BirlaNu Limited (BIRLANU) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the HIL Limited's Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Mit Shah from CDR India. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Shah.

Thank you, Michelle. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to HIL Limited's Q4 and FY '24 Earnings conference call for investors and analysts. Today, we have with us Mr. Akshat Seth, Managing Director and CEO of the company; and Mr. Ajay Kapadia, CFO. We will first have Mr. Akshat Seth making the opening comments, and he will be followed by Mr. Ajay, who will take you to the financial perspectives. Before we begin, I'd like to point out that certain statements made in today's call could be forward-looking in nature, and details in this regard are available in the earnings presentation, which have been shared with you earlier. I'd like to invite Mr. Akshat to present his views on the performance and strategic imperatives that lie ahead. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you, Mit. Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining in HIL's FY '24 and Quarter 4 Earnings Call. As always, it's a pleasure to interact with all of you and share our perspectives on how the business is evolving, shaping up and what the future goals for us. In today's comments that we'll make sure -- I think the idea is to give a broad overview of what are things to watch out for, but also talk about how the quarter and year has panned out for us, what have been some wins coming out of it and what are areas that we'll continue to work on to get to the kind of growth trajectory and profitability that we have been talking about over the last few calls. So for us FY '24 will be remembered as the year where we laid the foundation of, what we call, internally as reimagined HIL. We've reviewed our growth push in line with our strategic plan and ambition to be a USD 1 billion company over the next 3-4 years. We've come out of the year with a strong reiteration that we are on track for that ambition. Just give me 1 second -- the acquisition of Topline, the pipes company in East India last year or early part of this financial year, and the resulting doubling of our pipes and fittings business was a major milestone. We have changed the paradigm of our branding efforts and reenergized our product innovation engine. Value mining to enhance profitability has been established as a key organizational priority. In fact, as an example, we've run a detailed cost diagnostic in the last quarter of the previous financial year. We've identified and we are now running a program on 2 areas, logistics and power and fuel has focused pockets of opportunity and more will follow. All of this is designed towards creating a meaningful impact on the profitability side. Our most decisive steps have been towards building the organization, which can take us forward over the next 3 to 5 years. We have strengthened our leadership team and our frontline teams. We are moving towards a digital led way of working with implementations on the SAP side, SFA, CRM, loyalty programs and in analytics platform. And we are building a culture of excellence, which is driving for superior results and outcomes in every area that we are engaged in. All of these steps, I'm sure, point to an exciting FY '25 and beyond for HIL. Now if we go across various geographies and segments, for HIL India, we delivered steady performance in FY '24 with robust volume growth across most of our product segments. So that's been one key feature to look out overall volume growth across most of our product segments, and we'll talk in a little more detail about it. Overall, we reported a revenue of INR 2,231 crores for the year and INR 534 crores for the quarter, which is about 4% higher than previous year. This was achieved in the context of what we felt and experienced as a modest demand scenario and a situation where competition has intensified. Hence, pricing pressures remained throughout the year, including in our polymer business where multiyear low PVC prices presented an additional level of complexity. However, our relentless focus on driving operational efficiencies and continuous improvement in cost structure meant that we have improved our profitability across most of the segments through the year. At Parador, we reported a revenue of INR 1,144 crores for the year and INR 318 crores for the quarter. These are all euro numbers translated to rupees. Parador in FY '24 presented a story of opportunity amidst adversity. The recessionary macroeconomic conditions and weak consumer sentiment resulted in a near-meltdown in the construction activity and flooring demand in our core European markets. In this environment, we doubled down on our efforts to gain market share by expanding our playfield to commercial segments, agile pricing, restructuring our sales teams, seeding new markets and on product innovation. For instance, to be ahead of the curve, we have launched [ 64 ] new SKUs, that's nearly 15% to 20% on top of what our existing portfolio was. And this was launched in a major in-house customer event in March '24. We also maintained relentless discipline on cost and working capital to ensure lean operations. In fact, our inventory is at an all-time low, and there are projections to -- for further reduction during FY '25. As a result, we have maintained quarter-on-quarter revenue growth for the last 2 quarters and also achieved positive operating margins. I'm happy to state that on these calls, we had indicated that our first objective is to make sure H2 is positive on EBITDA terms. We have achieved that. Our second objective was to make sure that Q3 and Q4 are positive, we have achieved that. In fact, in Q4, while Q3 was just above -- was breakeven, slightly positive, Q4 we turned our operating profit of INR 5 crores. And the quarter-on-quarter revenue growth was 16% during Quarter 4. As macroeconomic indicators also show signs of a turnaround, we are confident of a smart recovery at Parador in FY '25. The second story, where we have shifted second segment, where we have strongly shifted gears, is on pipe and fittings business, where there is a strong momentum being built for volume growth. So volume at our scale is the #1 priority, and we are pushing hard for it. The result is that in quarter 4, we delivered 23% volume growth. If I were to just dice out 2 months, March and April, the volume growth is north of 40%. And this is a theme that you will hear from us consistently. The #1 focus is to drive volume growth in pipes and fitting. All of this is being driven by targeted distribution expansion efforts in the retail segment as well as our focused approach to technical sales in the institutional segment. We'll have -- we'll be happy to note established a team, which is working dedicatedly on B2B sales and institutional sales. And we are deploying the best teams and the best tools to drive our work on this area. I'm also happy to report that despite significant pricing pressure and that pricing pressure has only intensified as we exited the year in Quarter 4, the profitability of the polymer solutions business improved significantly by more than 300 basis points for the year compared to previous year. And these are all due to initiatives across supply chain and material costs. You all have been witnessed to significant volatility with -- in resin prices last year. The resin prices are at an all-time low. However, we believe that PVC and CPVC prices have now largely bottomed out and that means a stable pricing regime for this financial year, FY '25. On the growth side, we continue to believe that this segment will grow at 8% to 10%. There was demand both on private residential side, on the institutional side and also on the government segment side. In this market, we are confident of continuing to outpace the demand as we have done so for the last several quarters. The recent acquisition of Topline, as I said, has been a major milestone. The focus is currently on a successful integration, and that's where our teams are spending their nights and days, and on extracting synergies and procurement, operations and sales. We believe, and now being on ground and inside the organization, that the expanded portfolio of products, customers and the geographies that they serve will add further momentum to our pipes and fitting story. Construction Chemicals, the [ new SKUs ] on the block for us. Experienced a strong growth trajectory last year. In fact, we exited the year at -- the March exit was at an annualized revenue of about INR 85 crores. So we are inching close to that INR 100 crore mark and that to a short span of about 12 to 18 months. So there is a lot of tailwinds behind that segment for us. If we look back at the year, continue to scale new heights and delivered its highest ever sales volume for HIL. The Charminar brand that carries a 75-plus year legacy of trust, further strengthened market leadership, we increased our market share, we improved our price positioning and we deepened our distribution reach. We finished the year with volume growth of 2% and NSR growth of 3%. This is in the context of a market that has declined at an overall aggregate level. I'm also happy to report that there has been strong efforts during the year to improve the margin performance. And we finished Q4 with improved margin compared to where we have started the year. While there is overall a slow start to the season in roofing due to the general elections, we expect both volume and price growth in Q1, leading towards stronger margin performance. We will also be introducing some exciting new products in this segment to sustain a differentiated positioning and further grow our market share. In Building Solutions, we had a steady year with volume growth across most categories. However, this is coupled with strong pricing pressures. If I take it as an example, in blocks, our volumes during the year grew by 12%. However, the prices dropped by 8%. We are working on several value-enhancement initiatives across raw material, productivity and other cost elements to improve our profitability. These initiatives have been on for the last 3, 4 months. In fact, the first set of encouraging results are with us. We finished Q4 with an improved margin. In fact, on a year-on-year basis, Q4 improved its margin profile by 50 basis points, and we expect and we have line of sight for further improvement in FY '25. Overall, our people define HIL and we continue to invest in building an organization for tomorrow. Our business achievements are led by the sterling contribution of our teams on the shop floor, at the frontlines and in our R&D centers. I'm also happy to share with all of you that we have been recertified as a Great Place to Work for 6th consecutive years with improved trust index scores. As we march towards our goals, we will sustain our enabling work culture and ensure our teams are inspired to take HIL to the next level. In conclusion, I would say, there is strong work that is happening internally to gain momentum that good momentum is now visible on the volume front. We will work harder to only solidify that momentum on the volume side. There is strong work happening on improving profitability. Again, the first signs of improvement are visible. We would also hope for greater support from the market on the pricing front, and that will mean that all 3 forces would have aligned in the right direction. But we believe those pricing pressures are transient, and we remain firmly on the long-term stated ambition of reaching the billion-dollar mark. With that, let me request Ajay to provide a detailed overview of our financial performance during the quarter and FY '24. And both of us will be happy to take all your questions after Ajay's comments. Thank you for your time.

Thank you, Akshat. Good afternoon, and thank you all for joining today's call. I would like to take this opportunity to present an overview of our financial performance and operational highlights for quarter 4. In quarter 4, HIL India has achieved 4.3% year-on-year revenue growth to INR 535 crores, as compared to INR 512 crores with visible volume growth in all business segments. The reported EBITDA from the quarter is INR 27 crores as against INR 38 crores in quarter 4 last year. The lower EBITDA is on account of onetime cost of INR 7 crores incurred during the quarter for acquisition-related costs and the property tax payment at earlier years. Apart from that, we have strengthened our leadership position during the year. This has resulted in higher salary costs. The Roofing Solutions business grew by 4% year-on-year to INR 255 crores in Quarter 4. Despite sluggish demand, we continue to grow in volume and thereby further strengthening our market leadership position in the quarter and continue to enjoy customer loyalty. We have reported 200 basis point year-on-year improvement in profitability during the quarter in this segment. The Building Solutions business grew by 10% year-on-year to INR 146 crores in quarter 4. While the volume in blocks business grew by 18% year-on-year, the margin is under pressure due to intense competition in the market, which led to lower price realization. The operating margin during the quarter is in line with same quarter of last year, and it was improved by 150 basis points over first 9 months of the year. This improvement in margin is on account of development of alternate supply sources, which helped [ lowering ] the input cost and price increase realized in later part of the quarter. The Polymer Solution business remained stable with revenue of INR 133 crores for quarter 4. The margin reduced on account of lower realization by 3% to 4% due to aggressive price led by major players and inventory provisioning. However, in FY '24, we have made strong recovery in profitability on account of various cost reduction initiatives and strategic procurement even when the industry price of both CPVC and PVC category declined. In Flooring segment, we have achieved 13% growth in volume quarter-on-quarter, where as we've reported 16% growth in revenue quarter-on-quarter to INR 318 crores. The operating profit for the quarter is INR 5 crores. Our focus on working capital optimization continued during the quarter and inventories are at the lowest level in Flooring segment. Our debt at a consolidated level stood at INR 548 crores, and the cash and cash equivalents of INR 237 crores at the end of the year. The total debt-to-equity ratio stands at 0.44 as on 31st March 2024. We are confident in our ability to grow our performance footprint and create healthy cash flows going forward. With this, I would like to conclude my opening remarks. I request the moderator to open the floor for questions. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Aditya from Securities Investment Management Company.

Yes. Sir, so if we look at the last year, year-and-a-half, we have been affected by a lot of external factors in most of our businesses. So do you slowdown in euro affecting Parador or increase in fiber cost affecting roofing business. So if you could just talk about how the external factors now in each of our businesses? And how is the near-term looking to you?

Thank you, Aditya. I will -- let me take it in that order and then if I'm missing out, Ajay, please chip in. From an India perspective, 2 external factors, on the input side that we are -- we track closely and have a bearing -- significant bearing on us. One is on the roofing side, the fiber cost is a factor. There is relative stability. There are only very modest and predicted price increases that are there planned for FY '25. We do not expect any surprises or any volatility on that front so that's in a good scope better than what it was last year. On cement pricing, while we started the financial year, there was expectation that there will be an increase. So far, the prices are sort of held out and are largely in softer version. Post-election, the sense is that there will be some [ rising ] on that. And we are prepared for those situations. So no surprises and the cement price also plays out on our other cementation part of the portfolio, which is on the building solution side. The third factor is on PVC and CPVC, resin price. But as I said, we feel the prices now bottomed out. They are at all-time record years. We expect the pricing to be range bound around those levels that we currently are. And that should mean that there are no further surprises like the one that we had last year. The thing to watch out on the pipes and fitting segment is just a competitive scenario where the larger players in the last 3 to 6 months have shown a propensity to be very aggressive on the price side. And hence you would see amongst players -- the larger players who have declared results or going to be declaring results in the coming days that there is a decline in price even beyond what the resin prices would have indicated. So that's something to watch out for. Other than that, I think from a demand perspective, given the election season, slightly model start to this financial year. So the expectation in the market is that as this whole electioneering comes to an end, there will be a robust price stack across segments, including in government stabling. So that's the other factor to keep in mind. For us, however, and the biggest segment which get exposed to the demand in this quarter is roofing. We are now sitting in second week of May. We are already witnessing robust uptake on demand, and we are hopeful that this quarter, there will be volume growth compared to last year. On the Parador side, the European business, the macroeconomic environment, the external environment seems to have stabilized. The inflation rate is now under the kind of range that the central banks will be comfortable with. Interest rates have not been increased now for almost 6 months since December. There are talks that at some point, interest rates will also start coming down, but the other indicator is the consumer sentiment where we hear from our retail partners like footfalls are now sort of coming back to the stores. And again, the expectation was that in the core Central European market, there will be a bounce back post the summer holidays, so in the August time frame. However, we have to preface that in market likes Europe, the bounce back also is towards slower than a steadier one rather than [indiscernible] one so we need to be watchful. That said, the focus for us is to diversify our geographical market growth away from the core Central European market. And that's why some early wins have already started coming in. We are entering and we have entered some high -- large high-growth market and that will help us diversify. if I want to share an indication, the target that we have going for is that we need to have 50% of our revenues coming in outside our core markets. That's the center of gravity for us in the past. So there is a plan in place, which is being executed to reduce our dependence on the European markets. So I think that would be a quick summary, if I'm missing anything Ajay as far as external factor is concerned.

No. Just -- and then the price factor in case of Europe, the material cost, which went up to almost double in the last couple of years. It has come down to its lowest level now.

What we also continue to watch is the situation -- the geopolitical situation around Middle East, et cetera. While there are some escalations that has happened in recent weeks. So far, we are closely watching and is no material impact on any of our businesses around it.

Okay. Sir, my next question is on Parador. So our revenues have fallen by 16% in FY '24, but our employee and OpEx costs have increased by more than 10%. So we have talked about undertaking cost-saving initiatives in this business, but the same is not reflected in the numbers. So if you could just help us understand why would that be the case? And secondly, if I look at the commentary of the flooring companies in Europe, they expect the demand to be weak for some more time. So as an organization, how are we looking to manage balancing costs in this lower demand environment and investing in growth to expand into newer geographies and markets?

Right. So you're right on the material cost. You're right on the contribution margin. The contribution margin where we started the year was north of 60%. We finished the year at around 52%, 53%, and that's a significant move that has happened. The manpower cost or salary cost that you are talking about is largely on account of the investments that we are doing in growing our sales capabilities outside the core Central European market. In fact, on this call and on this forum, we've been sharing this over the last 3 or 4 times that those are investments that we are making. It's on account of the new geographies that we are trying to strengthen and it's also on account of building muscle on the commercial sales channel, which we were not playing in earlier. As with all sales investment, there is always a little bit of a lag between the sales uptick and the time on these people come in. So that's why you're probably experiencing it. The important thing to note is that in euro terms, the increase in manpower is about 2.5%. When you convert it into INR, it looks like a 10% increase. But what is actually driving it is essentially the 2.5% increase on the ground. So it's not a indiscriminate increase on the manpower cost. It's a very considered increase. The impact of that is now visible. It's maybe the currency factor, which moved from 83 to 89, which is giving us slightly exaggerated picture in INR terms. And your next question was on -- sorry, if you could repeat the last part of your question?

This commentary of -- if we look at the commentary of other flooring companies in Europe, they expect the demand to be for some more time. So are we also witnessing the same because if the investments that we are making, if you're not able to get into higher sales, this lower margin on Parador will continue for some more time.

See, I think the commentary is true for the year that has gone by, depending on which segment in these geographies, the flooring market dropped by about 20% to 30%. And that is a fact. Is that now showing signs of improvement? That is also a fact now, whether how fast will the downside be, the time will tell. But that said, our confidence comes from the fact that we are gaining share at the expense of other competitors. Even when we talk about DIY, retail counters that we are on, we are now on more counters and all of that is the work and effort over the last 6 months, which is what is driving the growth in revenue month-on-month since October. In fact, March, we finished as the best month in the whole financial year and the same trend continues and includes. So for us, it is about regaining share -- gaining share in these geographies. And the second part is also to diversify to newer geographies. So those are the 2 themes that we have been speaking on this forum, and that remains as the central theme internally as well.

Understood sir. But if I look at the year-on-year...

Sorry to interrupt, sir, I would request you to kindly rejoin the queue for follow-up questions as there are several others who are waiting for that. We'll take the next question -- before we take the next question, [Operator Instructions] We'll take the next question from the line of Nikhil Gada from Abakkus AMC.

Congratulations on achieving breakeven or profitability in Parador. So firstly, I have a few data questions. So if you can help me in terms of what was in a Polymer Solutions? So what was the breakup of plastic pipes in FY '24? What was putty and what was Construction Chemicals? And if you can also give the EBIT split as well.

Sure. Just give us a second, we are pulling those numbers out so Ajay?

So Nikhil, the split between parts, firstly in polymer segment is -- construction chemical and pipe is around INR 345 crores. Between construction chemical and PVC was -- put together, it is around INR 195 crores -- INR 192 crores, INR 193 crores.

And sir, what will be the EBIT split?

In terms of EBIT, the pipes and fitting's EBIT for the year is 0.2% [indiscernible].

You're saying FY '20 -- sir, I want only FY '24 numbers.

Yes, this is FY '24 numbers.

Okay. So you're saying 0.2% EBIT margins in pipes and remaining is for putty?

Yes.

Okay. And sir, just specifically for this fourth quarter in polymer, the INR 6 crore expense, which was there, is that included in this EBIT?

No. That is part of -- come on corporate cost unallocated.

So could you help me with what kind of inventory losses we saw in this fourth quarter for pipes?

Around 1%, around 1%.

Sir, then since we have done such decent sort of volumes and there was only a 1% impact, the margins are comparatively on the lower side. So is it largely because of the competitive pressures that we have seen that we have to reduce our prices?

Nikhil, if you [indiscernible] INR 130 crores in '18, '19 so if you see the operating margin, you have reported 5% operating margin in pricing.

Yes. I think the right one to look at is EBITDA, not EBIT. There will be differences all across the board so -- but to your question -- and your question was on the performance side, right? So I think let me first preface before we come to quarter 4. For the full year, there is a 300 basis point improvement in EBITDA compared to the previous year as far as this segment is concerned. And that is the real story. From a quarter 4 perspective, yes, there was a drop. That's also dedicated around nearly -- if I'm not wrong, around 17% -- 16%, 17% drop in prices like -- that was experience in the industry. And then there were -- also there are some trade-offs we are making in terms of pushing harder on the volume side. There are also some investments we have now stepped up on the marketing and distribution side. So these are all coming into play. But that said, it's something that you should compare with other competitors also in the industry because -- we were also going through some declared numbers, large players, whereas this year for us at an EBIT level, which you were talking, that we have gained by about [ 530 ] basis points. And the declared result of one of our large peers, the gain is only around 170 basis points. If I also talk about pricing, then for this year, the price decline for us was about 14%. For the same competitors, the price decline is much more pronounced. In my estimate, it's around the 18% so you should do that comparison. And I think overall as far as this year is concerned, there's been good solid performance, both on volumes and also on profitability, to some extent revenue was driven by the resin pricing. So that's a difficult metric to track.

Understood. Sir, secondly, just if you can give the overall...

Nikhil, 1 more thing, the volume we have grown in pipes and fitting 23% volume in Q4, whereas in last few months, the volume growth is at around north of 40%.

Correct. So March and April, as I indicated, if we just pick up those 2 months was 31% and 33%. And again, that's a theme that you will see recurring. We've spoken in the past this is a business where with volume comes scale, with scale comes better profitability and that's the path that we are on.

And this is strategical performance on the HIL business without adding any pipeline numbers in this.

Yes.

Sir, secondly, just one question before -- and post that I'll join the queue again. If you can just overall give a guidance for all the segments in terms of what is the growth visibility you are sort of foreseeing in FY '25? And what kind of margin outlook for each of the segments, please?

From a grouping perspective, and I'll share ranges, we should be looking at revenue growth in the zone of 8% to 10%. And we are confident of improving the margin profile by anywhere between 200 to 300 basis points from where we finished last year, which should bring us now within striking difference to what the better numbers were, FY '23 and before, okay? On Building Solutions, the revenue growth driven by some capacity expansions and -- should be north of 20%, 25%. And on the profitability side, we expect to cross the FY '23 profitability, which means that there is a good 350 to 400 basis point improvement that we are -- we have line of sight to. On pipes, the organic volume growth, and this is not adding the impact of the acquisition, should be in the zone of about 25% to 30%. On the PVC, again, a 20%, 25% revenue growth is what we're aiming at, but mostly on the CC side, the construction chemical side. Profitability across the whole polymer segment should be largely stable at around the levels that we have. However, there will be some calls taken to invest on business development activities around marketing, around new product introductions, et cetera. So those are strategic calls and investments that we would make in that segment. In Parador, we are expecting a revenue growth nearly in the 15% to 30% mark, and that will also have a good positive drop down to the EBITDA level.

Can we achieve a...

Sorry to interrupt, sir, I would request you to kindly rejoin in the queue for follow-up. We'll take the next question from the line of Sanchita Sood from RoboCapital.

I had a few questions...

Sir, the participant has left the queue. We'll move on to the next question, which is from the line of Bhavin Rupani from Investec.

My first question is related to piping. So many of the large competitors are participating in government's Jal Jeevan Mission project. Do we participate in that? And if yes, what is the order size that we have? And also, if you can elaborate on how should we understand the margins and the working profile in these projects?

So far, Birla HIL was not participating actively in that segment. One of the strategic rationale for our acquisition of Topline was to create the credentials and specifications to be playing in that segment. And that's a segment we feel quite bullish about. We will grow that, and I think we have to start seeing this as participating in B2G and -- the business that is originating from government channels. Today, a lot of that focus is on Jal Jeevan Mission. There are more such water-oriented missions or programs that have been floated. The Amrut program is another such, which is doing the same for urban connectivity. There are 2 other programs that will become relevant for us, which is on gas. So one of the schemes the government is talking about and has announced is to create pipeline connectivity for LPG or natural gas to also the large mass of population. So that's the second. The third one is around broadband also where the government was talking about creating broadband connectivity to every Gram Panchayat. All of these will require pipes, different specifications that we now have the capability to service it. We also have in much pockets the credentials to service it. So it's an area that is a good focus for us. There is a team that has been set up for driving this. To give a sense of how much we do and have done, so far, as far as the Birla HIL pipes portfolio is concerned, we have not done so it is largely negligible. On the acquired entity, nearly 50% of the business comes from these programs. So that is our starting point, and we are now bidding aggressively on many of those programs, and of course, continuing the old relationships.

Sir, is it possible for you to quantify what is the order size that we have right now from the new entity?

It's a really difficult one because the order size and there is time lines attached to it, but I think the 50% run rate is something that should be a good indication of where our starting point is.

All right. So sir, you indicated that 50% -- sorry, 30% to 35% organic volume growth in piping. So how should one understand the volume growth in the -- from the new entity?

I said 25% to 30% on the pipes side. We should expect anywhere around the 20% mark on volume growth as far as the acquired entity is concerned.

Okay. And any sense on the working capital needs and the margins in this project?

So it should not be too different from how we played because the nature of such business is that our supply and our payments come through contractors and not trading from a government department. I understand there are concerns from an external perspective and because these are government channels, payments might get compromised or delayed. That is not the case because you are dealing with these contractors. These contractors are large institutions. They are not -- and many of them listed entities and so on. The payment is either done on cash basis or on LC basis. So the exposure is not any different from how our other institutional business work. So this should not be a cause of concern going forward, as we are scaling up this space.

Got it. Sir, last question is related to competitive intensity. So in your opening comments, you mentioned that there's an increase in competitive intensity from the large players that they are...

Bhavin, we are not able to hear you.

Sir, he is not audible.

Yes, yes. We are also not able to hear Bhavin.

Bhavin, sir, I would request you to kindly rejoin the queue for follow-up questions, as you are not audible right now. We'll move on to the next question, which is from the line of Chirag from White Pine Investments.

I have 2 questions, both on PARADOR. Question 1 is what are the aspirational margins -- the aspirational margins or the mid-term margins that you're looking in PARADOR? and if you can indicate what are the drivers for that? What kind of volumes you will need, what kind of raw material pricing or the net pricing support you will need to achieve that, if you can indicate a broader timeline. And I understand it may [indiscernible] by one or two [indiscernible] based on demand dynamics. And second question on PARADOR is more -- near-term over the next 12 months, you indicated that you are looking for a 10%, 15% kind of volume growth in '25, right, if I understood it correctly. Which segment and region is driving that?

So, line was slightly -- not sure -- so I'm just going to repeat the question if we heard. So your first part is on PARADOR, what is the kind of margin outlook that one would expect over the next to 2 to 3-years. I'll let Ajay speak about the specific numbers. However, here is how the stack up happens. Our first goal was to make sure that, during the last 2 quarters we are EBITDA positive. Having achieved this goal for the current financial year, we want to do cash positive for the full year. And next year, we should be PBT-positive, is how the whole stack up is happening, which basically would translate to a positive EBITDA margin of 3% to 4% for the coming year and it's scaling up to near double-digit levels in the subsequent 2-year period. So the steady state we are looking at by FY '27 should be in the 12% range. FY '26 will be in the 6% to 7% range.

Your question on the volume growth, as Akshat mentioned, we are expecting 15% to 20% revenue growth and volume growth will be probably it is in the range of 17% to 22%.

Yes.

So I guess you said volume growth of -- F'24 volume growth of...

17% to 22%. Again it is depending on the mix of the product in the market.

Yes, Akshat, my question was which sub-segment of PARADOR business and which region is giving you a fairly strong number you are targeting? Or which region and which sub-segment is where you are banking on to get this kind of number?

So from a region point of view, the biggest contributors, if I look at the picture over the next couple of years will be the following. There is a recovery that will happen in the DACH region which is Germany, Austria, Switzerland will be one contributor. The range -- the whole Nordic block, which will be the second big contributor. And Nordic, I will also try and answer the product story. In DACH region, it is all our products which grow roughly in a 25% or which sell 25% to 30% each. In Nordic it is largely Engineered Wood. The other big cluster, which will deliver growth in Europe is the Iberian cluster of Spain, Portugal, which is largely on the laminate and vinyl flooring. In terms of markets, which are largely new and we are banking in terms of investment, there are 3 mid-markets to watch out for or maybe 4. One is U.K. Again, our composite portfolio such as U.S., which will again be more on the ModularOne and on the individual side. And then there is China, which has done reasonably well for us in the years at close. We are aiming to grow that, there is a strong retail presence largely on the premium side and that is more on the Engineered Wood side. We believe this is completely missing for us, we have done the reach in small amounts and that's the other geographies. So that's the overall way outlined where the growth will come from. Product-wise, in the past, we have sort of been 25% across our sales categories give or take where product mix will be largely maintained.

Okay. And just one clarification on the margin guidance that you indicated at '26, 6%, 7%. And '27, 12% expectational margin. How much of pricing or let's say our gross margin will play a role in this? Or is it more driven by operating leverage, you are comfortable with current gross margins that you have?

The gross margin that is at current level is where we will stay. It is the operating leverage, which will start delivering the bottom line impact. Gross margin, there is maybe 100, 200 basis points where that is still remaining, which is on product reengineering, et cetera. And as we enter some of these markets, there might be local sourcing, but largely -- in fact, I would say, mostly all of it will come from operating leverage.

This is helpful. So why I was asking is, if the RMC turns favorable, if the cost pressure over the last few years start going down, you are looking to pass it on to gain volumes. That is the right way to look at the business of PARADOR, correct?

Chirag, you'll have to say that again, not clear -- the question.

I'm saying if raw material cost pressures, which were there over the last 1, 2 years, as they start going down, you are looking to pass it on to the customer to win volume. That is the business approach that you are looking at for next 2 to 3 years. Is this the right thing to understand?

I would not summarize it that way. Can you hear us, Chirag?

Yes.

I think the way to think about it is that the cost levels in our estimate are already now down to probably the levels that they will stabilize at. We do not expect further decline. And hence the P&L structure that we spend on today is what we would like to maintain at a gross margin level. Minor pricing here or there changes with the product mix. But there are also positive factors that will come into play. For instance, I've been sharing that we are now playing aggressively on commercial. In fact, the other cut to your question, Chirag, on where the growth comes from, nearly 2/3 growth is expected to come from commercial customers. Commercial customers and accounts also turn out to be more profitable than the DIY and retail one. So they will have some positive impact there as well. So I don't think we are seeking to change the gross margin and contribution structure. We are not trying to play the price gain that maintain the current P&L structure. What I did indicate in my opening remarks is that somewhere the agility leading needed on pricing. And there is a fundamental change that we are doing, maybe 24 months ago, and that's how the market in Central Europe used to do it. You had 1 rate list, you apply that rate list to every client or every customer. And there was a certain lack of flexibility. Now for us in a range bound manner to be played with the customer to ensure that the -- when the account is the concentration, which means that in certain accounts, there will be slightly lower margin. And certain account, there will be slightly higher margin. Also, if you start looking at margins in a consolidated manner and not just on a product or SKU level, it is other flexibility that we have broken.

[Operator Instructions] We'll move on to the next question, which is from the line of Sanchita Sood from RoboCapital.

I'll just continue asking my question. So this is regarding your Building solutions business. So our aim is to double our revenues in this segment by FY '26 or '27. So are we looking at any further capacity enhancement or acquisition for the segment? How exactly are we planning on doubling our revenues here? And also, how are we planning on reaching like a 10%, 12% margin number from the current 5%, 6% levels?

Yes. So yes, over the next couple of years, Private -- and with the timeline there will be some capacity additions that will happen. However, we are being careful that, that capacity addition has to do on the non-commodity side of the portfolio. So on those -- design of those and things, which are more aesthetically oriented and higher ease in profitability coming in from that segment is where we would look to invest. These are not large investments but we will do that. The second thing is to your question on profitability on the -- into 12% or thereabout. Most of the work that is happening is on the internal cost structure. So one on material costs and reviewing the recipes, et cetera, is a constant thing. It's always in response to our pricing levers in the market. That is one big area, the second how we can also start introducing value-added products to the portfolio, which have a better margin profile to that. Again, there has been some wins on that front. But if I were to say there is material cost, there is the conversion cost where we are focused and as I mentioned, that is a big area [indiscernible] component. The third one on the cost side is the logistics work on what is happening. And then, of course, there is -- I mentioned the value-added products coming into the portfolio.

Sanchita, the 12% margin is operating margin, which is right now in this year it is 9.5%. So 5% is PBT margin. So this is the difference.

Okay. All right, sir. And regarding my second question is regarding our retail segment. So sir, what is your outlook now regarding the chrysotile fiber prices? Is this the new normal for us?

I think the level that we see here is the normal. We do not expect a decline. The best case scenario is that the prices remain near stable at current levels.

The next question is from the line of [ Shubham Sehgal ] from [indiscernible].

Yes. So my question was regarding your polymer business. So I can see there was a loss in the segment in Q4. So what went wrong there?

As I said, the Q4 picture was essentially on account of the price drop that happened, the pricing reduced by nearly 20% and that something that you would see across all players. That is primarily the reason why this happened. But I think also, as you can imagine, across quarters there are adjustments that happen internally, plus there are product mix variations that happen month on month. That's why it's important to look at the aggregate annual picture, where we see we have done quite well in improving the profitability. And as I said, that improvement is nearly 300 basis points compared to the previous year. But specifically for Quarter 4 was largely on account of the price drop.

Okay. And any more one-off costs for CapEx you are expected to incur because of the acquisition of Topline in the near term?

Nothing material, no.

Okay. So regarding this acquisition only, so are there any low-hanging fruits in Topline which need to be addressed? And should we expect FY '25 to be consolidation year? Or do you think both HIL and Topline can start firing from FY '25 itself? And what kind of margins are you targeting in piping business?

So, opportunities identified, yes. In fact, there are opportunities on the other side as well. There will be learnings for HIL also having been exposed to the pipeline system. So in both ways, these have been properly identified, tabulated. People have been assigned to those. There is range from sourcing-related benefits to recipe-related benefits, to operational leverage. And of course, the bigger scheme of the consolidation is help on the manpower side and on the management, overall. So all of that is into play. So your question, will this year largely be consolidation? My expectation is that the first 4 to 6 months will largely be consolidation after which and hopefully sooner than that work should start firing at full throttle. But not the full year for sure, but maybe about 4 to 6 months for consolidation, and we are now already one month now down into that journey. On the margins for the -- yes. So as I said, for this year, we should be at similar margin levels as last year. And there will be some additional investments we'll be doing on business development, around advertisement, promotions, et cetera. So near current levels maybe margin will -- also accounting for these costs.

Okay. And could you just help me with the revenue split between your Pipe sales and Putty sales?

Roughly [ 65%, 35% ].

And what would be the volume for the pipe sales for FY '23 and FY '24?

So, FY '23, in case of pipe sales are 19,500 metric ton, FY '24 it is roughly 22,000 metric ton.

Okay. Got it. And is your putty business making losses? Or is it breakeven?

It is profitable. In fact, the profitability there also this year has improved despite a drop in the pricing and the price drop was nearly, if I'm not wrong, close to 10-odd percent. But overall, the segment is profitable, 12%.

Okay, sir. Got it. And just last one thing. Just can you help me with the capacity utilization for all your different business segments?

So across Roofing and Building Solutions, we are north of 90% in pipes. Not counting the Topline acquisition, we are in the 65% to 70% range.

Okay. Got it. And any CapEx requirement in FY '25 and '26?

We had -- I think we've shared with all of you, we are expanding our blocks capacity in Chennai and we are doubling that. So that project is already underway. It should get commissioned by H2 this year. There are a couple of capacities that we are planning on the putty and CC side, construction chemical side. We are able to -- be able to better serve the various regional markets, those are smaller investments, they are not big ticket as such.

And then there are certain capacity utilizations exist in pipes and fittings plants.

The next question is from the line of Deepak Poddar from Sapphire Capital.

Sir, just a clarification first, when you mentioned about this first quarter, we expect both volume and price growth and margin improvement. So here, what's the reference point we are talking about? I mean, are we comparing it on a Y-o-Y basis?

Yes, yes. We are comparing it on the Y-o-Y basis.

So last year, I think our margins were close to 8.6% at the EBITDA level. So we do expect...

We are talking for which segment?

Talking on a consolidated basis.

Okay? Please go ahead. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

No. So last year consolidated basis, I think we were at 8.6%. So we expected this first quarter, at least we see some improvement on both on the revenue side as well as on the margin front.

That's correct.

Okay. Okay. Fair enough. And my second question is on your interest cost. This quarter, your interest cost, I mean, it's very negligible. I mean, what's the going forward rate one should look at?

So it will be in the range of around INR 5 crore to INR 6 crore per quarter?

INR 5 crore to INR 6 crore per quarter, right?

In India.

Okay, understood. And then just a clarification, one more -- you mentioned, FY '25, we expect a similar EBITDA margin level as last year. So that's FY '24 margin level that we are expecting or FY '23?

Last year -- when I said last year, it was about '24, and I was making the commentary specifically for the polymer business.

Specifically about the...

In the other 2 segments, as I said, there will be marginal improvement in the performance from a profitability point of view.

Yes. Because the reason I was asking is because you mentioned the segment-wise margin improvement, in terms of Roofing will be closer to your FY '23 margins and even the Building division would be closer. Polymer is already higher than your FY '23 margins. Is just the PARADOR, there is some differential, but you do expect an improvement in margin. So can one expect that FY '23 EBITDA margin on the consolidate level, one can see that in FY '25? Which was around 6.5%, I guess, in FY '23, your EBITDA margin at the company level.

And you're asking at a consolidated HIL India plus PARADOR, right?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Yes. I think that's a fair assumption. We may achieve that much here.

Okay. And we are on track for this 12% FY '26 margin? Or there is some delay here and there that can happen -- that we have earlier guided to date.

I would say nearer the 10% to 12%, yes. So the range we can talk about is in that. So 10% to 12%, yes.

We are 10% to 12% FY '26.

Correct.

That's it from my side, Sir, all the very best to you.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Keshav Garg from Counter Cyclical.

Last year, you told us that we will do $1 billion revenue in the next 3 years. Last year, there was a marginal decline in revenues. Now this year, you are saying that in the next 3 to 4 years, we will be $1 billion revenue. Now sir if you see that if we take segment by segment, then except for the Roofing segment, which is our traditional segment in the Building Solution as well as in the Polymer Solutions, we are grossly and comprehensively underperforming the -- our peers, the competition. Now for example, in the Polymer segment, our revenues are flat since past 3 years and our margin for FY '24 are the lowest in the whole industry at least amongst all the listed players. If you see the Building Solutions segment, then there is a player, Big Block construction, which is doing less than half the revenue that we are doing in AAC block, but their PBT margin is 20%, whereas our margin PBIT margin is 5%. And their market cap is almost equal to the market cap of HIL. So -- and after grossly underperforming in the domestic market, we have gone into a saturated or declining market like Germany, and then there we are trying to do the impossible. So it seems we are in a totally value destruction journey, the profit after tax is falling by 19%, over the 5 year -- past 5 years, our return on capital employed is less than the cost of capital. So I'm sure HIL is a great place to work for employees, but when will it become a great place for shareholders?

Thank you, Keshav. I think it's -- your comments are a great shot in the arm for us. Thank you. Yes. I think your assessment on where the opportunities lie are spot on. I think it's not too different from what we've also called out. But you can imagine is that the situation will look more -- I mean there is no fun in having a debate around whether your assessment on a certain segment is 80% or 100% correct, but I would also say that it's not entirely inaccurate. There are 2 choices. The choices are either we completely -- are we in a zone of disappointment or we are on a zone of recovery and there was a plan to do that. I think that's -- we opted for the second one. And that's the journey we are on. You would also appreciate none of these are overnight switches that can be done and we can turn them on and we are suddenly on a different trajectory. A big part is that at the end I have been sharing is essentially to also give you the comfort that what are the areas I mentioned in which the plans have been put in place, the impact in broad term, execution is happening. Recovery, as you would appreciate, is always a steadier and somewhat slower one, are largely a hockey stick recovery in any business. So yes, the assessment and the identification of those opportunities, and by and large, even the right ballpark, that is the journey we are on.

So I just want, sir, if you could tell us that for PARADOR especially, there has to be, whatever efforts you're putting, we appreciate. Sir, but there has to be some deadline that if we are unable to turn around this company by this time, then we will rethink our plans. Because there is more point just like Tata acquired Corus and they kept on putting money, kept on putting money, and ultimately they are drastically winding down the capacity. So it's better to just control the losses rather than just compounding the mistake by keep on putting more and more funds and more management bandwidth somewhere the prospects are not great.

Have you -- if I may to ask, Keshav, have you been following the PARADOR story for the last 4, 5 years? It's a recent FY quarter story...

Sir, it seems that -- the year FY '25 -- we have made, it will be a cumulative loss. So there is a time value of money also, there is an opportunity cost also. Just a feedback from your shareholders that please rethink your priority because the growth is in India, and we are trying to struggle in a saturated market. So if you see the Eurozone economy is stagnant since 2007 at $12 trillion. So I mean, what's the point of struggling over there is beyond comprehension?

So I think part of that, Keshav, I think it's important to understand why there is optimism and there's a slightly different point of view, but we have internally about PARADOR than maybe your perspective on it. The most important thing is that the product, the brand and the equity that we have at that company is worth a lot more than what it is showing us at the moment. I'm not even talking valuation, I'm talking in terms of revenue and P&L performance. We want to give it our 100% to make sure that its true potential is reached. We now have line of sight on getting there. There are early signs of recovery. And one of the things that I would respond to, you said, Eurozone is a stagnant market and stagnant economy, the question I will ask you is, are there more successful companies in the Eurozone, and driving inspiration from those, we feel that you can be one of those. Which also means that part of the revenue portfolio will need to be diversified from any particular geography to a few more geographies, which will be track that we are on. Although we candidly admit, the last 12 to 24 months have been difficult. I will also highlight that the previous 24 months was great. And the current set of shareholders were also extremely happy about those 24 months. Given there has been a recessionary period in that geography, should not mean that the core that we hold on to suddenly becomes not valuable. Yes, there is a recovery, and we are putting solid efforts to ensure that it's an accelerated recovery from where we can. And to your question, there should be a timeline, yes, there is always a timeline. Has that time come in our assessment? No. Because there is [ dose ] left and we want to make a undiluted focused effort in realizing that.

Sure sir, I hope our efforts bear fruit and...

Sorry to Mr. Keshav, I would request you to kindly rejoin if you have follow-up. We'll take the next question from the line of Miraj Shah from Arihant Capital.

My questions have been answered. Just 1 clarification was left regarding the consolidated EBITDA margin that you are talking about for FY '26, you mentioned 10% to 12%, but what did you mention for FY '25?

We have a consolidated level at about 7.5%, 8%.

The next question is from the line of Nitin Gandhi from Inoquest.

Can you share with us what's the maximum potential revenue from each of these segment at current prevailing prices?

Maximum potential revenue? I'm just trying to build a reasonable timeframe, so that the answer makes sense. If I look at the FY '27, '28 timeframe, the Roofing segment, maximum potential could be about 1.3x as far it currently is. Building Solution could be -- I'm sorry, Ajay was helping me with some notes. Overall, Building Solutions could be in the range of about 750 to 1,000 depending on the capacity addition that we are doing. Pipes & Fitting, our own plans and already, I think with Topline's acquisition, et cetera, we have line in sight to 1200 pushing towards the 1,500 mark. The Putty/CC segment will be closer to the INR 500 crore mark. Flooring, PARADOR in this timeframe should do nearer the EUR 230 million, EUR 225 million mark.

Sorry, how many million euros you say?

EUR 225 million to EUR 230 million.

Yes. Okay. And for this Roofing solution -- for Building, you are likely to double the capacity, but for Roofing any expansion is planned?

Roofing, no expansion is planned.

The next question is from the line of Sanjay Kumar from Ithought Financial Consulting.

Akshat, my questions are on the Building segment. What was the realization there as a generator for the full year?

I'm sorry, the line is...

Sir, your audio is not clear, maybe request to kindly use your handset to ask question.

Yes. What was the realization per cubic meter for the full year in the Building segment?

For per cubic meter, you mean to say AAC blocks, which is around INR 2800, our rate.

Sir, isn't it much lower compared to the peers? I think the peers -- even the listed peer is at INR 3,800 per cubic meter. Why is that different?

There is good freight and that number will be in the range of INR 3,500. Again, the prices are different in different geographies. So we are only -- plant in Chennai, in Hyderabad, Gujarat, Haryana, as well as an Odisha. So each plant is a different utilization.

Okay. And what is the raw material cost for this segment as a percentage of sales?

Yes. It's -- with this realization number, it will be in the range of 40%.

40%. Okay. Okay. So this is gross margin is in line with other peers, but it is not reflecting in EBITDA margin. Is it down to the efficiencies we have in our freight and transportation or the operating leverage sitting in employee cost because the gross margins are same. So we are lagging behind in the other line items. Can you comment on this?

I think -- so the one -- I don't -- I can guess which peer you have in mind but it's not an exact peer because we are a multiproduct -- we do panels, we do boards as well as blocks. There is that difference to keep in mind. Also we are a multi-geography player. So there are some differences that come with that. The third, the same peer also has had in '24 a fairly sharp decline on the profitability. So there are those factors also that come into play.

Okay. Got it.. And sir, second question was on the other products, fiber boards and sandwich panels. The listed peer is going to introduce ALC panels, Autoclaved Lightweight Concrete panels, which is going to target our sandwich panels and fiber boards. So its a threat or are we working on ALC panels?

Yes. So from our side also, there is effort that it's not a direct competition -- the application are similar but not same, a lot of it is also -- for our type of product, there is an effort that goes in building the demand for with the right influencers for that type of product. So these are not exact substitutes to each other.

Okay. Finally, what's the capacity addition in AAC blocks that we are planning?

300,000 cubic meter in new Chennai plant.

The next question is from the line of Viraj from SiMPL.

Akshat, 3 Questions. One is on PARADOR, if you see the trend in the last few quarters, in other sales, there's been on a decline in revenue. A lot is also to do with the market. And if you see the commentary for one of the largest players in Europe, view of the market is still quite bearish. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on what gives you the confidence to kind of volume growth we talked about for FY '25. What is that you are seeing in terms of -- which gives you the confidence that we will be able to achieve that? And is that a turnaround happening from Q1 itself? Or do you think it's more back-ended? That is one. Second, again on PARADOR is we did some financial restructuring back in Q3 and the interest costs was expected to come now. Now what we understand is we have provided an intercompany loan and as well as we have provided a corporate guarantee as well. So any thoughts you can give on why we did that? And last is on the Building Solutions. If you look at our presence by and large on a Pan India basis, we are more on north, east and south. But if you look at all the markets, like say, west, right, the demand-supply equation is -- demand is far excess of supply right now. So any particular reason why we've not been there or any plans of expansion in that territory as well? These are the 3 questions.

So PARADOR, what gives us confidence on the recovery side. I think much of what we are talking about is assuming a flat to stable market environment. So whatever bounce back happens in the market will be an upside potentially on the numbers that I'm talking about. Where does that confidence come from? I think the real hard evidence is how the order books have been tracking over the last 3 to 4 months and that order book has consistently exceeded the turnover that we have registered like the one lead indicators that give us a good sense of confidence. The second, steps that we have taken internally, number one, within Europe, we reorganized our sales teams, reorganized structure in which they are incentivized, which basically means that some of the success we've hired in our core Central European markets like Germany is now being replicated across Western Europe and Nordics. So we are opening up channels and DIY retail, which was our traditional mainstream, Central Europe in new geographies as well. Now these channels have a way of adding scale and volume in a significant manner. That's number one. Number two, I've been talking about the playing on the commercial side, where over the last 4 to 5 months, a lot of work is now concluded on building the right product portfolio, the right collateral and the right team to make a solid push towards that. That work having been done, now there are pipeline of orders that we are achieving and that should open up on your own segment. Third is the work that we are doing with our customers. Not just from a branding marketing but also like from a product innovation point of view. We had not done a new -- major new product launch for nearly 4 to 5 years. The event that I talked about in March, think of it like a Fashion Week in the garment space. That's the kind of category we are in where you need to refresh what you have as an offering to the market periodically. We had nearly 500 people come in from mostly from Europe, but also a large contingent places like China, there nearly 40 people showed up. And that has resulted into orders, a lot of customer interest could most importantly, sort of reassert our seriousness of being in that business, in that geography. And the new geographies that we are getting into. Places like U.S. and China, last year in terms of the revenue performance, all those 2 small but have been the best ever for us. So those are also showing revenue signs. So a lot of the confidence that we speak about is coming up bottom-up from what we are hearing from the markets that we are playing in and the teams that operate in that market. It is not a mathematical projection on itself. These are all bottom-up estimates. And I'm again reiterating that we estimate our basis, continued sluggishness in the macroeconomic environment, if that bounces and there are indications like that, there may be an upside also on this. And -- so that was I think your question on PARADOR in terms of...

One question was on the financing cost advantage. So the annualized advantage will be in the range of INR 5 crore, INR 5.5 crores. Our profit is already realized in last year, the balance will come in this year.

No, I was asking more in terms of provided guarantee...

So that is what I said, it's a INR 5.5 crores annualized savings on account of interest costs reaction, half of it is already realized in last year, balance half will come in this year.

Your question on Building solutions. Yes, West has been an interesting market. We do have capacity. It's not that we don't have. We have a plant in Berlin which produces blocks. So there is some capacity. Do we want to seriously consider putting up more capacity? Yes. Are we evaluating it? Yes. So as soon as we are in a position to announce something concrete will be -- we will share it with you. But we are globally tracking the market, and we agree with your views that its an attractive one for Building Solutions.

Just one follow-up on PARADOR. In the past, we talked about having a pipeline of more than 70 million, 75 million on conversions, right? How would that pipeline be now? And how is the conversion happening? Any color you can give on that?

So we would had -- the exact numbers, my sense is after churning out the wins and whatever lost opportunity, we will still be in the zone of about [ 80 million to 85 million ]. That I think is a healthy pipeline to maintain. What has been win ratio? The win ratios are typically -- the win-loss -- if I'm not -- It's about 35% as the win ratio that happens, but you would appreciate that items in these pipelines also, however, 2 to 4 month period in which it gets resolved and the decision form. So there is the other factor to keep in mind.

Ladies and gentlemen, we will take that as a last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments. Over to you, sir.

Thank you. As always, it's been a pleasure interacting with all of you over this call. We thank you for taking the time out. Thank you for staying engaged with the HIL story. I will, again reiterate -- I think there were some comments that Keshav made, We take those comments in the absolute positive manner because that's the opportunity that lies in front of us. For companies with the legacy that we hold, there will be periods where the opportunity set looks lighter than what it should. So that's the time when our execution capability and our legacy comes into place. And we are deeply conscious of making that turnaround in a quick and accelerated manner. So thank you so much. If you have more questions, we would like to know more about any of our businesses and how we are doing. We are happy to spend time one-on-one with any of you. Do reach out to our Investor Relations, ask and we will get back asap on those queries. Thank you very much.

Thank you, members of the management. On behalf of HIL Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.