Banco Bilbao Vizcaya Argentaria, S.A. (BBVA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to join us for this second session of the day. And I'm very pleased to be joined today by Onur Genc, CEO of BBVA. Onur, thank you very much for taking the time.

We've developed -- we can talk about, we'll use the same template. I'll start covering some of the main topics and hopefully, we'll leave enough time to 10, 15 minutes to sort of make sure you have the opportunity to ask your own questions. Onur, maybe we can start by sort of looking at sort of the sector in Johan, we see banks still trading multiples that suggest the market is still questioning some of the sustainability of those earnings beats that we've seen so far. You posted a 17% ROTE in the first half, and you anticipated that this metric is going to remain in the high teens also in 2024. Maybe it's worth we start with your views on the outlook for sort of BBVA and also interestingly, on those strengths and in your opinion, the market might not be fully recognizing.

Well, thank you for having me, Antonio. Yes, basically, 17% return on tangible equity, we have been delivering in the first half of the year, and we are still trading below book. And I don't even start with PE. It can only be the sustainable to our earnings in my view, because we are true believers in the market. So our sustainability of the earnings are not taken as much as we like them to be by the market. But allow me on this first question to take a bit of time to reflect a bit on what we have been doing and why we think what we have been doing is relatively sustainable. So three convictions/commitments. The first commission/commitment is in our view, we have been delivering. And we really don't mean in a self-confident way or in an arrogant way. We are really humble people in general, but we have been delivering. We have been delivering in terms of numbers. We are a objective and numbers focused organization. In that sense, and I look into our earnings per share, we basically doubled them in 5 years. As we said, a 16.9% return on tangible equity, we closed 2022 as the best, highest return on tangible equity in Europe. And in Europe, when I mean that, we use a peer group at the group level, the 15 largest European banks, European geography banks, among this group of 15, we were #1. So we have been delivering in terms of the overall highlights. And again, the best measure of success is 69% and so on is measured against competition. when we compare not only at the group level, but at the country level because we are a multi-country bank, as you all know, at the country level as compared to the local competitors in every single geography. So if you isolate for this mix effect of countries, in every single geography, we have been improving our ROE. We have been improving our profit market share. As a result, we have been delivering competitively, and we are sharing that with our shareholders as well. Again, very clear on -- to be very clear on numbers, tangible book value per share plus dividends. If you start from the beginning of 2019 to today, we have delivered 50% when that same peer group of the 15 largest European banks, excluding us, have delivered 30. And then in terms of the share price evaluation plus dividends, so the real value to the shareholder, we have delivered more than 90% when the European banking industry was delivering 57%. So we have been doing really well in our view, and we are still trading global. But why is that, again, the sustainable to, let's go to the second conviction. We do think that what we have been delivering and what we have shown is here to stay. We do think that the sustainability of these numbers and the delivery is there to stay for 2 reasons. One is structural reasons, I would say. And then I would put like a few things underneath, but the structural reason is number 1. In our business, which is retail and commercial banking, we do think scale matters and in the countries that we are present, we do enjoy a very sizable market share in every single geography. And as a result, the return on equity of us versus the -- in that respective country, the average of the banking industry, there is a very meaningful sizable, quite nice gap on our behalf. So we do have very good franchises as proven by numbers, and it is important. And we are in geographies, we are in places where we do think that the growth is here to stay. If you look into household debt over GDP, if you look into corporate debt over GDP, there is a lot more to go in the countries that we are in. There are obviously risks coming along with it. But the leverage situation is very favorable on our behalf, in our view, in these markets. So we do have great franchises in our view, in high-growth countries. Number two, we do think that we have a competitive advantage in digital. Everyone says this, everyone claims that they have it. But in terms of numbers, 77% of our sales now in BBVA, they are happening through digital channels, 77%. The customer acquisition, using digital to acquire a customer is always the most important thing in our view, 65% of the new customers acquired to BBVA are coming through digital channels. So we do believe we do have a competitive advantage in digital. Number three, under the structural reasons. So structural reasons, we have great franchises, number one. Number two, we are good in digital. Number three, we are developing competitive advantage in sustainability it is a major trend. And as we have done in digital, we are putting a lot of resources focused effort on developing a competitive advantage there as well. And number four, under the structural reasons, this customer acquisition topic, you might see that in every single quarterly presentation, we have this one page, which talks about how many new customers that we have acquired especially in retail banking, it's a very important metric. I mean, in different industries, in telecom, in media and so on, there is this ultra-focus on customer numbers. Banking, retail banking is also a periodical revenue kind of a business. If you have a decent relationship with a customer, there's a periodical revenue coming from that customer. As such, the number of customers is very important. It is also important because if you want to grow healthily without creating a lot of cost of risk, growing your franchise, growing your number of customers is important. In that sense, we were acquiring 5 million new customers to BBVA 5 years ago, and we are now acquiring more than 11 million. 5 million has become 11 million, and there's a very nice trend curve there, 5, 7, 9, 11. And the important thing there is the customers that we acquired 5 years ago, there's also a straight line there. In 5 years, they generate 2.2x more revenue as compared to the first year of their age. So in their first year, if they generate $100 of revenue, in 5 years, that same customer generates $220, 2.2x. So there's a maturity effect coming in, making sure that over time, we sell more to that customer base. Why am I saying that? So the 5 million, there's a straight line of growth in number of customers, which implies, in our view, that the customers that we acquired in the last 5 years will continue to create revenues for us in the coming years. There's a maturity effect, the vintage effect that will be coming along. Look at long story short, there are multiple structural reasons that lead us to think that results are there to stay. And then there are some market-related contextual reasons. In Spain, we still haven't reached peak yet. In Mexico, we will continue to grow in revenues. So core revenues in our view, is going to continue to grow. Turkey, we have to see there are obviously some fragilities, vulnerabilities in the market, but we do think it's a great option value for BBVA. And also on cost of risk, we haven't seen deterioration. It's a cycle, but we haven't seen any material deterioration yet. Combining all of them also in the short term for contextual reasons the sustainability of results, in our view, are there. Having said all of this, we have multiple reasons to believe that what we have been delivering is here to stay, but the market doesn't leave it. So our -- I matured enough now to stop complaining about it and start delivering around it. So we have to keep delivering. Again, we have 17% ROTE, we are trading below book, we have excess capital until the time that the market starts leaving in the sustainability of these results, we'll continue to buy back our shares.

That's the way forward. I think let's talk about some of the countries in more detail, maybe starting with Spain. One of the topics that's been sort of dominating debate yesterday, we've had a few of the domestic presenting was that one of your competitors in Spain has introduced a new term deposit offering for retail deposits above EUR 5,000. Now how do you think this will affect your business, your peers and overall deposit betas in Spain?

Yes. That offer is 1% for 12-month term deposit, and if you do certain products, if you get new products, it goes up to 2%. Let me say it this way, in the short term, we have guided the market in the last conference call that we will be growing our NII in Spain, 40% to 45% year-over-year, 2023 versus 2022. And we have guided a deposit EBITDA of 20% at the end of the year, at the end of 2023. Independent of the software, we are sticking with that guidance. So in the short term, the impact of this offer and our reaction and so on. Our reaction, we will see. We have to see how our customers react to it, we have to see -- it's a recent offer of 2 weeks ago. So we have to see how the market takes it. But I would say that independent of whether we respond or not, we stick by our guidance because the offer is something that is doable. But more structurally talking this topic of deposit betas and what happens in Spain and the sustainability of the core revenues is the theme. On that one, I would say that, again, there are some important structural reasons, that has led to what has happened already, which is the loan-to-deposit ratio in Spain, and it's more or less the same for the sector for BBVA is 89%. Spain has been deleveraging, the loans have been coming down and down and down for -- since 2008, basically every unit has been coming down. So loan-to-deposit ratio is 89%. And there is even more liquidity now popping up because the loans are not growing at all. The industry in the first 6 months of the year has shrunk the loan stock at 3.3%. So there's even more room opening up in loan-to-deposit ratio. One of the structural reasons, given the -- it's true for some other markets as well, but we were more active as Spanish banks and for sure, BBVA in doing this, given the negative rates for so long, we have moved all the large ticket balances of our customers, together with our customers, obviously, to off-balance sheet funds. We have EUR 213 billion in deposits in Spain. EUR 92 billion is already in off-balance sheet funds. I mean percentage of deposits more than EUR 500,000 over that, customers are obviously very sensitive to prices and so on, is now 7% of our total deposits. So we have more atomized, more distributed deposit structure in Spain. If you have so much liquidity and if the liquidity keeps increasing, if you have less pressure because your big ticket deposit customers have already moved to mutual funds and so on. I do think that what has happened is due to these structural reasons. And independent of what happens in Spain, we will stay probably below other countries in terms of deposit betas even going forward.

Thank you. Very clear. Maybe let's talk about Mexico then because Mexico, of course, accounts for a large 60% of your profits. The economy has been holding up as sort of policy rates will stay higher for longer, as you mentioned, but the outlook is still sort of a debate with investors and might be affected by slowing growth in the U.S. So how do you see the key moving parts affecting your business in Mexico going forward?

As we said, it's our core franchise, 60% of profits. We are positive on Spain, the previous question that you asked. We are even more positive, we are very positive for Mexico, why? First, the country is bound to grow, the country is going to grow. Number two, banking sector in Mexico is bound to grow even more. And number three, we, we think that the banking sector, we are bound to grow even more. Mexico, why do we -- why are we positive on the macro for the country? We started the year with 1.5% GDP growth expectation for this year for Mexico. We upgraded that to 2.4%, and now we are going to upgrade it again soon to more than 3%. What it's happening, basically tailwinds from the U.S. Obviously, U.S. slowdown might affect and so on, but this is -- as compared to the giant U.S. market, Mexico is there to benefit from this all along. We are seeing very positive signals lately around this. I mean, for the first time after a decade, in June, Mexico has surpassed Canada and China to become the #1 among the countries that export the U.S. So U.S. imports, Mexico is now #1 after so many years surpassing China. For the first time, FDI is growing in a very sizable way, 40% in the first half of the year, year-over-year, 40% increase in FDI. We are seeing, for the first time, investments has always been the problem in Mexico investments going up. But within investments, if you take out construction, it's going up. Within investments, this imported capital goods and the machinery and equipment is going up. We have published this near-shoring report in [indiscernible] Research has done that in Mexico, we see wonderful stories there. So there is this nearshoring thing that has been like the myth that's going to come. And so in our view, it's finally trickling at least, but coming. I had this -- recently, I was in Mexico, I had this breakfast with the key clients of the country. And I ask, what do you want to do to do more? If you want to produce more, if you want to grow more, what do you need? And there, they basically said, all of them are homogeneously, they said labor, they lack labor. I'm like Mexico? You lack labor in Mexico? And there's a big part of informality, obviously, in Mexico, but it's unemployment now is 2.8% in Mexico. To cut the long story short, due to the strength of the -- and the size of the U.S. economy, Mexico is bound to grow. Banking sector within Mexico is bound to grow even more, as I said, why? Because the leverage in the country is very low. It is lower, we discuss this from time to time, but banking debt over GDP in Mexico is 38%. Banking debt over GDP in Brazil is 70%. I mean this 38% is lower than Nicaragua, lower than Peru. So there's room to grow healthily in Mexico. And as a result, in the past decade when you look into the growth of the banking sector versus the overall economy, you would see that banking sector is growing, always much larger than the economy. So banking sector is going to grow. And within that, I don't take too much time, but BBVA is a unique franchise. I've seen many countries in my career and many banks in many countries, including BBVA, obviously, but BBVA Mexico is something else. I mean imagine -- I can give you on the 2 numbers. Again, I keep saying this, but 43% of the payrolls in Mexico for the whole country the amount of salaries that are imputed to customers' accounts, 43% is to BBVA accounts. So we have 43% market share in payroll. It's a huge transactional client base. We have 25% market share in lending, obviously, but even more in the cash flow. And cash flow is the core of our business. You have to be in the cash flow of our customers. So that's one number. The second number, our cost of deposits at the end of June, we had 2.4%, the average of the industry, 4.6%. There is a reason for that cost of funding benefit. So we do have this great franchise in a country that is growing and in a sector that is bound to grow. So we are, again, even more positive on Mexico.

Definitely, your [ gradual ]. Talking about Turkey, which have obviously been a source of volatility for you. Monetary policy has turned more orthodox post elections. What are your latest thoughts on the current situation in Turkey and your expectations in terms of contribution from the [indiscernible] to BBVA.

You're asking a specific question at the end, the contribution from Turkey this year. Last year, we had like EUR 500 million. Obviously, we apply hyperinflationary accounting to Turkey, so the local numbers are much higher. It's a relatively large economy, $1 trillion, roughly. But within this economy, the banks are not making a lot of money at a consolidated level because of hyperinflationary accounting. And for this year, we basically said, really, we don't know. But we would expect, because it depends a lot on the inflation but we would expect a similar contribution to 2022, which was EUR 500 million. In the first half of the year, we already did the EUR 500 million after hyperinflationary accounting. But in the second half of the year, we would expect very negative headwinds because of inflation. I mean monthly inflation is now around 9%, 9.5% in July, 9.1% monthly inflation in August. So given this, there would be some negative numbers coming from Turkey. But on the broader question, we are all aware of the vulnerabilities in Turkey. It's not an easy environment to be fair, and we discussed this multiple times. But there are two things that I would like to highlight again. Number one, there's a new economic team after elections in Turkey, as you all know. And what they have been doing in our view is very positive. It will take time to get back on track. But what the team -- the economic team has been doing there is very positive, so we are coming back to normal, hopefully, is number one. Number two, I go back to the original argumentation around the sustainability of our earnings, we have a wonderful bank, again, not because of a subjective view of me or our team, no, if you look into the numbers, return on equity versus the return on equity of the industry. A number of clients, important market shares, especially in cash flow businesses, payments, insurance and so on, you will see that we have clearly the best bank in the country. And in -- we have a very wide presence in emerging economies, Antonio. What we have learned over the years is that relativity in fragile situations is important. Relativity, meaning your strength versus the rest of the banks. There is this -- let not go there. Okay. I will not do the joke. But we have a wonderful bank, and we are relatively well standing as compared to others. So what we have been doing in Turkey lately in the last years actually to be prepared for negativity, as such, our duration gap now is only 2 months. So when interest rates go up in 2 months, we catch up. And this is mainly -- the 2 months is mainly because of the bonds that we have to buy because of the Central Bank requirements and so on. The duration gap between loans and deposits is now 9 days. So in 9 days, we reprice. That's what we have been doing, trying to reduce that duration gap. We have been trying to reduce our exposure to FX. FX lending has come down dramatically. FX wholesale funding has come down dramatically. So we have been preparing ourselves for some dislocations or some imbalances in the country and reducing that in the long term. The original investment case for Turkey, let me finish with that one. The original investment case for Turkey is that we do believe that some countries, some large enough sizable countries will benefit from the tailwinds of big markets that they are very close to. The case of Mexico is that the U.S. will benefit Mexico, has to, that's what we believe. And the same story for Turkey. We thought originally that Turkey is the manufacturing club for Europe, and there will be some, again, tailwinds, homogenization or economic position and economic wealth over time. And so we still believe in that. And given the fact that we have the best bank in the country, over time, it's going to be an option round.

Now we've closed the circle when it comes to sort of some of the core regions. And I think we can now move on to talk about sort of the nominator of the ROTE that we started with by talking about your capital. And you're almost at 13% when it comes to common equity Tier 1 and even after the EUR 1 billion buyback that you've announced, you're still going to have excess capital, which creates an expectation of more to come. How should investors think about your capital return policy going forward?

Again, we talk about it very widely, very openly and very frequently. Basically, we do have excess capital. We don't like to operate with excess capital. Our management reference, our management goal, as you all know, is 11.5% to 12% and then people ask us, isn't that too low as compared to some others who give 12.5% that are even 14s now being quoted. No, no, no, not at all. 11.5% to 12% is a very good range in our view. Why is that the case? Because our requirement is much lower than others. Why is that the case? Because we do have a diversified business model, and we have proven over time that our earnings are very resilient. The standard deviation of our capital accumulation over years. If you take 10 years, 20 years, has always been much better than the rest of the industry. So the variability of our organic capital accumulation is always very good. Our earnings resilience is very good because we have a different business model. So if you look at the requirements, EUR 876 million at the end of June versus the upper end of our goal of 12%, 324 basis points, it is clearly above the 270 points of the same calculation for other banks. So we do have a very -- as compared to our requirement, again, high goal. And as compared to 12%, we do have excess capital. And we continue to accumulate capital because we have 17% ROTE, and we have a very good tangible value per share plus dividends accumulation also. So to cut a long story short, again, we have excess capital. And over time, in alignment with the first question and the first answer in alignment with our commitment to share what we rate with our shareholders, you will continue to give it back. As you know, in June, we announced a EUR 1 billion buyback, we have done EUR 8.2 billion in the last 2 years, only in 2 years, EUR 8.2 billion dividends or share buybacks to our shareholders, you'll continue to give it back, and it will be happening in a relatively stable fashion. So people are asking us, why not do more? We will do it. There's no rush, we will do it. We will deliver accumulate capital, deliver even more, invest, deliver again, we'll do that cycle. But it depends also a bit on the share price, and so we'll do it gradually, over time, we'll get back to our management's reference.

Moving on to asset quality. The provisions in this cycle have turned out to be better than probably any one of us expected. And we've seen a number of banks call for below the cycle cost of risk. So how should we think about your cost of risk and how does anything change in sort of in the current context that you've illustrated?

Yes. So if you go back to 2019 and before, the decade 2010 to 2019, the 10 years in a typical environment, let's say, our cost of risk in a year is around 100 to 110 basis points, depending on the year in that range, 100, 110. In COVID, we had 155, in the last 3 years, we had 93, 91 in that, but the long-time average is 100 to 110. This year, so far, we're at 104. Although I think about it, so it will be around these long-term ranges this year and also in the coming years to come. I was expecting more to be fair. I gave very positive views about our franchise, our strength in different countries and so on but it's a cycle. I've gone through this now multiple times, and I'm Turkish. I see cycles very often, and in cycles, you get cost of risk, very basic. It's part of the nature of the whole thing. And it's a cycle, so when interest rates go up, you have to see a piece of this. Why is it not happening? And why are we confident that it will be relatively decent even going forward? Number one, and this will change, in my view, but the labor markets are very strong. We would have expected some deterioration in the labor market. It's not happening yet. It will happen a bit more going forward in my view. But if the labor markets are strong, again, we are mostly a retail commercial bank, you would see that our NPLs are not going up that much. Number two, again, in the countries that we are in, leverage is positive, leverage situation is positive. I mentioned Mexico, same in Spain and corporate debt over GDP was 120%, 120% on GDP corporate debt back in 2010. Now it's 72% in Spain, huge deleveraging and now lower than Europe. It used to be much higher than Europe. Now we are lower than Europe, same in household debt over GDP. It used to be 80% in 2010, now it's 52%, household debt over GDP. There has been a huge deleveraging. If you have low leverage, as in the case of Mexico, if you have low leverage as compared to Europe or decreasing leverage over time, that helps. So the leverage situation in general is positive. If the labor markets continue to be as strong as it has been, and I do think that this will change slightly, at least slightly going forward. But if you have this leverage situation in your core markets, I think your cost of risk will be okay. But we should all -- as the banking sector be aware that it's a cycle and some implications of that will be coming along.

Of course, Just 12 minutes to go, conscious of timing, if anybody has any questions, that wants to raise their hand that will give me a sense of -- one more question, then we can start opening up for Q&A, please. The microphone, in the middle here.

I'd like to ask about Mexico, please. As you explained very clearly the heart of the franchise success has been the payments business, the current account franchise. Obviously, new bank and other digital banks, but specifically new bank are making a big noise about moving into Mexico. And they've had a very, very big impact on exactly those business lines in Brazil. So I understand the mix cost structure is different to Brazil. But could you help me understand a little bit about how you respond to that new competitive advantage which perhaps is going to go directly for the heart of the success that you've had there over the last 10-plus years?

Thank you for the question, Ian. It is something that is im my -- clear in my radar screen because these type of players because they are very good margins in those businesses and these type of players, fintechs, they go after high-margin businesses. And clearly, it's one of those, and they are pushing a lot. But what I can tell you is that we have been responding to it. We have been clearly responding to it. I will give you some numbers. We try to track this from our own data but not only the players that you mentioned, but there are other fintechs who are pushing hard in the credit card business in Mexico, the total fintech group, including the name that you mentioned, the total fintech group, the number of cards that they emit in a month, we track this. And we also track the number -- the total amount of pesos, the sales that go through those cards. And last year, just one year ago, the total new cards emitted from these players and the total sales that go through those cards was 12% of the market. So, because I wasn't very precise with the communication. All the cards emitted in a month, the month after only the new cards, what percent of that sales come from the fintech group? It was 12% one year ago. And we said we have to respond to this, 12% is not a small number. And now that 12% is 6%. Why? Because some of the things that they were doing, and they were not related to pricing and credit cards. They were about the delivery process, the digital process and so on. To be fair, they were doing a better job than us and we matched, and we delivered. And if you deliver the value prop of a fintech with the things that they cannot replicate, your infrastructure, your ATMs, your call center, your brand then the customer goes with you. As a result, again, if you put your focus into it, you can match it. One other thing around this that 12% to 6%. So there's a clear straight line decline in the number of new cards emitted and in the number of revenue that goes through these cards. You should also know that this 12%, it was like 33% of new cards emitted. So they were basically emitting one in three of new cards a year ago. But the revenue was much lower. So they were low limit basically underbanked segment cards. And given the fact that, that segment is producing higher cost of risk in these type of times, also they're feeling that they cannot do as much. To cut the long story short, I don't know whether the Brazil situation is going to be replicated in Mexico. But what I can tell you is they are trying really hard, and we are responding and the numbers that we see is telling us that as long as you don't give the customer a reason to move out. And we have the pricing capability by customers. We have the value prop capability. They -- you will find a way to compete, you'll find a way to compete.

Any more questions? Here, please. Just...

Just -- could you give me more color about betas evolution this year and the next year? And particularly, how will be the impact in Spain?

I've mentioned that initially in the second question, I think it was, but we are guiding for 20% beta at the end of the year, the spot number, the end of year number. We stick by that guidance. Next year, we will see, so we haven't provided any guidance for next year yet. We will do that at the end of the year. But I gave multiple reasons to continue to believe in that our beta in Spain is going to be lower than the rest of Europe for the excess of liquidity, loan-to-deposit ratio, 89%, I mentioned. And also the fact that customers who are sensitive to prices, they are already enjoying other products like mutual funds. So the large ticket deposit customers are not paid anymore, so the betas will be also relatively low as compared to other markets going forward.

At the back, please.

Yes. One question. It's about the balance of the operation today, revenues and profit. So there's a bias toward emerging markets. Is that something you're comfortable with? Or is it something that you considering changing? And if that's the case, how are you intending to change that?

Well, the more important thing that we look into is, again, the position that we have in the respective market that you are in. So your scale in a market is, in my view, more important than the mix of the countries that you have. But we would love to obviously grow more in Spain and in Europe and in the U.S. We are already doing that, CIB franchise, the Corporate and Investment Banking franchise that we have as compared to our competitors, even kind of multiple geography cross-border banks category, not the big, big investment banks, but even as compared to them, it's relatively small. So we are trying to grow our CIB franchise, that's the way to do it, debit. But if you're asking about M&A and are we going to grow in other countries to balance this and so on, by itself, only this is not a factor. You have to look into multiple things, obviously. And our focus at the moment is purely on organic growth, profitable growth, organic growth, growing in our franchises. At the core, we do believe that our business is a scale business. In that sense, we will focus on the markets that we are in, and we are going to continue to grow our scale, again, in our existing markets.

Are there any more questions? Actually, one related to that last one, and you've been very clear on M&A. As we look at sort of your existing product factories, is there any more products that you'd like to have? Would you like to strengthen any of those, how do you see overall descale? I'm talking about sort of the sort of the lack of management insurance, how should we think about that? Also in the context of noninterest income growth, I think increasingly will be a focus point into next year on [ feasibility ] particularly strong this year. So I think I wonder how are you thinking about sort of the product within the fee business and more generally on it.

So these noninterest income categories, payments, asset management, insurance, those are product categories that we like a lot. I mean I have this strategic plan of 12 very specific initiatives. All 3 of them, all 4 of them, if you also include CIB in that, they're part of that very strategic areas that you want to grow. But to come back to your question of whether we are M&A, you're linked to M&A a bit and so on. We do think that these products are very core to our offering. In areas that we do think that we don't have the competitive advantage, like PNC insurance, we are partnering with others, partnering, creating product factories together. But in general, like payments, like asset management, we do think they are so important for our product offer. We put customer always at the center, which means if there's a better product out there, we are always open to do partnerships and to bring that product to our customers, clearly. But if you're asking M&A and are we going to sell the payments, some of the banks are doing that? The answer is no. Because we do think that having that in-house creates advantages to create a better offer for the customer, creating the systems, linking the systems, getting that information, using the data to create better offers for the customer. There's a very clear synergy there. So our positioning is that we will maintain our factories. But we can always partner with others in any one of them.

So it's the strength of the vertical model. Very clear. Okay. If there are no more questions, I'm going to thank everyone for taking the time to join us and thank you all for taking the time.

Thank you for having me. Thank you.