Braemar Plc (BMS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Just in case you don't know everyone who's here. First of all, I'm James Gundy, CEO; Tristram, the COO; and Grant Foley of the FD. Welcome to our final results for year ending '24. I think I can safely say I'm a little bit proud compared to where we were the last 2 years. We've had obviously issues with the accounts, and I want to personally thank Grant for helping us hugely here to get those accounts over the line and even a week earlier than we anticipated a few months ago. So thanks for that, Grant. And notice all the financial team in the back of that as well. So thanks for that. So I think today, we want to get through, explain everyone where we are today and where we're going forward. That's the most important thing, and our strategy, which is important, which I think we can safely say is delivering, from what I said when I first came in January '21. And I think I'm happy about that, and it's showing exactly where we are. Here, the first section here, is that you can see we're pretty in line with where we were last year. And last year, we had some tailwinds with the FX, and we had a dry cargo market. It was some 30% higher than it was in the following year. So we're very, very pleased on that situation. Underlying profit, again, that obviously proves that, that same sort of situation, we definitely -- I feel because from last year coming in at GBP 20 million, it's obviously hard again to repeat similar numbers from where we were 2 years ago, which was GBP 89 million. So as far as I'm concerned, we've maintained that we're in line with expectations. So very happy with that. As far as the net cash, yes, it's slightly -- it's down from where it was a year ago. You have to remember, we've obviously been investing in the business with 2 acquisitions from last year is coming to the accounts. And obviously, once again, the same situation with the FX swing there as well. So growth as far as we -- I mean, for those who don't necessarily understand transactions and chartering side, we call fixtures, just to make sure you understand that. And as you can see, with the acquisitions, we've increased fixtures by some 8%. And just to explain on the chartering side, there is obviously, as a revenue -- as the rates increase, number of transactions increasing, obviously, revenue increase as a business. The forward order book, another key indicator. As you'll see down the line, that's gone from GBP 56 million to GBP 82.6 million. Now that obviously, that's important for us when we're obviously budgeting for the future markets. And that in fact, goes out some, I think, to 2030 -- 2039. So there's obviously forward income coming up. And we have said progressive dividends all the way through. And I think you can see that, that's happened there. Thanks, Grant. Now the business is broken down to 3 sections. And what is important here is to understand that those 3 sections interact. I mean there's a lot of cross-fertilization within the business. So just explain before I go through it. We have the chartering team that talks to the new building side, the secondhand team. And obviously, we have the -- we actually can offset that the risk -- on the risk as well. So let me explain even clearer. So we can contract to ship a new building, okay? We can use finance. We can have finance team to help us contract that new building. Then we can fix that ship for a long-term deal, maybe 5, 10 years. And at the same time, whether that be a Shell or one of the big trading house, they can offset that risk and manage that risk through our security business. So basically, we are a one-stop shop, and we had those desks around the globe. So we've really built that business model that we can basically bring those A-Star clients to come in and say, do the whole shipping for them, so to say, right? Okay. So the chartering team is our main sector, which is, as you can see there, where it's GBP 104 million, up from GBP 99 million. The investment advisory, which will become the new building, secondhand valuations offshore and the recycling, which is the end of the life of the business. You can see the figures there. And our risk -- now this is obviously a business that I wanted to build some in 2018, from when we went into secure inventory Atlantic. As far as the coal side there was, we built that business up and we've continued to build that. But I'll let Tris explain further as we go along. Thanks, Grant. Now if you look in the whole model for the last 10 years from when, me being an ACM, we were acquired by Braemar and we've built the business from there. When we came in as a ship broking business, you can see how we've grown the business from GBP 41 million revenue, to where we are now to GBP 153 million. And throughout that, as I said, acquired -- we acquired Atlantic ship broker is a clear vision to grow the security side. And when I came in back in 2021 after futile battles there, I came in a clear vision to simplify the business, remove those businesses I didn't feel necessary complemented ship broking, whereas I think that is explained to you a minute ago, the business now is totally complementing each other from what we're doing. So we made that. We came with a clear vision, simplify the business, focus on ship broking. We've done that. We've done further acquisitions within the business, that have total -- what I can say to you now that they have been enhanced. They've enhanced their own earnings from being part of the larger group. And the other thing to make sure you realize is the fact that ship broking is definitely not necessarily regulated, but moving towards that. And that's why the consolidation story is a big thing for us, because the smaller shops are finding it more difficult to have the compliance teams, the KOI teams, internal legal teams, which the clients are basically asking for. So for them, it's easy to fall in, drop in, to the bigger shops and allow that platform really to be there. So there's that. And obviously, from 2024 going forward. Look, we've said what we've said. For us, it's very proud that we've basically come in again in line with the revenue numbers than we were a year ago. We've grown the business and obviously from where I'm sitting, and Tristram explains as well later on, we've built a platform that we can definitely now build upon, and that's obviously the intention for me. Go ahead. So we've basically just talked about the strategy. Obviously, M&A is obviously a part of our story. Obviously, we'll be careful what we go into. We want as much to complement our present business, if we can. Hiring new talent. We're also attracting new talent because of where we are and the scale of the business. And of course, there's obviously a clear vision of growing the business from internal for the graduate scheme, et cetera, which have been further as well. The positive market drivers for us as far as efficacy, being in the business for the past 40 years, I can honestly sit here and say that -- or stand here and say that, I don't think I've ever seen a market with a clear vision the next 4, 5 years going forward, for all shipping markets becoming aligned. So many reasons for that. I'll explain later on down in the presentation. But it feels very, very positive compared to -- even compared to in 2008. That felt toppy to a certain extent when it got today. I felt like it was going to come off. Now it just feels like everything is going in the right direction. The scale, obviously, with some 16 offices around the globe, some 45, 50 desks, which we -- so we're growing the business everywhere, and we feel we can attract more for that reason. And the dividend, I said that already with progressive dividend policy, and it's up from 3% in the prior year. Okay. Right. Tris, over to you, buddy.

Thanks, James. So we've talked a lot in the past about ways that we can grow our business, which is three on there. But the proof is in our ability to deliver that. In FY '22, '23, we delivered 30 new brokers with completely new revenue streams. This has brought an additional $30 million in revenue in the last financial year. All continue to grow within Braemar, with the benefit of being a much wider network and certainly, based on where their revenues were before and where they are now within the Braemar network, they've seen a substantial increase in the sales. We're always looking for new areas to expand into, but continue to do so in a measured manner. We will not do deals for the sake of doing deals or adding broker numbers. All of our potential growth must be accretive to the bottom line and enhance our offering. So just moving on to the next growth opportunities. I think many of you will be familiar with this slide, which we've used in the past to show both geographical and new product opportunities. Just talking about some of the transactions that we've done and how they're working within the business again. If we look at the addition of Southport, that gave us a much needed foothold in the Americas, which we have every intention of growing that into more products with the support of the team locally that are running that business. Likewise, Madrid shipping advisers gave us key access to European customers that we weren't speaking to. And with that, just aside from tankers, we're definitely seeing a requirement from those clients to look at the full spectrum of products that are traded within Braemar, not just Angus. I think further key lights of what's happening in the last 6 to 12 months, we've opened an office in South Korea. This is a much needed extension to our Asia Pacific offering. We're definitely having a lot of our S&P and newbuild team spending more time in Korea, and due to the activity of the yards there, we expect to see more business, not only for newbuild and S&P, but also Corporate Finance, as James touched on that earlier in supplying the whole package. We talk a lot in all of this presentation about securities and how this has been a key focus for us. I think moving forward, again, looking at ourselves as a consolidator and where the future of our business needs to be. We very much feel that we want to expand our presence in securities in doing that. We will be looking to trade as an agency broker that is not taking any positions. More financial instruments. Very much needing to do that. We need to extend our licenses with the regulators. We have 2 licenses applications in process at the moment, one for U.K. OTF and one for European OTF. If you're not familiar with what OTFs are, they are multinational systems that allow various parties to interact and buy and sell financial instruments that are not traded on exchange. That will enable our existing brokers to potentially trade more products that their existing clients are asking for access to. But as I said, again, this will be just operating as an agency business. So commissions only. We're not taking any positions. Can we move on to the next one? So touching on our people, our increase in headcount is not only brokers. Again, we want to ensure that we have the best resources to support our front office and an environment where there is technological-driven change, increased regulatory oversight and an industry that's going through much change, it's essential that we've invested in this cycle, which we're doing that. People are our business, and we must ensure that not only our clients receive the best service, but our team want to be long-serving colleagues. We want to offer clear career progression and to always be competitive in how we reward our employees. Our current employees own over 20% of the share capital in our business, with most choosing to maintain and build their equity stake, which we see that as a positive. As a management team, we understand the need to facilitate clear parts of succession and empower all of our colleagues to use their initiative and help all reach their full potential. Thank you. Grant?

Thank you. So I'll just talk about financial performance, and if we start with the income statement. So revenue for the year, GBP 152.8 million, was in line with the prior year. We saw a strong performance in the recent acquisitions that we made at the end of 2022. And the securities business continue to perform strongly, and that offsets weaker dry cargo revenues, which was rates-driven as well as lower activity in our Investment Advisory segment. Operating expenses at GBP 134 million were up slightly on the prior year with lower staff costs being offset by a foreign exchange swing. So underlying operating profit before acquisition-related expenditure was GBP 18.1 million, which is in line with market expectations. The acquisition-related costs related to the acquisition of the Madrid tanker desk. Reported underlying profit at GBP 16.5 million was 18% lower than the prior year, due to the increased operating costs and the acquisition-related expenditure. Statutory profit of GBP 7.5 million before tax was GBP 2 million lower than the previous year as a result of the lower operating profit, and we had lower specific charges in this current financial year. Underlying earnings per share at 36.22p was 21% lower than the prior year. And total dividends for the year of 13p, an increase of 8% and in line with our progressive dividend policy. If we look at the revenue mix now, you can see that the group has delivered a balanced and diversified mix of revenues by segment and region. If we start on the left, you can see that tankers performed very strongly, driven by the acquisitions that were made, offsetting weaker dry cargo revenues. Securities, I've mentioned, continues to grow and is an increasing percentage of overall group revenues, contributing 15% in FY '24. On the right, looking at the split by region, you can see that the contribution there from the U.S.A. has grown significantly due to the acquisition of Airport Maritime, whilst Asia Pacific has fallen as a result of lower dry cargo revenues, which are more in that region. U.K. has remained steady at 53%. Importantly, despite the mixed market conditions, we can see that there is increasing resilience coming through across the business, and that's sustaining our revenues year-on-year. Looking at chartering, overall, revenues grew by GBP 5 million to GBP 104 million, with tankers specialized in offshore, all growing and offsetting lower dry cargo revenues, where we saw rates drop by around 35%. In Investment Advisory, fewer sale and purchase transactions and corporate finance activity reduced revenues in that segment by GBP 11 million to GBP 26 million. But as you all know, revenues in that particular segment can be naturally more lumpy year-on-year. And we start FY '25 with a very strong forward order book for sale and purchase at $41.5 million, which is a $24 million increase from a year earlier. The decrease in investment advisory was offset by growing securities business, which was up 36% to GBP 23 million. If we look at chartering now in a little bit more detail, we can see that in '23, revenues were GBP 99 million. And in FY '24, we managed to increase the number of fixtures driven by the acquisitions that we made, and that increased our revenues by GBP 11 million. This was offset by lower rates, reducing revenues by GBP 6 million. Within this, the main driver was dry cargo. The dry cargo rates, I've mentioned being circa 35% down year-on-year, actually, were a GBP 12 million reduction, that was then offset by more positive rate movements, particularly in specialized tankers and offshore. Just moving on to operating expenses. Overall 1% higher than the prior year at GBP 134 million. Overall staff costs were GBP 2.8 million lower with lower bonuses, partially offset by the increased headcount costs that Tris had mentioned. The increased headcount drove higher travel and entertainment costs, whilst IT and property costs also increased due to our ongoing investment and increased size of the group. And in addition, we had a positive foreign exchange translation gain last year of GBP 1.5 million, and it was a GBP 1.1 million loss this year. So that was a GBP 2.6 million swing to take us to GBP 134 million this year. Moving on to liquidity. The group continued to maintain a positive net cash balance. At GBP 1 million, this was lower than the GBP 6.9 million that we reported a year earlier due to a number of movements, including the investigation costs, which was -- and other items, which were GBP 3 million. Some payment of some tax on account, which was GBP 1.5 million, and the payment of some bonuses before the year-end, which was a further GBP 2 million. In addition, the group's GBP 30 million revolving credit facility -- to the GBP 30 million revolving credit facility, the group has a GBP 10 million accordion and continues to have significant headroom against these covenant requirements. So finally, on KPIs. As I said, revenue unchanged from the prior year, although the mix is very, very different, demonstrating the increased resilience that we've built in the business. Revenue per head, and this is total heads. This is average headcount. So that includes everyone in the business remains very strong at GBP 373,000, 6% lower than the prior year, reflecting the increase in headcount. Underlying operating profit margin remained strong at 12%, slightly down on the prior year period. But if you adjust for the foreign exchange swing other side, it's 12% both years. So we've maintained operating profit margins. Forward order book has grown significantly at $82.6 million, a 47% increase on the prior year, and it's really driven by growth in sale and purchase, and particularly newbuild. And as I've mentioned, net cash remains positive at GBP 1 million, and we expect to see this continue to improve in the coming years. Finally, total dividends at 13p, an 8% increase and in line with our progressive dividend policy. I'll now hand back to James.

Thanks, Grant. I appreciate that interest. Right, I think I explained a little bit earlier about, obviously, from what we do and obviously the volume. As you can see, the 8% rise in fixtures. If you look at the global fleet, since 2004, you can see it's obviously increased, and that's on everything. And bear in mind, we do fix all the best ships from small tankers to LNG to large tank, all tankers sector, all dry cargo bulk sector, even the car carriers, you name it, we do all the sectors. So obviously, we, as a broker, as we cover these markets, is going to fix more ships, obviously, more fixed ships, more revenue. That's what I'm trying to get across. If the freight rates move up, we make more profitability. That's it. I don't want to sit here and sort of build on the facts, because it's very important to say that as a broker, we do capitalize on where we are in the world today and what's happening in the world today with the Red Sea closing, political issues, but that normally indicates why freight rates move up. And once again, because of that, as you can see, we'll explain further, is that the main traders are now -- were worried about where freight is. They don't want to go short freight. They're taking out long positions, 5- and 10-year deals, which is why one of the reasons why our forward order book is rising and also getting involved in, obviously, new building sectors, I discussed as well. So the fleet is obviously getting old. And in the tanker side, it used to be -- used to call it 15, 20 years, it will phase out. Shipbuilding capacity has shrunk. And since 2008, because there's an overbuild, is taking time to catch up on where it was. So now we have an aging fleet, another reason why one's getting bright because we run our ships, how we're going to move our goods around the world, okay? And plus, we're seeing more tonne miles because of the likes of Panama Canal and because of the Red Sea. Once again, highlighting freight rates go up, revenue goes up, so et cetera. New building order book, as you can see from the -- for the factory crisis and after factory crisis, this massive build here. That's come down, level itself out, and we're still at the cycle. But the problem is with so many new sectors coming in and every fleet this time as opposed in 2000 need to be replaced because of age situations. That's why we're seeing our new building team so busy in that sector as well, which once again, you're contracting ships at $265 million. At 1%, you can start working out with revenues coming from, and we are very active in that, whether that be in London, Greece, Singapore, Korea and China. So we're covering all those sectors. So as I mentioned earlier in the very, very beginning, we as a broker, as in Braemar, we're able to put the whole deal together, whether it be the finance, the deal, we can contract the ship. We can do a long term of that, and we can offset the risk. And that's why we feel we as a company are really moving forward as we can look after our clients in that respect. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, we're not necessarily regulated as in ship broking, but we're right on the cusp of being regulated, and that's what the clients are wanting. So can we go to next slide, please. So I think here, we have a Baltic index, not a Braemar index, but Baltic Braemar Index, which basically is all the ships from every sector you can imagine. And this is where you can see it was in 2016, where it went there through COVID, that has a lot to do with where the container market, as you all know, went through the roof. And so tankers then dry bulk, and then it started going down. But we're still here. So we're still very strong. And we feel this is going to continue for all the reasons I'm explaining earlier on where the shipping cycle is at the moment. And it's not just myself. It's many people in the business from the analysts, who's in the shipping sector to the ship owners, to the trading side. They're all feeling exceptionally bullish about where the shipping market is. You can see with the tanker rates, where in 2016, we had the peak there, we come back and we've done that. But the forward curve on the futures market, which we're obviously also involved in, is very positive as well going forward, as is dry cargo. I mean the dry cargo market, for example, on the futures market was $17,000 a day. On the Cape market, which is the larger dry cargo ship with $17,000 for Q4 '23. And for this, for Q4 '24, it's moving to $27,000, $28,000 a day. So you can see the positive swing, the market is totally in contango as far as shipping markets are concerned. If we can move forward, please? So I just think, I think from what we've explained, and so if I repeat some of the things today. But the fact is the summary is we've put in a robust revenue performance. And obviously, I'm proud, and we are proud of the fact that we came in where we said we would come in. And as I said, I want to thank Grant for getting the numbers out in time. But we've definitely cleared, we're definitely putting in together a great platform across the globe that we can continue to -- we're feeling very pumped regarding that. Fixture volumes were up 8%, another reason why I said earlier. Acquisition is performing well. And as I said earlier, they're actually enhanced from where they were as a business by some 20%, 25%. So when they were singly on their own by coming into Braemar, they've obviously been out to break into new markets because of the information coming out of the larger group. So that's an important factor. Maintained that cash position and obviously, once again, progressive dividends, as you can see. Outlook shipping, I've explained that as well. Gut feeling, very positive where shipping is at the moment the next 5 years. I'm not getting personal thinking that. It's across the sectors. Strong forward order book. We believe we can keep maintaining that forward order book, as we keep pushing to do that. So that's very impressive. The '25 numbers in line so far and the first 2, 3 months of the year were in line with where we want to be. The fragmented market position opportunities for us for further growth, which we believe we will do that. We are, obviously, as Tris mentioned, we've got many eyes and is on different sectors that we can get into them. We're not going to do anything silly. We're going to be basically looking what strategically makes sense for our business and fits in. And of course, as I said, a platform for growth. So we're feeling very positive from where we are today. Well, I think it's going to be Q&A. If we can just wait for the microphone just for the recording, if anyone's got a Q&A.

Robin Byde from Zeus Capital. Just on your dividend policy. Can you provide more insights into why you lifted your dividend? So profits are down, cash is tighter, and you seem to have lots of opportunities to invest for growth, and yet you lifted your dividend quite significantly.

Yes, we went out. We said we've got a progressive dividend policy. Profits are down for the reasons that we outlined, but we still feel very confident about the business. And so as a Board, we decided that we could increase the dividend in line with that policy that we stated and that's why we increased it by $0.01. We feel good about the business going forward.

Usually, you have plenty of outlets for growth, you can invest in and that kind of thing.

Yes, there's still plenty of opportunity for growth. But we've got, as I've sort of alluded to, we've got access to an additional facility if we wanted to use debt to buy deals. There are other deals that we could finance from our free cash flow. So there's a lot that we can do and still maintain the dividend.

You talk about opportunity for M&A. What are you seeing in terms of competition from other players who are looking to consolidate in terms of?

As in the smaller companies?

Yes. As in the buyers for the smaller companies like yourself?

Yes, I think that -- I believe we're attractive for the smaller shops coming, and we've proven that by the deals we've already done. I think, because also -- because of where we are as a share price, as a public company. And of course, as I said earlier, is the fact that we're moving into not necessarily regulated business, but is getting close to that. And that's one big reason why they want to come on. And the clients are asking -- demanding more and more. I mean there was a difference in the '90s to where ship broking was and where ship broking is today. In the '90s, it's more about your friends and you're doing business now. The senior people and the big companies are expecting the companies they talk to, to be able to cover all of the aspects and make sure they have the compliance and the KYC. So that's why we feel quite confident. And we've seen it from our recent acquisitions. They're actually enhancing that by coming into us, they can basically look at -- they can satisfy their customers by reaching into new sections. So we feel confident.

But I think -- I'm sorry, you...

I was just going to say, I think one of the advantages we have over being a plc, Austin Clarksons, is that people that maybe were looking to acquire, have that transparency as to what we are. Certainly, a lot of comparable-sized businesses that aren't public have very fragmented ownership structures in which we've looked at some of those and find them reasonably complicated, and perhaps that might put people off showing them.

Yes, I was going to echo that. But also, we have a very disciplined approach to this. So if there is competition going to overpay, we just outline what we look for as well, we're very disciplined in our approach to M&A as well.

You mentioned, you talked about your free cash flow and the [ FCF ] here. Could you just talk us through your capital allocation policy as a sort of in terms of basic principles with regard to today?

Yes. Look, I think when we're thinking about how we allocate our capital as well, remembering we've only just got into a net cash position 2 years ago. But when we're thinking about it, we obviously have the progressive dividend, which we've got in mind. We want to keep a sufficient buffer within the business as well, because we are in a cyclical business and we've done a lot to protect the business. So we have that as a consideration. We want to also make sure that we've got some capability to do deals. So we're thinking about that as well. So they are the key considerations that we really think from a capital allocation policy. And as we continue to build our cash buffer, we'll be talking more about that in the coming years.

What do you think the atmosphere is going to be at Posidonia?

I think -- well, I see to be a positive one, I think. I mean, if you look -- if you -- I'm sure you have read some times of trade wins, it just feels like the market is in a positive place, and there's been, the last 2 or 3 years have been very positive for the owners. So I feel that they're in a very buoyant position. So yes, definitely a positive atmosphere for sure.

Andy Murphy, Edison. You mentioned a few times regulation. Can you just sort of outline what's driving the regulation, what organizations it's coming from and give us a flavor for maybe what costs that might introduce yourselves and what opportunities it will throw up? Because presumably if it's going to cost you guys some money, some of the smaller guys are going to struggle to front that cost out and may present opportunities for you, for Braemar.

Well, I'll explain a few. I'll let Tris, obviously, on the cost side, but I think...

Yes. I mean I think I mean partners are quite sort of publicly on the cusp of the U.S. regulator at the moment, which some numbers have been suggested about what they could be fine, which are probably a little bit over inflated. But I think what we're seeing is whether it's within the regulated businesses that the standards, they're expecting ship brokers who are operating a regulated market to be at, are reaching the same level of where they are for the financial brokers and certainly for me having come from one of the larger interdealer brokers, it always felt like it was just a matter of time before the same standards were required, and the ship brokers that are already with the financial brokers, and we're very much experiencing that now. And I think in the last 24 months, we've expanded the compliance team is probably threefold of what it was, due to the complicated sanction environment that we've been dealing with in the last 24 months, again, we put new policies and procedures in place, which they have to be supported by more resources in the company, which we have two people that do nothing other than KYC on each transaction that we do. You have to add more people to the legal framework, that we have to facilitate those transactions. And I think it's just that sort of slow squeeze out of cost for the smaller brokers, that they won't want to meet that cost. It's been very easy to run a ship broker in the past on a lean budget where everybody gets paid out maximum profits, but they haven't wanted or probably don't want to make those investments in the future. But obviously, ourselves and Clarksons and other people at that scale can do it and have done it, and are continuing to move forward. And I think that will make us an easy choice for consolidation.

Yes. I mean we've made a lot of investment in the account. As Tris said, well, probably another couple of heads join in this. But we're really embedding that across the organization, legal and compliance work hand in hand because there's obviously a lot happening with the sanctions regime. And so that's what our clients expect, and that's the investment that we've made.

And just to add to that, obviously, as we build the business, obviously, those costs get diluted within the system anyway, right? So there's a reason why we need to build and why there's an appetite from our side to continue building. And of course, it's -- I just want to add, I forget that this has been a year of -- there's been some distractions in this year. I'm sure you're all well aware, and I want to thank all the management team for getting through that period, and keeping a focus on the business. And I think that's what I didn't see that coming a year ago, and then it came and then suddenly, I thought here we are, but we came through it. And here we are coming out the results were weaker than we anticipated. And at the same time, delivered a number that we're in line with. So there's no excuses from us to say, how are we going to readjust our figures because of this distraction. We've kept ourselves focused usually on the business, and the team has done very, very well.

I'll just make a final point as well, just sort of building on that. When we talk about a platform for growth, that is the investment that we're making in compliance, IT, finance, that infrastructure to support the growing business. So the brokers can come on board, generate revenues, and then we start to get that scale in effect, and we see that operational leverage coming through.

Your longer-term strategy was to double the business by '25, which is less than a year away. At what point do you think you might be in a situation or a position, where you'd like to sort of update that, those base targets?

Well, I guess, we could sit here and say like we've done that already, right, because you can see -- because when we said that, we like some that circa, yes, '29 to now we could sit and say that. But at the same time, we've got a lot more to do, we feel. Yes, we lost some time this year because of the distractions we had. But we feel we can do that. It'd be nice to come out here in the years' time and say this is where we really are in the market and how that's what we did. So we've got a lot of vision, a lot of ideas. And -- but at the moment, you can safely say we're on track. That's the most important thing.

I think the keeping run at we said sustainably doubling rather than so. So '23 was strong rates, very strong performance. This year, more resilience. And we had [indiscernible] as well, right? Yes. It's about sustaining that. But yes, FY '25, we're on [indiscernible] for the market.

A good indicator is obviously the forward order book. So that's obviously, that drops into the year, and that obviously helps us going forward. So that's always -- it's always nice to start the year, namely you've got revenue coming into business, you even happen to open the doors in the 1st of March for us. So yes, so we believe we're on track. I think I believe with now all the problems from the past have now gone and we look forward to the future now, right? So it's taking a bit longer than I thought it was. I wouldn't expect to get a few hiccups on the road. Last one was a big one. But we've got through that now. And like I say, if you say we're now moving forward.

Perhaps one for Tris, as we have a common background into dealer brokers. I mean on the OTF market, I mean, to me, that changes the shape of the business a bit at least. Are you confident you've got your arms around the risks, the processes, the competition? I mean are you up against the likes of BGC, for example, who are building out in the space as well?

Yes. To some extent, we are up against the bigger interdealer brokers that are established in energy and commodities. But we do feel that we have a foothold in that now. And we already have, let's say, a strong regulatory framework within the business to support securities that's capable of doing that as an OTF. I mean we're not taking any risk for ourselves. We're still an agency-only business. So I think -- and it is something that's very much customer-driven by existing clients that we have within the securities business, want to trade other products that we have to have an OTF to do that. So I think that the -- I don't think OTFs are sort of another step of risk for us to accept, as an introducing broker.

But I think we're off, but just to add to that point to Tris. We are offering slightly different to the regular interdealer broker and speaking to the teams that we brought in, compared to where they were before. They're definitely like in the environment different to where they were before. They're seeing the value added from the physical team, so you could take the -- I don't know, the physical coal broker who's sitting there. His client, when he talks to his client on the coal side, the client is sitting next to his driver trader, his physical trader for moving the coal from A to B. So we're basically filling in all that when they go out together, they're all interlinking. So that's a difference to when they work. You take the -- you could take the B2C mode. They haven't necessarily got. They're just sitting as a one desk, island desk trading, whatever product it might be. We're now in a bit more, which is the same or similar to what I mentioned earlier about doing the finance, new building, chartering offset risk. So we're trying to emulate that in those who are not necessarily -- not going to stop looking at FX broker because that's mostly going to complement our desk. But -- and there's so many desks that do complement our physical desk, et cetera, and that's where we're heading. So we are offering an alternative in that space. Thank you very much. Guys, thanks for all coming.

Thank you.

Thank you.