BlackBerry Limited (BB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, everybody. Greetings. I'm John Chen, Chief Executive Officer of Blackberry Limited and Executive Chair of the Board of Directors. On behalf of the Board and the management team, it is my pleasure to welcome you to the annual -- to the company's annual meeting of shareholders. As we did last year, we are hosting our meeting in a virtual-only format through a live audio webcast to mitigate risk to the health and safety of the company's shareholders, employee and other stakeholders related to the pandemic. Last year, we also found that the virtual format was more inclusive, and many more shareholders were able to join us than at our in-person meetings in recent years. Even though the meeting is in the virtual format, procedures have been implemented to ensure the shareholders and proxy holders regardless of their location will be able to participate in this meeting and engage with us. Registered shareholders and valid proxy holders who are participating online will be able to listen to the meeting, submit questions and vote in real time. This year's beneficial shareholders will also be able to submit questions through the online meeting platform. The secretary of the meeting will cover the procedures for all of this in just a moment. With that said, it is now my pleasure to introduce the member of the company's Board of Directors who are in attendance on this webcast today. They are Mike Daniels, Tim Dattels, Lisa Disbrow, Dick Lynch, Laurie Smaldone Alsup, Barbara Stymiest and Prem Watsa, as well as Wayne Wouters. In addition to the board, we also have members of the company's executive team attending this webcast, and we are also joined by Phil Kurtz, the Corporate Secretary and Deputy General Counsel of the company. The formal part of the meeting will be chaired by me and will include my annual update on BlackBerry's strategy and performance. Following the completion of the formal business of the meeting, we will address questions submitted by shareholders. I would now like to call this meeting to order. And as Chair, I will ask Phil Kurtz to act as Secretary of the meeting. Phil will now go over the procedures and items for this meeting -- item of business for the meeting.

Thank you, John. I'd like to start by highlighting a couple of important procedural matters that apply to our virtual meeting relating to questions and voting. Questions can be submitted by any shareholder or proxy holder who logged in with a control number or user name using the messaging feature of the virtual interface. If you're logged into the meeting as a guest without a control number, you will not be able to submit questions. Questions will not be displayed, but will be read or summarized as appropriate. Generally, questions will be addressed only during the Q&A session after the formal part of the meeting. However, any questions related to procedural matters or that are directly related to matter of the business may be addressed earlier. Voting on all matters will be conducted by electronic ballot. Registered shareholders and duly appointed proxy holders will be asked to vote on each item of business only after the presentation of all the business items. In order to expedite the formal business of today's meeting, I will make all motions on voting matters. When you're asked to vote, you'll receive a message on the virtual interface requesting you to register your votes. You'll only have a certain amount of time to do so when the polls are open. Preliminary voting results will be provided during the meeting, and final detailed voting results will be published on the Canadian Securities Administrators SEDAR website and the SEC's EDGAR website and on our website after the conclusion of the meeting. Pina Pacifico of Computershare Investor Services will act as scrutineer for the meeting today. I confirm that we have received the declaration of Computershare confirming that the notice of this meeting was properly given to all of the shareholders entitled to receive notice, together with the management proxy circular and form of proxy. Copies of the management proxy circular and other meeting materials are available under the company's profile on SEDAR and EDGAR and on the [ Envision ] website established for this meeting. I've received the scrutineers' preliminary report stating that a quorum of shareholders is in attendance. The scrutineer's report shows that there are shareholders or proxy holders in attendance on this live webcast today, holding 313,683,475 common shares of the company, representing 55.4% of the shares issued and outstanding. I therefore declare this annual meeting of shareholders to be regularly called and properly constituted for the transaction of business. The first item of business is a presentation of the financial statements of the company for the fiscal year ended February 28, 2021. These include the consolidated balance sheets as at February 28, 2021, and February 29, 2020 and the related consolidated statements of shareholders' equity, operations and cash flows, together with the auditor's report. Copies of these documents have been mailed to the shareholders who requested them, and they're also available on SEDAR and EDGAR. We will now proceed with the election of directors for the ensuing year. As determined by the Board, the number of directors to be elected today is 9. Information with respect to each of the individuals nominated for the position of director of the company was set forth in the management proxy circular, and each of the nominees has agreed to serve as a director if elected. As at previous meetings, we will be nominating and approving individual directors and not a slate of directors. By-law number A4 of the company sets out a procedure requiring shareholders to provide advanced notice if they wish to nominate any person for election as a director of the company. The company has not received notice in accordance with the bylaw from any shareholder intending to propose a nominee for election at this meeting. Since there are no other nominations, I move to elect the directors named in our proxy circular. Again, I remind you that voting on all matters to be acted on at this meeting will take place electronically after the presentation of all voting matters. The next item of business is the reappointment of the independent auditors of the company. I move that PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP be reappointed as the independent auditors of the company until the next Annual Meeting of Shareholders and that the Board of Directors of the company be authorized to fix their remuneration. The final item of business is the approval of our annual nonbinding advisory resolution on executive compensation or say on pay vote. This resolution provides that on an advisory basis and without diminishing the responsibilities of the Board of Directors, shareholders accept the approach to executive compensation disclosed in the management proxy circular. I also move that this resolution be adopted. That concludes all of the items to be voted on at this meeting. We'll now move to electronic voting on the items of business presented. As mentioned earlier, voting today will be conducted by electronic ballot. I'll now take a moment to ask that the balloting be open to registered holders and appointed proxy holders. Polls are now open. And at this point, all registered holders and proxy holders who have properly logged in with their control number or user name and wish to vote, will be able to see on the screen all motions brought forward at this meeting. Please register your votes by accessing voting page and selecting the for or withhold button next to the name of each proposed director and with respect to the reappointment of PriceWaterhouseCoopers as the company's auditors. And then by selecting the for or against button next to the advisory vote on executive compensation. We'll provide registered shareholders and proxy holders with another brief moment to complete their electronic ballots. [Voting]

Once the balloting closes, the voting page will disappear, and your votes will be submitted automatically. The scrutineers have provided me with a preliminary report of the ballots. On the election of the directors, all 9 nominees have been elected as directors of the company to hold office until the next annual meeting of the company in June 2022 or until their respective successors are elected or appointed. The motion to reappoint the auditors is also carried and PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP has been reappointed as the independent auditors of the company. These motions were carried by a substantial majority of the votes cast. Finally, the say-on-pay resolution was also approved by a majority of the votes cast. Nevertheless, the level of support for the motion was below our expectations. The Compensation, Nomination and Governance committee of our Board believes that the company's compensation program needs to be competitive in a challenging market for talent. The Board and the committee believe that the executive compensation decisions that were made during the past year were appropriate and necessary to attract and retain leadership to execute the company's strategy. With this said, while the resolution is advisory in nature and not binding, the Board and the committee will review the results of our vote today in connection with their ongoing evaluation of the company's compensation program. As noted earlier, detailed voting results will be published on SEDAR and EDGAR and on our website after the conclusion of the meeting. It's now my pleasure to turn the meeting back over to John to provide an update on the company's business. Ahead of that, please note that John's presentation and the Q&A session later in the meeting may contain forward-looking statements. Shareholders should be aware that any forward-looking statements are made based on certain assumptions and are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results, performance or achievements of the company to differ materially from those disclosed here today. We're adopting for this presentation the cautionary language regarding forward-looking statements that is set out in the company's annual report on Form 10-K to which we refer you for additional details concerning the risks, uncertainties and assumptions relating to our forward-looking statements. Please note that the slides for John's presentation are available in the Investors section of the blackberry.com website. And now John will conclude the formal part of the meeting.

Thank you, Phil, and there is no further business to come before the meeting, I declare the formal part of the meeting to be concluded. So for everybody, that I have a short company video to show you. And then right after that, I will do a brief discussion of our performance and strategy of the company and then followed by Q&A. So could we please skew the video, please? [ Presentation ] Okay. I hope you liked the video. This video we are very proud of the fact that this is all done in-house without spending money outside the company and getting other people to do it. So it's heartfelt and genuine, I would say. I'm pleased to -- now to be able to provide you a, I would call the update or the state of the union update. I put up a slide here about 2 converging, very large market for us, one in cybersecurity, I'm sure that nobody would need me to explain more about all the ransomware that's coming on a daily basis. And also the whole idea of smart, we call it smart everywhere. And this is really -- later on, we'll talk about what is included, but it included obviously transportation, cities, devices, individuals and so far. And you could see that we put up a number of trends that we believe are what is really driving it. The -- let me start -- let me name a couple of them. For example, the top left one, and this really was driven by the fact that remote working has been picking up steam. Mobile is really the key primary devices people are using to interact with each other, with work, with home life. And with that advancement of mobile 5G and everything that's behind it, you could see the cybersecurity requirements goes up and the risk and the threats are increasing every day. So that's a big driver. There's also -- because of all these ransomware and the attack that some of them are highly visible in various part of the world, the supply chain security becomes more and more important, so much so that in the United States, President Biden most recently have announced a major effort in securing the Software Bill of Materials. And I'd like to comment on that a little later, but that's really play right into what BlackBerry could do and do well. AI/ML, as you all remember, in the last 3 years, we've been investing quite aggressively on embedded AI and ML at different levels of models. And we pride ourselves from doing the protect first strategy, which is shown in the video and is a differentiator for us, and we could discuss that later on also. Now Smart Everywhere, it is a concept with smart car as they connect to a smart city and smart home. We have a pretty good footprint in that, too. Things that have driven the Smart Everywhere, obviously, is this the whole concept of IoT, powered by 5G, powered by cloud computing, powered by quantum cryptology. And so you could see some of these very big trend in the market. Edge computing as well as cloud computing, the convergence of that is also a huge opportunity for the market and obviously for BlackBerry. So I'm very pleased to be able to show you that everything BlackBerry has been working on in the last X number of years, maybe even dated back way beyond the last 7 years of the company's journey to pivot from hardware to software and beyond that -- right before that, that we have so much technology and know-how in the areas that could drive and participate in these markets of cyber and smart. This early, as I said, is a large market. This, of course -- these markets combine today as a $45 billion total addressable market. 1/3 of that is IoT, the other 2/3 on cyber. But if you could see the estimate growth, the CAGR is about 19% compounded annual growth. But the interesting thing is you could see the IoT picking up quite a bit estimated for the next 4 years. And by 2025, it will actually be equal to the size of the cyber market. Although the cyber market expected to grow 50%, as you can see, from $30 billion to $45 billion or roughly $44 billion. So both markets are very robust, very, very big and very fast growing. Because of that, the beginning of this year, and this is really a journey that we've been on for a number of years. But the beginning of this year, we decided to create 2 business units then one go after the cybersecurity and the other go after the IoT market. But we also know that it shares a lot of technology to power these 2 platforms. On my slide here on cybersecurity side, it composes of the endpoint management and endpoint security, as well as secure communication, as well as critical event management. On the IoT side, it's really very much driven by the embedded OS, a brand that many people knows called QNX. And Blackberry IVY is the in-vehicle platform today, and will expand to other part of the IoT devices. Cryptology, we own a company called Certicom. And it actually specialize in Elliptic Curve Cryptography algorithm, as well as providing a security certificate PKI and various others highly secure quantum prevention, detection technology. So we're very proud of those technologies. Last but not least, we have a small business in asset tracking that is also tied very much to the whole IoT device and how IoT device take advantage of analytics, take advantage of the backbone of the network. But we also know, as I said earlier, that there are many technologies that we have that is really beneficial to both of these market trends. I have 3 of them, we label out there, 3 major ones. I'm sure there are a lot more. [indiscernible] is managed by our lab. There's a BlackBerry lab that focuses on future technology and also focus on the fact that these are mega trend that both of these products -- platform, as well as the market focused strategy could be utilizing. The obvious one is data lake. Earlier in the video, you saw us having being able to tap into 500 million endpoints. And so it creates a very big source of analytics, data and information. So we wanted to be able to share those information freely between the whole cyber platform, as well as the IoT platform. As we see it, it will converge, these 2 platforms, our Tier 2 market. Then, of course, the embedded AI/ML model. In the IoT world, obviously, each of the devices should be protected. And we have some very unique and differentiated technology that -- it's very light weight and it actually doesn't even need network or Internet update to continue to protect endpoints. So that technology, by the way, came to us through our Cylance acquisition. And then last but not least, we're talking about securing software -- secure software development platform. We've been developing software for highly sophisticated application in the last 30-plus years. As you all know, our cell phone, which, of course, we develop everything, all the software included, the most secure cell phone that ever existed other than a very specialized government cell phones and so forth, but at least for commercial application. So we employ and deploy a lot of our own technology and created a lot of technology to manage that life cycle, life cycle of development. So when -- we're very excited when the government started focusing on securing supply chain, especially on Software Bill of Materials, usually we call it the SBOM. So we believe that we could really help contribute to that development, and we actually were able to provide product and platforms to make that a reality. So it's a huge opportunity for us going forward. So what does that all combine to? And what does that actually mean to the market? What are the markets that we are really focusing on? And this is actually consistent for the last 5 years that we've been presenting our strategy. Our strategy is really in the heart of the smart city. It is in a -- we believe the -- securing the IoT, both the connections as well as the communication is something that we could do and we do well and the industry needs and the market needs and the society needs. So you could see here that we -- our dream is to connect everything that has -- that is IoT device, that has an IP address and be able to share the data, protect the data and connect seamlessly on a -- in either a continuously connected or occasionally connected fashion. So we started a lot -- we have a pretty good footprint in the car and in some of the major enterprises and governments, and we're going to expand from that point. And this is where the market validation comes in. And I'm going to share with you some of the highlights that we're very proud of. For example, coming from the left to the right, 18 of the G20 countries use our technology, either doing it for security reasons or connections of mobile devices or messaging technology among their own interactions. So there are many applications that we are in, in the G20 countries, so 18 of the G20. I think this week, we announced that an outside independent analyst firm have estimated that we have 195 million cars using our embedded software, QNX, and we agree with that because our internal count is also about the same. So we could validate that. And that number grew from 175 million a year ago. Despite all the pandemic, despite the slowdown in auto productions, you could see that we're picking up the market share quite nicely. I don't know of any other provider, technology provider or the competitors have provided these numbers. But just to -- loosely speaking, there's about 1 billion cars on the road, at least 20% of that is using BlackBerry. And then 500 million endpoints. So we already talked about that. It's going to be the basis of our data lake and analytics, and we believe that we could share the data between the cybersecurity world, as well as share the data between the IoT world. The next one is, again, this week announcement, we're very, I guess, excited about the fact that for us and FROST & SULLIVAN and again, an independent analyst firm had named IVY, I have a slide on IVY a little later, and named IVY a leader in automotive and smart city. That is right smack in the middle of our strategy. This is why it's exciting on that front. Well, I'll talk about IVY a little later, but it's an in-vehicle data platform, but it could expand beyond the in-vehicle. I'll give you a little bit more data. And then last but not least, 45% of Fortune 100 companies are good customers of ours, mostly very large enterprises, a lot of them in the regulated industry, financials, healthcare are probably the leading verticals today. I spoke earlier about we're going to talk a little bit about IVY. IVY was announced as a project in December 2020, December of last year. Actually, we've been working on this for x number of years. I almost -- I would say, almost 3 years. It started with putting AI technology in the car. And we actually demonstrated that at CES a couple of years back. So it was a joint activity -- joint development with AWS. Again, joint development with AWS is very rare. AWS has a lot of partners but developing together, they don't do very often. So this is a level of seriousness in the partnership. It is also -- we are also the exclusive provider of this particular technology in the in-vehicle data platform to AWS at least for a period of time. However, we also both agreed between us and AWS that for this to be commercially viable and a big opportunity, we should be able to interact and work with other people cloud beyond AWS. So therefore, our spec included the ability to connect to the Google Cloud as well as the Azure cloud of the Microsoft and other cloud. I'm sure later on, IBM, Oracle, we will be looking at those too. But initially, we will include Google and Microsoft. And so the activities really got formally kicked off in December 2020. As you could see on this time line, we already have done a lot of things, and we're very proud of the progress we've made. We launched Innovation Fund in March. We created an advisory council and announced it, I think, this week with a couple of very big names in the market. I know here the high-definition map providers, part of that our counsel, GEICO insurance is also part of the council. TELUS, a telecommunication -- one of the top 3 telecommunication in Canada, is one of the council member. And Cerence. Cerence is in auto and they are a spinoff of Nuance's and they specialize on voice recognition and integration into the guts of the car, so to speak. And so we're very, very pleased and very proud of the fact that we'll be able to create this council. And the idea of this is to create more use cases for IVY, for the in-vehicle data platform. Then we talked about the IVY being named as a market leader. And then we also announced, I think, today this morning that we have made our first innovation fund investment of a company, a start-up called Electra Vehicles. And this is very exciting because they use IVY analytics to manage the performance of the battery of the cars. So this is obviously mostly focused on electric and hybrid vehicle. So -- but it's very exciting what they could do and -- so stay tuned on that. And that will be one of the applications that IVY will be able to provide to the OEMs. We are on track to provide early access product in October, and we expect the first version of our platform will ship in February of 2022. So everything is on track. We're making a lot of progress. We're spending a lot of resources and time and money and energy in preparing for the market acceptance of this really great platform that we expect to do extremely well down the road. Okay. Moving away from IVY. I want to just briefly update you on the accomplishment of FY '21. FY '21 was a very strange year, as you all know. It was difficult to navigate because of the pandemic but we have accomplished quite a bit. And so the team has done well, even working remotely. And so I'm going to go through it very, very quickly, so bear with me. So the top left, BlackBerry continued to win a lot of certifications with the government -- government around the world actually, but Government of the United States, we're the leaders of that. And we are NIAP certified. We have classified standards as the video has said. We have commercial software for classified user to achieve that with DoD and sort of the list goes on and the list [indiscernible] and so forth. And we are FedRAMP certified, and that business is also expanding. We were able to block the 165 million attack or at least 165 million attack in ransomware or cyber attack in general. In fact, so much so that you sell them here and [indiscernible] and this is not a challenge, you sell them here that BlackBerry system or user has been attacked or successfully attacked. So we were able to prevent most of them, including the latest notorious one [indiscernible] Nobelium and there's a long list of names of different viruses and ransomware. Then we talked about the 195 million vehicle that embedded in using BlackBerry QNX software. And we also have 2,000-plus new patents granted and with 500 more being filed in a year. We launched 59 new products in a year to prepare for that platform that I outlined, which by the way, we're spending 24% of our revenue invested in R&D. And that's a high number. That's akin to a start-up type numbers. And we're very proud of that, and we'll obviously, as much as we could afford, we will continue to fund that activities. On the QNX side, we -- despite the fact that we have a slowdown because of the pandemic, a lot of our customers unfortunately have to shut down for a period of time, but we still managed to win 69 design wins. Design wins is important for us in QNX because the revenue cycle will start with the design wins, and it takes a very long time. So this is a very high longevity kind of a business cycle. So we have 21 auto wins and 48 generally embedded wins. And generally embedded including medical devices, other transportation, et cetera, et cetera, and manufacturing and so forth. So much so that on the electric vehicle front, the EV front, [ you count by volume, ] the top 25, we counted that 23 of 25 uses our software and account for about 68% of the market share. And we also are on track to be carbon neutral in 2021. In fact, I think we were -- I think people told me that in the last 5 to 7 years, we have reduced carbon footprint emission by 88%. On the financial front because of the pandemic, we actually suffered a decline of revenue, the revenue dropped by 16%, a lot [ of then ] primarily driven by the QNX royalty because of the planned shutdown, auto production shutdown. That said, our backlog for QNX royalty had gone up from -- by 9% from $450 million to $490 million. We are able -- because of some of the shutdown, we're able to manage our expenses well. We have an EPS growth of 38% year-over-year. We came in at $0.18 a share, with adjusted EBITDA of $167 million and that's a 12% growth, and it's roughly about 18% of revenue. So we have made a little bit of progress. We're obviously not done in pursuing the [indiscernible] model. We generated cash, $74 million. We have a good cash balance. We have a good reduction on the debt. That saves us -- I think, saved us about $16 million in interest a year, and our recurring software ratio is still at 90%. So those are actually reasonably good result in a very difficult year. In the last -- just to do a big wrap-up on the financial. In the last 5 years, our revenue CAGR grew about -- it was 11.3%. Just to remind everybody that this number does not include hardware revenue in this. And it also does not includes the service activation fee that [ power those ] hardware handset. Gross margin has improved by about 2,700 basis points in the same period of time. So my last slide, what are we working on and what are we investing? This is going to be a year that we're going to focus a lot on market, go-to-market -- our marketing go-to-market and growth. So -- and because we have a 2 BU and 1 lab system organization, so I'm not going to go through every single point. But then the cybersecurity side, we believe our product is now not only up to date with the market, it is even advanced, ahead of it. And in a couple of days on our earnings call, I'll talk a little bit about new products being released on the cyber side, which we are very excited about. And the most important thing is increase the channel reach, increase the market reach and increase the headcount to so-called feet on the street headcount. And that's going to be a continued investment for that cybersecurity business unit. We talked about the lab quite a bit. I think the definition of some of the trend on how we convert that into a product into offerings, the most important thing, and of course, with an eye of the future technologies. And we do a lot of university joint research also. So that's the lab priority. And IoT priority is actually even relatively simple. We will continue to make progress on IVY. We'll continue to invest in and also invent use cases for IVY. But on the QNX side, we're going to continue to upgrade, not upgrade, but continue to take advantage of increasing ARPU, the average revenue per unit growth in automotive. That only means that we're going to either get into more auto or more -- or bigger footprint in [indiscernible] auto. And we feel very good about it because I do believe that we are the top name in the industry. And of course, we continue to go expand on the general embedded market. So with that -- that's our material I've prepared. With that, I am ready for Q&A. Now before I do that, Tim Foote, our Head of Investor Relations, will provide details of the protocol for the question period, and he also will be one who moderate the Q&A.

Thank you, John. We will address questions submitted by shareholders and their proxies in attendance on this webcast for approximately 15 minutes. Shareholders and proxy holders have had the opportunity to submit questions in advance and may also do so now using the instant messaging feature of the virtual interface. As a reminder, we are unable to receive questions from guests who have not logged in with a control number or user name. We'll now give attendees a moment to submit their questions. We will answer as many questions as time permits. And before answering, we will read out or summarize the question. Questions that are redundant, offensive, not primarily related to the business of the company or otherwise out of order will not be addressed. Please limit your questions to topics relating to today's subject matter and keep your questions brief to give everyone a fair chance to ask a question. Okay. So John, the first question that we have is, in recent years, we've been heavily focused on profitability and cash flow. Given the investment plans you just mentioned, has your viewpoint changed?

Yes, that's a very good question. Yes, for those people who have heard me say in the past and now kind of my focus, when I first showed up at BlackBerry 7 years ago, I know we need to pivot the business. And profitability and financial stability was the most important thing. While we do that, we've continued to make investment while we can and to build the confidence of our employees and partners and customers in our company. So we did -- so we created a pretty good culture of making a profit. And I do believe that business is about making profit for the shareholders. And then business in software, particularly is about creating profit. That said, I think -- Last couple of years, I realized that the shareholders will be more rewarded for growth. And because we now have a pretty stable culture of not going to get into "financial trouble", so I have shifted gear a little bit or the team has shifted gear a little bit, we're going to be focusing now more on growth. Given the fact that we have 2 very big markets we talked about earlier, cybersecurity and IoT, given the fact that we participated quite deeply into it and given the fact that there are some emerging businesses like the secure supply chain businesses that we could participate in or a market we could participate in, I feel that this is a good time for the benefit of the shareholders that we should try to go capture that. So there will be a balance. And our idea is once the growth comes in, it will kick in the profit. So I think in the short term, we will spend a little bit more money maybe at the expense of some of the profitability. But again, it's going to be measured.

Great. Thank you, John. A number of shareholders, there's probably not much you can say on this, are asking for an update on the patent sale, if there's anything you can say about that?

No. Unfortunately -- yes, I know this is going to be question that will come up. We're in an ongoing discussion. I'm bound by the confidential nature of the discussion. So I really, unfortunately can't say much. I can only say that it is ongoing, it's making progress, and that's -- stay tuned.

Okay. Have you considered changing the name of the company back to Research in Motion? And this is a question that's come up a number of times.

Yes. It's always came up. I'd like to name Research In Motion. I think RIM is a really good name. I think it's also given the whole IoT world, the kind of the network-centric nature of our business. And the cyber part. I think on the move is really Research In Motion imply on the move. It's actually a very appropriate name. Have I think about changing it? Well, no, not at this point. I think right now, let's just focus on getting the growth of the 2 businesses, getting a good pipeline of products coming out and go to the market. Once we are in the -- in a more growth-oriented place, I will consider changing the name. I would -- at least I will consider recommending to the Board that we should change the name. This is not a John Chen decision. Certainly, not alone.

Okay. Excellent. We've got a question coming whether there's anything you can say about OnwardMobility. [indiscernible] is the company that's looking at it sort...

The OnwardMobility is the one that we license our phone technology to both the software as well as the hardware of it. And they are supposed to build a 5G keyboard BlackBerry phone. I know they have made good progress on that. I actually don't know much about the status. Our involvement really has been able to license the technology to them. And then if they need help in the technology, it will come back to us as professional services. So we're really not "involved" as much other than as a licensee.

Okay, super. Last question I've got here, John, is do you see IoT or cyber as having the biggest potential for growth?

The -- I mean if you look at the TAM or the total addressable market at the growth rate, they both have really high growth rate. And cyber is a bigger market today and the growth rate is 50% for the next 3, 4 years. And -- so -- and IoT is going to grow faster than that, but it's a little smaller today. So I think I expect both of the to grow. In establishing a 2 BU, I don't really have one preference over the other. The reason why they're establishing the 2 BUs is -- for the shareholders, so they have a better understanding of the potential of our business and a better reporting, so that they could track the progress of our business, makes all of us more accountable in that sense. And so that was one of the basic reason. And the other basic reason is, operationally, they're slightly different. So on the cyber side, it's really more on the enterprise sales cycle, 6 to 9 month sales cycle and really more of a software sale type motion. On the IoT side, as I said -- mentioned earlier, it's really about design wins, right? So it's different. And yes, the revenue doesn't come immediately, it comes a lot [indiscernible] because the cycle of the revenue is usually 5 to 7 years. And when it comes, it will be very persistent and very high margin. And in addition to that, IVY will bring us yet another business model which are more usage-based business model rather than a production count business model. So there are different approach to the business. I wouldn't pick one versus the other at this point.

Okay. Very good. Well, that's all we have time for now for the question-and-answer session.

Okay. Well, thank you for asking those questions. I don't mean you, I mean the audience. So that ends today's meeting. Thank you, everybody, for attending, and we very much look forward to welcome you again at next year's meeting, and have a good day.