Boa Safra Sementes S.A. (SOJA3) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Boa Safra Sementes' earnings call for the second quarter of 2025. This conference is being recorded, and you may watch a recording of it in the company's Investor Relations website, ri.boasafrasementes.com.br. The presentation is also available for download there. [Operator Instructions] Before we continue, I would like to underscore that any statements made about the future are based on the company's beliefs and assumptions and on information that is currently available to them. They may involve risks and uncertainties as they refer to future events, which, therefore, depend on circumstances that may or may not occur. Investors, analysts and journalists should understand that the macroeconomic scenario, the industry and other factors may lead to results that materially differ from these forward-looking statements. We have with us Mr. Felipe Marques, CFO and Investor Relations Officer. The Investor Relations team is also here with us. We will now hand it over to Mr. Felipe Marques, who will begin the company's presentation. Please go ahead, sir.

Good afternoon, everyone. It's a pleasure to be here with you for our earnings call for the second quarter of 2025. This is a moment that we work very hard for. We are trying to build the results that will come to for the rest of the year, and I think we have good information to share with you. So starting on Slide 4, as you can see on the screen, I'm going to briefly talk about our history. This company is relatively young. We have existed for 16 years. Our IPO happened in 2022 with Fiagro. We had our first M&A in corn, and we started our corn operation of the company then. In 2023, we introduced other crops to our portfolio, and we acquired a soybean. In 2024, we started a new business with Barter. We had a follow-on for the company, and we moved to Brasilia with our corporate office. And this year, in 2025, we had a CRA in January. It was BRL 500 million. We also had an acquisition with SBS Green Seeds going into the cover crop mix market. And we also expanded to the south of Brazil, renting two new units. So a lot has already happened in 2025. We recently got over the middle way point for the year, but we can see that a lot has already been done. I have some operational highlights for you as well. This had already been published. So we reached 280,000 big bags in installed production capacity. So this is a figure that we've already reached this year, demonstrating our robust growth. Here, you can also see the finished product in soybean seeds. And this was an atypical situation in -- that had never been seen in the company's history. So last year, it was 240,000 in production capacity, and now we overcome that with 280,000. And that was done through these 274,000 hectares and the integrated growers that were able to manage this production capacity. So we really increased our contracted area in order to have enough production safety and confidence. Our strategy so far has been very good as a company. And even despite being in a difficult year, we had droughts for many days that -- and many of our fields had to be discarded. So having this contracted area was truly essential to reach the current production capacity that we are at this year. And you can see this in our balance. When we compare our inventory of soybean seeds and comparing the second quarter of 2024 to the second quarter of 2025, we went up by nearly 30%. So the company's stock really shows the growth that we have been having in our company. The next slide shows our units. We currently have 16 across Brazil. The newest units are in the state of Paraná. These are rented units. And we also have a new unit in the state of Sao Paulo with SBS Green Seeds. So we are truly getting consolidated as a national company with diverse seed production. And this goes for production, but also in services and supplies. So we reached BRL 1.675 million in soybeans, which really shows the robust growth of our portfolio when we compare to the second quarter of 2024, which was BRL 1.168 million. And in this, we also have other crops besides soybeans, besides the figures we're showing here. So this is a truly diversified portfolio, which continues to grow. And it's very spread and polarized, and we've never had this until now. We are able to access more stores, and we truly have been able to have more polarization in our sales. Other crops and services, I think this is another point that people were skeptical about. So when we look at the last 12 months to reduce the seasonal effect, we went from 7% to 12% in our net revenue in the last 12 months of 2025. So when you look at the first half of 2025 and compare it to the first half of 2024, there was a 76% growth in revenue from new crops and services, excluding grains. So despite the high level of growth that we've been having in soybean seeds, we see that our other businesses are also growing and at a much faster pace. At 76% growth, this is already a relevant part of our company. And with this growth rate, we believe that these other businesses will become increasingly relevant as we can see in our strategic plan of diversifying businesses and optimizing assets and also optimizing our access to the market. Looking at our financial performance, the main highlights here were a significant growth of 43% in net operating revenue. This is due to advancing offloading of soybean seeds, which makes our gross profit generate much more added value from our products. This is really where our margins are. So there was a leap in our gross margins from 31% to 47%. And our EBITDA margin drops. When you look at this on a percentage basis from nearly 20% to 15%, this is significant. And this is due to the growth that we are proposing for the company. When you look at the total seeds that were produced in the past and compare it to this year, it was around 40% growth. So the company got prepared to grow by this level of 40%, and there are many expenses here in SG&A, which were contracted for this growth. Many of these sales took place in the second half of the year. So we tend to see a reduction in our EBITDA margin because of SG&A because revenues are much more concentrated in the second half of the year. And I've also mentioned our adjusted EBITDA. If we add in our noncash effects and derivatives, we can truly see how our adjusted EBITDA is in line with what we saw in the second quarter of 2024 despite the growth that we have been seeing. The company's net margin also remains flat when you compare it to our adjusted net profit for the company. It is also in line with what we had in the second quarter of 2024, excluding, of course, the minority share to put it on a comparable basis. So this quarter was about preparing the results that we are going to get by advanced sales and -- in other crops, but we are getting prepared for the next quarter, which is when sales actually take place. Now looking at some of our financial highlights. We always like to look at the LTM because that reduces seasonal effects. This is capturing the end of 2023, which was stronger for us. And we can see that the last 12 months have been flat in terms of gross operating revenue. From the adjusted EBITDA perspective, there was a reduction of 19%, reaching BRL 208 million. And the same is true for our adjusted net profit, which considers an issue that we had last year with our harvest. So these are effects that led to an impact and that's going to give us a good comparison with 2025 at the end of the year, which is when we will conclude our sales for this year. Considering CapEx, our company has been investing hundreds of millions in CapEx throughout the years. This was reduced significantly as a company. So that is a relevant point. The cost of cash is higher, and we're trying to optimize our asset utilization. So although the company is capturing cash with low spreads, at the end, the nominal values are very high. So with interest rates above 15%, we believe we have to be very careful with our investments. And that's why we're being so diligent and conservative to try to find ways of optimizing so that we can continue to expand without requiring investments in units or in greenfields. The south of Brazil is a major example of that. We were able to go there without having our own units by renting. And with that, we're able to go into a region where we've become relevant. You'll see our sales at the end of the year in the South, but this, of course, without mobilizing any assets. This is what we're pursuing in the company to better use our capital. Debt schedule. We're very proud of showing the company's debt profile. Our current liquidity is excellent, and this is due to the CRA operation that we had earlier. So that gives us a current liquidity above 3. From the gross debt perspective, we see a large concentration in the CRA that was issued, which represents 58% of our gross debt. And here, we see the amortization schedule. 90% of our debt is long term. So that gives the company a lot of comfort in such a tough moment for the market with interest rates and the cost of capital being so high. We're very well positioned with this liquidity level. And we always say that having liquidity does not mean that we're not going to optimize our cash. As we discussed before with our CapEx, we're very diligent as a company. Even with the liquidity we have, the company needs to be confident, comfortable and healthy. And I think we have benefits in the market of being averse to risk. We're demonstrating a lot of comfort for the banks, our lenders and our CRA in how we're allocating capital in our company. Our accounts receivable are shown here. There's a relevant point because we were very concerned about the fact that our accounts receivable had gone up, and it really did in comparison to the previous year. Our concern was that there could be issues here with defaulting. We saw a lot of this happening in the agribusiness market. But it demonstrates that we were able to maintain a level of BRL 12 million. We had a new policy in the company that was very rigorous. So if any accounts receivable expire, we are able to negotiate. And for the next quarters, we're going to reverse this trend. We try to be rigorous about this so that no one is mistaken with their expectations. So even despite being in such a difficult year for agribusiness with high default levels, we can see that our accounts receivable went up, but it was only -- the amount of receivables only went up by 1% to 2%. So that gives us a lot of confidence in our portfolio. And as the quarter progresses, we'll show how we can negotiate and recover this, and you will have full visibility of that. But this is something that's important to share with you because it shows the company's history and reduces that concern. We'd like to underscore that in the company, we're very diligent with the sales that we are making. And that includes the new orders of BRL 1.7 billion that we presented before, which will be received in the second half of the year. So from the company's financial health perspective, we can see the company's adjusted net debt. I often get asked about the holding without Fiagro effects. So you can see that our net -- our adjusted net debt is very low. It went from BRL 235 million last year to BRL 436 million, and it is low because we are at our worst cash moment. We advance payments on royalties. We buy raw materials. And usually, month 6 is the worst moment for cash, but it's a very short period, and this is transformed into actual results and cash starting in the third quarter and continuing in the second quarter. So this is a very short period. And what we usually say is that at the end of the day, it's about money. Advanced payment of royalties is something that you get paid back for. We have a soybean seed portfolio that we sell and what we don't sell is sold as grain at the end of the year, which also is transformed into cash with a lot of liquidity. So the quality of our debt in June is very good because it's very close to being cash. At the end of the day, it's very different from other industries when you look at their inventory levels. So this gives us a lot of comfort when we see our inventory and the scheduling for our clients. And here, we also see our cash flows -- excuse me, you can also see the liquidity for the 6 months of the year, the net financial result. So usually, again, the 6 month is the worst moment for the company. But despite that, our net financial result is still positive because of our holding. So when you look at this moving picture, not just a snapshot, but in June, we really are at a higher cash position than the company's total debt. That's why we have this positive net financial result. That's why I'm reinforcing that this is a snapshot from June that does not reflect the entire picture. When you look at the entire picture, you can see that our net debt is close to 0 at the end of the day. And cash flows, this is an area we'd like to go into. The market usually prefers to see cash flows than results. But you can see that we had important advances in this sense. Our inventory grew. Our production of raw materials grew by about 40% year-on-year. So our stocks went up 26%. Our inventory went up 26%, which makes a lot of sense considering the production growth that the company is seeing. And the advantages we see in managing our operation that I'd like to draw your attention to is customer advances, which are the orders that we've received in our portfolio where customers have paid us beforehand. We had a growth of over 200% on this factor. And this represents the solidity of our orders portfolio. These are orders that have already been paid. The company made a big effort in using its working capital even with this level of growth, and we were able to improve this. And at the end of the day, we had an operational flow 21% higher than in the second quarter of 2024. So growing by 40% and having a cash consumption that is lower than the second quarter of 2024 demonstrates very clearly how diligent the company is in optimizing its working capital. Of course, given the scenario where cash is more expensive, we have to be more diligent with our own capital. So we're able to provide these figures looking at the past, and this is here to stay. With high interest rates, we really cannot get this wrong. And that's why this is one of the main metrics that we analyze in the company. Well, those were our main points. So that concludes my presentation, and we can continue with the Q&A.

[Operator Instructions] The first question will be asked by Mr. Henrique Brustolin from Bradesco BBI.

We have two questions on our side. First, about your orders portfolio, and it's accelerated at this time. So what should we think about it versus your sales for the year? I'm asking this because when we look at your portfolio for Q2 from 2021 to 2023, your gross sales of the year were 42% or thereabouts above. Last year, of course, this was lower due to circumstances in the market. So my question is, looking at this year's figure, is there any reason for it to be more similar to last year or would it be more similar to 2021 to 2023, considering your traded volume, we have your total portfolio in financial volume, but maybe your physical volume is higher than that. So any input you would have on that will help us in understanding your sales for the year. My second question is about these advanced payments from customers. It's at a much better level than it was last year. So my question is when we look at this figure now, is your cash conversion cycle for the year likely to be better considering the sales you're making versus last year? So those are my two questions.

Henrique, thank you for that question. And thank you for being here with us. So the orders portfolio cannot be disclosed in price or amount due to commercial reasons. But what I can share with you is that when you compare anything to last year, it's going to be difficult because of the atypical weather issue that we had. It makes much more sense to look at the company's history. What I can say is that our entire production hasn't been sold. So we haven't sold all the seeds that we've grown. There's a lot more that can be sold potentially. And this is what we will do. And since growers and resellers are making decisions later on what they will buy, Barter is a little bit worse, so people are waiting, and there is more business to be done in the market. We still have an amount to sell, and we're making an effort to convert this into more new sales in the company as we historically have been doing. Advanced customers, yes, I do think that we've been making more advanced sales this year, and we were able to recover something that we had in the past when this was higher. So this helped us with our working capital in the company. But how it will happen from now on is that we have a portfolio. There are many payments that will take place in August and September, and some of it will be paid next year. So this is something that we are building. There's still a lot to be sold. And how much of it will be received now before shipping or close to shipping or only next year will depend. So a lot can still happen because there are new sales. And how is that going to go? But what is clear from the market is that we are getting pressured on working capital at the end of the day. So looking at the entire agribusiness industry, there seems to be a higher demand for capital. And it does not seem that this will cool down. We're not going to see any reductions. we haven't seen this in the industry. We're seeing actually higher demands because of this issue with working capital. So I don't think that our industry will be immune to that. So the demand for working capital will potentially be higher. Our production is going up 40%. If sales keep up with this level of production in absolute numbers, then obviously, there will be -- or there should be an increase. But in percentage terms, there could also be an increase in accounts receivable, looking at the entire industry. And I think that gives you an idea. But of course, this is still going to happen. I hope that answers your question. But we're limited in the information we can provide.

The next question will be asked by Mr. Pedro Fonseca from XP.

I have a follow-up question on something you've mentioned that I'd like to ask for more color on. First, CapEx. Both the first and second quarters had lower figures than we expected. And you mentioned that the company has been more diligent in its capital allocation. But my question is if this changes your growth plan in any way, if it affects your expectations to expand capacity. That's my first question. The second question is, I'd also like to get some more color, whatever you can say about your -- about the increase in PDD. I know that the company is being much more conservative, which makes sense. But what led to this increase? Was there any specific case or cases? And looking towards the future, what should we expect? You mentioned potential reversals, but will the company remain conservative, just so we can consider our projections for the rest of the year?

Pedro, thank you, and thank you for being here with the company and for your analysis. But our vision on CapEx is that this is a yearly decision. We discussed the budget with the Board at the -- and this is a discussion that we're still going to have on the level of growth that the company should expect for next year. We don't have that answer yet. We don't have a guidance for the market. We have had in the past, but currently, the company doesn't have any guidance for the market. And we're making a yearly assessment of our capital allocations. We understand that now we are at a much more comfortable harvest for the business because now we have several business units. And there's more competition on what's the best allocation for capital than when we had our IPO because then soybean seeds were the only option. Now we have more options. And that -- and then we decide how we allocate it best given the current scenario. The opportunity we saw, which exemplifies what we did, was to continue growing without investing into physical assets. So that's how we started our operation in the south of Brazil through leasing, which strengthens the company's strategy. What I can tell you in advance is that even though we have a low capital spread, at the end of the day, we think that our cost, which is 15% plus is too much for capital. So it was a no-brainer decision. We understand the opportunities we see in our industry, but we have to be very cautious. And we have been able to expand our production capacity. And with new efficiency levels, this will be even better. And again, we have a lot of brownfield in our company. Many of our units can grow quickly and with less capital since they are brownfield. So this is also an option. This is a decision that we can make quickly and with less allocated capital if that's how we decide to go. But we are as asset-light as we have ever been in our investments. So we really changed our PDD. We have a concentration in one specific case where we had about 30% or 40% and to give you more transparency in the market in order not -- for people not to think about negotiations and so on, we decided to make it very transparent. What has been paid or what hasn't been paid will be shown to you, and that gives you a lot of comfort at the end of the day so that we don't need to discuss what was renegotiated or what hasn't been. And what was expired is just a matter of looking at our accounts. So that gives you a lot of comfort and visibility. So in the next quarters, you'll see how our renegotiation went, and that will give you a better snapshot of what this allowance for doubtful accounts was even in such a stressful year.

The next question will be asked by Mr. Guilherme Palhares from Santander.

I apologize for my voice. Felipe, you've talked about how your portfolio is advancing, and we've seen many issues with credit in the industry in the last 2 years. So when you are composing this portfolio, thinking about the next season, what are you considering? Considering that we're still at a low commodity price, what would you do to reduce defaulting as we saw in other results this year? Also, I'd like to ask, well, you mentioned in your last results call that you have a higher volume, a higher acreage. So how much of this new volume includes new genetic technologies? If you can share anything about that with us.

Thank you for that question, Guilherme. Thank you for being with Boa Safra. So with our orders portfolio, so far, we believe that it's been healthier with this growth of over 200% in advance payments. So with this snapshot, we are showing a better order portfolio, which will improve our capital flow. But when you look at what is still to come and what we have already done in the past, let's consider this provision for doubtful accounts. This is 2%. It's very low. As a company, we have been getting prepared for this demand for capital, and we've been doing that for a long time. The company's IPO happened because we knew that our access to capital was essential. We knew that seeds were going to grow. We're going to gain more value that they would become -- they would get a higher share of the production cost because the technology is coming from the seed side. It's over 15% of the cost of inputs, and that would require working capital as fertilizers did in the past, fertilizers and pesticides. So our view in the company has been to get prepared for this growth in demand, which would expect -- would require working capital. Of course, to be honest, we didn't expect that working capital would have such a growing demand, but we saw that it was a sharper trend. When we had Fiagro and we sold our receivables portfolio, we also had a lot of cash in the company. That was right after the IPO, and we started testing this format of selling our receivables portfolio through a fund in companies starting an operation from scratch so that we could be prepared and create a prior history for the market. It was BRL 35 million at the time. We were the first in the industry who had a credit insurance. Even last year, we didn't sign any of our credit policy because we're building up a relationship and showing to the market that the risk profile and everything we're doing in the company is different from the average and we were able to prove that. So everything we've built puts us in a unique position. We're very prepared as a company. And if we need to increase our credit, we have the possibility of doing that. This is seen in our balance, a positive financial revenue where we historically have the worst cash position. So we have the ability of doing that. But of course, we will never let go of our own internal rules. We're not going to be less diligent because we have more liquidity, because we have a responsibility to our shareholders and our lenders. So we really have to be diligent. I've shown you how challenging that is, but I think we did this very well last year when the market was under a lot of stress. So we feel prepared as a company for this new year, but we cannot, in any way, believe that being less diligent is even a possibility because it is not. And we'll continue to be very strict because we've proven that by following our rules, that makes everyone happy. We provide credit, people pay us back, and we continue to be a strategic partner for all. So this is how -- this is what a healthy business looks like, and we want to continue to do what we're doing for our clients. And everything we created wasn't done overnight. With every year, this -- the company is becoming more solid, and we have more tools, we have insurance, and that gives us confidence at the end of the day. And I think it also demonstrates confidence to the market that we are managing credit risk, and the same will happen next year. Whatever the demand is, we will continue to perfect even further everything that we have access to. I hope that answers your question.

Yes, it does. And about the technology for your current season.

Okay. I can't tell you the exact number, but what I can say is that, yes, we're seeing robust growth in new technologies from what we've been seeing. We'll publish this at the end of the year, but there are many new varieties performing well, and this will be a relevant leap at the end of the year.

The next question will be asked by Mr. Gabriel Barra from Citibank.

I have a couple of questions. So first, Felipe, one of the biggest discussions we've been having is about the company's growth strategy. We've seen that you are trying to become more diverse and diversify your input distributors. We were also seeing the company going to -- directly to the grower. I don't know if you can talk about that, but if you can tell us a little bit about the company's long-term strategy. Are we correct in thinking that you're going to remain in B2B? Or is there a migration towards direct sales, especially considering the current financial circumstances in the industry? So if you can give us some more information, I think that would help us understand the company's future. Also, you mentioned that you have a lot of brownfield capacity. When you look at your CapEx, which is much lower than in previous years, this more robust investment cycle, especially in acquisitions has reduced. We see a lot of investment in working capital. There was a growth there, but I'd like to hear a little bit more about that. What should we consider in cash generation? You've reached a good figure. The harvest seems to be normal in comparison to last year. So what should we expect for the future?

Thank you, Gabriel. So our commercial strategy has not changed. It's B2B, that's our core as a company. So I don't think there's any other way of doing it. But we did realize that we had to have a more diverse base in order not to concentrate. And given the size of the company, we would need to access the entire B2B market. So we had to access a few players, and we understood that we needed more access to the market. That's why we have been expanding our base. And we saw that there was a high concentration in some players. So this market seems to have changed, and we need to keep up with the market considering the growth that the company has had. So I don't think that changes for us at the end of the day. We still have a lot of space to grow in the market, and that is our strategy, but we're also growing in other seeds. This category is broad. Other businesses represent 12%, but there's still a lot of room to grow. So we continue our strategy of growing in other seeds because they -- when they are consolidated, will represent a market as big as the soybean market. So that is a huge growth avenue in this business of other seeds. So we hope to do that more and more for our own clients. So we want to access more clients and have more penetration with them. So that doesn't change in the company's strategy. CapEx, as I said, we did not expect to really have such high demands for working capital as we've been seeing. So since working capital is inescapable, I mean, on the other hand, CapEx is. So we're trying to find new ways of doing things like we've done in the South of Brazil by renting and outsourcing our seed production. This is what we're doing. And we have some space for that, and that's why we've chosen that strategy. If we have the opportunity of getting financing below the cost of 15%, then we will consider brownfield expansion. But this is our own internal math, and that's how we decide what is worth it and what is more effective. So we prefer not to commit to anything because this is something that will be taken to the Board for a discussion as opportunities become clearer. It's hard to make a decision in advance because that means that you might miss some opportunities along the way. So it's important to look at the scenarios and that's what we do to approve our budget, but it's also important to have flexibility. With brownfield, we can also build quickly since it's already a brownfield. So that gives us a lot of flexibility. And then we're able to postpone that decision on how we will allocate our capital. I hope that answered your question. I didn't mean to be too detailed because there are some things that we cannot disclose yet, some of the things that we're still doing.

The next question will be asked by Mr. Thiago Duarte from BTG Pactual.

It's a pleasure to talk to you, Felipe. I just want to refer back to your orders and if you could give us some more details on where it currently stands in comparison to other normal years. I know that last year was an outlier. So considering client profile channel, we know what happened with some retailers. So the last 2 years were important adjustments for agribusiness. But I'd just like to know how this portfolio is right now, the kinds of clients and if that has any implications in your profitability. I'm not asking about the price and volume. I'm just thinking about the quality of this order portfolio.

Thiago, thank you for that question, and thank you for being with us. So obviously, excluding last year and looking at the company's history, I think that we are at a normal level. What changed in our portfolio? And this was a trend that we saw in the past. Now our portfolio is less concentrated. From what you've been seeing in this industry, you know that there has been a reduction in sales in some of our key accounts. So our portfolio now has -- is more polarized. There's less concentration at the end of the day. So with that, our understanding is that there's less risk and so it's higher quality. We also have much more advanced payment customers. So customers have paid for at least a part of what they order. That is also positive. Now we've talked about margins. So what big changes do we see there? Our profitability was affected significantly last year. And everything that we had projected for growth did not happen, and we just sold the same as we did the previous year. So margins were compressed comparing 2024 to 2023. This year, since the year is normal, and if we can really translate this into sales, the operational lever that we have will be the biggest driver so that we see higher profitability. So this is the issue. We have to translate our production into sales. Production has been confirmed, excuse me. We have the seeds, but now it needs to be translated into sales. And that's how we will dilute our costs much more. That includes fixed costs, SG&A and so on. And so depending on the price at the end of the day, which will be your average ticket for the year, I think that's the biggest driver in our recovery which is closer to our management at the end of the day, ensuring sales. We already have a robust portfolio, but there's still a lot to be sold. So I think that's the biggest factor so that we can recover our profitability.

That concludes the questions-and-answer session. We will now hand it over to Mr. Felipe Marques for his closing remarks.

First of all, I'd like to thank you for being here, investors and shareholders. Thank you for trusting Boa Safra even despite a difficult year for agriculture. You've demonstrated a lot of confidence in what we're doing and the results we are showing are due to the company's efforts throughout the entire company, of course. It was a difficult year. So we have a lot to celebrate. It was not easy to reach that capacity that we reached this year and manage our portfolio. So I'd like to thank our entire team at Boa Safra, our Board of Directors, that has remained with us even with the most difficult period. And of course, we are trying to make the decisions that make the most sense for the company long term without taking too many risks for short-term benefits, and that's our spirit at the end. There's still a lot to happen. The second half of the year is where we focus on sales. There's a lot to be done for the rest of the year. And we are as strong as we have ever been. We've created very solid basis in the company by diversifying our business and with all the tools that we have. So we feel very prepared for this year. And now it's all about executing so that the entire team at Boa Safra executes our strategy. The pillars have been built, the seeds have been planted, and it's up to us to execute the rest of the work very well. Thank you, and we will remain available if you have any further questions. You can contact our Investor Relations team, which is always available. Thank you for your trust, and have a great afternoon.

This concludes Boa Safra's earnings call. Thank you, and have a good afternoon. [Statements in English on this transcript were spoken by an interpreter present on the live call.]