BioMarin Pharmaceutical Inc. (BMRN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

September 16, 2020

NASDAQ US Health Care Biotechnology conference_presentation 34 min

Earnings Call Speaker Segments

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#1

Hey, guys. I'm Ellie Merle. I'm one of the biotech analysts here at Cantor. Very happy to have BioMarin here with us today at the Cantor conference. Guys, thanks so much for joining us here. With us from BioMarin is Hank Fuchs, President, Worldwide R&D; as well as Brian Mueller, Executive Vice President, Chief Financial Officer. Thanks so much for joining us today.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#2

Maybe before I dive into questions, maybe, Brian, can you frame for us, not starting with Valrox, where we are with the base business and your confidence in sort of the sustainability and long-run sort of cash generation from this business?

Brian Mueller

executive
#3

Yes. Thanks, Ellie. Thanks for having us, and thanks for the question. So that's one of the key, I think, considerations, especially after the ROCTAVIAN complete response letter in the U.S. It's to remember the health of our base business. So we're just a few weeks away now from reporting on the third quarter, and we'll give our outlook for the rest of the year. So we'll ask you to stay tuned for more details there. But if you've been tracking the top line story over the course of 2020, we were originally planning to achieve approximately $2 billion in revenue. Now that did include a small contribution from ROCTAVIAN because we were hoping for an approval, but it was mostly the base business. And we will expect that the base business is going to report over $1.8 billion in revenue. And that is continued growth of some of our longest time brands in Naglazyme on the market for over 15 years now but still growing; Vimizim closing in on 10 years in a couple of years and growing, that was 2014; and then launching Palynziq, which is still launching in both the U.S. and Europe. So the health of the base business is intact. We had a modest COVID impact that we adjusted for back in April when we reported Q1 and maintained that same COVID adjustment, if you will, back in early August when we reported Q2. So again, just a few weeks away from Q3, but base business is doing well and long-term prospects remain very strong. We view the ROCTAVIAN complete response letter as a delay, but the commercial prospects haven't changed, just potentially pushing out that revenue curve a bit, but we've got vosoritide hopefully coming next year as well. So commercial business, a change in timing but remained strong.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#4

Absolutely. And thinking about the potential vosoritide launch and also the review process, how should we think about the potential for an AdCom? I know there already was an AdCom around end points, but just in any initial discussions. Do you have any sense for whether this will happen for vosoritide?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#5

I mean I have senses, but they're kind of on both sides of the equation. Like you just mentioned, they've already had an AdCom, but they're a relatively conservative review division. But they have approved things on the basis of AGV and may not need additional advice to interpret an AGV, but they're a relatively conservative review division. And also, the agency has kind of moved away from AdComs and not just because they're virtual. But I could see an AdCom coming up again here because I think they really like to debate these things. They don't -- the -- I think one of the key questions of the review will be on the natural history data comparison because our longest-term data is the 5-year treatment data that we have. And to know how much height gain that you get as a consequence of 5 years of vosoritide, you have to know what an untreated person looks like. And the randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials and p values, the agency is falling off a log on. Natural history comparisons is still a bit less scripted in terms of the agency's playbook. We think we've done a really good job, and there isn't really anything to discuss in the Advisory Committee, but sometimes the agency wants to pressure test things, set standards. So I don't know how to -- I mean I had a lot of facts, Ellie. I don't know how to balance them out and make a prediction.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#6

Yes. No. I know. It's always hard to predict things particularly with the FDA. And I guess just in terms of understanding the long-term implications of annual growth velocity being increased to long-term health outcomes like the FDA might be kind of holding it on, I guess what do we know? And what data do we have? And I guess what are maybe some of the outstanding questions that we don't know from the natural history?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#7

Well, I mean, I think the -- I don't know if it's the thing we know but that if you take an individual who is older than 5 and give them a year of vosoritide, you can document an improvement in AGV, but it's very difficult to document improvements in functionality given a relatively short period of time and given how late you've started within the course of their condition. We have ongoing a study in patients under 5 years of age, and we had to kind of approach that younger age sequentially. So first of all, we couldn't start the under 5 study like right away. Even though everybody recognized the unmet need severity in the under 5 population, agencies wanted to see safety data in children over 5 before you treat children who are under 5. So as a consequence of that, we have much more mature data on children over 5 than children under 5. And it will take those kinds of early interventions to document, I think, the -- in a few more years to document the improvement in functionality or proportionality that I think people are hoping and expecting to see. And further that the under 5 program had to itself be chunked into 3 sequential cohorts. So we started demonstrating the safety in pharmacology in children 2 to 5 years of age and then in children 6 months to 2 years of age. And now we're enrolling the last group of children 0 to 6 months of age into a proper clinical trial 1 year in duration. We finished the enrollment of the first cohort and the second cohort. And the third cohort is imminently going to finish -- we believe is going to finish by the end of the year. So a year from now, roughly, we'll have data on short-term efficacy, 1-year treatment efficacy in children under 5. And I think that's where we're going to really start to see the profound benefits accumulate and be able to see that happen in a shorter amount of time.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#8

Absolutely. What parts of these data will be submitted during the review as you maybe generate the data from the first and second cohort?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#9

So the plan today -- well, plan today, not -- the submission happened with safety data from cohorts 1 and 2, not unblinded efficacy data only. And the FDA's rules about review are the application can only be considered to be complete if it has everything in it at the start to make a review division -- decision. So kind of by definition, the agreement that we reached at the pre-NDA meeting was they don't need efficacy data from the under 5 cohort. Now whether they request that during the review is a whole different matter. But they are at least starting out, believing they can make a yes/no decision at the end of their review process without the efficacy data from the under 5 population. And this was heralded for them, by the way, by the Advisory Committee, who basically said you're going to find yourself in this position just because of the lag of starting treatment in children under 5 relative to starting treatment in children over 5. So their advice was you should be prepared that people are going to extrapolate because the bigger unmet need portion is in the under 5 population and all you'll have is safety data. So the fact that the agency agreed to the pre-NDA meeting to accept the submission absent the full data under 5, I think, bodes well for the review.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#10

Absolutely. And so you will be unblinding each cohort -- you're willing to unblind until you have all cohorts of data?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#11

That was always the plan because the reason for dividing them into cohorts pertain to potentially differences in pharmacology, not necessarily differences in effectiveness as a function of age. And in fact, what we learned was that the younger you are, the higher the administration you have to give. Your heart rate is a function of your age, so the -- and the exposure of the drug is a function of the heart rate. So when you're very young, you have a very high heart rate, you eliminate the drug faster and you need more drug. So we've established equivalent pharmacology of exposure between the 3 different cohorts. And now we -- the original plan was to pool all of those for efficacy analysis.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#12

Got it. Makes sense. And just going back to what you mentioned in terms of like the FDA wanting to understand, really, the natural history comparison for the long-term growth outcomes, I mean what do we know from the data so far -- in the long-term data from the Phase I/II in terms of maybe like long-term outcome benefits outside of just being taller?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#13

Yes. So this is a really key piece of information. What was known at the time in that 2018 Advisory Committee was that there was a gentle downslope in annualized growth velocity in children over 5 years of age, but it was described at the population level. And so that was one known. Another known was the absolute increase in AGV from pretreatment baseline. So in the first 6 months, it was here. The second 6 months, third 6 months, fourth -- and you've seen these data over time. What we did last year is we took an adjustment. Instead of comparing the pretreated baseline, we used the emerging data on the slope of decline to show that the difference in the outer years was not an attenuation of the effect of vosoritide but was actually a constant effect of vosoritide against the background of slowly declining growth velocity. So we had a good inkling about this from prior publications. But what we were able to do between last year's R&D Day and the submission -- and the pre-NDA submission was conduct a much more vigorous degree of analysis at the patient level, matching by age and gender, treated patients to untreated patients to construct a picture of what the expected untreated rate of decline was and compare that to the 10 patients that we've had in the program for 4.5 and 5 years. And we really just moved through that with the agency. I mean that was a lot of good stuff. So that's now known to us, and it's going to be a subject of a review of them -- by them. But it's really the sweet spot of what they were asking for when they asked us for a contemporaneous natural history data. They didn't mean like in a peer-reviewed publication. They meant at the atomic or patient level so they can do matching between our treated cohort and the untreated cohort.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#14

Absolutely. Yes, that seems like a very powerful comparison to make. And outside of looking at height and growth curves in that comparison, are there other maybe more qualitative metrics? I mean, I know it's hard to put up [ numbers ] precisely, but things like surgery or spinal complications, any trends like that emerging as you do this comparison?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#15

Emerging? Yes, I mean there are some emerging things that we're observing in the data overall. So for example, there is a relationship between quality of life and your baseline statural -- degree of statural impairment. But there's more variability there than there is treatment effect in a very short-term period of time. So I think it -- we actually saw a similar kind of a thing in our Vimizim program actually, where the pivotal trial was just a little bit too short to capture the full functional benefit of the effective treatment and you have to go longer. So we see a similar kind of thing happening here, which is, again, that there's a relationship at baseline before any treatment between your height and your functional independence, a small effect of that during the pivotal trial but over time accumulating more dramatic effect on functional outcomes. So the program is sort of playing out as kind of we anticipated it might. That is to say the most sensitive indicator of the effect on stature is going to be in the AGV, which is why there's so much regulatory precedent for approval on AGV and no real requirement for demonstrating these other functional outcomes because the functional outcomes are so tightly linked to the statural impairment that people don't really doubt that if you can improve statural, you'll improve outcome.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#16

Got it. That's certainly an important link for sort of the field to recognize in this submission. Turning to Valrox. Sorry, I know you guys have been dealing with like a lot of questions on this lately. But in terms of thinking about -- now that we're very much focused on this Phase III readout and thinking about what should be looking for in terms of an annual bleed rate reduction, I guess, and it seems like the run-in was a bit higher than you had powered for, I guess, 4.8 versus the 3 to 3.5 assumed in the power rate, I guess what's the smallest decrease in annual bleed rate after 1 year that could still drive a stat sig study? And how should we think about also, outside of just stat sig, what you would view as good data?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#17

So 4.8 to target -- I mean sort of 4.8 is the baseline, 1.5 is the target. Could 2 be significant -- could 2.25 be significant for 2? And 2.75, could that be statistically significant? What's the smallest number? I actually don't know it off the top of my head. It's probably somewhere around 2 or 2.5. But what that means -- I think a different way of looking at this is to really fully understand what power means. So 1 minus the power is the chance of the difference being as large as 4.8 versus 1.5 but having an inability to discern that there is truly a difference statistically. So 1 minus that power is less than 1% in our case. The chances of there being that magnitude of an effect on bleed and us missing it for statistically random reasons is less than 1%. So then what's your confidence that -- so 4.8 is a solid number. That's the number we're going to compare it to. It's not going to vary any longer. It's 4.8. What's the chances that the bleeding is 1.5, 1.8, 1.9, 2.0? Well, in the 3 studies that we've done -- in the sort of 3 cohorts we've looked at, it's always been 1.5 or below. So unless the failure rate is astonishingly higher -- and I mean it's got to be a lot higher, we should be in a very comfortable statistical zone.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#18

And in terms of physicians interpreting these data, especially in the context of Hemlibra, what degree of reduction do you think would really raise maybe physicians' eyebrows or would you see as highly meaningful and impactful from a commercial perspective?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#19

Well, I think you got -- you probably -- it's all like the cancer survival numbers. You got to kind of meet to -- keep up with the Joneses at least numerically. So I mean, I think you've got to be in shouting distance of 1.5 in the first instance. But if you're -- the other key parameter that I think people are going to keep an eye on are the proportion of patients who are having 0 bleeds or 1 bleed, maybe 2 bleeds, call them prophylaxis success stories. The proportion of those patients who are prophylaxis success and free of prophylactic therapy becomes a really important number because the -- as good a drug as Hemlibra is and it's an incredible drug in the inhibitor population, it's a great drug in the non-inhibitor population, but it's still -- because -- compared to where you came from, right? So -- but compared to a fulsome life in hemophilia, emicizumab still does require chronic administration. The longer the interval they use and frequency, the higher the propensity to have breakthrough bleeding. And so what you'd really like to imagine is the state of being 0 bleed, 0 prophylaxis is a much better health state than low bleeding on Hemlibra. So if you start to think about -- imagine a Kaplan-Meier curve that says over time, what's the 0 bleed, 0 prophylaxis rate? So the basis of our Phase III -- Phase II study, that's 86% in the 6e cohort at 4 years and 85% in the 4e cohort at 3 years. It's 95% in the Phase I cohort at 6 months. There's a small amount of attenuation from 6 months to 1 year if you look at the trajectory of Factor VIII curves. But losing as much as 6 units of Factor VIII a year, the proportion of patients who are going to be going back on prophylaxis over time is going to look more like the 4e and 6e group than it's going to look like anything else. And so you could be looking at -- if you -- again, you mentioned the Kaplan-Meier, 0 bleed, 0 prophylaxis proportion of patients, that could be like not hitting 50% median time, median durability. That could look like 7, 8, 9, 10 years. We actually showed this -- Dr. Marks actually, the Head of the CBER, asked us this question during -- on the day before the complete response letter, and we were looking at these low S curves, and I know you've seen black is the low dose, 4 years of exposure from the Phase III study -- from the Phase I study, gold is the 6e dose from the Phase I study. And he said, "What do you project the trajectory after your Phase III results to be?" And we said, "Well, we didn't put a lot of modeling data in the submission because we thought that the set of strength of evidence was so good and it wouldn't even seem necessary." But it looks like it's about -- what he said, he interrupted the -- "It looks like it's going to be about 7 or 8 years before the population is as low as 7% or 8% -- as low as 5% to experience breakthrough bleeding of any meaningful degree." So I think somewhere in the agency is a belief that 0 bleed, 0 prophylaxis is -- to get out to meaningful loss of durability, you're talking about a lot of years.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#20

Absolutely. And it seems like that's highly meaningful to patients. Outside of us all squinting at the Factor VIII expression percentages, it seems like prophy is highly impactful to patients. And just, I guess in terms of the agency, I mean it seems like you had some discussions right before you got the CRL with them and...

Henry Fuchs

executive
#21

Day before.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#22

The day before, and this is still quite a surprise. I mean I know everyone has asked you a thousand times what happened. But I mean it seems like maybe the biggest surprise is kind of like that we can't interpret the Phase III durability from the Phase I/II because of maybe differences in the trial. What are like -- what do you think the key differences that they take issue with are between these trials?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#23

Well, what they told us was that the differences in the Factor VIII expression at weeks 23 to 26 between the Phase II and the Phase III study precluded them from projecting the durability -- sorry, the trajectory of Factor VIII expression and precluded them from demonstrating a threshold level above which you need to be to achieve bleeding. So that's what they said was the underlying mechanism. What's a little hard to understand is how does a future trajectory of a surrogate in a context in which we have incredibly low bleeding, how much that really impacts benefit/risk today? How much does the inability to describe a fact, a threshold level preclude a decision today? I mean the statement that we made on that day before was we can't establish a threshold because we don't have enough patients who have had breakthrough bleeding after Factor -- after gene therapy to establish where that threshold is. So that's the part that I think we need to get into, sort of how did that difference translate into a benefit/risk statement that caused us to issue a complete response letter, how did that difference translate into a recommendation for a 2-year study. And I think until we have just a lot more dialogue with them, we're really not going to know what itch there is to scratch because they haven't shared any of the underlying thinking. As unbelievable as that sounds and as many times it's been asked, it's worth just re-reminding everybody, a lot of times, in a complete response letter, it's the result of a lot of back and forth during the review, and you usually have a pretty good sense of where the itches are to scratch. But in fact, we never -- we have not had a discussion with senior management present from April, at which time it was indicated there are no problems in the application, no clinical issues, no need for an Advisory Committee, and the August 18 CRL date. And the only interaction that happened was the day before, and CRL was obviously written the day before. I mean it was well written by the time that we got it the next day. So there has been no dialogue. So part of the challenge of figuring out what itch to scratch is that we're almost starting back from the beginning to try to follow along with them of how you got to these decisions. And it's often in that dialogue that you can lay issues to rest and -- through labeling or post-approval studies, et cetera. So we're just going to be beginning that process, unfortunately, now after the CRL is received. And difficult to control the schedule of that because it sounded like the agency has great resources or nothing else going on.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#24

Interesting. So I mean in your view -- and I know I'm asking you to guess, at least it seems like you don't have a ton of clarity given the relatively limited interactions since April, what -- do you think it's an issue with the different levels of factor expression seen between the studies or issues with the design?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#25

No. The design piece hasn't really come up, I mean except that the 2-year versus 1-year recommendation, but we don't know how that pertains to anything in particular. The chance of the study -- given the power of the study, the chance of the study being negative in 2 years, given it being positive at 1 year, is incredibly low. I suppose maybe they have some story in their head that the factor expression was going to fall off a cliff after 1 year. But I don't know what their biological basis for that would be because we've shown the state of the vector. In vivo is the same after the Phase III as it was after the Phase I/II. And it may just be a simple matter of they're just fundamentally uncomfortable making a decision on the basis of small data set given the large data sets around. You also have to appreciate that we started this program when Dr. Gottlieb was the commissioner. And it often happens when the innovative commissioner leaves that there's kind of a reversion. And so we could also be thinking about that, too, and that we're just caught in a pendulum swing. And the good news about that is even if the pendulum swung to conservative, we have 134-patient Phase III clinical end point adequately powered study coming around the bend. So hopefully, we can overcome that concern about a relatively small data set in a conservative regulatory climate.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#26

Absolutely. I mean it's something big enough. So we'll see that data. And in Europe, I guess given that we're getting these data top line in the first quarter, what's your confidence around being able to finalize the European submission by the end of the first quarter next year? And then also just level of confidence that Europe will come back and say can we have 2 years or 3 years of data?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#27

Yes. I recently had confidence that the Europeans are going to be fine with the 1-year data driven by the fact that they've said that in writing. And given that at the start of the application, we talked about the filings -- well, at the start of the program, we talked about the -- because we had prime designation in Europe. We talked about the Phase III programming and having 2 components, a fast component to make available an innovative breakthrough therapy on an interim analysis and a full approval. And the longer that time interval becomes, the more motivated the health authority is to make that advance available. The shorter that interval is, the more they're going to rely on the small data set. So when we submitted, they were asking about timing of the availability. We didn't know what our full enrollment time line was going to be. We told them what we thought our best guess was, and they accepted the application. But unfortunately, they got off to a relatively late start due to COVID. They also have another thing. The EC commission approval on the back end erodes 2 further months of the time line, such that they were really looking at authorizing the application on the day the Phase III last patient was out, and that was just too close. So I don't think their issue really is the -- what -- because their issue is you were landing right on top of the availability of the 1-year data. And as far as the mechanics of the resubmission, I mean that's still under discussion with the EMA. I mean we're hopeful that they can extend the review cycle and we can provide the 1-year data and we can get across the finish line sooner. And I think that's going to be, honestly, reasonably informed by the data itself. So I wish I could report clarity on expected time lines other than to say the absolute worst global case in the world is this is a 2022 launch. A reasonable case in Europe is a 2021 launch. And we're working to try to get both of those as early in those 2 cycles as we can. And obviously, the FDA one is a bigger one because it adds more of the time to the review clock, the 1-year date again being around the corner.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#28

Yes. I mean it seems like we'll get some key updates next year on both fronts. And then I guess just kind of turning to sort of financial sort of pipeline perspective. A common question I get is around like the long-term sustainability of the enzyme replacement business. And I know Brian, we started off talking about this. But a question I get from investors is like what's the risk of gene therapy competition long term? And even if there aren't direct competitors, say, top of mind today that are near term, what's your sort of willingness and capacity to invest in, say, gene therapy programs to defend this business? And how do you sort of think about this long term?

Brian Mueller

executive
#29

I can start with maybe some of the commercial prospects and let Hank fill in with some scientific and R&D perspectives. But first of all, what we've seen in our own ERT franchises, as you indicated, I made comments earlier but we see this with other orphan biologics in our space, there is often a long commercial runway after even loss of exclusivity. And that's largely due to, a, pretty large barriers to entry that the manufacturing of these recombinant human proteins is very complicated, very costly that requires a significant amount of upfront investment and process development, not to mention just raw manufacturing capacity as well as the commercial prospects. I mean these are not $1 billion, $2 billion biologics that are super attractive to the biosimilar market. These are small, single-digit $100 million products. And so when you look at what the cost investments manufacture and then the fact that selling price would be marginally less, it's a smaller pie to share among biosimilar competition. And I take that forward to even some of the small molecule competition, but those have lower manufacturing costs. So the point is with gene therapies having a higher degree of investment for research and development to get approval, these are really small indications for gene therapy. And so we're watching it closely, and there are some early-stage development programs. But we think the barriers to entry are pretty high. And the success of our commercial enzymes is great in the marketplace both from a commercial standpoint and for impact on patients' lives. So we're not seeing that as a large threat, definitely in the near term. Hank, anything you want to add?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#30

The only thing I'd add is -- yes, the only thing I'd add is however tenable a business case might have been before the ROCTAVIAN CRL, it just got a heck of a lot harder post CRL. I mean what -- how are you going to do a program that meets the FDA's durability for clinical outcome if you have only 1,000 patients globally? And by the way, I used 1,000 patients because that's our Naglazyme number. That's all there are.

Brian Mueller

executive
#31

Yes. And then if you do the filter for who might be eligible for a gene therapy within that ultra-rare population, it's even smaller.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#32

Yes. Absolutely makes sense. And quickly just on PKU. I know you mentioned your communication plan is to disclose when you move from escalation to the expansion, WHICH is the registrational phase. Just based on your preclinical work and sort of initial dosing and I guess maybe a time frame to dosing the first patient in the study, how should we think about the time frame for when you might get to the expansion phase?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#33

Influenced by 2 things. One is when we can restart and how effective that restart is, which is one clinical site or can we get a few clinical sites up and running. And we're feeling pretty good about that. Clinical research centers are reopening, and we have IRB approvals and contracts and revised consents to deal with COVID, et cetera. So we think that initiation of dosing in the study is around the corner. And then the second key variable to -- in terms of time to that announcement is going to be how many dose escalations we have to go through. And the reason that's important is because there are safety checks along the way. So the more dose escalations we need, the more safety checks we have to go through. Now we're starting at a dose that we believe is pharmacologically active based on preclinical studies in nonhuman primates and mice. So it's possible the first dose level will be great, but it's also possible we could go to a second or a third dose level, and we just have to determine. So that's a bit of an unpredictable -- and so those -- the front end piece, we feel more confident about. The back end piece, we feel reasonably confident about, but real data is going to change our confidence level.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#34

Absolutely. And just last question on gene therapy and on manufacturing. Now with ROCTAVIAN being potentially pushed out, but you do have sort of world-class manufacturing capabilities, what's your perspective on potential ways to monetize these capabilities? Is that something that you're thinking about?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#35

Develop new assets, invent, develop, register and commercialize.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#36

Before we see data or before those products launch, so like in the near term, or these should not?

Henry Fuchs

executive
#37

Yes, yes, yes. No, we've got PKU gene therapy coming up. We've got HAE gene therapy coming up. That should conceivably fill our facility. We did a licensing transaction with DiNAQOR. That's going to spin out potentially 3, 4 different gene therapy assets. We are bringing our pilot facility online so that we can be iterating more constructs to get into some harder-to-treat gene therapy conditions. People have asked us about being a gene therapy company, and I think my answer has always been, well, let's get the first one across the finish line before we use it. And now you see that -- your question gets right at the heart of that. But I think we have reasonable confidence that we're going to get there, just a little bit of a delay. And the prospects for benefit for things like PKU gene therapy and HAE are not really affected by this discussion that we're having with -- in fact, if anything, they're enhanced because they have a high clinical bar, and we think that we can achieve those high clinical bars with PKU gene therapy and HAE gene therapy. So we're not ready to drop everything and say we're a pure gene therapy company, but at the same time, I don't -- in acknowledging there's been a setback in our gene therapy programs, we still remain pretty confident about gene therapy and don't feel like we need to monetize the manufacturing asset by taking on other people's programs. We have a pretty good track record of developing and registering, even acknowledging, as I said, this current setback.

Eliana Merle;Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.;Analyst

analyst
#38

Got it. Well, thank you, guys, so much for joining us. Great to hear your perspective and all the updates. Really appreciate the time, and great to have you.

Henry Fuchs

executive
#39

Likewise. Thanks, Ellie.

Brian Mueller

executive
#40

Thanks, Ellie. Thanks so much for having us. Good to see you.

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