Beazley plc (BEZ.L) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

November 9, 2020

London Stock Exchange GB Financials Insurance shareholder_meeting 40 min

Earnings Call Speaker Segments

Operator

operator
#1

Hello, and welcome to the Beazley Q3 Trading Statement Call. My name is Molly, and I'll be your coordinator for today's event. Please note that this call is being recorded. [Operator Instructions]. I would now like to hand the call over to your host, Andrew Horton, to begin today's conference. Thank you.

David Horton

executive
#2

Good morning, everyone, and I have with me this morning Sally Lake, our CFO; and Sarah Booth, our new Head of Investor Relations. So what I'm going to do is pick up some of the highlights in the trading statement, and then we'll [Audio Gap] So we've seen good growth in gross written premiums for the 9 months of 16%, and that's driven mainly by rate increases of 14%. And you can see that we've seen rate increases across every line of business. [Audio Gap] exposure growth because we have continued to take evasive action in the more recession-prone lines such as our employment practices liability. The growth we believe will continue into 2021, where we're expecting mid-teens growth again next year in gross written premiums and continued rate increases, but probably not to the level we've seen in 2020. [Audio Gap] next year for the more volatile lines such as D&O, where we have seen great rate increases over the past couple of years. So net premium growth, we're expecting to grow by around 10%. The Lloyd's part of the plan, which is the major part of our business has been approved by Lloyd's and the capital has been agreed for the capital that is in place for that. The plan will obviously be dynamic as it was this year because when we started this year, we didn't know that this was going to happen, and we have moved things up and down [Audio Gap] to be dynamic in 2021. We've highlighted in statement that our COVID-19 claims remain estimated at $340 million, and the second U.K. lockdown has no impact on our event cancellation estimate because we weren't estimating anything to be happening at this point in time, and we have little exposure to the U.K. property and BI, business interruption market. We've estimated our net claims to the catastrophe to the end of Q3 at $80 million net, including reinstatement premiums, which is around our planned loss for the 9 months. We've mentioned before the increase in ransomware claims where frequency increased in 2019, and we continued what we've actually seen in 2020, particularly this quarter, that severity has increased. So the cost of each ransomware claim has increased. What we haven't seen is frequency increase, which is [Audio Gap] of the world being in this lockdown environment. And 3 major things that we are doing to respond to that. We've been looking at and implementing technology to help identify our clients' vulnerabilities and point out those to the [Audio Gap] remediate that. We've also been restricting coverage through managing limits and the market is moving and repricing is taking place. We've been market-leading in Cyber for over 10 years. It makes up around 15% of [Audio Gap] of our book because that's the maximum that we allocated to it, and that includes the professional negligence part of Cyber for software companies. It's very short tail to [Audio Gap] our actions very quickly. And capacity is actually shrinking in this area and the market is moving incredibly rapidly. To recognize the increased ransomware claims we have increased our 2019 and 2020 opening loss ratios to maintain our level of [Audio Gap] reserves. And finally, [Audio Gap] in place for our growth for next year, and we'll be within our range of 15% to 25% as we are usually. That's all I had. Those, in my view, the highlights [Audio Gap]. We -- as always, we have given estimate of our combined ratio because we estimate our combined ratio, not to the exact number. We said that the combined ratio will be around 110% mark for the year. So [Audio Gap] to questions.

Operator

operator
#3

[Operator Instructions] Frist question comes from the line of Kamran Hossain from RBC.

Kamran Hossain

analyst
#4

A couple of questions. The first one is, I guess, on the additional reinsurance spend or kind of the additional reinsurance you're ceding, do you expect this to be on a 1-year basis? Or do you think it will carry on beyond that? My assumption is that once your capital base recovers, you probably will keep a little bit more of that. The second question is on, I guess, on your capital position. What have you factored in on the dividend here? We assume you are flat year-on-year? Comments around that would be really helpful.

David Horton

executive
#5

Kamran, thanks for those questions. The additional ROI spend, we would do anyway, D&O and our financial institutions where the extra ROI spend will be tend to be more capital intensive and more volatile lines. And although the market is moving well for us, we just think it's too risky, keeping all of it grows on our balance sheet. So I'm not sure the overall amount will reduce because D&O and FI tend to be volatile lines and always have been and may always be. So it's purely the fact that it's great to make the most of D&O going up, and it's grown quite a lot in terms -- the rate has gone up for -- will be the third year in a row next year. But it is a volatile line, and we don't want too much of it in case there are further claims because you can get claims in those lines. So I'm not sure it will reduce going forward. On the second one, the dividend, of course, comes out of our capital next year, so it's not within our ratio when we announced at the end of this year because the dividend comes out of capital in 2021. So there's no assumption as far as dividends within that capital number.

Kamran Hossain

analyst
#6

Okay. And I mean, if I was going to follow up on that, I mean, what [Audio Gap] given you've got a great market backdrop, pricing improving substantially. How would you kind of rank the importance of the dividend versus growth?

David Horton

executive
#7

That is a great question. And what -- just on the dividend, what we will do with the dividend for next year is review it when we get to the end of the year, as we always do, and we'll assess that -- it's an almost impossible question to answer because we do want to grow, and we have a great track record of paying dividends. So it's a difficult one to balance. We do want to make sure we make the most of the growth opportunity. We have the plan in place. So we'll tap to assess the capital Kamran when we get to the end of the year and see where we are [Audio Gap] for this year. So by trying to predict what we're going through at the end of the year before we got there, I'm not sure I can do that yet.

Kamran Hossain

analyst
#8

Let's ask you in February.

David Horton

executive
#9

Yes, exactly. That's right.

Operator

operator
#10

Your next question comes from the line of Emanuele Musio from Morgan Stanley.

Emanuele Musio

analyst
#11

Just a quick one on capital. I mean, the market is hardening. Today, you reported a very strong rate improvement across your book. And then you said you want to grow in the mid-teens, but some of that will be ceded to reinsurance, right? So I was wondering whether or actually under which circumstances would you consider maybe to raise more capital to retain a little bit more of those good prices of a little bit more of these good opportunities? I was just wondering. So any color on that would be helpful. And secondly, on capital requirements, it looks like that the Lloyd's has become a little bit more onerous when it comes to capital requirements in the last year or so. And this is partly reflected also in the movement of the group ratio. So I was wondering at which point would you expect Lloyd to take into consideration the benefits of this pricing improvement and maybe reduce its stance in defining capital requirement?

David Horton

executive
#12

Okay. I think that's a really good question. So I think on the FI and D&O, I mean what we do every year with the planning process is try to optimize the overall plan on a net basis. So we look at where the growth is going to be gross. And then we look at how we can come up with the most efficient capital structure every single year, and this is no different in 2021 than it is in any other year. And FI and D&O do have a track record of being very volatile in terms of their claims ratios. And therefore, by default, they tend to be more capital-intensive lines. So our view is we want [Audio Gap] capital intensive lines and make the overall picture as efficient as possible and gives the best return on capital in total. So the FI and D&O we needed to do -- we wanted to do that. And we'll do that [Audio Gap] company was in, so we're not buying more reinsurance specifically to increase or lower our capital position. We're buying more reinsurance to increase our potential return on our capital. And if we look back, and we've got a lot of data on the tracker on FI and D&O, you can see that they are very volatile in terms of where their claims ratios can be at the bottom of the cycle and top of the cycle. So that's important to us. And the gross premium growth in both FI and D&O is going to be considerably greater than 15% gross premium growth [Audio Gap] considerably greater, I mean, considerably greater than that. From a Lloyd's point of view, I don't know, we haven't found it that much more onerous. We have obviously our capital model, and Lloyd's approved our capital model, having had a minimum amount of challenge this year, so that's fine. I think they'll start taking the rate increases. I mean your point is a valid one. I mean they're quite conservative and expect us to be conservative with our capital modeling, so they don't allow initially to take full rate increases through. So I think into next year and maybe the end of 2021 [Audio Gap] increases we're all seeing we will start feeding through more into capital models.

Operator

operator
#13

The next question comes from the line of Nick Johnson from Numis.

Nick Johnson

analyst
#14

Just another question on the reinsurance purchase increase for next year. It sounds like that's mainly -- the change is mainly in FI and D&O. Is that's likely quota share reinsurance? I assume, I just wondered if are there any profit share arrangements in that structure. And also, do you anticipate spending more or buying more excess of loss and cash cover, increasing limits in those areas, for example? And second question, if I may, on casualty claims trends. Could you just perhaps discuss the latest in what you're seeing, for example, in employers liability in health care? And with that in mind, how comfortable you are on your current loss ratio picks for specialty lines, obviously, mindful of the cyber loss ratio pit increase. So it would be good to know whether specialty line is going to plan or whether it's better or worse?

David Horton

executive
#15

Okay. Thanks, Nick. Hope I cover them all. So yes, if we're buying reinsurance for D&O and FI, it's likely to be on a quota share basis. Yes, when you do quota share insurance, you normally have some sort of overrider or commission arrangement, which means you don't end up being penalized for seeding it away. In other words, you end up in a neutral or minorly positive position in terms of a return on capital point of view. So that's a sort of a standard quota share position. From a clash point of view, I think we're aiming to buy very similar cover as we have done in 2020. Although, as you may remember, the clash cover is a certain balance. And then on top of that, there is an extra top-up for Cyber. So there is a [Audio Gap] is a cyber clash than if there's any other form of clash cover. On the casualty claims, we talked, I think, at the beginning of this year about claims inflation, terms of social inflation. We haven't seen any further moves in that. So we haven't seen social inflation tick up during the year. In effect, it's been a reasonably steady year, no major changes in it. On the Employment Practices Liability, I'd like to highlight because we're taking evasive action in case recession from claims come through in that line. So historically, we are still seeing some EPL and healthcare claims in the past because we would always do that, but it's not out of the ordinary to us. But on the EPL, we're trying to take evasive action in case more recession-prone lines come through in the future. So that's our action on EPL rather than worrying about what happened in the past. Obviously, everything is done on a claims-made basis. So we have the opportunity to make evasive action before the claims are made.

Operator

operator
#16

The next question comes from the line of Ben Cohen from Investec.

Benjamin Cohen

analyst
#17

I had 2 questions. Firstly, could you give us a little bit more color in terms of the additional conservatism that you're building into the cyber reserves? What would be the downside risk now given the raised loss picks that you've chosen? I appreciate you said it's a short tail line. So maybe you could put that into context. And maybe in terms of context of what you've seen before when there've been spikes? And the second thing is, could you say anything about the outlook for third-party COVID-related claims, whether your view on that has changed, whether the sort of the IBNR part of what you've already reserved has shifted in the quarter?

David Horton

executive
#18

So Ben, if I do the second one first, there's been no change in the quarter. So we haven't seen anything happen in the quarter that changed our view on third-party COVID-19 claims. It is going to take quite some while to see that appear. And I think we said probably a couple of years before we probably see whether we're going to get anything or not. I mean, what we're doing is trying to model it based on, to some extent, in the last financial crisis. But in other areas, it's obviously not like the financial crisis and therefore, trying to come up with estimates based on what we've seen historically, and that's particularly in health care because last time in financial crisis. [Audio Gap] much but maybe by COVID-19 or may not be. So we've estimated it based on that. So no change. It is going to take a while before that -- before we see anything and we haven't seen anything in this quarter. [Audio Gap] the cyber deterioration for 2020 here on in will -- if it deteriorated further, will go into a reinsurance program. So it's not going to have an impact -- will not have an impact on us going forward. So it will be reinsured from here on.

Operator

operator
#19

The next question comes from the line of Andrew Ritchie from Autonomous.

Andrew Ritchie

analyst
#20

I apologies if I ask a question that's been asked, I've been cut off twice. Just clarify, what have you said in terms of the various moving parts on the reserve buffer in terms of where you think that might land at the end of the year? And I guess, looking forward, given you more or less used the cap budget, you talked about increasing the picks on cyber. Would that lead us to lower our expectations for any kind of normalization of PYD development in '21? Second question, just to clarify, Andrew, you said that the additional reinsurance wasn't a capital management tool, but is that the same as saying your year-end projected capital position assumes no benefit from the increased reinsurance? Could you just clarify that?

David Horton

executive
#21

Yes. Okay. Go on.

Andrew Ritchie

analyst
#22

Third question. I'm struggling -- you talked about optimizing your capital structure. But it isn't -- is it optimal right now to have as much debt in your capital structure, including the drawn bank facilities as you have? And maybe just clarify would the priority not be to pay back some of those facilities as you generate capital? I think as I say, the final question was, can you remind us, I think it's the case that the reinsurance attaching to the cyber book is separate from the rest of the casualty book or the specialty book because one of the reassurance you gave us at the half year on subsequent COVID impacts for casualty or specialty was obviously the volatility protection you have in the reinsurance arrangements there. Has any of that being used up by the cyber claims? And just clarify that, that is what is not the case.

David Horton

executive
#23

Okay. Let me see if I can make sure I cover them all, Andrew, as I go through. So if we go back to the capital management tool, yes, capital management tool is a capital optimization. So we're trying to get the business plan, as I said, ensuring we're managing the actual -- sorry, someone typing as I go along. So we're trying to manage the -- we're trying to manage the overall plan that gives us a better return on capital. So obviously, it is a capital management tool in a way because we're lowering that volatility. What I was suggesting though is we didn't do it to ensure that it stays within the capital range. Because your second point about the optimal capital structure is somewhat different from ensuring we're optimizing use of capital. So we're optimizing use of capital to give us the best return, which is what the business planning does and then the capital structure of [Audio Gap] I feel is a separate debate. And at this point in time, we're comfortable with the amount of leverage we actually have. I think we'd be uncomfortable to take on too much more our capital structure, and we still think there is scope to take on a bit more. So overall, we're comfortable with our debt and [Audio Gap] position. The surplus over actuarial, we always have the challenge with surplus over actuarial when we have catastrophes because we don't have a surplus, the actuary and the business tend to hold the same reserves. So that always has a bit of a dampening effect over surface over actuarial, but our aim of increasing the cyber loss reserves was to ensure we did have a similar amount of prudence that we like having in it. But to be very specific, when we come to the end of the year, we will have that dampening effect as we've had before, where there's a 0 surplus when you look at catastrophe losses because there's very limited information at this point in time on them. And I don't think there'll be a lot more information at the end of the year than there is now [Audio Gap] issue. And the RI, yes, we have a set of some reinsurance, which actually kicks in when the overall loss ratio of CyEx and Specialty Lines goes above a certain number. So the cyber move has nibbled into the -- into that reinsurance, but there is [Audio Gap] left in it. And it's on an annual basis. So there is some reinsurance cover for every underwriting year. And this is already in place for 2021, it's bought on a 3-year basis. I hope that's clear. And I think we need to explain that more clearly, but that wasn't really the aim of the trading statement going to that depth.

Andrew Ritchie

analyst
#24

Okay. That's very helpful. So I guess the point is, though, it's clean for '21 as it were, as in you're resetting...

David Horton

executive
#25

Yes, for 2021. So if the recession claims start coming through on a claims made basis in '21, it's all there.

Sally Lake

executive
#26

And I would just add one thing on the -- just quickly on the recession claims as well, as we're not seeing the recession claims coming through, as Andrew mentioned earlier. The other thing to note that since the beginning of this year, we've been looking at our underwriting in those areas and amending our underwriting expecting a recession to come. And the longer that it takes for those claims to come in the further away from the more impact that re-underwriting has had. So that's something else to note when we think about how a third-party COVID and recession claims act.

Operator

operator
#27

The next question comes from the line of Faizan Lakhani from HSBC.

Faizan Lakhani

analyst
#28

I just wanted to follow up on the recession impact. What's currently baked into your assumptions when you're thinking about the recessionary impact? And I know it is difficult to do so, but could you provide some sort of sensitivity if the recession was worse? What does that do to your experience? That's question one. And question two, sticking to the debt repayment, I mean you said you're happy with where your debt is currently. Do you have any plans to repay that over time? Will you look to maintain that? And I guess for me, a question is, if you do get a horrible year next year in terms of cat or experience, I mean how much financial flexibility do you still have outside of that left through credit? And thirdly, if I may. I understand that the reinsurance purchases were not done because you didn't have the capital to do so, but I'm just trying to understand the economics. If you were to retain that business on your book and increase your pie overall, what would that do to your return of capital if you were to use the reinsurance credit share program?

David Horton

executive
#29

That's again -- let's see if I can remember. The first one was the recession impact. I mean all we can do on the recession front is have a look at what happened in 2008, '09 and '10. And when we look to 2008, '09 and '10, we saw that our opening loss ratios held over that period of time. So we absorbed there was [Audio Gap] loss ratios. We looked at [Audio Gap] of EPL, D&O and professional, found that D&O actually in a recession ended up outperforming [indiscernible] underperformed against our view. But overall, the loss ratios we're fine. So we're repeating that and also thinking through other areas of COVID-19, such as health care. So we're modeling it based on what we've seen historically, although we've never seen a COVID-19 situation. And then, of course, we're tracking it against the claims that are coming in, and we haven't seen anything from the claims coming in point of view, claims that are coming in for COVID-19 have been event cancellation and business interruption claims in the industry generally. Although as I mentioned, we don't have much business interruption cover in the U.K., we have some in the U.S. On the debt repayment front, I mean, everything has to be refinanced on a timely basis. So obviously, the longer-term debt is going to be refinanced whenever it needs refinancing, which is quite a long period of time. The LOC ends up being renewed on a 2-year basis. So we'd look at our LOC usage when we needed to [Audio Gap] by annual basis. And look at whether we should repay or retain at that point in time. It ends [Audio Gap] good value in terms of capital at this point in time. The financial flexibility point, I think we'd look at reinsurance. I mean a great beauty about it at the moment is that the reinsurance market, not surprisingly, is keen to grow with us. So they are keen to have a go at reinsuring some of the lines of business that we are writing at good rates at this point. So there is, in my view, reinsurance around. And therefore, I think that is always a good position to go in terms of the financial flexibility. I think if we get further losses in 2021, it's just going to be yet another [Audio Gap] environment that's taken place over the past few years. So the pricing is just going to continue to go up and up and up because it has to match losses and it's in catastrophes that's relatively short tail and therefore, respond pretty quickly. On the retaining, I don't think we want to retain anymore. This is the point I see I'm not making. We're retaining as much D&O and FI as we feel comfortable to retain. So if we [Audio Gap] our capital stock is going up than the returns it's making. So we're trying to optimize our retention when it's [Audio Gap] portfolio. So we're retaining as much as [Audio Gap] and that applies to other lines of business as well. That's the aim of it is you write the growth, you buy reinsurance to retain as much as you want to retain, which means you're optimizing your overall return on capital by individual line and in total. So although our profits -- our expected profits may go up if we retained more D&O, our potential ROE will start falling because its capital becomes less efficient as we retain more on our balance sheet.

Faizan Lakhani

analyst
#30

But I know you guys like to use the way that you try and manage the pie. But if you were to grow the pie overall, then you can maintain more of that D&O?

David Horton

executive
#31

Yes. No, I completely agree with that, but it's very difficult. I mean, when we look at -- we're trying to grow cargo and hull and property as much as we can, and we're putting in what we think is a sensible growth assumption. Yes, I mean I completely agree with you, we had a company with the pie twice as large. And we make quite so much profit with the same return. But unfortunately, it's not as easy as that because we have to gain that business from some of our competitors who don't necessarily want to give it up. And in some lines, like D&O, it's easier to acquire business at this point because capacity is coming out than other lines of business where capacity is not moving at all.

Faizan Lakhani

analyst
#32

You've achieved growth at lower than rates in some of your lines of business in Marine and property. So I'm guessing there's more capacity to grow those businesses. Is that a case that you don't feel comfortable with where they're pricing out right now or you just don't have the capital to grow in those lines?

David Horton

executive
#33

No. So in marine, we withdrew from U.S. trucking. So we have some negatives where the portfolio has gone to 0 and U.K. Marine is a small marine business. So the marine underlying is growing more than it looks. So we withdrew from 2 lines of business. And in terms of property, it is more aligned to your comment, [Audio Gap] in the past 3 years, we weren't as comfortable to grow it even based on this rate because we believe the rating will be even better in 2021. So we've held back in our property division regarding where growth could be. But Marine is definitely want to -- we've got some negatives in there. So if you took those out and restated, you would see exposure growth.

Faizan Lakhani

analyst
#34

Okay. And sorry, just quickly come back on the recession aspect. I know you guys look at 2008 and the previous financial crisis for your experience, but given your books changed a lot, you have a lot more cyber exposure, a lot more executive risk exposure. Do you think the lessons in 2008 still work or the playbook has changed now and therefore you need to have different methods of dealing with a potential recession?

David Horton

executive
#35

I think it's a great point. You need to -- definitely need to look at whether your book has changed. I'm not sure our executive risk book is actually that much different from 2008, '09 and '10 because over the past 10 years, it's hardly moved. It's growing now because we're seeing rate increases in the 50%-plus range. So I think the D&O book has not fundamentally changed nor is the EPL book changed dramatically. It sort of shrank during the recession, then it grew a bit, and now we're in shrink mode. So I don't think those 2 books, which are very recession-prone have. I don't see cyber as being a particularly recession-prone class. I mean, the main impact on cyber [Audio Gap] not buying it. And of course, if people stop buying it, the exposure disappears as far as we're concerned. So I think growth of cyber in recession is tougher, but I don't see it being a line of business that is going to pick up claims because of a recession.

Operator

operator
#36

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from the line of Iain Pearce from Credit Suisse.

Iain Pearce

analyst
#37

First one was just if you could provide a bit more color around what's going on in the cyber market in terms of how the market is responding to these increased claims trends. I think you mentioned some capacity was coming out of the market. which is a little bit surprising given the sort of historic profitability that we've seen there. So what -- if you could provide some more details around sort of pricing capacity trends in that market, that would be really useful. Secondly, could you just give us a bit of detail in terms of the plans for the growth of the market facility business, sort of what are you baking into your expectations for '21? Because obviously, that has quite a big impact on the sort of gross net ratio. And then just a final quick one, if I can as well. How much does the letter of credit cost you in terms of interest payments? And is there sort of cheaper funding methods that are available that you could use?

David Horton

executive
#38

Okay. Right. So on the -- yes, cyber market, what we're seeing -- what we've been seeing, as I mentioned is increased frequency of ransomware from the beginning of last year, and then the severity is really [Audio Gap] 2020. The market pricing has -- we've looked at the first half of the year. I think pricing was up low single digits. We've seen that shooting into double digits. And our expectation is going to go beyond that into 2021. So pricing will be quite high or the increased price will be quite high next year. But that will -- that is not my view, the only thing the market needs to do. It needs to think about what limit it's giving for ransomware claims because as limits go up, I think the ransomware claims are going up with it. So therefore, I think the market needs to think in terms of reducing the limits, which means the ransomware claims [Audio Gap] will have an impact on whether the ransomware [Audio Gap] So there is a focus on reducing limits. And as I mentioned to you, also focusing on the clients that have the best security in terms of avoiding ransomware or responding to it in the first place. From a capacity point of view, we've always had a view in the cyber market [Audio Gap] a mixture of capacity in there. It's relatively easy market to get into and play in the high levels of the towers, and we have seen capacity come in and out of the market over the past 10 years when we have data breaches, we have capacity come in, then they would get hit with a few data breaches and then it would withdraw. So it's not an unusual trend that when the new version of claims comes into the side market, and that's the excitement and challenge of the cyber market, continue to evolve because claims have changed dramatically since the first cyber policies were written in the 2008, '09, '10 to now and capacity that has not thought as it should into what the risk are, tends to come in and go out. And we're definitely in the process of people being hit by ransomware claims and withdrawing capacity. I feel we're one of the most thoughtful cyber underwriters having been there at the beginning. Our aim is to evolve with the marketplace. So that's what's happening in the cyber market. I think there is more that's going to take place over the next year or 2. It'd be interesting to see how much governments [Audio Gap] what's actually happening inside the market or not, which I think can only help. On the market facilities [Audio Gap] and I think for next year is that is going to grow a reasonable amount. I think we've got growth. It's not a large part of around 25% into next year, something like that. And you're right, because we only retain 10% of that business ourselves. And the rest is a third-party capital business. It does impact the gross to net ratio. The cost of the LOC, I mean, obviously, it's a commercial [Audio Gap]. I don't know whether we disclose that Sally in our accounts anywhere before I say I can't talk about [Audio Gap].

Sally Lake

executive
#39

No, I don't think we disclosed the exact amounts. I mean, generally speaking, LOC's compared to longer-term debt are less expensive, I guess, is what I'd say there. And one of the reason -- one of the things we thought around the LOC is whilst we've got some more longer term debt facility in there, you could only do those in chunks and the viability of those has to depend on how much equity -- your equity has grown. And so we've always thought about using the LOC as a tool in between the debt raises, which is a much more medium to long-term strategy. So that's really the thinking around how we utilize the LOC, but it's a shorter-term.

Operator

operator
#40

The next question comes from the line Paris Hadjiantonis from Exane BNP Paribas.

Paris Hadjiantonis

analyst
#41

Just a small question remaining. Basically, can you discuss a bit the outlook for cat-exposed and what exactly you're planning to do there? Everybody, all of your peers are talking about strong price increases in the cat-exposed areas. But obviously, those areas also consume a lot of capital. So what is your outlook for the cat-exposed business you are underwriting, whether you want to renew or grow the book going into 2021?

David Horton

executive
#42

Okay. So we do want to [Audio Gap] growth will be relatively modest. So if you look at our catastrophe risk appetite for 2021, it is still going to be less than what it was in 2014 and '15. So we don't believe it's back to that sort of level. So we won't be growing it that much. I mean the reinsurance world in my view, did not respond as well as it should have done, cat-reinsurance. And you can see that we've got no gross premium growth in our [Audio Gap] 2020, you should expect to see some growth in 2021, but it's not going to be an enormous amount. So yes, some growth in the cat lines but not a massive amount.

Paris Hadjiantonis

analyst
#43

So just to come back on that, when we're talking about top line growth, I guess we are talking mainly about price rather than volume, right, Andrew?

David Horton

executive
#44

Yes. So there will be some volume growth because we do believe the property markets, as I mentioned earlier on, where we spent this year looking at our appetite within property. And really, we've just done it based on price rather than volume. So we are expecting to do [Audio Gap] growth next year because having another year of price increases, we feel more comfortable about it. But overall, our catastrophe risk appetite is not growing that much, and we continue to buy the same reinsurance programs to manage that.

Operator

operator
#45

The final question today comes from the line of Emanuele Musio from Morgan Stanley.

Emanuele Musio

analyst
#46

Again, sorry, a quick follow-up. Maybe also on the back of a question that Iain asked on letters of credit. If we include letters of credit in the debt leverage calculation, that leverage looks quite stressed. So I was wondering how rating agencies look at these, are letters of credit leading into a rating agency that leverage calculation?

David Horton

executive
#47

Sally, do you know that? Yes, go on.

Sally Lake

executive
#48

So when we look at our leverage, we take into account the amount of LOC that we're using. So when we do our numbers, we take into the [ 2 25 ] that we posted, we don't take into account the backup. So the rating agencies, they actually don't tend to take less of the credit. It's an off-balance sheet situation, but that doesn't mean we don't -- we definitely look -- we look at that slightly differently. But my understanding for the rating agencies that we deal with, they don't take that into account. Obviously, we speak to them about it, but within the calcs that it's ignored.

Operator

operator
#49

We have no further questions coming through on phone lines. I'd like to hand the call back over to your host for any concluding remarks.

David Horton

executive
#50

No, I have no further remarks. Thank you for all the questions today. Obviously, as you know, we're a very transparent company. So please, if you have further questions, you can approach Sally and now Sarah, as our new Head of Investor Relations. Bye everyone.

Operator

operator
#51

Thank you for joining today's call. You may now disconnect your lines. Hosts, please stay connected.

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