Boku, Inc. (BOKU) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Well, good afternoon and welcome to the Boku Investor Webinar. This is being put on following the release of the company's 2022 results this morning. With me today, I've got Jon Prideaux, who's the CEO of Boku; and Keith Butcher, who's the CFO. Jon and Keith will take you through a presentation, which will be followed by a Q&A session. Given the number of attendees that we've got this evening, unfortunately, it's not possible to go to people individually, ask them to unmute and put their questions to Jon and Keith. But we really do encourage questions. [Operator Instructions] Okay, without further ado, I'll hand over to Jon and Keith to run you through the presentation. Jon?

Thanks, Tim, and hopefully everybody should now be able to see my screen. Just to reiterate what Tim said, I am Jon Prideaux, the CEO. And also on your screen, having a well-deserved coffee after a long day, is Keith Butcher, who is the CFO of Boku. Just to start the presentation, I think the best way of thinking of our results is to first of all, understand a little bit of the context. And the context has been that 2022 was a year in which there was a very strong U.S. dollar. And so that affected, to quite a considerable extent, our nominal results that Keith will run through shortly. And the figures I'm showing here are showing in constant currency, comparing our growth rates against the FX rates that applied in the prior year. And what you can see is that we were able in the course of the year to accelerate our revenue growth from 8% in the first half of the year to 21% in the second half of the year. And the reason for that is very clearly the execution of our strategy around new local payment methods. I'll have more of that to say, but traditionally, Boku has grown by allowing people to buy things and charge it to their phone bill. And we've expanded the range of payment methods that we support. And it's these new local payment methods, predominantly mobile wallets and real-time payments, that are helping us to grow. Those new local payment methods are growing incredibly fast, about 8 -- octupling during the course of the year and now are a material part of our revenue. In addition, we've had a year of record delivery, about 150 new launches with some of the biggest names in tech on the planet, ranging from the sort of Google through Netflix, Spotify, Apple, Meta. You can see the names here for yourself. About 1/3 of those launches are what we call LPM, or local payment methods, the new mobile wallets or account-to-account real-time payment systems. And a big chunk are also bundling programs, whereby one or other of these merchants will team up with a mobile network operator to distribute their service to the public. The growth in local payment methods is really exemplified by 2 key proof points, I think, that came to light in 2022. Firstly, it was the contract that we signed up with Amazon, which -- where they selected us in open competition against pretty much every other payment company on the planet, selected us. They weren't a direct carrier billing customer of ours, but they selected us just for the wallets and the account-to-account payment methods. And it's a deal which is being cemented with the right for Amazon to earn warrants based on the amount of revenue that they do with Boku. And the second sort of big piece of news that we had was the launch in China, originally with Alipay, but subsequently also with the second-largest wallet in China, WeChat Pay, with what we must euphemistically call a major existing customer operating in the console game space. So the launch in China, the signing up of Amazon, are 2 big pieces of news for Boku in 2022, and they reinforced that theme of faster growth, driven by new local payment methods, not just direct carrier billing. So with that by means of introduction, let me hand over to my colleague, Keith, who will take you through some of the numbers in a little bit more detail. Keith, the floor is yours.

Thanks, Jon. Yes, just a quick recap of the 2022 results. As Jon said, we had a challenging year because we report in U.S. dollars, and actually -- but the vast majority of our revenues are not in U.S. dollars, well over 90% of our revenues are not in U.S. dollars. And so that sort of actually masks the true underlying performance of the business, which was actually very strong. So revenues were up to $63.8 million. Had we done that on a constant currency basis, in other words, the exchange rates were the same as the previous year, then actually, we grew at 14%, which is very encouraging. And as Jon said previously, if you look at the second bullet, that we grew at 21% in the second half. So we had accelerating growth in H2. And that bodes very well for 2023, the current year, because, if you like, the exit run rate from 2022 sets you up for the sort of starting run rate for the 2023 and the fact we finished the year very strongly was very encouraging. Just to talk again about the currency impact, as I say, most of our revenues are not in U.S. dollars, although we are a U.S. company and we report in U.S. dollars and we service the world's largest merchants, Apple, [ Samsung ], Spotify, Netflix, Amazon, Google, those kind of major merchants. So we're -- most of what we do for them is actually connecting them to payment types in places like Asia. And in fact, the biggest exposure we have are places like Japan and Korea, where we had a lot of revenue, which -- where the dollar strengthened and so our dollar revenues were actually -- were lower. Same with euros and GBP. In fact, the dollar strengthened against virtually every currency. So we did well in local currency. When you converted it back into U.S. dollars, it didn't look so good. Of course, ironically, this year, the reverse is happening. So we enter 2023 with the dollar weakening. In fact, we're seeing some currency tailwinds. So I think looking through the core metrics to the underlying performance, 14% is the true growth of the business. That flows through into our EBITDA. We made $20.5 million of EBITDA. That's about 32% EBITDA margin. In other words, about 32% of our revenue converted into EBITDA. Despite those FX headwinds -- and perhaps more importantly, we have been building out under the covers for the last 2 years, 2.5 years, investment into our mobile-first network to allow us to offer these local payment types globally. So moving away from our core carrier billing business into offering these new local payment types. And the clear validation of that strategy was Amazon signing a multiple-year contract with us at the end of last year. So that investment we've been making, but that investment is beginning to slow, and I'll come on to that, because we've made most of the investment. Cash balances in the year-end were very strong. $116.5 million, up from $67.5 million in -- at the half year. We don't have any debt. I mean some of that cash is cash in transit. So we receive cash from our carriers or wallets and pass it on to our merchants. But if you strip that away, about $50 million of that cash is Boku's own cash. We have got about $5.6 million still to come from the sale of our Identity business. For those of you who don't know, we sold out our Identity business in February for just over $32 million. We received 26-point something and we've got $5.6 million still to come at the end of August. And the business is underlyingly cash generative. So what do we use all that cash for? Well, we started to buy back, on a limited basis, some of our own shares. We issue RSUs, that's sort of shares, if you like, to all of our staff. They have to earn them over a 3-year period. And we have about 3.2 million of those shares sort of being earned around about now, at the end of the results. And so what we did was we bought 3.2 million of our own shares into treasury. And so when we give those to staff, you'll find that the number of shares is not diluted by those awards to staff. So I think a strong year. Let's look on the next slide at the underlying metrics that drive our business. And it's just worth reminding everybody, the ultimate driver of our business is that we have -- is the number of users that transact through Boku and kind of how much they spend. So if you look at the sort of metrics on here, monthly active users up 28% to 52.3 million. And if you actually measure our active users on a sort of annualized basis or anybody who transacted in the last year, it will be something like 110 million users. We have a huge number of users using the Boku platform. Those new users spend money. And our TPV, the total payment volume processed through our platform last year was $8.9 billion. On a constant currency basis, that's up 20%. So these things drive our fundamentals and that's why we wanted to look through the currency effect. If you're growing your users by 28% and your volumes by 20%, we take a percentage of that value, on average 0.73%. You can see there in the fourth bullet, which is our take rate. So you multiply that by the $8.9 billion, you get our revenues. So these are the ultimate drivers, and as you can see, they're very healthy. Users are up and TPV up. A key point to make is these newer payment types, we call them LPMs, local payment methods, you'll see in about the fifth bullet, the take rate on those is generally higher. All of the contracts we signed with the major merchants have been significantly higher than the 73 basis points, the 0.73% I talked about. So probably around about the 1% mark. So we -- over time, as these local payment methods grow, we will see our average take rate go up. The network is now substantially reaches over 7.3 (sic) [ 7.3 billion ] end-user accounts. That's individual accounts rather than people, because some people have more than one. But I guess the key point is the last one, the investment phase that we've been making. We've built an entirely new business offering sort of under the covers over the last 2.5 years. And we've done that while still maintaining high EBITDA margins. And that is really coming to an end. We're hiring the last few people we need to sort of complete this rollout. And then as we look forward, the number of heads in the business, which is the main driver of our cost, will start to flatten. And we think the operational gearing that we've seen in the business before will start to come through again as we don't need to keep adding heads and people and additional costs. So just quickly looking to the next slide, on to the newer payment types. This is obviously the -- where we see the bulk of our growth coming from. So carrier billing is the bulk of our revenue so far. But as we look forward and look to try and double the business over the next 4 or 5 years, the local payment methods, we think, will be the vast majority of that growth. Those local payment methods have been very successful in the last 12 months. So if you look at the right-hand bar, you can see that we're -- the monthly active users -- sorry, the increase in volume is 8x what it was a year earlier. So we're seeing an exponential growth in the users, how much they spend. So monthly active users up from 1.1 million in December '21 to 3.8 million. So all of these things are growing very fast. And on average, the average user of a local payment method of wallets and real-time payments, account-to-account, spend about twice as much as a user using carrier billing. So all of these things are going in our favor. So I think that sets us up for a very strong 2023 and over the next few years, this is the primary driver of our growth. Now let me just hand back to Jon, who can sort of walk you through that strategy.

Thank you, Keith. So just to provide a bit more context of the strategy. If you went back 10 years or more to 2010, about 3/4 of everything that was bought online was paid for with a Visa or Mastercard. I mean back then in 2010, the Internet was perhaps more Western in its totality. But if you roll the tape forward by 10 years to 2020, you'll find that gradually, there's been quite a big shift. I mean part of what's shifted is the sort of people buying things online are coming from different places. But partly what's happened is being, despite the growth in absolute volumes of Visa and Mastercard, the proportion of total Internet sales that is accounted for by those products has reduced from that 3/4 in 2010, down to only about 1/3. And that's quite a dramatic change. Now most of the difference between the 2 is accounted for by various local payment methods. And it's quite hard to see the impact of each individual local payment method, because it is an extraordinarily fragmented ecosystem. Individually, each of these local payment methods is pretty small. I mean there are a few big ones that you may have heard of, like Alipay or WeChat Pay in China, but most are relatively small, operating in 1 country: Rabbit LINE Pay in Thailand, OVO in Indonesia, Tigo in Nigeria, relatively small local payment methods that have grown up to meet the needs of local merchants. Now the problem for global companies now is that if they want to sell their products in multiple countries around the world, they can't just take Visa and Mastercard. I mean in the old days, when 3/4 of all the payments were Visa and Mastercard, you connected yourself up to a PSP, maybe you accepted Amex and PayPal as well, and then you were done. But that isn't really going to cut it anymore, particularly if you want to sell into the markets of Asia, the Middle East or indeed Africa, where there is an emergent middle class clamoring to buy some of the products that their counterparts in the West have been consuming for some time. This is really where Boku comes in and where our advantage over the proposition of card processors really comes to bear. Because most of the card processors you may have heard of, the Stripes, the Adyens, the Worldpays of this world, they are broadly defined as card processors. Now some of them might do local payment methods on the side, but they're not specialists. Card processors exist in an environment where Visa and Mastercard are telling them what the standards are and are doing a lot of the heavy lifting of integrating, in Visa's and Mastercard's case, there are tens of thousands of different banks around the world, ensuring that they comply to common standards and specifications and Visa and Mastercard will look after the settlement for you, will provide you with a single sort of report, so that all of your Visa transactions are routed back to you in a single connection. And you effectively as a card processor need to plug into a Visa acquirer or a Mastercard acquirer, and you might support several of those, but it's all done using standard specifications and connections. Well, try to replicate that in this diverse ecosystem of hundreds of different local payment methods, be they mobile network operators or increasingly, mobile wallets or account-to-account-based real-time payments. Well there, there isn't any technical standard. Each one is different. They don't even work the same. I mean the user interface might be slightly different. The settlement is likely to be local, in a local currency, which the merchant doesn't want. And as for reporting, it will come at you in all different ways and formats. So the job that Boku does is simplify that fragmented, differentiated ecosystem. And by standardizing it, we are able to provide back to the merchant the same sort of simplicity that the card processors are able to do, leaning on the role made by Visa and Mastercard. And as it turns out, we are able to put in place custom connections to each of these different carriers or mobile wallets or account-to-account-based payment systems. And those customized connections happen to work better than people just trying to lasso them together coming from the card processing ecosystem. We've had some testimonials from our merchants where they say when they switch their connections from a major competitor, and I don't want to be specific here, but companies like Adyen and Worldpay, they switched a connection that had previously been done through one of those bigger payment processors, and they switch it to Boku, and in some cases, you can see a pretty dramatic increase in the level of usage. This is often because Boku is able to provide some really useful functionality, for example, being able to do a one-tap transaction. These are things that local payment methods don't necessarily support as standard. But Boku will develop a bespoke technology that allows you to register the wallet is the way in which you want to pay. And then subsequent payments would just take place with a one-tap or a one-click. And that obviously leads to higher sales for our merchants and not just a little amount either. If you'd optimize a particular connection with a big wallet in a big country, it's tens of millions of dollars of extra sales for that merchant. Really worth coming over to Boku for. And that's the kind of higher-quality connection that we're able to deliver for our customers. And given the basic changes that we are seeing in the ecosystem with more of the global e-commerce taking place using these local payment methods, you can see that major brands like Apple and Netflix are using those new local payment methods as a way to acquire more users. And I've also put on this slide a number of examples of other local payments that are being supported by brands like Spotify, or Sony PlayStation or Meta, in particular, for their advertising. All of these are Boku customers. And the brands that you see here are also brands that we support in terms of not just carrier billing, but these new mobile wallets and local account-to-account or real-time payment systems. So it's really something which is starting to be adopted at some speed by global merchants. I don't want to dwell too much on the -- Amazon and China, but these clearly are major developments for us. The first launch of Amazon is not featured in the results that we present to you today. The first launch will take place within the coming days. It would have been nice if we had it done by the time of our results, but we still expect to get the first launch of the first wallet with the production transactions before the end of this month. But the plan is to launch with 12 wallets in 5 countries. As it turns out, I think we may be able to do more than that. We are, as it says here, looking to expand both in terms of the number of wallets that we'll be operating with and indeed, the business units that we operate with through Amazon Prime Video. And one of the things you may have seen on the RNS that we issued when we announced the deal was that this is a genuine partnership. The more revenue that Amazon does with Boku, then the greater the number of warrants that they will be able to earn over Boku shares. In general, that adds up to just over sort of 3% or so of Boku's issued share capital, but the amount of revenue that Amazon will have to generate in order to be able to earn up to that level is transformational, a multiple, cumulatively, of our current revenues. So if that hasn't -- that's for the future and something that we expect to start processing in the coming days. What is not in the future, but is very much in the present, is the launch by Boku of mobile wallets in China. Previously, we've been able to disclose that, should we say, a major existing customer working as a gaming console provider, launched in China in September of last year. Well, since then, we've supplemented the Alipay connection also with WeChat Pay, which is the second-largest wallet in the world and in China, and the initial performance has been encouraging. The volume increases have somewhat, frankly, exceeded our expectations. So we're very pleased with the initial contribution made. And it's the nature of our business that the volumes tend to compound the longer a connection has been in place, as new users discover it, register through Boku, Alipay or WeChat Pay as being their payment method and then obviously, use that for future purchases. So we're now in a happy position that most of our large customers are not just using Boku for direct carrier billing, although we're very happy with that. And that has been supplemented by the fact that the new local payment methods, the mobile wallets and the account-to-account-based real-time payment systems, are now being taken by 5 of our major customers. And we would hope during the course of this year, to color a few or maybe 1 or 2 of those squares that are currently white, we would hope to color those green in the course of this year. We're making quite a strategy of focusing our efforts in on these global merchants. And the value that is being felt by the Netflixes and Spotifys and Metas and Sonys of this world, we hope will also be felt by others of the merchants listed on this chart. Just to sort of wrap up, how else do we grow? I mean part of the way in which we grow, obviously, is by taking our existing customers and going wider. Having those merchants who are using us in 1 or 2 countries or 10 or 12 countries, to use us in even more of those countries. The way to read this chart is that each of the gray squares represents a payment connection within our payment network. And as you can see, there's quite a lot of room for growth. Now I don't imagine that any of these merchants will ever use all of the connections within our payment network, but one of the ways in which we build in growth for the future is by taking our existing customers and launching new payment connections for them. And in the course of 2022, we launched over -- well, we launched about 150 of those such connections, both for these merchants and indeed for others within our portfolio. And you can see there, Amazon really yet to start, not live at all in 2022. But I think it's also important to talk about another way in which we are able to grow our business, even with our existing customers. And if we just take Amazon, for example, on the far right of this chart, I mean the initial announcement that we made relates to Amazon Prime Video. But I talked a lot about transformative levels of revenue that we expect to get out of the deal, which is anticipated, if Amazon is going to earn all the warrants that they could earn. But this won't be achieved just by working with Amazon Prime Video. It will need to expand. We will need to expand our relationship with Amazon to include other digital properties like Twitch or Audible or Kindle. And indeed, perhaps the major parts of that volume will come when we expand into bigger categories like Amazon Web Services or indeed, Amazon's advertising business and ultimately, indeed, to the e-commerce store. And you can see in a number of the other merchants that we have listed here, that we operate our business across multiple business lines. I mean another one that I would perhaps like to talk about, Facebook, was a long-standing customer of Boku of more than a decade. But in the course of -- well, the very end of 2021, but mostly through 2022, we were able to roll out with Meta, connections to many different local payment methods. And these weren't used for people to play games on Facebook, which accounts for only about 1% of Meta's overall revenue. This was Meta's ads business, which is about 99% of their revenue, and we've started to get involved where you want to prepay adverts, you can now do that in a whole series of different countries using Boku-connected payment methods. So really helping us to grow. So just to wrap up, we're pleased with our progress that we made in 2022. We think it validates our strategy. And it's really becoming clear that Boku is heading for a period of sustained higher growth than we've had in previous periods as we move from a direct carrier billing business, which is growing in the sort of mid- to high single digits, to a local payment method business based on wallets and account-to-account-based real-time payments, which are growing at triple-digit rates at the moment. If you look at the release that we sent out this morning, looking at our results, we did say that our exit run rate was such that about 7% of our users were coming from these newer payment methods, but more than double that in terms of revenue. And that's the bit that's growing fast. The thing that is driving our revenue growth increasingly is the new local payment methods. And that is happening as a result of new launches like Amazon. It's about taking new customers into new geographies, like the launches I described in China. And it's also helped by the fact that the price that we're able to extract for these new local payment methods is, in fact, higher than the price that we were able to extract for local -- for direct carrier billing. And the reason for that, as Keith explained, is that because the local payment methods are ones where we move the money as well as just making the technical connection, we can charge a higher price because we're providing a more comprehensive service. Finally, and we did expand on this a little bit in our recent Capital Markets Day, because we have now built the technology to support these newer payment methods like mobile wallets and that investment includes in payment licenses in a number of different countries around the world and the compliance and other staff required to support those payment licenses. As that investment phase comes to an end, the natural operating -- operational gearing implicit in our model with more than 90% gross margins will tend to return. And so whereas we've had relatively flat EBITDA for the last couple of years, that should start to expand this year and will continue to grow as a greater proportion of our revenue, fall through to EBITDA and ultimately to profits. So that concludes the formal remarks or presentation that I wanted to give. And now I would be more than happy to answer your questions, as would Keith. And if you could sort of direct those through the chat function to Tim, I'm sure he will be happy to moderate them for you. Thank you.

Well, thank you very much, Jon, thank you very much, Keith, for a very comprehensive presentation. We've only got a limited number of questions so far, but there is time for more if anybody has got any. So please do type those in. But I think the presentation must have been pretty comprehensive, because we haven't lost an attendee during the course of it. So it's always a good sign. But I do have a few questions. The first one: You talked about -- a lot about account-to-account and real-time payments being popular in Asia Pacific, the Middle East and Africa and Latin America. But do you see these account-to-account and real-time payment transactions displacing card use in more mature markets, such as the EU and U.S. over time?

I think there's a very real chance they will. And just perhaps to people who don't -- aren't that familiar with account-to-account or real-time payments, in the U.K., a product that you would use there would be so-called faster payments, where you're able to make payments directly out of your app. But if you go to some other countries, you can find that you can receive a push from a merchant, which you click on and then directly make the payment out of your app, the so-called sort of push-to-pay model. And that's very popular in countries like India and Brazil. It's really occupying the space that was previously occupied by cards. And merchants really do prefer the speed of payment, the fact that there's no chargebacks associated with it and frankly, the lower cost associated with these account-to-account, real-time-based payments. So there's a very real chance of them displacing at least some of the incumbent card advantage in Europe and the U.S. In Europe, you can see open banking plans starting to come to the fore. And you can start to see in the U.S., products like FedNow also coming to the market and merchants really seeking to see them used in places where cards were used previously. And we do have quite a pipeline for it. If anyone had been able to dial into our most recent Capital Markets Day, one of the speakers was from Netflix, and the Head of Payments at Netflix mentioned that there were something like 6 new payment methods they were looking to launch with Boku after the ones that they already had in the market. Those 6 were European account-to-account-based payment schemes. Now clearly, people get used to paying in a certain way. So I don't imagine that cards will be displaced overnight. But the question asked is if I think it could displace cards? And I really do think it could. The question is, is how much and how quickly? But we are very bullish about the prospects for this new type of payment method and think that it will drive our growth, perhaps not so much in '23, '24, but in the '25, '26 period is when we think that would happen. So hopefully, not too long an answer for you, but I suppose the basic answer is yes.

Thank you, Jon. Thank you. The next question might be a little bit more difficult to answer. The question asks: If you look at some of your markets, particularly in the Far East, you've obviously got the ability to offer the merchant multiple payment options going through the Boku platform now. Can you give any sort of generalizations over what sort of proportion of their online revenue you would be looking at there? Is it 50%? Is it 1% in some of these markets where particularly wallets are the predominant use of payment methodology?

Well, I mean I think as the question I think implies, it does rather depend on the type of payment method, what share of checkout we have. Carrier billing would tend to be, should we say something in the region of 15% share of checkout. If you use wallets, then it can easily be 50%, 60%, 70% share of checkout in that particular market. So it rather depends on how popular a payment method it is. And we've been prioritizing popular payment methods for fairly obvious reasons. And yes, so absolutely, we can do a material proportion in a particular market if we get the right payment method.

Okay. And talking about payment methods, the questioner here asks: Are local payment methods lower cost to the consumer? My understanding is that the cost to the consumer is the same, whatever payment method they choose, and the cost is borne by the merchant. Is that correct?

That is correct. I mean there are some countries where it is legal to surcharge, dependent on the type of payment method. That's not done very often. Although having said that, you could find examples of Amazon, for example, surcharging the use of credit cards in countries like Australia or Singapore. So it does happen and the merchant will steer people towards payment methods that are cheaper. And just coming back to the LPMs, it's because the cost of payment to the merchant is either the same as cards or cheaper, as in the case of account-to-account, they are not the things that would be surcharged. Typically, as you say, the consumer pays the same price irrespective of the different payment methods that are offered to him or her.

Thank you. Keith, one for you. The questioner asks: How does the currency mix of your operating costs match your revenues? You've obviously talked a lot about the strength of the U.S. dollar, but what about operating costs?

Yes. Good question. And the answer is it depends, really. A lot of our revenues coming out of Asia, where we have relatively small infrastructure in terms of total costs, so big markets for us like Japan and Korea, we have very little offsetting costs. Other bigger markets in terms of currencies, GBP and euro, we have an almost 100% hedge, if you like, in terms of the costs and revenues sort of broadly matching each other. So we have quite a lot of people in Europe and quite a lot of people in London. So from a revenue perspective, when the U.S. dollar strengthens, that -- they all affected our revenue. But from an EBITDA point of view, the JPY and the Korea one sort of affected it much more than the European and GBP revenues, because we have a sort of built-in natural hedge.

Thank you. Well, that brings us -- we've got -- just got one more. A questioner asks and again, it's one for Keith: Can you just talk a little bit more about the share buyback program, what it's been used for?

Yes, it's very simple. I mean we have got surplus cash or lots of cash in our balance sheet. As I explained before, perhaps it looks a little bit flattering because quite a lot of it is still cash that is in transit onto our merchants. But nevertheless, we embarked on this sort of limited share buyback program, which we announced about a year ago. Really, the idea was that we award shares, RSUs we call them, to employees annually. They have to be in the company 3 years later to receive them. As those vest, obviously, that adds additional shares into the mix and somewhat dilutes existing shareholders. This year is about 3.2 million. And so what we did was we bought in the market, over the last sort of 6 months, about the same 3.2 million shares. In fact, at a slightly lower price than the current share price, but about $5 million we spent to buy those 3.2 million shares. And the idea is those go into treasury and then right now, the vesting period is from the end of our financial year when the results were announced. So those 3.2 million shares will be -- are now issued to staff. And -- but it won't dilute shareholders because we've already essentially bought those back ourselves. So that's really the idea. The plan is to do that every year. We have got sufficient cash to do that. We are -- we will likely do something similar with the Amazon warrants. So as and when, Amazon have to earn them. So they don't get any warrants unless they spend money with us. As they do that, we will hopefully buy enough shares in the market to satisfy those as well. So again, you won't find those diluting our overall share count.

Excellent. Thank you. Well, I think that's a nice positive note to finish on. That's the end of the questions. I'd just like to thank Jon and Keith for the presentation. But most of all, thank everybody for joining us this evening. If you do have any further questions, please don't hesitate to get in touch, [email protected], which is on all of the announcements, is the best way, and we'll endeavor to answer anything you've got. So thank you very much, and enjoy the rest of your evening.

Thank you.

Thank you.