BKW AG (BKW) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

[Interpreted] A hearty welcome to the financial analyst/media conference for the business year 2020. My name René Lenzin. I'm the Head of Communications at BKW, and I wish you a hearty welcome to this live stream. Some of you might remember, a year ago, this very conference had to be changed to a live stream. And at the time, hardly anybody would have thought that 1 year later, we would still have to inform you in a live stream. All the more, we are very happy to present an outstanding result to you. Let me briefly introduce you to the program. First, our CEO, Suzanne Thoma, is going to give you a brief introduction. And then our CFO, Ronald Trächsel, will present the figures of the business year 2020. And then Suzanne Thoma, our CEO, will give us an outlook on the strategy of BKW, and then we'll take your questions. You can submit your questions in writing during the conference, if you wish, and you can also let us know who the question goes to. So with that, I'd like to hand over to Suzanne Thoma.

[Interpreted] Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for your virtual presence. We're very happy about your interest. We are happy to present outstanding results. With regard to all the key indicators, we can report a clear plus: revenue, plus 9%; EBIT, plus 10%; operating net profit, plus 22%. And what is very gratifying, our operating cash flow has a plus of 24%. So we are in top form. We're consistently applying our strategy, and we are growing in interesting markets. What are the main drivers of this outstanding results? What were they in 2020? It is the continuous transformation of the energy business. The energy markets are changing. And what we need are trading activities, more flexibility and innovative approaches when it comes to energy supply. What we saw clearly in 2020 was that our services business is a very robust and resilient business. We have some markets that gave us a strong basis for growth even in the difficult year of the pandemic. And what we can see at BKW is that after many years of transformation, now our company is more than ever focused on customer needs and is offering more and more efficient solutions and that we can innovatively develop. And I'd like to hand over, with that, to my colleague, Ronald Trächsel.

[Interpreted] Well, thank you very much. I'm very pleased to introduce our great results for 2020. Now if we look at it in an overview, we see that in operating revenue we're beyond CHF 3 billion, which is CHF 3.129 billion. All of this despite corona, the virus and despite the decommissioning of KKM, which meant quite a reduction. Now 10% plus in the EBIT, which is at CHF 475 million as compared to CHF 433 million of the previous year. You can see a black line there, which is a one-off payment which we have received from Swissgrid for our transmission grid, which is a figure we've obtained by litigation. Now if we deduct this, we're at CHF 436 million, which is still better than the previous year, which I remind you was a record result in itself. So CHF 436 million is another record result ever since we have been listed. Now the operating net profit is a new key figure which has already been introduced in the first half year. I'm going to talk about this a bit more later on, but this basically shows the net profit before decommissioning funds. We have reported net profit which is at CHF 382 million, 5% less than last year. And the operating cash flow, as mentioned by Suzanne before, is at CHF 622 million. Now the EBIT is on a constant level. 2016 to 2018, we were able to remain stable. You can see the red line there, which is with regards to the power prices. There has been a slight increase ever since 2019, which means that we are now back on a path of growth with regards to EBIT. Now very briefly with regards to our new key performance indicator, the operating net profit. Let me briefly explain this. We have the comparison here between 2019 and 2020. We are expecting CHF 349 million for 2020, which includes -- or which is added to the performance state funds. We are not going to tell you more or give you more details about how this is invested, but this will be added to it. And so we invested several billions, and we have a return of approximately of 33% -- 3% rather, which is still going beyond what has been stipulated by the state. And that's in a half year that was highly influenced by the coronavirus. And then finally, that means that there is a reported net profit of CHF 382 million. Why do we think that this is a good key performance indicator? Because there are fluctuations that don't really have anything to do with the total performance of BKW. Now we have this CHF 382 million, and then we had this great performance in the funds of several billions, which is a performance of approximately 12.3%. And then because of the performance of the -- state funds, we arrive at this reported net profit. So this is where we see what we operatively manage to make per year. Now if we look at the Grid and the Services and the Energy. We see that when it comes to the Energy, we have a reduction of 11%, which has to do obviously with KKM, which could not be compensated by the increased energy prices. That was 1/4 of our production, so that would mean minus 25%. However, it's only 11%, which is due to the price effect. Grid is comparable to last year. If we deduct the Swissgrid payment, we're quite exactly at the previous year's level. This is also due to acquisitions we've made in the past half year. Acquisitions had to be cut because of the corona situation, which demanded a very sensible behavior. When it comes to EBIT, there is a slight down when it comes to Energy. The grid is stable. This is where Swissgrid has to be deducted again. And in Services, a plus of 17%, which is a great step forward. However, it is slightly disproportionate because of the coronavirus situation, because there was less efficiency on building sites, especially in the first half year. Now we had less investments than usual in 2020. You can see CHF 250 million were invested. What remained the same were the investments in maintenance and replacement with CHF 187 million. The large part of this goes into the grid, so maintenance of our grid have to be invested there. And we still have a CHF 63 million in growth, partly in Services and partly in Energy. Energy is with wind energy mainly and hydro energy. They're hydro energy in Switzerland and wind in Norway, especially. Now the cash generation, 2 figures I would like to highlight. One is the funds from operations. So that's -- there are the changes in the net working capital worth CHF 782 million. So we -- so this is where we generated cash flow of CHF 782 million, which means that we have quite some operating freedom here. And we're at CHF 662 million with regard to the operating cash flow, which is a record level. Now this is an overview over how we measure the cash flow. There is the operating cash flow, which is the cash flow before we deduct the payments for the decommissioning and disposal funds from KKM. Now I've listed this for you to see here. That was in 2020, where we expect an operating cash flow of CHF 663 million, which is where we deduct what we pay for the decommissioning. What we pay, that's CHF 133 million. You will not see that in P&L. And then at the end, you would get to an operating cash flow after those payments for the decommissioning. And then further down, there is the investment cash flow. So that's our investments. And this is where you can see how much we are getting back from the state funds, refunds from state funds, which is CHF 87 million. So that's what we receive from the state for the decommissioning and the disposal. The numbers, the figures are not quite the same right now. There is still a difference. So we make payments in the first step and then the fund pays us. There is one part that will not be covered by the state, however, but this is a brief explanation on how we deal with this. Now on net working capital, we're very successful here. As you can see, we started in 2013 with CHF 443 million, which were bound in our net working capital, and we've driven this down by 2020 to CHF 73 million. We have a turnover of approximately CHF 3 billion, where a normal figure would be 5%. That would be CHF 150 million. Anything beyond CHF 100 million is a top result for BKW. Now our liquidity, we started with CHF 911 million at the end of 2019, and we strongly finished the year with more than 1 million -- CHF 1 billion in liquidity, CHF 1.036 billion. We've got a cash flow of CHF 530 million and then investments, minus CHF 284 million; the dividends of our participation with CHF 79 million; the dividends we've paid based on 2020 -- or the price -- the share price in 2020 with CHF 125 million. And then approximately CHF 65 million of this go to the state to burn in dividends. And then the financing of our economy is about CHF 34 million. Now we do have a solid financial situation with BKW. On the left-hand side, you can see our net debt improvement. It has gone up to CHF 1.036 billion. And then on the right-hand side, you can see -- I'm sorry, you can see in the middle the financial debt, which is quite consistent. And then finally, we'll get to the net financial debt, which is a key indicator to show how stable we are with BKW. So this is a beautiful development over the past year. On the right-hand side, you can see the balanced maturity profile. Each line here is -- represents one of the bonds out there. We're set up long term here, up until the year 2034. It's a very balanced maturity profile. We don't have one particular year where we'll be -- we're reliable to pay huge, bulk sums, but it's very balanced over the years. Now the balance sheet is very stable as it always was in the past few years. Our equity ratio was increased to 42.3%. And on the right-hand side, you can see the market capitalization, which has gone beyond CHF 5 billion this year. Again, that's a first. Now the different business areas. Energy, we do have lower revenues. However, the EBIT is quite resilient. The 11% are attributable to the KKM, which is no longer part of our portfolio, and there has been some setback. Because of the coronavirus, there was less use in the industry. However, it could be compensated to a large part in the second half year. The increased electricity prices did help. They were vested. However, it wasn't able to completely absorb the loss from the KKM. In 2020, our performance was quite well with regards to the grid, which -- sorry, still with regards to the Energy, which means that the EBIT was only minus 4%. As you can tell, in 2019, we produced 12.3 terawatt hours, and in 2020, it was only 9 terawatt hours on average. And this is due to KKM, which is the red part that you can see here, the nuclear energy that was lost. So there was a little less thermal energy as part of this mix. This is due to the prices. So these power plants were working at a lower frequency in 2020 with regards to 2019. The new renewables, which is very pleasing to see, have increased. So that was a very good year in 2020, better than 2019. This is also due to the fact that the wind energy plants were finished in Norway. I don't want to say too much about the Grid. It's a very reliable situation there. And I'll remind you of the Swissgrid situation -- or the Swissgrid payment, rather, that we can feel here. Now Services, they have shown beautiful growth of 32% in 2020, especially due to the acquisitions, especially in the last quarter. I'll remind you about swisspro; LTB Leitungsbau in Germany; and ingenhoven, the architect, in Germany. On the right-hand side, the EBIT has seen a plus of 17%, and that was a bit disproportionate. This is -- this has to do with the COVID-19 effect, which led to us not achieving the same productivity on building side because of all the measures that needed to be taken, so quite some setbacks there. However, that only had an impact on the first half year of 2020. And then in the second half year of 2020, Services was very strong in Germany as well as in Switzerland, and we were able to compensate quite large part of the loss we had in the first half year. So this shows how robust we are, how solid we are that we can compensate setbacks, especially on the architectural side. The margin has gone back a little bit from 7% in 2019 to 6% in 2020. This is due to COVID as well. In the margins, all the acquisitions and integration costs are included. If we only want to look at the operative figures -- operating figures, we would have to add approximately 0.1 percentage point. So we're at a margin of approximately 7.5% to 8%, which is a very good result. Now all in all, the market has reacted to our great result -- or it has rather been reacting for quite some time now. Now you can see the figures from 2014 to 2020 here. 2014 was the year where we started with the new strategy. And we moved away from SMCI as the index that we compare ourselves to. And the distance to SMI (sic) [ SMCI ] becomes greater and greater over the years, especially in 2020. SMCI didn't perform very well in 2020, and we were able to gain even more distance here. On the other side, you can see the market capitalization, which mirrors what happens on the left-hand side. We started with CHF 1.6 billion and we end with CHF 5.2 billion in 2020, which is tripling the amount. If we look at the total shareholder return, which is what you can earn with our share, it's where we see that we have, since 2014, had a total shareholder return of 335%, which annualized is 23% on average every year. In 2020, we even had a record result of 42%. Now based on this information, we proposed to increase the dividend from CHF 2.20 to CHF 2.40. You can see a nicely constant -- or nicely solid increase we had. We're at double the dividend that we had in 2013, and we're well within the communicated range when it comes to the payout ratio. Now this is it for me, and I'll hand back to you, Suzanne.

[Interpreted] Thank you, Ronald. I would like to present our strategy and give you an update and an outlook for 2021. We are expecting an operating profit for 2021 in the range of between CHF 420 million and CHF 440 million. This is based on the following main drivers. We see a further profitable growth of the Services business that developed very well in the second half of 2020 and continues to develop well in 2021. We have hedged energy -- electricity prices. That's a new situation, and that gives us some upwind. We are always communicating a normalized trading result in '19 and '20. We exceeded the normalized trading result, but we cannot assume that we can repeat this every year because there's a lot of volatility in the markets right now without really seeing a clear direction. And then what has a negative effect on the results of 2021 is that we need to have a large-scale overhaul at the nuclear power plant Leibstadt. So the power plant in Leibstadt will not be able to produce for about 0.5 year. So this brings us to the estimate of CHF 420 million to CHF 440 million operating profit. Of course, we will have to work hard to achieve this. This is not all set in stone and achieved, not at all. In our strategy and our development, we are more and more focused on sustainability. This is a trend, and many companies are saying that. And there's also a necessity behind that obviously. But we can achieve more sustainability with our business models. There are many important initiatives that will help us come closer to the global sustainability goals of the UN Global Compact. We fully support the goals of the UN Global Compact. And the initiatives that you can see on the slide is -- are the ones that we can contribute to. Then we are focused on energy, infrastructure and buildings. In buildings, 50% of the energy that we produce is consumed. Then there is -- it's a fact that the climate is getting more and more extreme. The weather conditions are more extreme. And in the field of energy, we have a focus on renewable energy in Europe. In the Western European countries, we want to exit nuclear power and also fossil fuel energy production. So this is something we do as a society but also as a company. We at BKW, of course, have to take into account the changed customer needs, the evolving customer needs. And in order to be profitable and do this job well, we have to offer overall solutions and produce electricity with a holistic view. Let's just mention electrical mobility that is gaining steam as it were in Switzerland or gaining momentum and photovoltaics, too. So this is a very interesting market for us. And flexibility in energy production is essential. More and more, we will have photovoltaics in Switzerland, but these systems produce mainly in the summer and during the day. And we will have to offer solutions to have an efficient energy production and balance it out with energy consumption also in difficult situations. This means that the value that we have in our assets have to be maximized systematically, and this means that we produce electricity when the distributed production cannot supply and then at higher prices. Trading is playing a more and more important role in this whole value chain. The management of our own assets is relevant here so that we can sell energy at times when it is really needed. And there are more and more fluctuations in the European energy system, and that's why this is a driver. We are advancing our know-how and investing capital. And positive thing is that this harmonizes with the needs of society because society needs a stable and decentralized energy supply. Of course, this also involves infrastructure that has to be built. On the one hand, this includes aesthetic but also efficient buildings that have to be coupled with elements of artificial intelligence for unified power grids and more. So we are building know-how in this area, too. Then digitalization in the construction industry is an important element in this development. BIM, building information modeling, is nothing new really, but what is new is that this competence is being used more and more in the construction industry, in planning but also in execution. That's the driver that will bring about a big step in increasing efficiency. And BKW has a competence center for the company as a whole. And together with customers and BKW Engineering, we are applying these methods in practice and executing on them. We're very proud of this initiative. We have prominent competitors and also included some of them in the various teams and think tanks that we have. So what we are doing is we are positioning BKW in this new environment with the mega trends: climate change, digitalization, urbanization, more and more people living on smaller surfaces with enormous demands, society that wants to live more sustainably but also wants to have a good life. And the drivers are in energy and in buildings and in infrastructure. And this is what we focus on: energy, power grids, engineering, et cetera. So we are optimally positioned. These competent brands are more and more collaborating, and we are involving our customers whenever we're dealing with a highly complex project. And when our customers need a host of competencies, then we are a good partner. We have a broad spectrum of competencies that can cater to the various needs of our customers at the various places in the world. So this brings me to the end of my talk. So we want to strike a balance between prosperity and environment in growing markets. So we want to position our company right there and grow in these markets. That's our vision for the future. Thank you very much.

[Interpreted] Thank you very much, Suzanne Thoma and Ronald Trächsel for your explanation. Now it's your turn, ladies and gentlemen. This is the opportunity for you to ask questions. We have already received some questions. We start with the first one right away. The first question is by Radio Berner Oberland. There are 2 questions actually. The first one, despite a difficult year, there has been a record profit. What are the reasons for that? And the second question is a preview for 2021, the goals, et cetera. We've heard a few words about that. Maybe you can still say 1 or 2 words about that.

[Interpreted] Now [ BKW ] is in a good position in growing markets. Some of those markets did have their difficulties in 2020. However, we are very solid, which meant that we could balance the difficulties we had in some areas with other areas. We are particularly proud of having been able to balance out or compensate the loss we had because of Mühleberg. Now we have an operative profit of CHF 420 million to CHF 440 million, which we forecast for 2021.

[Interpreted] Now the next question is by [ Mr. Julian Vici ]. We remember that in 2020 -- 2018, there was an expectation that there would be CHF 20 million profit. What's it look like now?

[Interpreted] Well, it still looks more or less the same. These areas are fairly solid and stable. It's definitely not due to the regulated areas that we make more profit. They're stable. There hasn't been much change in 2020. So the 20 and the 70, they are still fine for this year or the coming year.

[Interpreted] I would like to add something. Monopoly is not -- the wrong word for this. It's not quite correct however. It's regulated monopoly, which means that the state stipulates how much we will be able to make on the investment we make. If we have the same capital in different markets which aren't part of the monopoly, then the profit by BKW might be more volatile, true, but it would be higher as well.

[Interpreted] Another question by [ Julian Vici ]. We heard before that we are talking about a tendency of rising energy prices. Which means -- what does that mean for our customers?

[Interpreted] Well, that means that our customers -- well, actually, it doesn't mean anything to our customers. The cost of the production for the electricity plus the small margin on the invested capitals are introduced or part of the tariffs. So they can be part of the tariffs or they might have to be part of the tariff. The clients or customers might have an advantage there. Any surplus might go or might be part of the cost of BKW. So depending on what it's going to be, it might be good for BKW or for the customers.

[Interpreted] From [ Mr. Christian Reese ], what perspective do you see for the gas business of BKW?

[Interpreted] Yes. Well, I can say something about this. As it is right now in the competition in Switzerland, it means that gas will probably remain a need for BKW. We did make some headway. We have won over quite interesting clients. However, it's still not a dynamic market in Switzerland, which means that we expect a lower level but healthy development here.

[Interpreted] Next question from an analyst, Mr. Daniel Koenig from Mirabaud. Could you explain why normalization in trading is expected? Is the competitive environment changing?

[Interpreted] Yes. Well, the competitive environment does not change particularly, no. When it comes to volatility, we had quite a similar volatility as in 2019, which is quite a good environment to react on in trading. On the other hand, we have to say that in 2019 and 2020, we had quite a clear tendency -- volatility but with a tendency in the prices which confirm -- which was confirmed quite strongly. These are figures that we don't know for 2021. We do have volatility, yes, but we do not have a clear trend with regards to the prices, not even on a short-term basis. So these might change on a weekly basis, which makes it more difficult to position ourselves on the market or in trading. It's also difficult to forecast how well positioned we are. We are positioned the same as we were in the past on quite a large scale in the market. We're not only looking at energy prices. We're in commodities as well, all kinds of capacities. So we are always trying to make sure that we have a good know-how of what is happening on the market in general, and this is something that pays off. So yes, there is volatility. But we do not have a clear direction. And unfortunately, we're not going to get any clear direction because of the COVID situation right now. But these are -- this is the outlook for 2021.

[Interpreted] Another question by Leandra Varga from Radio BeO. There are people who think that energy prices in Bern are too expensive compared to the rest of Switzerland. What do you say about that?

[Interpreted] Well, you probably speak about total tariffs. So that's energy and grid tariffs which are fairly high. That's true within the BKW grid not because BKW makes more money off that. There is the regulated margin or the regulated interest in this capital, not least, for example, in the Bern Oberland. You will be able to tell that BKW has a grid where there are a lot of kilometers to be made. It's quite a challenging area, and this is set off by an area which might be easier. There are some areas where there are many customers, a lot of electricity is used; for example, Thun or Interlaken. So Bern Oberland is one of the more expensive grids for us.

[Interpreted] Now [ Mr. Driesen ] from [ Montel ]. Can you tell us about the hedging quotes or hedging ratios for 2022 and '23?

[Interpreted] We are not going to be able to give you any detailed information. However, you may assume that it will be 60% to 70%. So -- and the prices will be around CHF 50.

[Interpreted] Next question, Daniel Koenig, Mirabaud. How much was the demand for energy in your area? And are there any catching up effects in the grid in 2021?

[Interpreted] I assume the first question is with regards to corona. And the second one may be with regards to investments, I'm not quite sure. Well, the demand for electricity -- the consumption was more or less the same for [ free ] clients or that was in total in Switzerland. There was a reduction of about 10% in total last year. Is there a question with regard to catching-up effect in the grid? I'm not quite sure whether it's with regards to investments. So maybe you should ask your question more precisely, please.

[Interpreted] I would suggest, Mr. Koenig, to make your question easier to read. Now we'll continue with [ Anton Zana ]. Could you give us an indication with regards to the forward hedged electricity prices for 2021 and '22 as well as '23 with regard or compared to the level of 2020?

[Interpreted] Well, they hardly move. So there is no shift, not -- maybe from CHF 50 to CHF 52, but no great changes. The big changes that we have seen in 2019 and 2020, they have been excluded again.

[Interpreted] What part of the production has already been hedged by BKW? And is -- are they changing the strategy with regard to this?

[Interpreted] We are going to be close to 100% for 2021, so no change in strategies.

[Interpreted] And finally, the services -- or in the servicing business, there are investments envisaged with regards to engineering, et cetera. Where is the EBIT margin?

[Interpreted] Now we invest in engineering and building technology, infrastructure and servicing companies. And the goal with regards to these 3 areas is -- or rather, a realistic goal is maybe 8% to 9%, but that will be a very, very good EBIT margin.

[Interpreted] Then there is a follow-up question that is almost answered, the EBIT margin development in the Services business. I think we answered that. Then Jürg Meier, NZZ am Sonntag. What is the influence of the increasing CO2 prices in the long run?

[Interpreted] The electricity price is determined by many different parameters. Gas price is an important input factor that influences the electricity price and CO2 also. And the increasing CO2 prices are drivers, so that will have an effect on the electricity prices. They will grow. But there are many different effects.

[Interpreted] And the next question by Daniel Koenig how profitable was Leibstadt in 2020?

[Interpreted] Leibstadt was profitable in 2020, not quite as profitable as we expected because Leibstadt has a decommissioning and waste disposal fund that did not perform all that well, and this then has repercussions on the annual statement. The performance is around CHF 40 million, roughly speaking.

[Interpreted] The next question by Angela Truniger, St. Galler Kantonalbank. What about investments -- future investments? Can you give any figures, investments in growth markets mainly?

[Interpreted] I cannot give you any specific details. It really depends on the opportunities. We have attained strong positions in the markets that we are active in. So we are able to make acquisitions when they are sensible, when they strengthen our network and when they are in the right markets.

[Interpreted] Next question, [ Michel Grisdorf ]. What about the organic growth rate of BKW in the long term? Any indications?

[Interpreted] We are expecting to exceed the market growth, and I'm speaking of the Services business mainly. And organic would mean 2% to 3%, would be organic growth.

[Interpreted] Next question, [ Christian Afolda, Lajeffi ] to Suzanne Thoma. With a view to the political discussion on the splitting off of the Services business, can you give us some more details? And can you give us some examples for synergies?

[Interpreted] Yes, I can do that. There are various examples. Let's take building technology. If somebody wants to produce electricity and wants to market this energy in an optimum way, we can offer building -- a building solution or building solutions that connects the photovoltaic system and the electricity management system, and we can sell optimized energy products in this way. This is something that is happening more and more, not only for small projects but also for larger projects because the customer has better resources. Sometimes it is very difficult to offer an overall solution, and it's one of the services that we can offer as a large group.

[Interpreted] So our CapEx in the grid minus depreciation, CHF 8.7 million. Why is there such a significant difference vis-à-vis 2020? That's the next question, Ronald. So what were these projects?

[Interpreted] We do not want to build new kilometers of grid. It's more investments into the management of the grid, smart meters, et cetera, and the investments are around CHF 25 million. There will be more depreciation. That trend will continue in the next few years. The distance will become smaller and smaller, so the figures will come closer. So we will invest around CHF 125 million.

[Interpreted] Mario Graf from the energate gmbH. On acquisitions, you wrote vis-à-vis the Bernese government that BKW had moderate growth plans in services.

[We do not have any sound right now. We apologize. No sound for the interpreters, sorry. We apologize. We do not have any sound right now. There seem to be some technical problems, no sound. The sound engineers seem to be working on it. We apologize. We do not have any sound right now.]

[Interpreted] Thank you, [ Therese Hani ]. She makes reference to the Bernese cantonal parliament that is dealing with a question on the bodies involved in a cantonal company. There seems to be some unease on salaries and bonuses and remunerations. Is BKW taking this seriously?

[Unfortunately, the microphone of the CEO does not seem to be working. So would the sound engineers please see to it.] [Interpreted] So we want to be top in our industry, and we are certainly not among the people receiving the highest salaries. [Unfortunately, the sound quality is too bad. The microphone does not seem to be working.] [Interpreted] If we compare with other companies who have similar market capitalization, we are on average. So we have lived up to this requirement.

[Interpreted] Thank you. Next question to Ronald Trächsel from Daniel Koenig. What about the trading profit?

[Interpreted] Thank you. We do not give any information on this, and let me explain this. If you do trading, the trading success is not looked at a period of 1 year. The period look at is at least 4 years. And to break this down to 1 year does not really make sense. So we would not have a very good key ratio. So the trading profit is not what we look at on an annual basis.

[ Michel Schneider ]. Should we expect to see more investment in M&A in services or renewables? And what is the ideal debt level? Thank you.

Yes. Indeed, you will most likely see more investments in renewable and also in the service area. And with our strong balance sheet we can carry out this investment without coming into an undue debt situation.

[Interpreted] A follow-up question by [ Biyar Tanika ]. He is also asking about acquisitions and focus there. What industries, domestically or in other countries? Suzanne?

[Interpreted] We are focused in the countries around Switzerland, Germany and Austria for the Services business. For Energy, we are focusing on Europe as a whole. And in all areas of the Services business, we see growth opportunities, and we will grow where we see the best opportunities. Acquisitions cannot be planned in the same way as other elements of corporate development.

[Interpreted] Thank you. A question by Angela Truniger, St. Galler Kantonalbank. Can you be more specific on the energy a bit? What about management and trading in this respect?

[Interpreted] On trading, there, we cannot be more specific. Sorry to disappoint me -- you. Energy, there, you can assume that with regard to the production that we are selling in the market, that's 80% of our production. We are slowly but surely coming closer to a black 0. And with regard to distribution, as we said, we have the 20 million that we get from domestic supply. And we are hoping to arrive at the black 0 there, too. So we are not able to make a profit there due to the market prices that we have.

[Interpreted] Next question by [ Armin Reitsberger ] from [ Telkavi ]. What were the developments of the prices of the electricity already sold in 2021, '22 and '23? Well, that was a flat development, as already said. [ Cyan Drazo ], three questions, one after the other, I'd say. The first question was that in the communication to the media, BKW was looking at its setup for the distribution network. What does that mean?

[Interpreted] Well, we work in different areas, not only in the canton of Bern but also in Solothurn, for example. And there are always questions with regards to the optimum management, optimum setup in order to handle the costs. So we always look into harmonization in this area.

[Interpreted] Well, I think that BKW especially thinks about opening the market, new electricity act, et cetera. So we need to rethink our setup, and we are definitely thinking towards a unified grid.

[Interpreted] Second question is -- I've got a very quick answer to that. There hasn't been any change with regards to the communication of the Administrative Board. This is still the communication thus far. And with regard to sustainability, whether there are any goals with regards to CO2 production or emission.

[Interpreted] Well, yes, one core point of our positioning is that the solutions we have in infrastructures and building wants to make a commitment and contribution to the reduction of CO2 emissions, not least for -- with our clients. This is our position. Obviously, we do, ourselves, also work on positioning the company that way. And in 1 year's time, we will give you a more detailed report with regard to the reporting in this area, and you will be able to see our development there.

[Interpreted] [ Mr. Hubb Scholtz ] from [ Devond ]. Are there any changes with regards to the decommissioning of Mühleberg? Is there -- are there any specific plans for the area, for the grounds, whether there might be a power plant with gas, et cetera?

[Interpreted] We are quite pleased with the development there. We're in time and in cost despite some difficulties that we had to face in 2020 because of the current circumstances. However, things are working well there. There are no news with regards to that, and I do not have any news either with regard to the further use of the area. It also depends on the framework conditions at the time when we need to make this decision. So it's not quite time yet to think about this.

[Interpreted] Mr. Koenig has made his question more precise now with regard to the catching up effects with regard to the EBIT in 2021. The grid is regulated with WACC. Has the regulated asset base in 2020 increased?

[Interpreted] There was no change with regards to WACC. In 2017, it was -- it has gone down to 2.8. However, because of our grade, we still have some differences there that we are getting rid of. And as said last year, we will continue this way until 2022. So until then, there shouldn't be any catching up effects -- or no other catching up effects.

[Interpreted] From [ Mr. Schneller ]. How large was the EBIT contribution of the new renewable energies in Norway, for example, in 2020? And how large will the contribution be in 2021 to '23?

[Interpreted] The EBIT contribution of wind is between 40 million and 50 million. And the further development is according to the way we are set up. It's going to, say -- where it is right now, there are no further plants in construction. We are willing and we do have the power to acquire or build new wind power plant. However, the returns have to be correct. And the returns, as you can see in Europe, there might be a boom, yes, but they aren't quite the returns that we would expect. So yes, we are presumably going to continue to invest. However, we're going to do that in a hedged way or in a very focused way.

[Interpreted] Second question by [ Mr. Schneller ]. The 33% contribution to Wilhelmshaven in Germany, what's the long-term development there?

[Interpreted] Yes. The nuclear power plants -- sorry, not the nuclear power plant, the power plant in Wilhelmshaven, coal power plant, when it comes to perspective, it's also impacted by the decommissioning with regards to coal energy in Germany. This is going to happen at some point. However, we don't know quite yet at what point, and we don't know, therefore, the impact on Wilhelmshaven. Currently, we are still operating in Wilhelmshaven, and it is profitable. And we're obviously having a very close look at developments in -- on the markets.

[Interpreted] I cannot really add much to that. 33%, we're still there. Currently, it's profitable. We are closely looking at what is happening there. We -- the development in Germany still is that there is a decommissioning until 2038. That is what we know thus far.

[Interpreted] I am going to push one question forward. I think we -- it's a good question for the end. What's the development in the gas production?

[Interpreted] We don't really see a long-term future for BKW there. But we do see that gas is a technology that could be a transitional technology with regards to the use of renewable energy and actually facilitate the use of renewable energies. Because nuclear power plants will be decommissioned and then we will have to rely on a mix of different types of energy. And then at the end of the day, this can be a contribution to a more renewable supply system in the future. So I'd say that our position is neutral. If there are good businesses there, that might be worth it because it's also part of our strategy to rebuild or renew the supply system.

[Interpreted] Now the final question by [ Mr. Grisdorf ], a follow-up question with regards to the organic growth. You underlined the Services business, which means that probably the remainder of the businesses is stable.

[Interpreted] Well, I wouldn't say that. The Energy business has different components. It moderately -- is moderately rising. With regards to Energy, there are fluctuations there. With regards to Energy, we are looking at investing in wind energy again, but we are going to think about this once it becomes pertinent. So yes, you are right in a way. There is the Energy business, but the Services business is growing faster.

[Interpreted] There is another question that has just arrived now. So the 50 from the reply to the hedging question, were -- was that Swiss francs or euros?

[Interpreted] That was Swiss francs.

[Interpreted] Now I can't see any further questions for the moment. So I would suggest that we will give you 0.5 minute if you wish to ask further questions before we wrap it up for the day. Well, it looks as though you had the opportunity to ask all the questions you have. There are no further questions. Thank you very much for your interest in this event, our analyst and media conference, and we're looking forward to meeting you again in September. Have a great day, everyone, and a great end of the week.