C. E. Info Systems Limited ($MAPMYINDIA)

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to CE Info Systems Q4 FY '26 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference has been recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Anmol Garg. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thanks, Eira. Good morning, everyone. On behalf of DAM Capital, we welcome you all to Q4 FY '26 Conference Call of Napa India. We have with us Mr. Rakesh Varma, Co-Founder and Chairman of the company. Mr. Rohan Varna, Mappls DT Private Limited; Mr. Anuj Jain, CFO of the company; Ms. Sapna, Chief Operating Officer; and Mr. Nikhil, President of the Government business. I'll now hand over the call to Mr. Rakesh Verma for his opening remarks. Post that, we can start the Q&A session with the entire management team. Over to you, sir.

Thank you, Anmol. Good morning, all of you. Thank you for joining us for the Q4 and full year 2026 Earnings Call of [indiscernible] India, I extend a warm welcome to all our shareholders, analysts, investors, partners and members of the financial community joining us today. Let me begin with our Q4 financial performance. Compared to Q3 FY '26, the fourth quarter delivered a strong sequential improvement with revenue growing by 54.8% in increasing by 41% and PAT also growing by 171%. Q4 FY '26 EBITDA margin has expanded 460 bps year-on-year to 44.6% and PAT margin has expanded 230 bps year-on-year to 31.3%. The Board was pleased to express its gratitude to all the shareholders by declaring a final dividend for FY '26 of INR 350 per equity share of INR 2 each at the rate of 175%. These results reflect improved business movement strong execution and a meaningful recovery in operating performance during the quarter. On a yearly basis, let me give you a perspective since IPO days, Five years have gone by, our revenue growth CAGR for the 5 years is at 24%. Our EBITDA growth CAGR over the 5 years is at 19%. Our PAT growth over the 5 years CAGR is 11%. And I think this probably will give you some good perspective of from the time we went to offer IPO where you all joined and owned the [indiscernible] shares probably gives a good perspective of our past. In many ways, the trajectory that was -- we witnessed through much of has meaningfully reversed in the last quarter. While the earlier part of the year saw a gradual softening in momentum from Q1 through Q3, Q4 market positive inflection point with improving business activity and stronger execution. We are encouraged by this shift and remain optimistic that this renewed upward trajectory will sustain through FY '26, '27, supported by a stronger order pipeline of over INR 1,750-plus crores, improved visibility and growing demand across our businesses. FY '26 has been a year of consolidation resilience and strategic execution for the company, marked by meaningful progress across leadership alignment, organizational accountability and technology adoption. At the same time, we continue to sharpen our focus on technology and innovation, particularly around the adoption of AI to drive productivity and innovation. It is important to note that during the year, we secured several large and strategic orders, order wins across automotive OEMs, enterprise digital transformation government, logistics and mobility segments. We have also witnessed a meaningful increase in our open order book and pipeline visibility. The strong growth in executable orders provides us with the enhanced revenue visibility and strengthens our confidence in delivering improved growth momentum for FY '27. One of the most encouraging developments for us continues to be improving adoption and engagement of the Mappls app ecosystems which has recorded 45-plus million download till date and 10-plus million downloads during the year. We are seeing increasing consumer acceptance improving user engagement metrics, stronger retentions behavior and expanding use cases across navigation, mobility, EV experiences logistics, safety and geo intelligence. The Mappls platform today is evolving beyond navigation into a comprehensive digital location and mobility ecosystems for consumers, enterprises and developers alike. We remain highly confident about the long-term opportunities ahead of us and are committed to creating sustainable value for all stakeholders. With this, I would like to close my opening remarks, and thank you for your patience.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Anmol Garg from DAM Capital Advisors.

A couple of things I wanted to understand. Firstly, what led to our weaker performance in A&M vertical for the year-end, what is the outlook now for rate stocks for FY '27 from a [indiscernible]

I don't know if I understood the question, it was clear or not. Can you repeat Anmol?

Am I audible?

Yes.

Yes, sir. Sir, I wanted to understand what led to a weaker performance in both automotive and mobility and consumer enterprise vertical for the year? And what is the outlook now for FY '27?

The first part is the entire year had a muted growth overall from INR 463 crores to INR 474 crores. So naturally, overall growth in either 1 of them is not much expected. It might be a little bit growth, it's more in the one and a little bit slowdown in the other. That's how it makes up the same number. On a quarter-on-quarter, if you look at it, CME has increased 142% Sequentials quarter-on-quarter, I'm talking about, has increased 142%.

Right, sir. Sir, but overall C&E vertical has shown a decline for the full year. Just wanted to understand what led to -- what were the issues at least in the previous quarter towards the first 9 months of the year?

Now we're talking about the full year. If the C&E declined by minus 3%, A&M increased by 9% and so coming to C&E specifically, it's decline if you are talking about 3%. Well, C&D also includes the government. And the government business that was expected for the whole year was -- has been -- a lot of them got delayed or deferred for the next year. So that's why you see that decline.

Right, sir. Sir, so considering there is a deferment of contracts on the government side. So should we return back to a 20% kind of plus growth levels in FY '27?

You're talking about overall or just the government?

Overall

Overall, as I gave you the 5-year CAGR has been up 24%, right? While last year itself, it has been like 1%, 2% times. So your question is can we expect to come back above 20% for FY '26. That's the guidance you are asking about?

Right, sir.

I mean I'll talk from the government angle, I think we are fairly confident that we will do this. If you see we closed the government open order book of more than INR 200 crores significantly more than INR 200 crores. And I think for the first 9 months, we have already explained what were the dynamics across the different across the different segments. But we saw a strong Q4 that's the inflection that point that we have seen. And so the government business itself should see a significant growth in this year. And also the IoT business, which is basically underpinning on being driven across government, but also automotive on the corporate -- that is also going to see a significant growth. So in that sense, we are very confident and fairly excited about the year to come under large pipeline. The overall pipeline for the company is about INR 17 crores, INR 50 crores, which is the order book. And in general, across this different segments, there are lots of large opportunities or I would not say lots of large opportunities, some extremely large opportunities in each area. And so even if a few of those convert, this probably will have a significant impact in the future of the company. But besides those few extremely large opportunities, obviously a strategy robust and diversified pipeline funnel, which are to be converted into orders, the same way that happened last year. Overall sales are looking good. We had our strategy session. We had an annual planning session, we had a budgeting exercise, and I think all the teams are ready to go.

Understood. Secondly, we have always given a data point which is revenue conversion from our open order book in our annual report. Now this number has been coming down from some 21%, 22% in FY '22 to now nearly about 13% in FY '25. How would this number would be in FY '26. I'm just asking so that we can project how much of the current order book will convert into revenues for next year?

See, in FY '26, the conversion from open orders. Let's say that open order book FY '26 beginning was INR 1,500 crores. Correct, Anmol? From that INR 1,500 crores, around 17%, 18%, I guess, 18% got converted into revenue. So that makes it from 1,500 18%, you can calculate, it is something like INR 270 crores. The rest of the INR 200 crores revenue came in FY '26 was from the new order that we booked because how much new order we took? INR 780 crores, we booked new orders in FY '26. Out of that, INR 200 crores got converted into revenue itself, leaving behind INR 580 crores for the future.

So sir, going ahead as well, should we expect that the order conversion would be in the range of 17%, 18% the [indiscernible]

Hard to explain because it depends on different contracts. But we have given you a trend. Previous year, it was different. Next year could be different it could be higher or the potential could be higher towards more higher side than the lower side or the percentage.

Okay. Understood. And just one last thing from my end. So we are close to about INR 600 crores of cash with us. So how are you planning to use it? Just wanted to understand our capital allocation policy over here.

Very good question Anmol. If you see our cash and cash equivalent is what you are talking about, that's close to INR 600, right? The previous year also, it was similar. But this -- the year we generated a lot of cash also. So overall, what we have done the capital allocation in FY '26 was INR 120 crores for organic growth. This organic growth included the growth in the government business. It's included in the IoT business. It included in creating intellectual property. So these were the 3 primary ones. [indiscernible] small acquisition also happened, but that was a smaller number. So overall, INR 120 crores of capital allocation did happen last year.

Right. And how are we planning to go ahead in FY '27, like we are planning to acquire companies or invest more organically or are thinking about any dividends or buybacks?

Our first priority, which we believe is the way to do is to provide organic growth. Now remember, there are 3 verticals, market segment wise, government, auto and corporate. In terms of segments, you can think we already are giving you Mappls and IoT led. So investments in IoT part of it because IoT also requires capital. I can explain the reason when we get the IoT business, it is done on an OpEx model for the customers, which has 2 -- where hardware and software are put together and that's where we get the subscription on a monthly basis. But when the hardware goes to the customer, it is treated as a fixed asset in the company's books and gets depreciated over the next 3 years. So as we keep growing IoT business and you will see a very good growth in the IoT in this year and the coming years because we have now a full peer management focused on growing the IoT business. Similarly, when we come to the government business, there is a requirement of working capital requirement there particularly in the form of receivables because the government payments, in our case, we have not seen any write-off in the government business, which is the hallmark of our selecting which government business we take or we don't take. The only thing that happens is the delayed payments in the government. That's all. So that means if there's a delayed payment on the government, it requires working capital support. In that scenario, Mappls BT and [ g-tropy, ] both require internal capital allocation. And whatever the legal format is, but we need to invest there.

The next question is from the line of Ashok from Data.

A couple of questions. So firstly, again, on the order book to revenue conversion, so your definitely this year was very difficult in terms of, let's say, revenue conversion and you pointed out that there were some government orders got delayed but if you can just elaborate on the front or let's say, quantify where were the impacts and whether those, let's say, deferrals will come in FY '27 as far as the revenues is concerned.

Yes. I mean as we explained during the Q3 earnings call, some government contracts were delayed. Now Q4, you've already seen the stronger sharp recovery and so we see that -- so we see that going into FY '27 as well with that open order book and government side being significantly past INR 200 crores with a pretty strong pipeline and hopefully, some extra large deals also on the annual besides the robust pipeline. So we are fairly confident on how this year will play out when it comes to government.

And any update on our FY '28 guidance?

FY '28.

INR 1,000 crore revenue guidance, which we have.

We have been talking about it a lot with you people one-on-one also in the earnings call also, that back in '23, we set a road map of INR 1,000 crore target for ourselves. And the road map sold that in FY '28, we will try to achieve it, okay? But for the last 1 year, we have been saying that while INR 1,000 crores, number is not changed. The question is only could be of timing. So our road map continues with INR 1,000 crores. The team and the entire leadership team is working on it. The timing is something we'll have to watch a year every year. So let's say, right now, you know where we have the -- and what would be the expectations we talked about that 24% helped in the CAGR over the years. Last year, the growth rate was muted maybe 1%. Now once we pick up that with a large open order then we'll have to wait for FY '27 to happen, and we'll know where we have leased some INR 474 crores to the next.

Okay. Is that because we already had open order book last year as well, right? And this year, because of 2 factors, your government orders got delayed despite INR 100 crores billing already happened this year. as an analyst, we are not able to, let's say, get that confidence that we can grow 25%, 30% sort of in FY '27. And because of that, I wanted 2 data points, yes?

Yes. So for the data point. Now from that last year, we said that we could convert open order by 18%, correct? And certain orders got execution got deferred to this year, FY '27. Otherwise, it would have been higher than 18%. So one is the conversion. So now we have a INR 1,750 crores of open order. So one way to look at it is see that whether it is 18% or 20% of the open order getting converted. I'm talking from an analyst angle only, if that number, let's say, 20%, then 20% of 1,700 is almost like [ INR 250 ] crores. And then the current year also, we saw how much we could convert right away. So all those things add up to when you say -- look at that, then you will find that, yes, there is no reason not to believe that we cannot grow at 25% in the FY '27. But the actual versus real actual versus potential can vary. And that you will watch it over quarter after quarter.

Okay. Just one request, if you can quantify how -- let's say, what was the size of the less government orders which got delayed?

It's hard to say. I mean, new orders that could have been won and then could have been executed in part, especially some extra line orders. So it's hard to say that -- what is that number. But again, like Mr. [indiscernible] said, last year, the in-year orders of INR 750 crores, about 20 of them, 20 cores of them were consumed. So that's about 25% in year orders. So I mean, with new set of orders here we'll see what can be -- how much percentage can be condo. But it's all pointing in the right direction on at least from our perspective, you can track it by quarter.

The next question is from the line of Kotamarati from CWC.

Mr. Verma, just the first thing, right, like the previous participants of what they are trying to hint is the lack of visibility that we have on how the revenues are getting converted across 9 items. Just in continuation and you are asking us to believe that if we have been doing in the past 5 years, why will it not happen? But this year clearly was a disappointment, right? Overall year basis, I'm just talking about -- so just specifically, you are trying to compare Q3 versus Q4, and you have coached us for so many years that do not look at our business quarter-on-quarter, it's a year-on-year business. Now suddenly, we think the momentum is picking up back. But when I see the numbers specifically, you said in Q3 that there is no reason why Q4 growth should not be similar or better than last year if I take that number, it looks like it's a INR 45 crores, INR 50 crores mix in the revenue. It should have been INR 190-odd crores, it's about INR 145. Can you help me understand because as an analyst, as an outsider, we do not understand it. Can you help me understand specifically where is this INR 450 crores is?

I mean, unless I start telling you the names of the accounts, how do you -- I mean, it won't be clear what -- however I try to explain it. we are making an overall statement that ES Q4 by itself and on a sequential basis, you have seen the kind of growth, 51% revenue growth or something like that. on a sequential basis. If more revenue could have been converted in Q4, it would have been 75%. That's the gap. The gap is maybe 5 accounts or 6 accounts but the orders in this gap can. Sara, do you want to

And [indiscernible] , just keep in mind, it's a B2B business primarily -- so if the orders getting the order gets delayed even by a few months, and that automatically defers the revenue conversion on that. So when we talk about -- when we talk about it, we talk about this is what we believe is when the orders will come and post order, how soon we'll be able to execute it or deliver on it. Sometimes, the new ones that we are expecting, which can convert into revenue [indiscernible] a natural course of activity. So many times we talk about it based on the funnel that we have, which is in the late change and where we have significant confidence in that this few months then unfortunately, it doesn't convert into revenue. It doesn't change the fundamentals of the business. It just changes the timing.

I totally get it. But see, you did your last call around first, second week -- it was already 40, 45 days, which you had seen the business, right? -- order book was there already like INR 1,500 crores at the start of the year, [indiscernible] crores or INR 17 crore, INR 80 crores at end of Q3. So I don't think so you did not have the order. There is some -- and you had the visibility, right? Mr. Verma indicated that he feels it would be a similar growth quarter. But still there was some kind of a miss. I'm just trying to understand as an outsider because you guys are seeing it internally, there is a mirage. There's a INR 45-odd crores mix, almost 30% of revenue in Q4. I'm just trying to that.

I can't help you without naming a couple of them and [indiscernible] help with a couple more naming is not right. So yes, there was an IoT order in the automotive sector which we could -- we had thought that it happened in the Q4 only. We thought that we will be able to consume it in the quarter itself. And if we could have consumed it, its value would have been INR 20 crores. So you're talking about that INR 45 crores, right? And I gave you the name -- without naming, I give you a specific account. Now that 20 that got delayed, for certain not execution capability of ours, but there were certain regulatory things which we had to fulfill. And now we have fulfilled that. So that will start reflecting in Q1 and Q2.

It also depends on the customers we being ready to go on the road, right? Because in IoT, we have to install it in the customers' vehicles. So as Mr. Verma said, if there's like a large fleet that has to get rolled out of the customers. If their vehicles only are not ready to roll out, then how do we install the IoT and start billing for it. So we kind of talked to you about the existing orders that is -- so that gives you one example. The other example I can give you is in the government side, agency response system or one of the largest states in India, very large order for us should have been executed in Q3, consumable executed latest by Q4. But the government itself was delaying on the system. So it is a little bit out of our parent. So that gives you one other government order. And third, we have done a very large vendor in the -- again, in the IoT space related to government. Unfortunately, that wafer retendered. Otherwise, the execution of that should have started already. So I think these are yes, all -- under No.

Actually, this helps, right? So that's what as external, we don't understand exactly the dynamics. What I am hearing right now is large part of the mix was more customer related than our execution capabilities. So this was at least not clear to ask to give some more color -- and fairly, what I understand, what you just explained is all customer-related issues of INR 20-odd crores IoT plus some government side push outs? And is it fair, these are just push out, right? Some days, it has to come. It's just getting delayed.

It's not just a on to Q1 and Q2.

We also really wish that these are execution in Q4. But ever, it was -- these are just push out.

So that helps. So these are just pushouts. And other things, just on a full year basis, what I wanted to understand, right? So See, in the C&E business, you have 3 broad parts. One is your consumer IoT, the second is government. And then there is core see any business, which is like your -- the APIs which you give to e-commerce companies, et cetera, et cetera, right? When we just try to cover because you have fairly in past also given what is your government business and you have also indicated what is the IoT business, which is in consumers. If we just carve out those things, it looks like this core C&E business is stuck around somewhere in the INR 5 crores range for 3, 4 years, it was only 25 where this number was north of INR 10 crores, INR 20 crores. This is all back on the on of calculation. Can you just help us understand how does this lend

[indiscernible] give you our plan because I know it not only confuses you guys, it confuses us also. So going forward, from Q1, we are thinking of changing that reporting of CNE and A&M to auto and retail as one corporate as a second one and government as a third one. So we are thinking on those planning for it. And if we go ahead with that, there we will break up for FY '26, Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4 also, so that you can have a comparison. Now coming to your difficult question, which confuses us also concluded view. I don't know if Rohan?

Yes. I mean, I'll just say that in the corporate world, once the large apps integrate our APIs and STKs as one example, and the usage ramps up, our revenues ramp up. So you've seen one of the largest new entrants in [indiscernible] -- one of the largest e-comm company, they have looked at it. I think they're going on investment come now expanding rapidly -- we have until center in their app. I mean it's probably one of the best examples I talk about Amazon now about we can start integrating [indiscernible] anybody using Amazon now we'll see mass I think of Bangalore, they are fully launched normally also they are rolling out now. I mean, that's -- but that's just one example I'm trying to give -- so this is a gestation period in some of the corporate TKA customers, our objective is to be inside of as many apps or as many enterprises. And as they use scale, that should lead to better outcomes. Also, I would say, on the corporate side of [indiscernible] and this is across the group, the 3 companies, but primarily to our focus in the private sector. One is almost exclusively focused on the public sector. But there is a pretty strong push in the corporate world to put more and more of our IoT solutions. And we're seeing some significant wins there as well. So with IoT, the SaaS revenues kind of compound as their number of vehicles also increased. So I mean I would say it's in a state. And probably you'll see CME also, which is the corporate and government kind of -- you see some good growth gap going forward.

Amazing. If I may just squeeze one more for Sapna. Sapna, in this Q4 core auto business, seems like a bit soft, right, because the kind of growth we are seeing in the automotive world, even if I adjust for the Hyundai variation which you are having, is it a bit soft? And is there a reason? Or is it normal in your mind?

So I believe that the contract that we have in place, the open orders that we have in place, in the automotive space on the headcount, they will give us witness in future years and that they are negative quarter. So whatever contracts that we have with us and broadly, you have an idea that the learner not we have seen growth in quantity aligned with the industry. But that applies to the programs that we are presenting and our tax rate has grown only over the -- as compared to last year, it has gone in on capacity our presence in -- across different [indiscernible] has increased. It set was what we have already made undated we would have given.

The next question is from the line of Rajat Ji from Fortum.

Yes, all my questions are answered.

The next question is from the line of Raj Kumar Vintafrom ARK Invest.

Yes. Sir, just a couple of questions. Yes. The first one is on the government contracts, I see that the AR numbers have gone up significantly. So any reason for that?

I couldn't hear your question clearly. What did you say?

I'm talking that you were using to tote number that you are showing for March that has gone up significantly. And based on your presentation, I understand will be due to poor collection from government contractors.

Yes. I think the government business actually things are -- things have really -- so over the course of year, what we went with the government business that will give you some color. At the beginning of the year, we decided to kind of rationalize as lion subsidiary, all MapplsBT with a focus that we will grow our government business within that. And so if the team moved to that subsidiary, orders that had been collected in -- last India, some of the governments that open order book was subcontracted down to the subsidiary and the team kept working on collecting new orders and had. I think, I would say really good success in different areas, whether it was in defense, whether it was in oil and gas, whether it was in emergency response and urban planning. The other point on the year was -- so one is we had to kind of make sure that this subsidiary became a full plugin operational company. which was able to kind of operate the business in a healthy manner. So the cadence of sales continue for the cadence of delivery, the cadence of collection, all of that had to go smoothly. And so that's why we are happy that we cross INR 100-plus crores in cash collections from customers. We got INR 100 crores and billing or revenue from the customers, and we cross INR 200 crore in the open order book. So there is a strong foundation led very easily with a very good team at the next level, which is as on building very strong platforms all date whether it is in the civil area or whether it is in the defense area. And some of it is fairly advanced frontier set as well in the digital fill space or the defense space. Combining GIS, combining CD, combining AR, VR. So in that sense, I think we are excited for what the government business can do. But at the same side, yes, as we've always said, we are calibrated, we are careful that we take on the business where we believe we can collect the money.

Yes. But do you think the aberration will get corrected going forward? Or do you think it's going to remain elevated for some time?

Which operations, sorry?

This higher DSO days will it be?

Yes. See, I think if you look at our DSO vis-a-vis industry, we are fairly good vis-a-vis industry. But I think said that even internally, we set ourselves to a pretty high standard. And so the teams -- last year also, we could collect so well. This year, we want to collect even better. And so in that sense, yes, we do want to further improve. But if you take -- if you benchmark to overall industry, you'll find us to be a much, much stronger, prudent, clean balance sheet company compared to those who are the government or even we were in our similar space of GIS listed or unlisted.

Yes. So the worst has gone up significantly with the revenue remaining almost flat line. So that is a concern. What is the last the year is that the trade receivable was INR 133 crores in last year, that is March '25, that has gone to INR 170 crores in March '26.

I mean I don't know whether -- yes, I mean I think this is just the nature of government and I don't think we are [indiscernible] Yes, receivable. And I think this is already concerning like I'll tell you why -- we also look at the flow collection. So when we look at what was the receivables from golf, like what was the receivables the year before, when we started this year. Have we collected all of that cash? Answer is yes, we have. So that is a good sign that this flow is coming from the customers, it's not getting [indiscernible] Now so when you look at VR versus when you look at what is actually overdue versus what is within the tariff period, I think we start getting different perspective. So -- and the flow has been pretty solid. So it's -- we are in there, but it's not overdue necessarily the overdue component will be lower than what we are seeing as the VR.

One of the reasons we are actually moving on 2 fronts in the government. One part, as Rohan was saying, we have almost -- not really fully, but almost 0 bad debt in the government. That is very important for us to note. The collection period might be higher. But that's again the nature of that [indiscernible] . Now for us to, as a company to keep growing, we are in a good position as the C.S. Info Systems Limited, the entire group of companies that [indiscernible] , the government business is concerned about nonavailability of the funds. So when -- this is a very interesting good situation with to operate upon where what if they get any good quality business, they will not leave it.

Okay. Got it, sir. Sir, the second question is, given this last situation, government finances are already trained. So do you think this will be one more excuse for the government companies to defer the contracts with us?

I don't know whether we can predict what happens in some of our better the global government or Indian government will do. I think we are seeing -- I mean we are only concerned about it. that what's going to happen. But at the same time, I think we are getting on the positive signs from government that not that the kind of activities we are involved in. necessarily impacted. What we've seen as of now for us, BAU, but it is something to add our projection of the contracted not to minimize that impact. Yes. I think we are dealing with the situation the best we can deal with. But I mean, how can we say what will the government of India and government of U.S., et cetera, and

Okay. Sir, the last question is for the INR 1,000 crore top line guidance.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Lokesh Manik from Vallum Capital.

Sir, my question was I had only one question, it was on the order book slide, you have mentioned of a including the order book up the billing figure is INR 520 crores in the sales figure of INR 40 crores. So this difference is you see what exactly you can just explain.

Okay. Simple answer. When we book an order, we have to book the order with GST. When we do the revenue, we do it without the GST. So if there is a INR 1,750 crores of open order -- in some ways, you can see enough somewhere, it includes 18% GST because when we do the billing, we do the billing with GST, because we are obligated to collect that money. Did that answer your question?

Yes, thank you

The next question is from the line of Kar Rati from CWC.

Mr. Rakesh, Rohan, can you like we see this order inflows from fixed price contracts has been increasing materially over the last 3, 4 years, right? Earlier your variable areas fixed price used to be similar, but specifically last 2 years inflow in fixed price seems to be quite strong. Can you help me understand how fixed price contracts are different. Is it like irrespective you will have to deliver this and will be paid in full over the next 3, 4 years, which you write in the presentation because in volume based, at least, that volume has to happen, right, like autos have to produce APIs have to be consumed. Our fixed price is different in that manner?

Well, first, I would -- I mean if I may ask you -- or sorry, I should not be asking you it's time for you to ask me. But if I may ask you, is the fixed price good or bad in your thinking.

No, I'm just trying to understand. Actually, I don't know enough and that's why I'm trying to understand.

Okay. Fixed prices are different types. In the government, if you can take it, it is a milestone-based project delivery. So that's price there. In the corporate sector, the fixed price is based on certain parameters, slightly some of the big customers who know who they are for us. they expect certain deliveries to happen during the year. And they say for this, I'll give you a lump sum of so much money. That is the kind of a fixed price. And a fixed price model could be that there is a minimum guarantee that I will pay you so much. And if the consumption increases, I will give you more -- so these are the different types of fixed price unless Rohan, if you remember something else.

Yes. I mean Related is supposing we are told that these are the number of vehicles that we have to install and that kind of big at fixed or minimum. So then we know that what the fixed price of that order is. And it's supposing we have told that the term of the order is 5 years or 3 years where the hardware with tax has to be delivered for that's all.

And the fixed also could be where they pay us on a quarterly basis, we will do the billing also on that quarterly basis.

So my question maybe was is fixed price contracts better in terms of conversion to revenue versus variable where you also have to depend a lot on what the customer produces eventually. Like does it give you better visibility is what I'm trying to understand or is it very clear visibility, fixed price.

So with volume projections, yes, it does depend on the customer coflex up or down. I mean -- but usually, historically, it has been fixing up only I think we have been a bit conservative now I understand we are a bit conservative now when we project volume. We -- so that's why you might be also seeing the mix change a little bit.

Got it. This is helpful. And just I had one more, Rohan, amazing performance on the IoT business, right? But also it came with a strong margin uptick in Q4 specifically. Any specific thing happen differently in Q4? Or how should we look at this?

Yes. See, the IoT performance of the IoT led business performance is a reflection of the actions of the business leaders across the 3 group companies, which means that all the folks retain automotive, corporate and government as well as retail, they all have been able to lean in and make -- grow the IoT business in a pretty healthy way. so there is some top line growth, but there's also good margin that folks are bringing in -- and also, I think over the course of the year, that was the objective is how do we optimize the cost and increase the efficiency and productivity. So and that exercise value is still on in the sense that while we believe that we have a pretty strong and stable and a foundation team led well with the next level also organized well and focused. We still see opportunities for cost efficiency which we are focused on. So let's spoke that this -- over the course of the year, I think we see EBITDA from 14% to 16% last quarter, of course, was there to 33%. But over the course of the year, that was the number, we'll -- and we are hoping to increase that 16% in this year.

So just was trying to understand is 3 the right number to look at going forward? Or is it like somewhere '17 might improve to, say, whatever 18, 19, 20, is that?

See was for the quarter. I mean every quarter will we, right? I mean there's operating leverage in this business also, there's a fixed cost and all of that. So I can't say by quarter what the margin will be. But directionally, we have pointed out that in the steady state, this can be a higher-margin business than 16%, clearly. And we are on that project, which is good. I mean there's still headroom for margin expansion.

The next question is from the line of Sri Narayan Misha from [indiscernible] .

My question is again on the lot margin for Q4, we get below the [indiscernible] . Now what we are seeing is that globally DRAM and NAND prices are going up significantly. And still, you have been able to post good margins in the IoT segment. What I can also see is that our inventory levels have also increased of our IoT products. So is it that we have made inventory gains on new models for IBA that's why the margin line?

So I mean, our inventory levels have grown, you have [indiscernible] Yes. Inventory levels have grown to stock up to support the [indiscernible] demand that we see for across the 3 businesses. So we basically maintain inventory to meet the focus, we try to minimize overage. We try to minimize [indiscernible] try to optimize our supply chain correctly. And so that's why inventory is going up because we believe that the demand is going to go up. Yes, unfortunately, prices are increasing. We are doing our part to try to mitigate those price changes. The continuous kind of value engineering that we do and other things that we do, but yes, I mean

So my question was, is the inventory gain in the margins? Because we have stopped inventory, and we would have supplied that at higher prices. So is it because of that?

So you mean is this -- I'm trying to understand the question, like inventory quantity has gone up?

What I am saying, what I'm seeing is that IoT prices are going up because your memory prices are also going up. So we have a significant inventory of IO devices. Is it possible that a new contract we have applied these entries There, we would have made EBITDA margins because we would have purchased at a lower cost and when we would supply the prices would have gone up, and that's why higher margin in the segment.

I don't think that's the reason. I wish. No, that's not -- the reason for margin expansion is simply operating leverage it's not -- yes, it's just operating leverage revenue went up, the mix was better, more SaaS, that mix was better and yes, that's where the margin went up inventory is just a function of what our future demand is.

So basically, you don't buy inventories against our specific order, right?

No. We buy inventory based on the overall forecast across the portfolio of products and portfolio projects or customers that we have. It's not -- there might be a few very specific make-to-order projects. But usually, we have a portfolio of products. And one or more of which is by the customers.

So going forward, how should we see this margin? Will it normalize again to 18% to 20%?

I mean over the course of the year, like I said, every year, we've been able to increase slate margin last year, it went to 16% from 14%. And this year also, we'd like to increase that.

Okay. But you are still seeing pricing business, right?

So from last year, what you leaders in IoT device when you have a combination in the IoT business, not just the hardware but the hardware and SaaS. So when we do the pricing, we'll think about it and accordingly, price the entire solution to a customer. It's not a classic trading. If it was a classic traders...

I know there is a SaaS component to it. Is that because prices are going up. So ideally, there should have been compression of margins, but we have delivered Metal margins, which is good, but just 1 what is contributing to this.

Well yes, you are not wrong by saying that prices of the hardware is going up, the cost of sale or acquisition is going up. So obviously, we also look at that -- and when we get the orders now or the new orders, we try to make sure that, that's accounted for.

Okay. And sir, my second question is on -- in Q2, we had highlighted that we had made certain investments for a specific government projects. So are all those investments now behind us, no certain investment expected was as we [indiscernible]

I mean see, again, so on, let's say, of that specific quarters, the investment that was made now future investment, those future investments will reduce. But in general, if we want to expand, this is related to government and LP. In general, if we want to expand our business into certain areas, we have to kind of do investments. So I mean not going to specifics of what might happen in the future with specific quarters. But I mean, as an overall portfolio, we are on the right track when it comes to government and IoT. So like Nicolas saying, it was originally CapEx driven and the OpEx was given increased margins.

Okay. So but such investment may continue in future as well. That's the to get more rods, right? I say that now.

I can't say right now.

Ladies and gentlemen, due to time questiains, that is the last question for the day. And I now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.

Yes. Thank you all for listening to us I hope we have been able to give all of you a good perspective about the future as well as the achievements that we made iin Q4. And we hope to remain transparent the way we have been. And also, I believe that investors should have confidence in what MapmyIndia as a group is building its business, making sure that the capital allocation happens in the right place and is able to earn margins and the revenue growth in the maximum way we can. Thank you so much for attending the session today. Thank you.

On behalf of DAM Capital Advisors, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.