it takes a year, till the end of next year. That's my opinion. And for sure, on the bicycle next year, we'll see a positive result. And that's my experience after -- if you are doing very fast within a year, but at least within 2 years, you have to finalize the restructuring. Otherwise, you're doing something wrong. So that's clear. That's how it works in restructuring. Now in one or the other segment, we are a little bit ahead on the other -- in between. But that we are doing back on track. That's the headline.

Next question comes from Alexander Burgansky from Research Partners.

I have four questions, if I may. So firstly, on the bicycles, can you untangle a little bit the 10% to 15% reduction. What part of it comes from the inventory, what part of it comes from the fact that you stopped selling the traditional bikes and the retraction we've seen at the end of last year? Because I think you mentioned at the last call, at one of the last calls that non-e-bikes accounted for about 30% of your sales. So I was expecting your bicycles to decline a bit more this year. And yes, if you can talk a little bit how that plays out. . The second question I have is on China. You mentioned a 40% reduction in Chinese motorcycle market. So can you talk a little bit about what is going on there and how you expect that to change maybe next year? The third question is on financial covenants for your debt. If you can elaborate what those covenants are and how they could affect you? And lastly, I want to get a confirmation on dividends. And given that you are forecasting losses for 2024, do you still have plans to pay dividend for 2024 and 2025?

Let's start with the global discussion in China. The latest information what we have it's -- in some segment, it's getting much better. That means in twin-cylinder around between 400 and 500 cc. That's the fastest-growing segment currently. Our CFMOTO thinks that by the end of the year, it will get stabilized on that. And so for '25, they expect a quantity, which is more or less similar to '23, that's what they are telling us. So the second thing was regarding the loss from the -- from the -- the reduction in sales in bicycle, you must see that we have to clean inventory this year and next year. Meaning cleaning the inventory is pushing sales. And as we mentioned, there is a shift in the strategy towards more premium brands meaning in the midterm perspective, sales will be, I would say, on the level where we are now, but with a completely different mix. Saying what is coming from the mix this year is quite difficult because of the cleaning of the inventory in the whole supply chain. Regarding the covenants, there is -- we have -- there is a promissory note loan in place that this is public known. There is a margin grid included, and this will impact our P&L this year. And regards to dividends, there is no decision made until now. And we have in the covenants, no default covenants is also already mentioned in previous calls.

And just on this clearing of inventory, I mean I think both of you mentioned that the situation could last until the end of next year. So what does that mean with the sales outlook for 2025?

Yes. Look, for the bicycle business, I expect maybe depends on how we are able to clean the inventory, but it should be on the level of this year, maybe slightly higher. In motorcycle, we will see the market conditions.

But the supply chain in motorcycles will not be cleared until the end of 2024. Is that correct? So it could be a...

We have cleared it already on -- we have cleared it already on our production volume and cleaned it up on our level internally. But the dealer level we expected we will take middle of next year. So -- but already on our side, it's working. But we have to see the whole line and any way we are financing our dealer network.

The next question comes from Marc Possa from VV AG.

I would have a specification question concerning that dealer destocking, I mean, as far as I understand, you will never go as far as we've seen with the watch industry in Switzerland when dealers had to be bought out and kind of merchandise had to be taken back by the producing company. This will not be the case for PIERER Mobility, no?

No.

Okay. So it's just not having the possibility to further deliver further sale into the dealers since they have full inventory and still we'll have to kind of sell or sell those stocks before they come up with new orders. So the only exposure you have is a financial exposure is you're trying to help them out. You prolong the payment terms...

Yes. Yes, you have to see our front end is a dealer. It's an entrepreneur. He is depending on your product line. You are sitting in the same boat. So it doesn't help. If we push a lot of inventory in, and then you have to do finance it together with him. I think you have to -- we -- it's part of our company more or less. So we have to find the best way to clean up that.

In the past, for the dealer, it was convenient to be available with finished products. And because the costs for that were close to zero, now this changed over the last 3 years. And therefore, we have to help them.

And can you remind us of your innovation cycles, I mean, is it a 2-year cycle when you come out with new kind of motorbikes or bicycles. Is that correct? Are those inventories going to be obsolete for one or the other reason, and you have to participate in kind of big rebates and kind of actions?

You have -- on the street side, you have 3 years, 3, 4 years with some facelift and in offer this 2, 3 years. It's 1 or 2 years of less.

Okay. And then another question, there was an article today in the newspapers here in Switzerland saying that the electrified minis would be taxed with 31 -- 38.1% when they were coming from China where they are produced to Europe, i.e., imported in Europe. Is that something that CFMOTO could face as well or you? With the CFMOTO since you are the dealer in Europe?

You have to distinguish. We have currently electric motorcycles for kids, which are produced here and also the free ride, which is produced here. The only product which is already coming from our strategic partner CFMOTO is scooter, a high-performance scooter with 11-kilowatt under the brand [ CEO ] which we just recently launched in Europe. That's a final product. So, so far, power 2-wheelers, I don't see any information that is -- would be covered on the same system, what the stupid European Commission is doing with the electric cars.

Okay. And then a last question.

Yes, please?

Yes, sorry. Yes. As a last question, looking at the balance sheet and the current economic environment, the covenants and so on. I mean, would it make sense to consider maybe a capital increase to give you the full flexibility in terms of potential M&A that could always come up, thinking of Ducati and other opportunities in that luxury high-end segment? What are your thoughts there?

No, we have enough brands. The acquisition with MV Agusta gives us that strategy to grow up in the luxury segment and also taking one or the other percentage from Ducati. It's clear that's our competitor. And I think we have 4 brands. It's enough and liquidity and the financing is enough so far, in my opinion, we don't need a capital increase for some acquisition. Now we have, in the short term, in the next 12 months, we have to do our homework back on track, back on that margins what we are used to. And I can tell you, based on very tough circumstances, if you're doing it right, it's named consolidation. Maybe one or the other thing, it's showing up.

The last question for today's call comes from Christian Arnold from Stifel.

Just a follow-up question. I mean, you showed us how -- yes, drastically, you react on the motorbikes side in terms of supply chain. So working closer to -- with your strategic partners in China, in India and you're also more based on suppliers from that area. Now on the bicycle side, you have Maxcom your partner in Bulgaria. And actually, you aim to have the supply chain moved from Asia to Europe. I mean this goal, is that still valid? Or do you also think that you maybe have to base more again on Asian suppliers when it comes to your bicycle business?

I think due to the fact that we are focusing on the premium segment, where we have not huge quantities, hundreds thousands and we are talking about 30,000, 40,000 maximum 50,000 units. We are focusing on strategic component partners. As we -- similar what we have with Maxcom on the assembling, we agreed on shifting and other things with SRAM. We have a strategic relation with SRAM which is a very strong competitor to Shimano. Then for Husqvarna, as a European brand and urban mobility brand, we have agreed on Porsche powertrain. So that's basically we have some standard long-term partnerships for that. And the only thing which is still in Far East is clear. It's the frame because a carbon frame to get on a competitive level in Europe so far is not possible. The only thing which could happen is aluminum, which are some activities in Portugal. But currently, we have still for the frame supply chain from Far East. And it is same thing anyway is in Europe, yes, so in Bulgaria.

Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I would now like to turn the conference back over to the management for any closing remarks.

Thank you very much. Let's do the work. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Thank you very much.

Ladies and gentlemen, the conference is now over. Thank you for choosing Chorus Call, and thank you for participating in the conference. You may now disconnect your lines. Goodbye.