Bruker Corporation (BRKR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello. Welcome to another morning session at day 2 of the UBS Global Healthcare Conference. I'm Dan Brennan. I cover tools, diagnostics, pharma services. I'm pleased to be joined with me in this virtual meeting with senior management from Bruker Corp. Without any introduction needed, we have Frank Laukien, Chairman, President and CEO; and also on the phone is Miroslava Minkova, who is the Head of IR. So first off, thank you both for being here. And I think the approach will be, Frank is going to provide some opening remarks for a bit, and then we'll get into Q&A. And anyone dialed into the webcast or going through the computer, please feel free to pose any questions you'd like on the computer and I can see them pop up on my screen. So with no further ado, Frank?

Thank you very much, Dan. Thanks for having us on the UBS Virtual Global Healthcare Conference. Pleasure to meet with you, so to speak, again. Hey, I wanted to comment on the excellent research you guys are doing and the many expert calls that you're setting up. It's really very high quality, very relevant, and we're dialing into some of those to learn what's going -- what else is going on in the market. So a great job on that. I'll keep my introductory remarks on Bruker relatively short. You've seen our Q1. Obviously, in Q1, China was the primary story. China is beginning to reopen gradually. In Q2, we've expected a 15% to 25% revenue decline, maybe that wasn't as severe as some may have expected, who had expected maybe 30%, 35%, 40% declines. The main reason for that is that academia in most countries, maybe in France and India, it was really close. But in most countries, academia was working from home, like for many of us. So professors are writing papers and doing grant proposals at home and university purchasing and procurement are working from home. And so it's all very sluggish, but it hasn't come to a complete grinding halt. Looking forward, I think the most important thing to share, if you don't know it already, is that I'm actually not simply optimistic, but really by now quite confident that the academic and government or nonprofit research enterprise will reopen this summer. That's certainly true for most of Europe. That's certainly going to be true for the U.S. with most states or essentially all states. There's some -- that's very different. A lot of people have asked, well, what if they're not teaching the students in the fall. There is really 2 different realms of academia and fundamental missions. One is education and how to teach undergraduates, and that is really almost a parallel universe and separate from the research enterprise of the big research universities and medical schools in this country and elsewhere. And I'll give you one anecdotal example, but I think it's indicative. Yesterday, our Massachusetts Governor Baker reannounced the phased gradual plan to reopen Massachusetts and the key item for us, Bruker, was that, as of May 25, academic research labs -- or research labs in general in the state can reopen. Now this isn't going to be some big bang reopening. This is going to be gradual. I've had lots of contact with customers at Harvard Medical School labs at Harvard Research -- Main Research labs, but also from Ohio to Colorado to California, and it's to Europe. It's -- the pattern's everywhere. Everybody is in the process of planning. Every group, every department is putting together their safety plans, work from home as much as possible, have masks, social distancing, as little overlap as is absolutely necessary. But fundamentally, I'm very confident that by June, July, August, the research enterprise of our big academic and nonprofit sector is ramping up gradually and that probably by middle of third quarter, it will essentially be not back to the old normal, but at a new normal where they do all their research they need to do. They do it differently. They do it just like Bruker does things differently. We're open. We're essential. We're working, but our parking lots aren't very crowded. And except for some of the production facilities, we're mostly working from home and doing virtual investor conferences. So maybe I'll stop there. But I think the big misconception or maybe the big sigh of relief, perhaps maybe that the academic research enterprise is coming back this summer. I'm real very confident in that. And I think it's going to be a global trend.

Interesting. So maybe before we dive into that, which is obviously a critical element to the Bruker story. Maybe we can just kind of step back a little bit, pull the scope up a little higher. Maybe give you an opportunity just to comment a little bit ex-COVID and in terms of the Accelerate story, the margin improvement, free cash generation story, but where -- maybe use this as an ability just to kind of readdress this kind of multiyear improvement story that Bruker has been on and kind of where are you in that evolution? Obviously, you had your Investor Day last summer. So you kind of went through a lot of this, but I'm interested to see kind of how would you characterize particularly on the Accelerate side, kind of where are you and how much has COVID maybe impacted the ability to see those growth initiatives play out?

Yes, good question, Dan. Yes. So on -- we have now between 2014 and 2019 really a very nice track record of gradually improving organic growth. It wasn't bad last year in 2019, and continuous good, steady margin expansion. And now that gets just -- that gets not -- gets interrupted, not disrupted, interrupted in 2020, obviously, with a weaker first half of the year and while I expect sequential improvements in Q3, Q4, we do not expect to catch up for the first half of this year in the second half. But we hope to -- we continue to invest in our Project Accelerate initiatives. We also continue to invest in our operational excellence and productivity and future capacity, improvements -- with improved setups for productivity and doing it in a lean way, so that, of course, as we, in the future, accelerate our revenue growth, again, that we don't do this with a -- without a commensurate equal cost increase. So obviously, the drive for margin improvement and productivity continues, and the high growth, high-margin growth initiatives for Project accelerating -- Accelerate are really all remaining on track and the investments continue. We have almost 0 concern about liquidity or cash positions. We're in an excellent position there. And so we will continue to invest even this year in some things or even just say -- I could say that this is a perfectly good year to make investments and accelerate some of these things and focus on that. And so we don't know whether there will be -- we think there'll be very strong life science funding from essentially all governments until that incremental life science funding from NIH and elsewhere in Japan and China and Europe trickles down to grants and -- to grant proposals, grant reviews, peer reviews all of that and until people can spend and order. That's going to be from our 2009, 2010 experience, that can easily be 3, 4, 5 quarters. So I think while we may get incremental orders in the second half of this year, I think mostly that will be incremental revenue in next year. So fundamentally, I think we're going to be on track. I kind of almost simplistically think of it that I'd like to think we'll be on track with what we said at our Investor Day that we have a 1-year interruption with particularly severe drop in Q -- in the first half of the year and then sequential improvement in the second half of this year. And hopefully, more or less, can continue where we were by 2019, in 2021. Of course, I'm not giving guidance for '21 right now. We're not even giving guidance for 2020, but I think that's going to be -- the interrupted long-term trend will be intact. And to add a little bit more optimism there, I actually think and I know other executives in our industry do as well that not only diagnostic, but life science research funding based on this, let's call it, a wake-up call from the pandemic will be really sustainably very, very strong in the next 5 years.

We'll dig into some more of those kind of exposure trends as you go through this kind of dialogue. But maybe just -- again, tactically, just kind of staying with some of more of the short-term stuff and then we can go to some of the bigger picture, more longer-term issues. If you -- you kind of talk about your open remarks with academic, which is great. Is any other notable things to maybe that you would call out since the Q1 call? I'm not sure, I mean, we're asking companies here since there's such a focus on [indiscernible] week-to-week right now, that's where we're at. But any other thing you would call out notably since you [indiscernible] group?

Yes. I think there's on -- from -- the -- right, so I mean, industrial demand is taking -- is slowing down. That's for sure. We don't know how quickly that will recover. About 20% of our demand comes from industrial, industrial research customers. Fortunately, we're not very exposed to energy and low oil prices, and we're not very exposed to aerospace. Those industries are obviously hit very, very hard. Other industrial, a little bit of automotive exposure, but just a lot of other advanced materials, fine chemicals, polymers, medtech and so on. There is a slowdown there for sure. And how quickly that will recover, that will be -- that will in part shape how 2021 comes out. Will there be a 3-year downturn? Or will they recover in 2 or 3 quarters? Nobody expects a quick V-shape recovery. We don't know yet. Our pharma business and biopharma business for NMR and mass spec is, in terms of orders, is doing really well. And we did not necessarily expect that. We expected anything that's COVID vaccine-related or antiviral to do well, but it's really, really broad-based. And so our pharma, biopharma orders in Q1, including from -- in Q1 and then going into Q2, including from China and from the U.S., is really quite strong. So that 14%, 15% of our business is likely to grow. It's going to grow anyway because that's one of our Project Accelerate initiatives. We've developed a lot of really useful and indispensable solutions from drug screening to reaction monitoring to many, many other particular workflows in pharma and biopharma. So that's doing really well. And then separate a little bit from the rest of industrial semiconductor metrology, which has been a stiff headwind of all of last year with a really low point in Q4 and in Q1, independent of COVID of this year, the orders are really beginning to pick up. The demand there is obviously very healthy because we're all on Zoom calls and Teams calls and whatnot all the time. And the IT infrastructure worldwide sees big investments. There's some political investments that will be made in new foundries, including apparently in this country. And so anyway, we see orders picking up and that I think that's one of our -- it's only about 4%, 5% and maybe 5%, 6%, 7% in the future of our business, but that has some of the best incremental margins. And there, we're fairly optimistic. We're also expecting decent orders there in Q2, had good year orders in Q1 that, that semiconductor metrology piece will be, at a minimum, the absence of a stiff headwind, which we had last year and in Q1 and more likely a beginnings of a tailwind from a good incremental margin business. So those might have been the highlights other than academic life science research funding and, of course, diagnostic funding and MALDI Biotyper doing really well. Biotyper growing nicely. It's not impacted by the focus on viral testing because it's also infectious disease and you need to rule in, rule out bacterial infections or detect coinfections. If someone's on a ventilator and they also have a VAP, a ventilator-associated pneumonia that's bacterial, you'd better catch that early on because the patients are in trouble with COVID to begin with. And so that business has remained healthy, remarkably healthy. And from a small scale, our molecular testing, PCR testing for -- including for COVID -- for active COVID infection is growing very nicely now in Q2 and will begin to ramp from a modest level. And that's a European play, that's not a global play for us.

Great. Frank, that was really helpful. So when you think about just opportunities around COVID itself, you mentioned the PCR of a modest level. Just -- is that -- I think, go back and scrutinize the transcript, and maybe just walk us through a little bit in terms of where you could benefit, maybe it's on MALDI, maybe it's similar to some of the PCR testing companies, maybe there's a lot of rule out for flu, so they benefit as we get into the fall. But just how do we think about potential COVID benefits for you? And feel free if you want to kind of go back towards academic funding since that's an interesting area to discuss. Any color on that and/or sort of the testing categories?

So there's 3 buckets to that. And let me take it one at a time. There's the academic research funding, a lot of NMR from structural biology to drug screening, particularly for drug screening, maybe the structures for viral antigens come from cryo-EM or crystallography. And then NMR people, these days they just take these structures and then they do -- they get the constraint for screening against drugs, their NMR and also to some extent mass spec is very strong, but particularly, NMR is benefiting from drug screening campaigns, fragment-based screening and so on. Mass spec is used a lot for looking at protein expression networks and how they may change in cell cultures and so on and how they, in fact, can be then in tissue cultures be impacted by various drugs that exist already that we know are safe, that we know how to dose and they may not be the cure because there probably isn't a cure, a vaccine could be a cure. But other than that, there's not going to be a cure. But one or multiple drugs, maybe eventually drug cocktail, like in the case of HIV, may turn the tide in terms of mortality for those that go into the severe Phase II, often with ICU and perhaps even ventilators. So there's a lot of fundamental research from structural biology to screening, to protein networks. There's a lot of applied metabolomics work also being done by our customers with NMR primarily, but also with mass spec on looking at body fluids, plasma, maybe also urine, cerebrospinal fluid, but primarily blood plasma in looking at host response, why do some patients with a similar risk profile, one -- some barely have symptoms or have no symptoms and others deteriorate badly? And can we make any predictions? And can we see how that may get modulated with various drugs or preventative anticlotting medicine or other things that may reduce the cytokine storm and so on. So looking at host response by metabolomics, our research tools, NMR and mass spec play a broad -- are used in a broad range of COVID and COVID-related patient response research. That's very positive. The second bucket is microbiology. Again, that's not virology testing, but it is not -- unlike dental or other elective procedures, it's not down, but it's actually up. It was up a lot in Q1. That may not be quite sustainable, the orders in Q1. There were some special business from China and so on. But I think our microbiology will remain healthy and not grow as much as viral testing per se, but it will grow reasonably this year because you need to rule out, rule in and you need to make sure that you can stratify your patients and isolate them based on risks, and that's very different whether someone has a bacterial or viral infection. So that business is doing remarkably well, even though many other medtech procedures or elective procedures are obviously hurting, and we're not even hurting, we're actually benefiting and expect to remain healthy. And then last not least, yes, our PCR testing that's on the market already in Europe, and we remain -- the market in Europe is so big, and we also sell a little bit potentially into Africa and India there. But we're sticking to that. That was that $40 million per annum roughly molecular diagnostics Bruker-Hain business, Dan, that we acquired 18 months ago. We acquired 80% then. And in January, we went to 100%. So that's ramping up. That's going to double shift that only -- that has nucleic acid extraction. We can sell anything we produce right now. That's a big -- that's a good business right now in support of ours and other people's PCR test. It has robots. And then, of course, there, we also have a COVID assay that was now being run in Germany, U.K., France, Spain, a few other countries in Europe, and we're ramping that up further and developing also more refined second and third-generation tests. So that's not as big as QIAGEN or Thermo with ABI [ Life, ] right? But it's a nice tailwind that won't offset the headwinds this year, but it's a nice tailwind, and it gets us into a lot of new labs that we hadn't been in previously. So we've been placing a lot of systems and robotics. And so then we can get the consumable pull-through also beyond COVID testing, we think. So that's a good pickup for us. Finally, we also have begun -- we have a lot of experience for ELISA in serology development. We have the ability to express antigens in human cell lines and in E.coli and all of that. We've always done that as a CMO business by our in vivo subsidiary in Berlin. We're now leveraging these ELISA development capabilities and production capabilities, again, initially for the research in European diagnostic markets to develop something that's not on the market yet. We're, of course, cognizant of what else is coming out and what other people are doing and trying to be smart about finding niche tests for which there will be demand also later in the year and into next year. And I think there's a lot of opportunity. This is not all going to be dominated by the big Abbott, Roche, high throughput players, but these markets are, in fact, quite fragmented, and there is high-throughput and medium-throughput and low-throughput customers and customers that have different applications. We think we can find some new niches there also in antigen and antibody testing.

Interesting. So I guess on that last point, we'll have to wait and see. I mean, obviously, niche, but is there -- could you provide any color about like not necessarily what you're going to roll out or what you're working on, but just a little more maybe qualitative color about, but what are some of the areas that aren't addressed by the big platforms that we should be kind of considering that might be aligned with your capabilities?

Let me comment on that when we come out with products. Obviously, there's competitive aspects. And I mean, I think some of the tests that are coming to market are -- it's good to have them, and they also still have some weaknesses, sometimes in terms of specificity, sometimes they have different targets. Once you go below the headlines, you'll know that they look for different antibodies to different antigens. And some of those -- how does that all line up. So how does that line up with hopeful natural immunity from people that are affected, how does that line up with the vaccines that are being developed. So it's a very dynamic field. And then there's different test scenarios. There will be probably some at home testing or maybe getting at work testing with a fingerprint testing, and then there'll be the more -- the better and more sophisticated lab tests, but you may not always need those as a first line of defense. So it's very multidimensional. It's very competitive. But we have some really good capabilities there, and I'm not saying that we'll have something completely unique, but I think that we have something that could be an additional add-on business that we finally, with skills that we've had for quite some times and capabilities, but that so far, we've only used for ELISA for other customers in other fields. And now for the first time, we're putting all of that together and we'll be aiming to enter those markets later in the year with hopefully smart differentiated products or a second-generation test.

Good. And we'll certainly look forward to that. So maybe on bookings trends. Obviously, you opened up with a lot of comments on academia. How do we think about -- if you came into the year expecting, I don't know, what the level of growth you expected out of academia, if your business is 3/4 instruments. Is it possible that you could still achieve the same level of revenues in 2020 on an instrument basis from academia, simply from -- you had a big hole early on right now, but if these labs are going to still look to deploy their instrument budgets, but just they're a bit delayed, I mean perversely, we've heard it's consumables businesses that could be more negatively impacted because it's just hard to make up for lost days sitting at a bench. But if you're ordering an instrument, you could still make that up. So how do we think about that within academia for Bruker in 2020?

Yes. I mean the instruments part actually won't be so bad there, I think, because you can consume 10% or 20% less consumables in a given year, but you either have an instrument or you don't. You can't have 0.85 of an instrument, right? So the instruments business, there will be some delays. Obviously, our -- as you know, our bookings for our scientific instruments business in Q1 were flat year-over-year. Flat, all of a sudden, sounds not so bad, right? Our revenue was down 8% or 7% in constant currency. We'll see how that plays itself out in Q2. We haven't sliced it by revenue growth by instrument sector. So you ask could my -- could our revenue -- instrument revenue growth by academia even be flat year-over-year. I don't even know. But because we're not slicing it by sector, by instrument in that sense. But we'll see by the end of the year. So sorry, if I have to sort of pass on that. Very valid question. But I think in the second half of the year, in academic, so first of all, there's some -- there's a little bit of a backlog from orders that we haven't been able to deliver or install, that backlog will probably take the rest of the year to clear. That's not all going to happen in Q3, and that's fine. And then I believe there will be actually strength in academic spending by the time the labs are open and I expect the labs to open in over the summer, basically. And so we might see decent academic orders in the second half of the year, most of that will probably become 2021 revenue.

And then a question we've asked to a lot of companies -- well, maybe not so much at this conference...

Sorry, if I may correct myself, most of the incremental funding from academia will probably be 2021 revenue. I did not mean to imply that we won't have academic revenue in the second half of the year, we will, of course, and most of that is already in our backlog or will be by the end of Q2.

Got it. Yes. No, that makes sense. And if we think about like if you were -- pre-COVID, if you were to think about 2021, you made some opening comments about your Project Accelerate -- '20 pressure and kind of where you get to in '21. But if you thought about your revenue opportunity from a dollar basis in '21 pre-COVID, and now we're here today with COVID and the hole it's created, industrial, as you mentioned, there's a lot of uncertainty. What pace that part of your business comes back, we don't know. But if you just think about academic, like is it possible if you were going to -- if you were looking at certain dollar amount this year, certain dollar amount next year, there's obviously a growth in '21. And now we're here today, '20 is going to be weaker. But is it possible you could still achieve that same level of dollar in '21 or possibly even higher because there is this use it or lose it mentality with budgets, like we've just said, like instrument budgets tend to get spent. I mean folks don't want to lose those. I'm not quite sure how much of your business is tied to endowments, which we've heard could be weaker. But any way to think about beyond as we climb out of the COVID hole, how we think about, again, not asking for guidance in '21, but just conceptually this budget opportunity for academia in '21?

Dan, '21 could be decent for us, including academia. I mean, first of all, academia, 80% of our academic funding is outside the United States. There, it's government paid, nobody there has declared savings programs, especially not in life science research. We think those will be very healthy. In the U.S., you'll -- endowments don't worry me all that much. All endowments are down, but then the way universities operate, they put a 5-year smoothing filter on top of everything and so do foundations and philanthropy. They don't spend much, much more in 2019 because their endowments were up because the stock market was up, and then they can also weather a storm in 2020. That's exactly what happened in 2008, 2009. Endowments were down, but previously, they had been up and they kind of -- so you see a much, much attenuated effect than on instrument or academic spending. But endowments will be down, and so that will be a concern to some deans and provosts at private universities. And I think the -- maybe the biggest weakness could be state budgets that supports state universities. That's -- I'm a little bit nervous about that in the U.S., not so much overseas. On the other hand, I think federal funding, NIH, NSF, DOE, DOD, you name it, it's probably going to be very strong. However, until these large billions enacted by Congress, then go into a grant program and there has been proposals and peer review and the principal investigator or professor gets the budget to buy a mass spec or something an NMR or something like that. Our experience, I remember that in 2009, 2010, we had these jokes among even in the industry, where is the stimulus money, where is the stimulus money. And eventually, it arrived, but it arrived after sort of between 9 to 24 months, it's a long tail, which is good for sustainability, but it's not going to make much of a difference this year, even if there's a lot of money beginning to trickle through the system, I think it's really going to be a 2021 and even 2022 story. And then, however, I believe that a lot of that more -- increased life science research funding, I think, will be fundamentally sustainable for the next 5 years, I think, funding in life science research, not only in virology and antivirals and vaccine development, but generally, I think will be just -- I think it will -- I share the optimism of other executives in our industry that life science research funding will be very strong in the next 5 years and stronger than before the pandemic quite honestly.

Interesting. Yes. No, it makes sense, I think. We'd spoke with some European economic researchers that were worried about the impact of the economy on the ability for governments to fund, that -- yes, I mean, it was in a large sample set. Maybe can we just -- a comment on China. You opened up with comments on China in terms of the impact, but what -- I think the business was down 30% in Q1. Is China a proxy for how that market opens up for the rest of the world? Obviously, it's not going to be perfect. But any color you could provide on kind of what's happening in China. And whether or not that's kind of a useful insight towards Europe and U.S.?

It might be. China can close more abruptly than Europe and the U.S. It maybe can also have more of an organized, coordinated industrial and academic policy. So in China, things might -- maybe a little bit more V-shaped than elsewhere, although not a strict V-shaped recovery either, but -- in the rest of -- but directionally, trend-wise, not timing-wise or predicting steepness, I think China could be a good proxy in -- for a recovery. So -- and I'd rather have Q2 data under my belt when I speak to you again in early August or something like that. Right now, it's not really with good metrics. Right now, it's all anecdotal. But yes, China orders are picking up from academia, paperwork gets done, import, export, lines of credit, tax certificates, all that stuff that also had been frozen or gummed up is now opening up again gradually. Logistics, transportation is becoming still more expensive than before, but not as ridiculously as expensive as it would have been a couple of months ago. So these things are coming back, but basically logistics and infrastructure, and some pretty remarkably good pharma orders also from China, which you'd almost think that seems like a coordinated industrial policy rather than coincidence, but I don't have any other evidence for that. That's just my -- from our little bit of Bruker data there in NMR, I'm -- I thought that was highlighted for me that, that's remarkably strong. It's in orders. It's not in revenue yet. It might be revenue later this year then.

Got it. Okay. No, that's helpful, Frank. We have about 5 minutes left. Maybe we could talk about some of the gigahertz backlog that you have, obviously, at the placement in, I believe, in Italy or the delivery in Italy. Just kind of -- I know this came up on, obviously, the 1Q call, but any way to frame and give us a flavor for the current backlog, the ability to deliver that, what the appetite looks like? Obviously, this is a very interesting part and differentiated part of Bruker. So I just want to make sure I don't -- I make sure I touch upon this and understand how this is going to flow through over the next couple of years?

Dan, that hasn't been disrupted. That really has -- I mean, I expected that delivery in -- the delivery occurred before COVID in Italy. And then I was absolutely -- I was very convinced that, that would just come to a grinding halt and some pretty heroic engineers stayed on-site for almost 2 months and continued that all the way to acceptance in Q2. For modeling purposes, keep in mind, we'll only get revenue in Q2 for a part of the instrument and the magnet in this one particular case is on the long-term lease program. But nonetheless, it was a huge milestone. The first customer accepted 1.2 gigahertz with his new hybrid magnet technology underdevelopment for 10 years, wow, now it doesn't only work in our factory, but now it works at a customer's site and it's accepted. So huge, even if it's not financially material or even in a given quarter. Looking out, we've continued in the factory. We got another magnetic field and so on. So that's on track. We've even -- are increasing our capacity for that, so we could deliver more systems in future years, not yet this year, but by 2021, '22 ramp further. And now it mostly depends on customer readiness, but we're hopeful. We don't know the exact timing yet, and it's really case by case. We're hopeful that we can deliver another couple of systems this year, don't know when exactly. And of course, these are acceptance -- the revenue recognition there is upon acceptance, not upon delivery. So whether they all make it into this year's revenue or some drift into next year is hard to say, but I'm optimistic that we can deliver another couple of systems sometime this year.

More broadly, like anything on the demand side? Obviously, COVID's put a damper on that, but these are multi, multiyear kind of projects in terms of the durability of the platform and what it's going to deliver. Like, what could you -- how could you speak to the interest level?

That you -- if you recall, we got our first Asian order, and we got our first U.S. 1.2 gigahertz order from the Ohio State University in Q4. There are additional potential funding projects -- funding discussions in the U.S. that haven't been turned down, and they haven't gotten the go-ahead yet either. So I don't know what the result of that will be. And those may -- those decisions may have been slowed down a little bit by even administrations and federal government administrations, everybody working from home and not being quite as fast as they otherwise would. We believe that once people catch their breath from COVID, that some of the -- well, let me put it this way, the large funding projects and special supplementary budgets in Japan and stimulus funding in 2009, 2010, believe it or not, was actually particularly favorable for big-ticket items. When you were given as a program administer an extra $50 million or $100 million to spend, it's actually much easier to put that into 10 or 20 orders rather than 200 or 2,000 orders. So in times of stimulus or extra budgets, very often grant administrators, but also universities kind of say, hey, what's the one thing that we really always wanted or that we really need and that we cannot readily buy out of our ongoing budgets. So 2009, in terms of orders, but really '10 -- 2010, 2011 was excellent for instruments, and believe it or not for big ticket instruments. So let's see how history -- whether or not or to what extent history repeats itself. But this is the time also in Asia and the U.S. to say, "Hey, we need a $15 million system. We don't just need a lot of $25,000 bench top systems or consumables." Those you get anyway. But this is the time that you can ask something that really enables your research for the whole university or for even a consortium of universities or medical schools. But I don't have very specific case-by-case visibility because right now, everything is still being groundout by COVID, COVID, COVID. Luckily, NMR for drug screen for structural biology and then looking at dynamics and screening, NMR is really, really useful, except you can also do a lot of that good work at 600 and 700 megahertz, that does not only work on gigahertz systems.

Right. Okay. Well, I didn't get to all the questions, but hopefully get the right ones. Frank, we're at the bottom of the hour 11:30, and I think that's it. So thank you very much, Frank and Miroslava for being with us, obviously, and good luck the rest of the day and look forward to hopefully seeing you in the not-too-distant future.

We are looking forward to that, Dan. And thanks again for having us. It's been a pleasure.

You got it. Take care. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.