Bergman & Beving AB (publ) (BERGB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

[Audio Gap] The Bergman & Beving Q4 2024 Report Presentation. [Operator Instructions] Now I will hand the conference over to speakers, CEO, Magnus Soderlind; and CFO, Peter Schon. Please go ahead.

Good morning, everyone. This is Magnus Soderlind. And on my side here, I have Peter Schon. So welcome to our financial report for the last fiscal quarter up until March 2025. So we will have, as normal, a Q&A in the end, and it's also possible for you to post questions along the way that we will then answer when we have ended this session. So just starting with some highlights from the first quarter. We have experienced still a sluggish market. I have previously said that the best KPI from an aggregated group level is number of employees in the construction and industry sector in the Nordics. And new figures indicate that there has been a 2% decrease in the Nordics. This is a mixture from Q1 calendar figures in Sweden and Finland and Q4 figures for Norway. But overall, this is very representative for how we perceive the underlying market during the last quarter. Despite that, we have increased earnings and profitability and also the earnings per share. So we increased the turnover by 8%. The majority of this is acquisition-driven turnover. We also increased the EBITA with the same figure, 8%, and we were able to maintain the EBITA margin, 9.5% compared with 9.6% last year quarter. And we have now seen the effect of lower interest rate. So the EBIT adjusted has increased 23%. And when I say adjusted, we have adjusted for the goodwill write-down we have made this quarter, and I will come back to that later on. It is related to the agreement of selling Skydda Nordic. We have continued to work on capital efficiency. So we have now increased the profit of working capital, our measurement with 5% units in this quarter and this year. This is a rolling 12 figures. And as I said earlier, the earnings per share, and this is also adjusted for the goodwill write-down has improved to SEK 8.05 compared with SEK 7.15. And we have -- the Board has then also proposed an increase in dividend that we have communicated in the report this morning. And last but not least, we have made an agreement of selling Skydda, the Nordic part of Skydda to Ahlsell, and I will come back to that specifically later on in this presentation. I've said earlier that diamonds are form under pressure. And based on the underlying market development, we still have challenges in the market. Really, we continue to do company by company according to a capital allocation model that is named focus model, where we adapt the agendas based on their profitability, as well as their earning growth potential. So it's really having different agendas for different companies. And some of our companies have actually a good underlying market and good growth possibilities. So it's not about having one recipe for all companies. In some companies, we invest for growth. But in some companies, we need to improve efficiency. So it's really not a standard recipe across all 35 companies. We didn't make any acquisitions in Q4. I would say, as communicated earlier, we are very cautious in making high-quality company acquisitions. So in the Q4, we didn't succeed in meeting those kind of criteria. But on the year in total, we delivered on our acquisition target, i.e., to acquire SEK 50 million to SEK 80 million in earning per annum. And as also communicated, we made 2 acquisitions in April -- the Q1 quarter this year. So I don't see -- and you shouldn't expect any changes in the acquisition tempo we will have going forward. We will still commit to the acquisition target that we have communicated. I mentioned it, we made 6 acquisitions last fiscal year. I will not go through them in detail, but it's a combined earning of SEK 385 million. As communicated earlier, we are focused on acquiring companies with a profit margin above 15% and a profitability well above 45%. That is kind of the group target as such. And if you apply the 15% profit margin on the SEK 385 million in turnover, you will then mathematically understand that we have reached the acquisition target interval that we have communicated for the fiscal year. So if we look at the trend, we now have 21 consecutive quarter with increased EBITA. And last quarter, we increased 8%, as communicated earlier, and we have a CAGR now of 26% over the time period. So we have a positive trend, and the aim is, of course, to continue that trend despite we foresee a continued sluggish market going forward, at least in the next coming quarters. If we look at the gross margin, as communicated earlier and as you can see on the graph, we have improved the gross margin significantly, close to 7%, 8% units during the last 3 years. We have communicated that this is mainly due to we have phased out low-margin, high-volume products. And we have also communicated some quarters ago that we have more or less finalized that kind of effort, and you shouldn't expect any kind of increase or at least significant increase in the gross margin going forward. What you can observe is that we have a little bit lower gross margin in the last quarter, but underlying, we are kind of on historical levels. We have had some new customer onboarding during the quarters that had drive one-off gross margin -- negative gross margin effect. And I will come back to that later on under the Core Solutions division to explain more about that. We continue to focus on growing the own product. And as you can see on the graph now, we are close to the target of 75% set for this fiscal year. We are at 74% now. And I can't see any reason why we shouldn't reach the 75% during this fiscal year, as communicated as a target. So with that said, we had set some targets related to the profitable working capital, EBIT in absolute terms and the EBITA margin. And we have said we should reach 45% in profitable working capital latest next fiscal year-ending March '27. We are now at 31%, and we have had a 5% improvement in [ percent ] unit during this quarter. And as you can see, that is kind of the tempo we had last fiscal year as well. So we now see the effects of the efficiency activities we have taken during the last 2 years. And I expect and we can also see that rolling 3 that we will continue on this improvement path. And I expect that also to accelerate during the next coming quarters and years. So I think still the 45% is reachable as such. We have set the target of reaching SEK 500 million. We ended at SEK 399 million during this fiscal year-ending in March. We have now went into agreement to sell Skydda, and that is an underlying EBIT level of SEK 45 million. So that will, of course, affect the target of EBIT of the SEK 500 million, but we will come back to that later on. And the EBIT margin is 10%. We are now a little bit behind that, but -- and it will be challenging to meet that being that the tough market underlying conditions. But still, we were working ahead of that. And I don't see any reason why the group shouldn't be able -- the potential is there and should be able to reach say 10%. [ But ] for me, it's more like a timing issue now. So with that, I will hand over to Peter talking about earnings per share. That's a nice story.

Thank you, Magnus. It's a nice topic. So I'll be glad to cover that. And as you can see on the graph, it's -- the EPS is continue to increase. It's all-time high this quarter, of course, excluding the goodwill costs. But it has, of course, the underlying EBIT result is the main factor for increasing EPS, but it is also boosted, of course, with a lower financial net. So we have both effects. And we have an increased EPS both in the quarter and the rolling 12. If we look at the inventory level and look at the quarter, we had an inventory of SEK 1,157 million, and it's lower towards last year. Organically, we have reduced the inventory by SEK 80 million since last year. And -- but you can see also it's lower than in Q3. And there is a seasonality effect, where ESSVE is delivering a lot of spring orders to their customers. So if you look on the history, it's normally a bit lower in the fourth quarter. But I'll come back to the cash flow effect regarding that. So even though we have improved or reduced the inventory, we still are not on the ITO levels that we used to have even though it's beginning to get closer. So we'll need to continue to reduce the inventory, but it will be in a slower pace. And as you can see, it has been slower also this year compared to last year. So it's a gradual effect going forward. And if we look at the cash flow, it's lower this quarter by quite a lot compared to last quarter, but it's mainly due to the normal seasonality effect. And if you go back a bit to '20, '21 and '21, '22, you can see that the fourth quarter is a really weak cash flow. So that's the normal seasonality effect. And of course, the improved profitability makes it positive cash flow, but still weaker. If you look at the last 2 years, we had quite strong cash flow, but then we had larger inventory reductions during these periods. And the main reason for the lower cash flow is that ESSVE is invoicing their spring orders, It, of course, decreases the inventory a bit. It becomes accounts receivables, and they pay their accounts payables to the suppliers. So the cash will come into the company in June, July for those orders. So that's the main reason for the seasonality effect. And then even now we had some start orders for ESSVE also influencing a bit on the lower side. And as I said on the previous slide, it will be and has been a bit lower pace in inventory reduction, and yes. So if we continue to net debt, we do have an increased net debt. It's SEK 1,278 million towards -- compared to SEK 1,057 million last year. So it's roughly SEK 200 million. But then we have made acquisitions of SEK 402 million during the year. So a lot has come from our own cash flow. So now it's a net debt to EBITDA of [ 2.3 ]. So it's a bit higher than last year, but still very comfortable. And there's nothing in our debt situation that hinder us to make acquisitions. So it's -- we will continue to do that in the pace that we have communicated. And we do have a very strong pipeline. So we don't see any issues on that side going forward.

Thank you, Peter. I will now go into the 3 divisions specifically. And Core Solutions is still facing a slow underlying market. The majority of those companies is addressing the construction sector, specifically not to a great extent, new build of housing, but still, it's partly reflecting the overall construction industry in the Nordic, and that has been a tough market during the last years, I would say. But ESSVE, who is the biggest company in this division, have made 3 new large customer agreements. And when making those agreements, you need to make a takeback setup, where you actually take back the current supplier and replace them with ESSVE in their retail stores. And this is something that then those takebacks is very difficult to get a decent margin when you try to resell them to other customers. So that is the main reason why the gross margin on a group level, as shown earlier, has been a little bit lower. If we would take back -- if we would kind of not count those takeback effects, the gross margin will be on a previous level on a group level. As earlier communicated, we haven't made any acquisitions in the Q4 quarter, but already in April 16, Core Solutions made acquisition in England, Raintite. They are actually making specific products that you use in when you build or repair big commercial buildings or installations to kind of guide out waters from specific building areas as such. So a very niche company, addressing a very niche market, and this is a little a very profitable company as such and great growth opportunities going forward. So that's a really good acquisition. As you can see, this division increased the revenue by 30% and increased the EBITA by 11% and the EBITA margin is a little bit lower. But if we look at the revenue and the EBITA increase is mainly due to acquisitions then. Then ESSVE had some start-up orders that was delivered to replace those takeback volumes that has affected the revenue as well, but has then also affected the EBITA margin that actually is a little bit lower in this quarter. But once again, this is a one-off effect that we expect to be back on a previous level in the next quarter. If we then look into Safety Technology, the main event here during the quarter was the agreement that was signed on March 23 to divest Skydda, the Nordic companies of Skydda, that's Sweden, Finland and Norway to Ahlsell. So this is a venue with a turnover of SEK 550 million with an underlying EBITA of SEK 45 million. And the reason for us to sell that is that the Skydda is a niche wholesaler within personal protective equipment, but mainly they have been addressing independent resellers because typically, the big reseller have that knowledge in-house. And if you know about the Nordic reseller market, it has been partly consolidated over time. So we think that Ahlsell that we already have a lot of business relationship through our product companies as well. It will -- it's a very good match for the Skydda people, employees and the customers and also for the Bergman & Beving Group because we see some good growth opportunities for our PPE product companies after this deal has been settled. This is still subject to approval from competitive authorities in all the countries, but we expect that to be cleared in June, July. So the EV we got for this agreement is SEK 300 million and a possible earn-out of maximum SEK 80 million. This is something and we have communicated that, that the capital loss is SEK 270 million, which is goodwill related then. I don't know if you like to comment that specifically, Peter, in any way.

No, I don't think so. I think that's the loss we have taken on the goodwill this quarter. So yes, it could vary, of course, to minus SEK 270 million, but around that. So it should be not so negative effect when we do -- when the deal comes through. But then, of course, we do have the restructuring cost of SEK 70 million like we communicated earlier. So it will be an effect.

Skydda has also a company called Skydda International that is selling PPE products outside the Nordic, and that's mainly our own PPE products. And that will remain within the group because that's an important channel for our product companies reaching other countries outside the Nordic. And that kind of -- that company has a turnover of roughly SEK 175 million. So that will remain in the group. But as Peter was saying, after forming this type of new setup, we will have some restructuring cost that is estimated to SEK 70 million. Also, Safety Technology made an acquisition in April, April 4 already, Ontec. It's a Finnish company, making systems for controlling hazard liquids. It's about measuring and making sure that the viscosity and the temperature is in line with what is necessary to prohibit accidents or any failure. And this is a very niche company with very, very good margins. So this is mainly a software company, enhanced by some physical equipment like sensor and so forth. So this is a company with a strong position in the Finnish [ market ] selling to a lot of chemical-related companies, but also selling outside Finland. And here, we see some growth opportunities going forward, specifically outside the Finnish region as such. Also, this division had a revenue increase of 7%, but the EBITA increase is 48%. We had some extra costs during last Q4 quarter doing some changes within this division. So that's one of the explanation, but also that we have a better performance generally across the group as such has helped us to improve the EBITA, mainly due to lower costs, but also related to improved gross margin. So we have here an EBITA margin increase and is now 7.7%. So it's increased by 2% units, even more than that. And this is the division, where we have communicated this should be at 10%. So we are surely but steadily getting to that 10% EBITA margin this quarter. And lastly then, the Industrial Equipment division. Here, we are facing mainly the construction industrial market in the Nordic and where we saw a weaker demand during this quarter, especially in our wholesaler Luna, but also in Teng Tools and the Finnish company, Polartherm, that is selling mobile heating equipment a lot to rental companies. And of course, if the rental companies have a low demand, they typically don't buy new equipment. So this is an effect that is reflecting the underlying market weaknesses. But when the market take off, of course, they will need to order new equipment, and that will then have a positive effect on Polartherm. So here, the revenue was actually decreased to SEK 417 million. And also, the EBITA was down to SEK 45 million compared with SEK 51 million. As I said earlier, lower sales and lower gross margin, but partly offset by lower operational expenses, but was not able to kind of compensate for the sales and gross margin decrease during this quarter. The EBITA margin is still above 10% -- it's 10.8%, but it's a little bit down compared with previous year of 11.1%. I would say we need to see some improvement here in the underlying market for this division to kind of step up and continue to deliver a growth in EBITA and margin as such. So what is the way then to our target, SEK 500 million in EBIT, SEK 10 million in EBIT margin and SEK 45 million in profitable working capital, yes, as indicated earlier, we need to see some market recovery. And now when we look at the market as such, I think we shouldn't expect any kind of recovery until early second half of this financial year. As you know, there has been a lot of increased uncertainty in the market based on what is related to restrictions in trade and so forth across the world. We have a very limited exposure to the U.S. But of course, if this affects the total economy as such, we will also be affected in an indirect way of a slower market recovery as such. But we will continue to what we always do. It's focusing on profit expansion over revenue growth. We will continue to work with our capital allocation model that makes sure we have a tailored approach to each individual company based on their situation. We will continue to support our companies with our Bergman & Beving toolbox to help them to develop dependent on what type of development priorities they have. And we will continue to acquire in line with the acquisition targets we had set and focusing on leading B2B technology company in growing niches. We also have some specific themes. Peter showed earlier the ITO, the inventory turnover that has improved, but we still are not back to the pre-corona level. So that's still a focus, and that will also, of course, release some cash flow over time if we improve. We have some improvement, but it will be a little bit slower. We are taking the low-hanging fruit now. So we really need to kind of work diligent on getting improvements step by step in many companies. But that is a work that we will continue, have a focus going forward. Based on the underlying city market, we still have a tight cost control. We still make some efficiency programs in some of the companies, but we also still try to ensure we're able to capitalize on an improved economic situation in the future. So it's a balance now to make sure that we didn't prohibit the companies to leverage a future bounce back in the market as such. And as earlier communicated, I think you shouldn't expect an increase in the gross margin, but we are really focused on making sure that we protect the margin going forward. So some companies has made price increases during this Q4 quarter. Some will make during this quarter to kind of adjust for cost increases that we still -- they are much -- on a much lower level than they were some years ago. But still, we need to make sure that we adjust according to the changed environment. And we'll also work on the supplier side to improve the agreements and make sure we have good pricing conditions in the supply chain as such. So with that said, I think we are ready for this presentation and open up for some questions.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from Albin Nordmark from Nordea.

Hello, Magnus and Peter. Albin from Nordea here. So basically, just 2 questions from my side. Firstly, employees, construction and industry in Nordics were down 2%, as you showed there, while you had flat organic sales growth. So of course, the material is -- the difference is not really material, but would you say that this is spillover from Q4 alone? Or do you still see yourself grabbing market share in some companies?

In some companies, we definitely grab market share. I mentioned ESSVE and they have made 3 new Nordic agreements with some reseller customers. So they are gaining market share. And I would say we have several more good examples on that situation. We have Cresto, for example, that has been a supplier to Vestas worldwide on safety equipment. They are now starting to deliver to Siemens Gamesa as well. So we have a lot of companies that is gaining market share as such. But we don't see that in the top line figure because the underlying market as such is offset those type of agreements. And ESSVE, for example, you will see that effect on the new customers in the quarters to come. You haven't seen those yet in the figures, and Cresto, for example, in Gamesa, there has been a test order delivered to Siemens. And over time, I expect that volume to increase. So we have a lot of companies gaining market share, but they tend to be in a buildup phase, and you haven't seen the effect on the total as it's partly offset on the weaker underlying market.

All right. That's clear. And for working capital, you tied up some capital here, which you haven't been doing the last year really. But I think every Q4, at least between '17, '18 to fiscal '21, '22, you did that. So would you say that this is back to normal seasonal patterns or anything else that we should take into account?

No, I think it's a normal seasonal pattern, I would say.

All right. And then one last one, just on ESSVE, maybe you mentioned this, I missed it, but the retaking of products, do you expect this to continue in the quarters ahead? Or was it only for Q4?

The absolute majority was taken in Q4. We have some to be done during April, actually this month, but the majority of that effect you saw in the Q4. But there are some millions to take back in this quarter as well.

The next question comes from Zino Engdalen Ricciuti from Handelsbanken.

Just a follow-up on the ESSVE volumes. It was very clear on the gross margin side, but could you maybe quantify on the revenue side from how much that was in this quarter?

It works like this. When you get into those type of new agreements with the new customers, you have to clear what's left in the reseller shelf. And when you take back those, you have a start order that you deliver to fill those shelves out with ESSVE product instead. So that have had some effects on the ESSVE revenue as such. It's not a very, very big number, but it has had some positive effect on ESSVE during the last quarter, yes.

And a question on Safety Solutions. We've talked about this before, I think, that customers have now started to fill up their inventories and that might have had a positive effect even though underlying demand is relatively stable. Would you say that the effect have been taken out in this quarter? Or do you still see that they are undersupplied for the quarter ahead?

No, I think we now see the actual demand, I would say, in Safety Technology before they reduced inventory, but I think now they can't do that much anymore. So now it's more -- we are more, call it, an image of the underlying demand going forward. So yes, it could have been some spillover effect from last quarter, but that's marginal, I think.

Okay. Very clear. And just a question on acquisitions. You wrote in the report that you've taken steps to support faster acquisition pace. Can you talk a bit about what you've done there?

Yes. We have strengthened the divisions with some resources to enable the divisions to work broader and more active on the acquisition space. So we actually added some resources within the divisions to enhance the acquisition work. So we are building for stepping up the acquisition pace in the coming years.

Very clear. And just on the -- on M&A related to the divestment of Skydda, do you feel that you have, so to say, acquisition candidates, which you can relatively quickly bridge the gap? Or so do you say, would your acquisition be relatively unchanged if you would not have made divestments so to say?

I wish I had the answer on that question. I mean, we didn't acquire any companies in Q4. The reason for that was not that there was no company for sale. The reason was that we've chosen not to make any acquisitions because we didn't think they were fitting our acquisition criteria, and the valuation range we have set. So it's very difficult to kind of make a forecast on what we will be able to acquire in the next coming quarter and when we will acquire. But we still have the aim to acquire within the SEK 50 million to SEK 80 million range in earnings per annum. And yes, now we have the capacity. If we close this deal, we will get in SEK 300 million and hopefully some earn-out, and that will strengthen our cash position to make acquisitions. But that not -- with that said, it's not guaranteed that we will be able to close those deal matching those SEK 300 million extra. That could be an ambition, but we will not hampering on the quality of the companies and will not hamper on the valuation intervals that we're willing to pay for. Hopefully, we will be able to increase the acquisition pace, but that is not something we are certain of as of today.

But of course, the increase in resources will make that more probable, but still, it's -- like Magnus said, it's very hard to say what will happen on that side.

It's an upside.

That's very nice. And just a last question for me, the SEK 70 million restructuring charge. How -- can you give any color on the phasing of that? Is it all coming in this quarter? Or will it be when the -- so to say, the improvements have come in?

I think the -- call it, the accounting effect, you can say, I think that will happen in our Q1 mainly. So I think then we'll have to -- even though we have not made the deal, we will, I think, set the assets as assets under sale and things like that due to regulations. And also, I think the SEK 70 million will come there, too. When it comes to the SEK 70 million, part of that is, of course, some coverage for empty space in our logistics facility and [ they will see ] some redundancy costs and some other IT-related costs and things like that. So -- yes.

The next question comes from Ryan Sullivan from Tritax Capital.

Firstly, you are selling off 10% of your operating profit at a multiple of [ 7 ], while you yourselves are valued at 25x. That simply doesn't make sense unless you need the money due to excessive leverage. Is this because you are worried about the gross margin? For the past 3 years, you've operated in an environment of inflation and currency tailwinds that have boosted your margins. Naturally, your gross margin increases when you have been selling inventory purchased at of lower prices. So to the question, what do you regard as a normal gross margin going forward in a more stable inflationary environment? 44%.

No, I think it's very hard to say what the normal gross margin is for us. Since we're doing acquisitions, it's very hard to say what it will be going forward. Even though we do highly profitable acquisitions, their gross margin could be even lower than the group average or a lot higher. So it's very hard to mention a number. So what we're saying is that you should expect it to be fairly stable going forward. That's our best estimate.

Question comes from Emanuel Jansson from Danske Bank.

Maybe a little bit somewhat on the same subject and maybe already answered that, Magnus. But if you were to maybe elaborate or ambition a scenario regarding the sale of Skydda Nordic, what do you see as the primary impact on Bergman & Beving's potential moving forward because due to the sell?

As communicated, I think Ahlsell will be a better owner to the Skydda Nordic operation than we are. They will be able to kind of leverage the manpower and the presence of Ahlsell across the Nordic region. Since Skydda is an important reseller, wholesaler for our product companies within the PPE segment, that will most likely increase the presence of our product companies within the -- in the Ahlsell [ sphere ] as such. So as I said earlier, I expect that to have a very positive effect on our product companies when Skydda is a part of Ahlsell, but to quantify that is very, very difficult. And I think you will not see any immediate effect of that. That will be something that will grow over time. But one important changes that we expect to see quite early is that our product companies across the whole group will be represented at the Ahlsell central warehouses in their different countries. And that will make it a much more present alternative for the whole Ahlsell Group. If you are not in their central warehouse assortment, it's a big hinder for product companies to have a presence within the Ahlsell Group as such. So once again, we expect to see positive effects. They will not be immediate. They will kind of materialize over time, but also to quantify that is way too early and very difficult to estimate. I don't know if that...

And it will not affect. Yes, yes, that was very clear, I think. And you don't expect this to change your mind on your way of doing acquisitions since -- yes, due to this -- you will maintain on the same M&A pattern going forward?

Yes. I mean, we have set the target to acquire SEK 50 million to SEK 80 million per annum. That interval will, of course, change upwards over time when we grow. So I would not exclude when we're at SEK 500 million in EBIT that we will revise those targets and revise them upwards.

Yes. Got it. And could this -- you already have a collaboration or relationship with Ahlsell, of course. But if your own product brands are entering maybe Ahlsell's to a greater extent now, could that also mean that you maybe will have this start orders effect and takeback costs, et cetera, going forward in the midterm?

If you look at our PPE assortment, that assortment is a little bit different than ESSVE. If you go into a reselling store selling fastening product, you will see a big shelf with a lot of fastening products. Within the PPE segment, that is much smaller assortment and so forth. So you will not have that takeback effect in the PPE segment. I would say it's only within ESSVE and the fastening segment, we have those takeback situations. That's not something that is relevant for all our other product companies.

Yes. Okay. Got it. And maybe a last question from my side. I didn't entirely catch -- well, I think it was Albin at Nordea that asked the question, but on ESSVE and the start orders. Should we expect some orders to also occur in the near term? Or is this the main explanation why you displayed a flat organic sales growth in the quarter? Or should we expect this to continue to more stabilize around [ 0 ]? Or should we expect it to return to negative organic growth again in the near term? Or how should we view it?

Yes. We had some positive...

Given that the market is weak, so.

Yes, yes. We had some positive effect of ESSVE during the last quarter due to this replacement orders. So that's partly a reason why we had [ 0 ] organic growth. And once again, the underlying market is minus [ 2% ]. So I cannot promise that we will deliver an organic growth this quarter or even [ 0 ].

Yes, I totally understand.

Yes.

Yes. Totally understand that.

There are no more questions at this time. So I hand the conference back to the speakers for any written questions and closing comments.

Yes. Thank you. We received some questions, and I think 2 of them we might have answered already regarding the takeback and so on. But we do have one, whether we see any challenges or uncertainties regarding the tariffs on specific portfolio companies.

No. We communicated in the report that we only have 2% of our revenue in the U.S. So we have a very, very limited exposure there. Some of that volume is going to the defense industry or defense of the U.S. And to my understanding, it's still unclear if those orders will be affected by the tariffs as such. So it's still a little bit uncertain. But once again, it's a very limited volume. It's about SEK 100 million per annum roughly that is going to the North America. And some of that is actually also produced or delivered from the U.S. So it's even a smaller figure that is actually imported in the U.S. from our companies. So I see for us, it's a very limited kind of issue that will not affect the group as such.

Directly at least.

Yes. Directly. Yes, once again. Yes. We don't know the effect on the underlying market in Europe. But if we look at the tariffs and the volumes going to North America, that will not have an effect on the group level as such.

Good. Thank you. And I think that was it for today.

Thank you very much for listening, and looking forward to talk to you next quarter.

Thank you.