BlackBerry Limited (BB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, everybody. I'm John Chen, Chief Executive Officer of BlackBerry Limited and Executive Chair of the Board of Directors. On behalf of the Board and management, it is my pleasure to welcome you to the company's Annual Meeting of Shareholders. Once again, this year, we are hosting our meeting in a virtual-only format through a live audio webcast to mitigate risks to the health and safety of the company's shareholders, employees and other stakeholders related to the COVID-19. We have also found that the virtual format is more inclusive and many more shareholders have been able to join us virtually than previously at any of our in-person meeting. Even though the meeting is in the virtual format, procedure has been implemented to ensure that shareholders and proxy holders, regardless of their location will be able to participate in this meeting and engage with us. Registered shareholders and valid proxy holders who are participating online, will be able to listen to the meeting, submit questions and vote in real time. Nonregistered beneficial shareholders will also be able to submit questions through the online meeting platform. The Secretary of the meeting will cover the procedures for all of this in just a moment. With that said, it is now my pleasure to introduce a member of the company's Board of Director who are in attendance on this webcast today. Mike Daniels, Tim Dattels, Lisa Disbrow, Rick Lynch, Laurie Smaldone Alsup, Barbara Stymiest, Prem Watsa and Wayne Wouters. As we noted in our management proxy circular, Barb has decided not to stand for reelection at today's meeting. And on behalf of the company and the rest of the Board, I want to thank her for the 15 years of leadership, dedication and advice. In addition to the board, we also have members of the company's executive team attendance -- attending this webcast, and we are also joined by Phil Kurtz, the Corporate Secretary and Deputy General Counsel of the company. The formal part of the meeting will be chaired by me and will include my annual update on BlackBerry's strategy and performance. Following the completion of our formal business of the meeting, we will address questions submitted by shareholders. I would like -- I would now like to call this meeting to order. And as Chair, I will ask Phil Kurtz to act as Secretary of the meeting. Phil will now go over the procedures and terms of business -- items of business for the meeting. Thank you.

Thank you, John. I'd like to start by highlighting a couple of important procedural matters that apply to our virtual meeting relating to questions and voting. Questions can be submitted by any shareholder or proxy holder who logged in with a control number or user name using the messaging feature of the virtual interface. If you logged into the meeting as a guest without a control number, you will not be able to submit questions. Questions will not be displayed, but will be read or summarized as appropriate. Generally, questions will be addressed only during the Q&A session after the formal part of the meeting. However, questions regarding procedural matters or that are directly related to an item of business may be addressed earlier. Voting on all matters will be conducted by electronic ballot. Registered shareholders and duly appointed proxy holders will be asked to vote on each item of business only after the presentation of all business items. In order to expedite the formal business of today's meeting, I will make all motions on the voting matters. When you're asked to vote, you'll receive a message on the virtual interface requesting you to register your votes. You'll only have a certain amount of time to do so when the polls are open. Final detailed voting results will be published on the Canadian Securities Administrators, SEDAR website and the SEC's EDGAR website and on our website after the conclusion of the meeting. Pina Pacifico of Computershare Investor Services will act as scrutineer for the meeting today. I confirm that we've received a declaration of Computershare confirming that the notice of this meeting was properly given to all the shareholders entitled to receive the notice and to the directors and auditors, together with the management proxy circular and form of proxy. Copies of the circular and other meeting materials are available under the company's profile on SEDAR and EDGAR and on the Envision website established for the meeting. I'm in receipt of the scrutineer's preliminary report stating that a quorum of shareholders is in attendance. The scrutineer's report shows that there are shareholders or proxy holders in attendance on this live webcast today, holding 303,049,876 common shares of the company, representing approximately 52.5% of the common shares issued and outstanding. I therefore declare this annual meeting of shareholders to be regularly called and properly constituted for the transaction of business. The first item of business is the presentation of the financial statements of the company for the fiscal year ended February 28, 2022. These include the consolidated balance sheets as at February 28, 2022, and February 28, 2021. And the related consolidated statements of shareholders' equity, operations and cash flows, together with the auditor's report. Copies of these documents have been mailed to the shareholders who requested them, and they are also available on SEDAR and EDGAR. We'll now proceed with the election of directors for the ensuing year. As determined by the Board, the number of directors to be elected today is 8. Information with respect to each of the individuals nominated for the position of Director was set forth in the Management Proxy Circular, and each of the nominees has agreed to serve as a director if elected. As at previous meetings, we will be nominating and approving individual directors and not a slate of directors. By-Law No. A4 of the company sets out a procedure requiring shareholders to provide advanced notice if they wish to nominate any person for election as a director of the company. The company has not received notice in accordance with the By-Law from any shareholder intending to propose a nominee for election as a director at this meeting. Since there are no other nominations, I move to elect the directors named in our proxy circular. Again, I remind you that voting on all matters to be acted on the meeting today will take place electronically after the presentation of all business items. The next item of business is the reappointment of the independent auditors of the company. I move that PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP be reappointed as the independent auditors of the company until the next Annual Meeting of Shareholders and that the Board of Directors be authorized to fix their remuneration. The next item of business is the approval of unallocated entitlements under the company's equity incentive plan. The number of common shares reserved for issuance under the company's equity incentive plan can be replenished in certain circumstances, such as when outstanding equity awards are forfeited or canceled before they're invested. The replenishment features of the company's plan are described in detail in the Management Proxy Circular. Because of these features, the company's plan does not have a fixed maximum number of shares issuable under it and is considered to be an evergreen plan. Under Toronto Stock Exchange rules, unallocated equity awards, being awards that remain available for grant under evergreen plans, are subject to shareholder approval every 3 years. Shareholders initially approved the company's equity incentive plan in 2013 and last approved unallocated entitlements in 2019. I move that the resolution on unallocated entitlements be adopted. The final item business is the approval of our annual, nonbinding advisory resolution on executive compensation or say-on-pay vote. This resolution provides that on an advisory basis and without diminishing the role and responsibilities of the Board of Directors, shareholders accept the approach to executive compensation disclosed in the management information proxy circular. I move that the resolution adopted. That concludes all items to be voted on at this meeting. We will now move to electronic voting on the items of business presented. As mentioned earlier, voting today will be conducted by electronic ballot. I'll now take a moment to ask that the balloting be open to registered holders and appointed proxy holders. Polls are now open. And at this point, all registered holders and proxy holders who have properly logged in with their control number or user name and wish to vote will be able to see on the screen all motions brought forward at this meeting. Please register your votes by accessing the voting page and by selecting the for or withhold button next to the name of each proposed director and with respect to the reappointment of PricewaterhouseCoopers as the company's auditors. And then by selecting the for or against button with respect to the approval of the unallocated entitlements under the equity incentive plan and the advisory vote on executive compensation. We will provide registered shareholders and proxy holders with another brief moment to complete the electronic ballots. And once the balloting closes, the voting page will disappear, and your votes will be submitted automatically. [Voting]

The scrutineers have provided me with a preliminary report on the ballots. On the election of the directors, all 8 nominees have been elected as directors of the company to hold office until the next annual meeting of the company in June 2023 or until their respective successors are elected or appointed. Motion to reappoint the auditors is also carried that PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP has been reappointed as the independent auditors of the company. The motion to approve the unallocated entitlements under the equity incentive plan is carried as well. Lastly, the say-on-pay resolution did not receive the support of the majority of the votes cast, and therefore, the motion is not carried. This outcome is very disappointing for the company and well below our expectations. During the past year, the company engaged with a number of its significant shareholders to better understand their perspectives on the company's compensation program. Also during the past year, the Board appointed Mike Daniels as the new Chair of the Compensation, Nomination and Governance Committee. And Mr. Daniels has participated directly in this investor engagement. We appreciate the comments that have been provided, including in the weeks since the filing of our Management Proxy Circular. The Board and the committee believes that the company's compensation program must remain competitive in order to attract and retain qualified leadership in a challenging market for talent. With this said, and while the resolution is advisory only, the Board and the committee will continue to solicit and consider feedback as they seek to optimize the structure of our program and align it with the long-term interest of the company and its shareholders. In due course, we will provide disclosure on the input that we receive and information on changes that we implement to our compensation approach. As noted earlier, detailed voting results will be published on SEDAR and EDGAR and on our website after the conclusion of the meeting. It's now my pleasure to turn the meeting back over to John to provide an update on the company's business. Ahead of that, please note that John's presentation and the Q&A session later in the meeting may contain forward-looking statements. Shareholders should be aware that any forward-looking statements are made as of today based on certain assumptions and are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results, performance or achievements of the company to differ materially from those disclosed here today. We're adopting for this presentation the cautionary language regarding forward-looking statements that are set out in the company's annual report on Form 10-K to which we refer you for additional details concerning the risks, uncertainties and assumptions relating to our forward-looking statements. Please note that the slides for John's presentation are available in the Investor Information section of the blackberry.com website. Now John will conclude the formal part of the meeting.

Thank you, Phil. As there is no further business to come before the meeting, I declare the formal part of the meeting to be concluded. Could you please start the video before my presentation. [Presentation]

Good day, everybody. I would like to make some remarks now about the state of the company, particularly about our strategy. We've been -- for those of you who've been our shareholders and followed our progress in the last number of years, in particular the last 3 years, you have noticed that we've been steadfastly believe in the coming -- of the connected world or what we call a smart world or everybody else calls smart world. And it's really meant to improve the quality of life. It will make us safer. It will make machines to machines make decisions faster, more accurate, and hence more productive. And it will make everybody's life, the quality of life much easier, much better. So we are on a mission to do that. We've been doing this for the last 3 years, inclusive of such acquisition like Cylance because we're very interested in their technology and capability to endpoint protection. And what the reason of all that is because that we're trying to build a trusted world. We believe the smart world only will work if it's a trusted environment. And I'm sure that you all agree with that. Now so having said that the last 3 years, we've been doing a lot of work putting things together. We believe that we are almost there, I wouldn't ever say 100%, but it's 90% there with our technology, know-how and thinking. And notice that in the beginning of the year of the fiscal year -- last fiscal year, sorry, that we have been putting together our organization that surround 2 business units. The idea of the 2 business units are really to drive execution excellence, to make accountability and to create transparency. And we strongly believe that this is a situation where the world will converge. And I'll talk more about convergence a little later. But the 2 business units that we created is the IoT and the cybersecurity business unit. And so let's go to the first, the IoT. These are just some examples. Again, the symbol of a smart city with some of the examples around what kind of function do we either served, performed or enabled. And as you can see here, in the IoT world, we colored -- the blue colored words, we rely on our IoT organization to provide the best connectivity and safety of endpoints. And I think about it as -- because the QNX operating system, the ID Middleware, I think about it as a construction layer. This is where you build the most trusted roots. This is why QNX is so much embedded in not only $250 million cost that was talked about in the video, but also in a lot of the chipset in NVIDIA or in Qualcomm, we're embedded into the Baidu autonomous driving platform and the list goes on. So we are not only embedded on safety, but we are now enabling the connectivity with Cloud Edge. We'll go more of that a little later. But those 2 are the functions. But the main focus are on connectivity and safety. Now when we move over to -- sorry, -- we move over to the cybersecurity side, again, same mission, building trust through connectivity, security, safety and privacy. But the cybersecurity are supposed to be very focused on security and privacy of the endpoint and all the connections. And in there, we have a lot of communication technology like secure messaging and secure voice technology, not to mention the endpoint that powered by AI/ML that we have integrated from Cylance and the higher certificate in security for our UEM management platform. So you have the IoT constructing, you have cyber managing and secure. And together, they will form a common great data lake. And this has been our -- I sometimes don't like the word strategy because it's so kind of overarching and not well defined. We are operating this way. So this is an operating strategy. And I feel very good about where we are today. We have a very experienced team. You probably know some of our members of our team. Obviously, it's very important that what we're doing has a very big market that we deserve. And you could see that the slide that I put up we only picked out where we could provide a solution, where a customer will actually purchase our technology and deploy it and what that TAM is like. Now in this TAM, the total available market, sorry. In this particular TAM, I didn't include [ IVY ] in this, which is the cloud to edge computing for sensor management, data analytics. They did include that for the total TAM. So it became -- it came to $97 billion by the year 2025 with an 18% compounded annual growth. And as you can see, bull markets is an extremely vibrant markets. And it's a really high-growth market. I'm very pleased that we focus and pick on the high-growth market. So therefore, there is no headroom issue going forward for us. I'd like to show some accomplishments in FY '22. We did return to have a small growth in revenue over the year before on software and services. As you all know, we have been trying to pivot the company from being a cell phone company in 2013, when I first joined the company, and truly pivot to software in the year 2016. So we are tracking software and services as our KPI. And you can see that the 6-year compounded growth rate is 11.2% on software and services. And the revenue from software and services is now representing 91% of our total revenue today. And that compared to 16% of our total revenue in FY '16 and 2% of the total revenue in FY '13 is software and services. So we are making good progress. And of course, we believe really good progress is yet to come. As far as some of our achievements, on the market side of the equation on FY '22, which we just finished. We have -- for example, I'm going to just pick a few of them, but some of them were stated in the video, you heard earlier. 500 million end points we have in our data lake. We are working very hard on making the data lake a much more reachable data lake, I would say. We announced this morning, for example, $560 million of QNX revenue in the backlog. And that was a 14% increase year-over-year. We also have very good penetration on QNX in the medical world and embedded medical devices. And obviously, the electric vehicle will also. So much so that 24 of the top 25 EV OEMs by volume by meaning by production volume uses QNX or employ QNX in their vehicle. We have 48 products launched last year, 29% of our total revenue devoted to R&D. And consequently, we created 1,400 or granted 1,400 patents plus around the world and still have 300 more to go that we're waiting for. And moving on to customers and partners momentum. So those of you who've been with our -- come to our shareholder meeting in the past that you have seen that we like to show and thank our customers and partners that supported us. And this list is carefully [ made ] with major commitment on the customer side. They're either brand new logo or somebody have a very major project with us. Example would be like Volvo. And we announced that Volvo trucks are going to be all based on QNX operating system for safety and that's, of course, is a huge commitment and also BMW and the list goes on. So we show you the customers list that we are very, very proud of that was actually achieved in FY '22 are either a major project committed to BlackBerry or they are brand-new logos to us. And similarly, with partnerships, either major partnerships that they either announced or start with us. They obviously -- a lot of these are not the first time. I think the first time will be Exabeam is the first time. That helps us on the data lake side of the equation. But Amazon is our big partner, a co-development partner in IVY. So this is why they are on the list. Another area that we're very proud of is our commitment to ESG. We are early -- we committed to ESG very early. I think at least 3 years past ago. We align ourselves up with the Standard for the United Nations. We declared carbon neutral. This last -- we've achieved carbon neutral this last year. We published our first ESG report. We also have numerous investment projects that are in encouraging diversity, sustainability project, Clean Water Act and the list goes on -- and partnerships in STEM education, for example, also. And some of those are in University of Waterloo. We have an indigenous people scholarship to support them into the STEM world. And so we do a lot of stuff and we're very proud of the team doing all this. As a result, we have a number of recognition. I'm not going to -- I'm not -- I leave it in the deck for you to read when you have time to do that, and the interest you do that. But I would look at this first column, Volvo and Microsoft. This is really about technology and product leadership recognition. Okay. The middle column with both the United Nations and Frost & Sullivan. It's really about mission, vision of SDG, vision of IVY, it's really about vision. And then the Yahoo! Finance quotes and SE Labs and the testing lab is an independent testing lab, it's really about product leadership. And so all market leadership. However, you think about it. So it's really about technology, vision, thought leadership as well as market recognition. For those of you who have joined, I think on May 12 this year, we had our Annual Analyst Day. We did it virtually, I think virtual or hybrid. And we reviewed -- we feel good about our execution plan now. So we review our 3-year plan and our 5-year plan, both for the IoT and cyber and the 2 presidents of the division were on deck to describe their plans and the assumptions behind it and so forth. So it was reasonably well received, I would say, good comments. And so these are the numbers that we're kind of holding ourselves to. You will notice that in the IoT CAGR, that's definitely -- that's actually doubled. I believe that the market is about 12% growth, somewhere between 10% to 12% growth. It actually doubled the market growth. And we have a whole bunch of reasons why, and we feel good about it. And particularly, we're very strong in the competent ADAS, digital competent ADAS world, which is its highest growing. And they are growing at -- one of them was growing at 29%. The other one is growing to 40% CAGR. So those -- so we feel that in our IoT, particularly with the transportation side, automotive side as well as now medical coming up, as a vertical, we feel good about able to grow at 20%. And the same thing with cyber. The total cyber -- the area that we cover, which are both management, security, and communication, that total bucket is growing roughly about 8% to 10% in a market survey. We believe that we could grow at 10%, which is the high end of the growth rate. I'm sorry, this clicker is a little stuck. Okay. So why did we believe, particularly in IoT, that we could grow faster. I spoke about the area that we participate in that we have a good footprint. But also, if you could look at -- since we've been tracking starting 2013, a number of vehicles that QNX is embedded into -- by the way, the QNX embedded into [indiscernible] is also naturally receptive to cybersecurity, particularly Cylance in the car, for example, and also particularly receptive to IVY being introduced to the space. So yet to come, those 2, but just to show you some level of synergy between what we're trying to do and operate. The compound annual growth rate is 34%. We had a fantastic year last year in design win. And we're going to talk more about it in the coming days. So you could see that an independent research firm that actually did the research and that survey and came up with the 250 million cars and using QNX technology. So that's one of the reason. And on the cybersecurity side, we counted 3 major pillars why we believe that we could win and grow. We have the secure mobility. We came from a mobility background. Tons of technology and patents behind our ability to deliver the most secure, corporate-owned devices or BYOD environment, the most -- the highest government security certificate. We are the #1. I think our certificates count is 11. Don't hold me to it, but I'm close to that. And we have tons of technology in [ doc sites ] management, device management, classified data handling and so forth. And then, of course, with the integration of Cylance, we have a ton of AI security technology, and particularly what Cylance is really good about leader in the market is the small footprint that continuously protection given without the Internet connectivity, lightweight and #1 in protect technology. And this list covers most and more of that. And then Secure Communications. We have literally end-to-end, we secure data, of course, from our heritage for the last 35 years. We secure a voice, all the analog signals, voice and text. We have the mass ad hoc, the notification system and that a lot of government users in particular, in the United States and also Canada. So and regulatory compliance, IM instant messaging, like BBM, for example, or BBM Enterprise. So 3 pillars of very strong technology that we believe that the world definitely needed and customers are interested in. So those are some of the major reasons why we believe that the growth plan we laid out that is about advanced market growth plan or 3-year and 5-year is logical, and we, of course, need to continue execution on that. I want to end our conversation here on my presentation with IVY. And this is something that we believe we strongly believe has a fantastic future ahead of us. This is not in the number of the 3-year and 5-year plan that I just presented. It was in the TAM size much earlier of the $97 billion, but it's not a number. So I consider this as an upside to our story, so to say. And this is a co-development project with AWS. Both sides have devoted a lot of resources and attention to this. We are building an edge to cloud platform that is able to not only read, transport sensor data, but could be able to create a [indiscernible] language above and beyond that. That also able to connect with application platforms with -- as well as with the AI platform and multiple number of clouds. And you could see that the IVY vehicle employed a lot of the technology in embedded operating system inside the chipset that is embedded in Qualcomm, for example, in NXP and NVIDIA. So it's a very comprehensive data platform and the edge to cloud connection platform. So lots of things to be done here, but a very exciting project. We're definitely the leader in the market for sure. And I want to show you the time line. We are proud to -- we launched some early POC, proof of concept, that is with OEMs. We have a lot of OEMs that responded to this that wanted us to run the proof of concept on their vehicle, on their [ net ] platform. We only will do a number of them before the November release, which is a big release for us because it has all the API and SDK, the system development kit that allow a more seamless POC that the OEM could do it themselves, for example. And then we expect some design wins this year, this fiscal year also. And then hoping that the revenue will start coming in, in the FY 2024 to '25 time frame. We also have a very rich ecosystem. Lots of application people already signed up. Some of them we have announced, a lot of them are our advisory partners. So we expand between telecommunication, insurance, predictive maintenance, intelligent, fleet management, battery management, so energy management and so forth. So and of course, maps and voice recognition also. So that concludes my prepared presentation. So before we address questions from the shareholders, Tim Foote, our VP of Investor Relations, here will provide details of the protocol for the question period.

Thank you, John. We're now going to hold a question-and-answer session addressing questions submitted by shareholders and their proxies in attendance on this webcast for approximately 15 minutes. Shareholders and proxy holders have had the opportunity to submit questions in advance and may also do so now using the instant messaging feature of the virtual interface As a reminder, we are unable to receive questions from guests who have not logged in with a control number or user name. So that's important to know. We will now give attendees a moment to submit their questions. We will answer as many questions as time permits. And before answering, we will read out or summarize the question. Questions that are redundant, offensive, not primarily related to our business or otherwise out of order, will not be addressed. Further, questions relating to our Q1 FY '23 financial results will not be addressed. Instead, we will defer to the earnings conference call scheduled for tomorrow. Please limit your questions to topics relating to today's subject matter and keep your questions brief to give everyone a fair chance to ask a question. Okay. So looking at the questions that have come in. So the first one, John, is in relation to the Pearlstein law suit. So I'll read the question. It says with respect to Pearlstein versus BlackBerry that we agreed to settle at $165 million. Was anyone on our Board or team given the opportunity to settle this lawsuit before February 28, 2022. And what information drastically changed between that point and April 6, which was the day we settled that would have meant that management team decided it would be reasonable to settle at that amount.

Thank you for the questions. So the company, both the Board and the management were prepared to go to trial on this case, which was -- actually, it's related to our cell phone launch I believe the Z10 cell phone launch. And it was before my time. It was also before a lot of the management people came here. So we felt very strongly positive about the case all along. And in fact, the case was, at one point, rejected by the court because they -- but they allow them to refile with more details. The case lasted a long time. As I said, it was before my time in early 2013 until this recent time. So a lot of things that happened. I think the attitude of the court has changed. We were on -- you said February 28.

Yes. So year-end, Yes.

We definitely, myself, taking the charge with the Board support, we definitely were against settling. We were doing witness interviews and mock trial and our teams, legal teams, inside and outside legal teams are showing up the New York, which is the venue of the trials and so forth. We got very strong push from the court to seek a settlement and assign a mediator, which, I would say, reasonably decent. And so both sides are going back and forth. We were spending a lot of management time. So at the last minute, we did get some advice, expert advice about the probability on both sides. It's not 0 versus 100, right? Always when you go to court trial and the demand. We were -- we believe that on balance, although it's painful on balance between what may be worse after the trial of the jury outcome is unpredictable and then, of course, the management time. We believe that we want to contain the damage and want to put this behind us, and we make that decision painfully. I mean those who know me know how painful that could be. And the people -- and I felt sorry for all the internal and external people that, that would be on that subject. But I believe it's a prudent decision. Given the attitude of the court, given the scoping of what could be -- could be 0, obviously, and what could be and except for the financial exposure potentially based on an unpredictable jury trial. And finally, based on their management time that we get.

Okay. And also, just a reminder, as at the end of February 28, accounting loss was not considered probable and certainly not [indiscernible] so therefore, there was no accrual on that basis. Okay. Next question is really about perception of BlackBerry as a cybersecurity company. The question is why is BlackBerry never mentioned on CNBC as a cybersecurity leader or even mentioned in the context of cybersecurity.

I believe that we are. We've been starting to get that recognition of being a cybersecurity company. I don't know what this referring to. But more and more, you've seen that we're getting the message out. We had a very successful RSA, which is the #1 cybersecurity show in San Francisco, just a couple of weeks -- a couple of -- yes, a few weeks ago early June. And lots of traffic. We got awards with the [ Myer ], which just happened to be independent testing agency. So I think we're getting there. We're getting there. I think we've got a long way there. So we will pay more attention to it.

Okay. Thank you, John. So we got 3 questions here, and they all relate to the same topic. And I'm not really sure how much really we can say. It's essentially about the patent sale, the proposed patent sale? And do you have any comments on that? Or do you prefer to defer that to tomorrow's earnings call.

Thank you for asking the question. It's been a long -- it's been a long journey. However, I still believe in that being the right thing for the company. And I also believe that there is a high volatility. We'll complete that -- I hate to give you a time frame because I've been given the time frame, and it's been wrong on you a few times. But I believe that we will complete this. So that's probably -- all I should say because I don't want to talk about a pending transaction. That's not fair to either side.

Yes. Okay. The next question is, I mean, it's related but not quite the same. It's how dependent are the 5-year plans upon completing the patent sale as it currently stands?

No, not -- I think the only dependency is the cash that we will invest in the business is really the pace of that investment, not so much that we have a cash problem. We don't have a cash problem. We don't expect to have a cash problem. So as we pointed out at the Analyst Day, we expect to use some cash and investment this year. We expect to have breakeven cash next year and then cash positive the year after. In addition to the revenue we're working on, we're also working on margin. We kind of people, we kind of plan working on margin to make ourselves more efficient to make our business more leverage. As the growth comes in, we should start seeing a drop to the bottom line, at least much more optionality than we are today. So I think there's no real critical dependency on the patent sale. It will be nice to put it behind us, and it will have a war chest much bigger than we would need it.

Yes. Okay. So that makes all the questions being received today. So thank you for that.

All right then. Well, that ends the meeting today. I want to thank everybody for attending. We look forward to welcome you again in the next year's meeting. I appreciate your support. I know it's been tough. But we are doing the right thing. We're working on the right thing and we're doing the right thing. And the market is wonderful. Thank you all very much. Have a great day.