Capral Limited (CAA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Thank you for standing by, and welcome to the Capral Limited First Half 2026 Results Webinar. [Operator Instructions] I would now like to hand the conference over to Tony Dragicevich, Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director. Please go ahead.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Capral's first half results presentation. I'm joined this morning by our CFO, Tertius Campbell, who many of you will have met in the past; and also by Luke Hawkins, the General Manager of our Industrial business and also our Supply Chain. Luke also heads up our Antidumping and Government Advocacy. So Luke will be helping us with the presentation today. All right. Firstly, turning to the agenda. I will run through the business overview and the first half highlights. Tertius will -- including Luke will talk a bit about the Industrial business in particular. Tertius will run through the financials, and then I'll come back and talk about strategy and outlook and then guidance to finish up. So turning to Slide 3, the Capral business at a glance. Capral is Australia's leading supplier of aluminium extrusion and rolled products. We've got 6 manufacturing plants around the country, 65,000 tons of annual extrusion capacity, 24 (sic) [ 9 ] distribution centers, 19 regional distribution centers, 15 trade centers. The key markets we play in are residential and commercial building and also a wide range of industrial markets, the largest being transport, marine and infrastructure. Overall, the revenue for the last 12 months is around $730 million. Our market share sits at approximately 27% of the aluminium market in Australia, aluminium -- downstream aluminium market, and we have in excess of 1,000 employees. So moving to the first half highlights on Page 4. A really solid first half despite challenging market and supply chain conditions. Certainly, the Middle East conflict played havoc on aluminium supply chains internationally in the first half of the year and also on Capral, and Luke will talk a little bit about that in more detail later on through the presentation. That led to material higher global metal prices, which drove higher sales revenue on slightly higher volume. The residential market remains subdued, and we expect recovery to be gradual. Strong operating cash generation and net cash position. Our margins held up well through disciplined cost and pricing management, and we have a strong balance sheet supporting continued capital investment. So moving to the detailed highlights on Page 5. I won't go through all of these. I'll just pick out the major ones I want to talk about. So overall, a nice improvement in earnings in a challenging market and the standout was our strong cash generation and strong cash balance at the end of 30th of June. So our volume up 4% to 32,500 tons. Revenue up 14%, driven by the higher metal pricing, particularly LME, which I spoke about earlier. Our underlying EBIT up 4% to $16.7 million and our underlying EBITDA up 5% to $29 million. Net profit after tax, just under $16 million, up 4%. Last year's number did include a $2.5 million tax benefit, and this year's included a positive LME revaluation. Overall, earnings per share up 9% to $0.994 per share. Net tangible assets up 6% to just over $13.40. As I mentioned earlier, a very strong net cash position, $62 million on the back of our best-ever debtors collection in the month of June. So really pleased about that result, leading to strong operating cash flow. Our capital management, our share buyback continued through the first half of 2026. We managed to buy back on market $0.23 per share -- equivalent of $0.23 per share, which is slightly down on the $0.27 per share in the first half of last year. And similar to last year, no interim dividend, but clearly, it's our intention to top up the share buyback with a final dividend. I'll let Tertius talk a little bit more about that later in the presentation. Really pleased with our safety performance, best on record, 3.1 total reportable injury frequency rate down from 5.9 last year. Now turning to Page 6, where we discuss the -- our volume and our channels to market and sales mix. We have diversified our channels quite extensively over the last 5 or 6 years, and that supports our overall resilience, particularly in the downturn in the housing cycle. So as I mentioned earlier, first half volume up 4% with the growth primarily coming from our distribution channel, which is a channel where we've made a number of strategic investments over the past 5 years. Our Industrial business now represents 50% of our total volume. That's up from 41% in 2017. And that's broadening our demand on our business beyond just the building cycle, and it does reduce our earnings cyclicality. Our residential exposure, as we've spoken about previously, is weighted to detached and low-rise dwellings, the high-rise multi-residential dwellings, the high-rise apartment market has become the domain of fully fabricated imported windows and doors. So as we're just talking about imports, so imports of both extrusion and fully fabricated windows continue to impact upon the Australian aluminium market. In particular, the big change over the last couple of years has been the growth in imported fully fabricated windows. And as a result of that, the Australian Windows Association, together with the largest window fabricator in Australia have jointly taking -- taken an antidumping case, which is currently in progress, and Luke will speak a little bit about that later in the presentation. So where we sit at the moment, our channels to market are around 50% of our volume goes directly from our mills to our large customers, and then now through our distribution business, 32% of that is extrusion through our distribution business and 16% in rolled products. So rolled, we made sheet and plate aluminium. The chart on the bottom right-hand side of the page represents our 6 monthly sales going back to 2017. And as you can see, the second half sales are typically -- or volumes are typically higher than the first half as we get into the summer months where there's more building activity and we get more feet on the ground out there in the marketplace. So we are looking forward to a, once again, a lift in volume in the second half of the year. Okay, turning to Page 7, specifically here, residential. So while our exposure to the residential market has fallen a bit in recent years, it is still by far our single largest segment that we -- that drives our volume. Just to note that our demand typically lags commencement by around 2 quarters. And if we look at this graph, we can see in 2023, '24, the cycle low and 2025, the market stabilizing. And then this year, 2026, starting to see a lift in housing commencements, albeit we are yet to see that volume start to flow through, but we do expect it to start flowing through in the second half of 2026. Beyond this year, the forecast, as you can see on the slide, a good solid growth in the housing market. A reasonable proportion of that is in the green parts of the graph on which we -- which our sales are primarily planned, which is the low-rise and housing market, but also strong growth in high-rise apartments as well. I think the thing to note here is that the impact of the recently announced tax changes by the federal government, I think the budget was in May, have created a fair bit of uncertainty in the last couple of months about what that means for the -- well, I guess, for all investments, but for us, particularly relevant for Capral is investment in residential housing. So while there is, as I said, a fair bit of uncertainty about that at the moment and the knock-on impact leading to lower house prices immediately. We do think that given the underbuild of housing in Australia over the last decade, that with the tax changes favoring new build that once the market settles that we should see continued strong growth in the new housing market as a result. Okay. Now moving to a few examples of projects recently completed on Page 8. Just want to highlight here some projects completed by our fabricators, the first 2 upmarket homes completed by Busselton Aluminium in WA using Capral's AGS framing systems and also an upmarket home there on the Sunshine Coast fabricated by Elite Aluminium using our upmarket residential system and also our framing systems as well. Then turning to commercial building examples on the next page. Just to give you some idea of where our products end up. So we have a shopping center or outlet center in New South Wales produced by Elite. We have a train station in WA, the Nicholson Road Station. You can see a lot of aluminium used in these new infrastructure projects. And then we have on the far right-hand side, a medical clinic in Charlestown in New South Wales with the fabricator there being PCW from up in the Central Coast. Okay. Now turning to the industrial sector. I'm just going to let Luke, who heads up this part of our business, talk to this slide.

Thanks, Tony. So what we can see here is looking at the key market segments, the transport sector has been pretty steady. You can see it's stabilized from the 2025 downturn and it's been pretty stable into '26, and we expect that to sort of continue through. The Marine segment has been particularly strong for us, particularly the heavy commercial ferry class. So we're seeing strong growth with Incat, RDM and to a lesser extent, Austal in the defense space and Echo Marine. The Solar segment, which is a bit of a longer-term play, we are working with potential beneficiaries of the government's Sunshot solar panel start-up programs, and we are starting to see some initial volumes with one existing panel manufacturer. In the Industrial Construction segment, that's -- we've seen strong uptake with regard to cladding replacement. That continues to evolve and continues to gain momentum, and we expect that to continue for several years yet. And equally, we're starting to see benefit in the data center space. So in that space, we're able to provide into the server racking and arrays space. Both the ceilings and flooring systems, and some of these also have a significant aluminium content as does the facade and exterior, I guess, provide opportunity. It is an emerging area. And obviously, we expect to get more benefits across the coming years in that space, particularly benefit leveraging our ESG certified products in comparison to imports. The manufacturing space has continued -- Manufacturing and General Fabrication segment has remained relatively steady, and we've held our share gains against imports over the last couple of years. Of particular interest is in the reseller space. We have seen BlueScope announce a significant reduction in their aluminium distribution capacity with an exit from Western Australia, significant reduction in South Australia, Victoria and New South Wales. That's presenting opportunity for us, particularly in the transport sector and Marine segment, and we're looking to shore that up, and we've managed to secure a purchase agreement for a significant portion of their inventory to help us enter into the -- into that market more holistically. And you can see, I guess, our volume down the bottom index from 2012 has shown that we've maintained reasonable growth across the last couple of years. Moving to the next slide. We've got a few examples of what we've been discussing there. So what you can see on the left is an RDM, Richardson Devine Marine has constructed a fleet of Sydney ferries. That one there is recently completed. Equally in the Transport segment, to give you a feel for where our metal goes, there are some aluminium tippers there produced by Bulk Transport Equipment in Victoria. And then on the right-hand side, you can see Aussie Play. So a lot of -- we've got a number of customers in that segment producing park furniture, producing playground equipment, et cetera, for -- right across the country.

I think we're about now to show one of our Crafted with Capral videos featuring Aussie Play. So something a little bit different just to show the diversity of where our products end up. [Presentation]

Okay. We now turn to our financials. So I will hand over to Tertius to take.

Thanks, Tony. Let me take you through the first half financials. Three things framed this half. The metal costs rose materially and remained volatile. It is a dominant influence on the results, on our revenue, on our cost of sales and on our working capital. Earnings were resilient in the face of the higher cost across the business. And we finished the half with a stronger balance sheet and materially better cash generation than the prior corresponding half. I'll take each of these in turn. But just before I do that, if Luke -- I ask Luke to just talk about the metal cost component.

So certainly, the Middle East crisis has provided significant volatility in metal costs. And what you can see here that, I guess that's driven by the fact that 9% of the world's aluminium is produced in the Gulf. And obviously, significant interruptions both to alumina supply in the Strait of Hormuz being closed, has conspired to drive aluminium prices to a all-time high. What you can see here is that the average LME price compared to the same period last year was 17% higher. And in addition to that, we're seeing regional premiums in our case, MJP being 22% above the corresponding period last year. That conflict is likely to continue to provide volatility over the coming months, and it's one of the biggest drivers to our working capital going forward.

Just to the next slide, please. Revenue increased 14% to just over $372 million on a 4% higher volume, higher average metal cost and improved mix. The volume growth came mainly through this distribution channel, as Tony mentioned earlier. Underlying EBITDA increased to $29 million and underlying EBIT increased 4% to $16.7 million. The bridge is best read as a cost recovery. Our inflation, which is wages, freight, occupancy, reduced our EBIT by around $6.2 million. That is what the price and productivity are set to recover. Price and mix contributed $5.6 million and further savings and productivity throughout the business produced $1.3 million. So $6.9 million against the $6.2 million in inflation. So our inflationary cost was basically covered in full. Compliance and other costs, you can see there on the bridge of $2.1 million, of which some of it was -- is one-off items and won't be repeated. And the volume and growth added $2 million, taking our underlying EBIT to $16.7 million. Significant items were a net gain of $1.3 million, mainly LME revaluation, giving us a statutory EBIT of $18 million. Finance costs were $2.1 million, of which $2 million was due to AASB 16, the lease charges. Net profit before tax was $15.9 million, up $3.1 million. In the prior corresponding half, we carried a $2.5 million deferred tax benefit. We did not increase the DTA this half. Net profit after tax, $15.9 million. And our earnings per share increased 9.5% to $0.994 per share, ahead of the 4% growth in profit, reflecting also the reduction in the shares on issue through the buyback. Turning to the next page. The balance sheet is stronger than what it was in December. Our net assets increased $7.7 million to $252 million. The net tangible asset per share increased 6% to $13.43, supported by retained earnings and the continued buybacks. Inventory reduced by $3.6 million. The metal cost rose 25% across the half, thus the lower inventory tons, which is mainly a reduction of delayed shipments provided that assistance. Receivables increased $27.9 million on a higher revenue and metal-linked pricing, and our collections were well controlled and achieving a record low DSO in June. Payables increased $25.6 million, tracking the higher metal cost and some timing of the payments improved our cash position at the reporting date. Our working capital was broadly flat at $125 million, while we saw sales grew -- the working capital to sales improved to 17% on a 12-month basis. We ended the half at -- with $62.1 million in cash, and the syndicated facility in place with additional headroom, and we remain comfortably within our banking covenants. Our lease liabilities under AASB 16 totaled $71.3 million. The accounting treatment reduced our net assets by around $17 million or $1.09 per share, which is in a noncash -- which is noncash in nature. To the next slide. Operating cash flow was $28.2 million against the $7.8 million in the prior corresponding half. Most of that improvement is working capital. $1 million released this half against the $16.1 million built in the previous first half, a swing of $17.1 million. EBITDA growth contributed the balance. I would not read this half's conversion as a run rate. Payments for higher cost inventory falls due in the second half, and we expect working capital to increase. Capital expenditure was $8.7 million across sustained and growth programs directed at reliability, automation and productivity. Our free cash flow was $10.3 million after lease principal payments against an outflow of $4.6 million in the prior corresponding half. We returned $8.4 million to shareholders through the final dividend and the buybacks, and cash increased $1.9 million before our foreign exchange effects. Trade instruments, letters of credit, were $36.8 million, consistent with imported product flows and the higher metal pricing. The key points on this was cash generation was strong this half. The improvement was real, but there is an impact -- timing does have an impact on this. Next slide. Capital management. Our capital allocation framework remains unchanged. We target a cash distribution to shareholders of 40% to 60% of underlying earnings over time, maintaining flexibility between our buybacks and unfranked dividends. In the half, we bought back just over 300,000 shares at an average price of $11.77, below the NTA per share of $13.43, which is accretive to our earnings per share and to long-term shareholding value -- shareholder value. That equates to $0.23 per share against the $0.27 in the prior corresponding half. Around 2.2 million shares have now been purchased since we started this program. As Tony mentioned, we're not declaring any interim dividend at this time. Our intention for 2026 is to focus on returns via the buybacks, but then top that up with unfranked dividends as required at full year. The 2027 -- 2026 program is for up to 10% of our issued shares. Buying resumes tomorrow, 25 August, as soon as our results blackout lifts. Over the 5 years to June '26, Capral has delivered a total shareholder return of approximately 97% or around 14.5% per annum compounded growth. Capital returns are supported by the $62 million in cash and our significant availability under our syndicated facility, preserving flexibility for growth and for through-cycle volatility. In summary, resilient earnings, a stronger balance sheet, disciplined capital management that positions Capral well to manage volatility and the benefit of the residential demand recoveries -- recovery throughout the second half. And with that, I'll hand back to Tony.

Thank you, Tertius. I'll now turn to our strategy and outlook. We remain focused on increasing returns on invested capital, strengthening our competitive position and growing our distribution footprint in what can be quite challenging market conditions in this industry. We have a clearly defined strategy, which has been consistent over the past decade or more, which consists of building on our strength, which is we have the widest range of aluminium products. We have a national footprint. We have a strong development of our own aluminium systems and our supply chain and last but not least, committed and experienced people. Second leg of our strategy is optimizing what we do. We continue to focus on our key customer service metrics, drive lean manufacturing in our plants, invest in new technology, optimize our supply chain to maximize our efficiencies and protect our margins through very careful price management and continue to improve our productivity. The third leg is growing for the future, so leveraging these capabilities into new opportunities, developing new products and channels, which we continually do, enhancing our presence in the architectural market has been a big focus in the past 5 years and continues to gain us market share and profitability, and expanding our footprint through acquisition and into adjacent markets. So you'd be aware that we've completed, I think, 5 or 6 small acquisitions over the past few years, and we will continue to do that as the opportunities arise. Talking next slide, just in terms of the key things that are going on around our business. Firstly, manufacturing. Continuing to drive productivity and metal recovery improvements across our extrusion network, ensure that we can continue to spend money on our plants to maintain their reliability. We've got some major capital projects coming up this year at our Canning Vale site in WA and our Bremer Park site in Queensland. At Canning Vale, we're rebuilding the press. And at Bremer Park, we're putting in the first electric furnace in the Southern Hemisphere will be installed at our plant up in Southeast Queensland. So we're very proud of that and looking forward to those 2 projects being successfully completed over the Christmas break. We're progressively upgrading our shop floor control systems, and we continue to develop and deliver automation and digital initiatives in our manufacturing operations. In terms of our distribution business or distribution channel, we continue to focus on developing our own window and door systems and range. And we had a big product release 2 years ago with introducing a new residential systems and the focus currently is on upgrading our commercial systems. We want to grow our direct distribution channel organically and through acquisition. As I mentioned earlier, we've completed 5 since 2022. And just a couple of months ago, at the end of June, we opened a new trade center, greenfield trade center in Geelong, the first new aluminium center for Capral in how many years, Luke?

More than 20 years.

More than 20 years. So very proud of that, and it's a great site, and we look forward to that site in Geelong, which is a really strong industrial area to contribute over the next forthcoming years. The Comsupply acquisition was completed late last year. That business has grown our presence in the window and door hardware market significantly. It's performing to expectation, slightly above expectation, and we're looking at expansion opportunities on the East Coast of Australia in the years ahead, building on that. A big focus on margin discipline, particularly as our metal costs are moving around and ensuring we stay ahead of the game in terms of recovering our inflationary metal cost increases and focusing on our working capital efficiency. Luke alluded to or spoke about the opportunity or the exit of BlueScope from the aluminium distribution in -- on the -- I think all sites apart from Queensland, where they have quite a large presence, but certainly Western Australia, South Australia, Victoria and New South Wales, and we're working to -- working -- we've concluded an arrangement to acquire the inventory from BlueScope in Western Australia, and we're currently negotiating to do the same in the other states that take advantage of the opportunity that's presenting. Most of this is in sheet and plate. There is only a modest amount of extrusion. But by acquiring the inventory puts us into the best position to secure increased market share for Capral from these industrial markets. Anything else to add there, Luke?

I think that covers it. I think it's an opportunity where we haven't had to acquire the business, and we are looking to capitalize on it. We've secured the inventory. We've got the, I guess, the opportunity in front of us.

Yes. Okay. And then in sales and marketing, we continually invest in technology in this area around EDI, digital marketing. We're very active on that front and branding of the business, particularly in the industrial and in the architectural segments. This year, we are -- we'll be implementing a new CRM system. So that's very exciting for our team so that we're bringing all of our customer information together on one platform. We are expanding our lower carbon LocAL, which is our local Capral branded offer or LocAL offer for our low-carbon aluminium, and we now have approved EPDs in place for those LocAL products. Our Crafted with Capral program continues and deliver positive outcomes for our customers. And we have been played a leading part in the Australian Made -- resurrection of the Australian Made Campaign this year. Our Smithfield site was selected as the campaign opening site in late January. We also conducted an event at the MCG featuring the -- knowing that one of our fabricators makes the goalpost for all of the AFL and football games. So that was an exciting event as well. Right. So next slide, we now move on to antidumping, and I'm going to hand this over to Luke. Luke's headed up our Antidumping and Government Advocacy over the last close to a decade now, Luke, I would think.

That is right.

So very close to what's going on in this area. So I'll let him speak to that.

So I think, first of all, I think the slide points out that the impact of the U.S. tariffs has no direct impact on Capral. We don't export directly to that market. And we are dealing with some indirect consequences around trade flows. But broadly speaking, that's the biggest risk associated with it. One of the challenges around the Australian system is, I guess, it hasn't had a great deal of reform over the last decade, and it is an area where, I guess, a contemporary system is important to ensure that people don't work around it. In the aluminium extrusion context, we currently have measures in place against China that were renewed and extended for a further 5 years late last year, which puts them in place until 2030. They are relatively modest and a floor price is in place. Similarly, in Malaysia and Vietnam, and there's sort of 3 different cases that covered those category of products, but we have measures in place for a further 5 years through to 2031 with a similar floor price and modest duties in place. The challenge of all of those cases is that the measures aren't contemporary to the rising LME that's currently underway, and we're reviewing options with regard to that at the moment. The other case that Tony has already alluded to, which is most important for ourselves is the window and doors case. Ventora, one of our customers in conjunction with AGWA, Australian Glass and Window Association, initiated a case on fully fabricated windows and doors end of last year. And that case is coming -- progressively coming closer to finalization. It obviously has a significant impact on our customer base, particularly in that windows and doors space, but competing against fully fabricated imported windows and doors. That case is due for our statement of essential facts. Our preliminary number -- preliminary position to be released on or around the 23rd of September this year with a finalization date as it currently stands due on Christmas Eve. And we continue to advocate for a strong fair system across all of these product types, and we're heavily involved with the government with regard to consultation around further reform to strengthen the system and make it more relevant. But yes, that's what's going on in that space.

Thank you, Luke. Now turning to ESG. First of all, safety, as I mentioned earlier, one of the highlights for us in the first half was an improvement in our safety performance. I'm very proud of what we've been able to achieve there. We continue to work very hard to ensure we provide a safe place for our people to work. EPDs, we have now EPDs for our LocAL products, and we are the only ASI-certified extruder in Australia, allowing us to provide a chain of custody guarantee for our customers. And now with the EPDs in place, puts us into a strong position locally versus our competition to sell a lower carbon product into both the built environment and the industrial environment as well. As far as emissions are concerned, we are on track to achieve our 2030 target of a 20% reduction in Scope 1 and Scope 2. We're well down the path of analyzing our Scope 3 emissions, which, as you'll probably be aware, will primarily come from the aluminium raw material we buy from our smelters and also from the aluminium sheet and plate that we import. Sustainability reporting. Well, we've been through our first climate report. We're one of the first cabs off the rank being a December financial year. So our 2025 climate report was issued earlier this year and not without its challenges, being one of the first to release but a huge amount of work to get that up and running and not to be underestimated the complexity and the challenges this provides for all businesses in Australia, not just ASX listed companies. Okay, let's now move to -- what will be next? Outlook and guidance. Okay, we're on the home straight. Market conditions, as I said earlier, demand is forecast to lift in the second half of 2026 as the commencements start to flow through. Industrial demand has suffered from recent highs, but we expect it to remain broadly stable this year in the second half of the year. LME and premiums are expected to remain volatile while the conflict in the Middle East continues. And we will continue as an organization to focus on productivity, recovery and cost control and have a disciplined approach to capital expenditure. As a result of that, our full year earnings are expected to be broadly in line with prior year, depending on some recovery of the residential housing market starting to flow through into the second half, which we expect. Metal cost volatility, freight cost and residential commencements remain the key sensitivities. So that's the outlook and guidance. And I think that is a wrap for our presentation, and we can now move to see if there's any questions that may come through.

[Operator Instructions] Your first question comes from Andrew Johnston of MST Access.

Yes, another great result amid what looks like a pretty tough environment. A couple of quick questions, if I can roll through them. The CapEx outlook for FY '27, have you -- is there -- what sort of number should we be thinking about for '27?

A little bit lower than current year, around about $10 million is where we anticipate next year to be.

Okay. Tony, the proprietary building systems that have been, I think, an important part of the margin improvement over the last few years. How is that tracking?

Yes. So very well. We have, as you said, Andrew, we put a big investment in the last probably 5, 6 years now into when we started on this program to grow our building systems business. It's starting -- it has borne fruit and continues to do so. We are growing our market share in this area. We have the installation of the paint line here in Sydney, has helped deliver a far better service to our building system customers, not only in New South Wales, but also Victoria and Queensland, utilizing -- able to utilize this line to provide faster turnaround for our customers and good quality powder-coated -- high-quality powder-coated product. We have developed, as I said during the presentation, a new range of residential suites, not only the entry level, but also the higher-end residential suites, which we've now been in the market for nearly 2 years. And the focus in the last 12 months has been on redeveloping our commercial range, which we are consistently doing. So we are -- and together with our security offer with our Amplimesh brand heading up our security offer, our hardware business with Comsupply coming on board, we are developing a much stronger and more resilient building systems division, but also a much more resilient and stronger Capral overall.

Okay. If I'm right, when you made the acquisition of Comsupply, you talked about leveraging that model into the East Coast. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. But I thought there was something around that.

That's correct, Andrew. We're not quite there yet. We are looking at both greenfield, but also acquisitions in this area as well, which we haven't quite concluded at this point in time. But certainly, it is top of mind and is core part of our strategy.

Okay. Excellent. And just finally, the BlueScope exit. You're acquiring the inventory. Has the closure of their sites left any meaningful geographic gaps that need to be filled?

Well, that's a very good question. We don't -- we already play in the major markets. Probably the only one that is a gap which we haven't got our heads around yet is the Albury-Wodonga.

Yes, they have a presence in regional New South Wales that we...

Regional New South Wales, which we don't have in that region. So yes, we haven't -- this is early days, but yes, certainly, it's something we will be looking at.

Okay.

Our competitors, we do have competitors in those regions already.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes. Okay. Okay. So does it just -- the question is -- the question, obviously, you've asked, does it justify opening a new site there when you've already got competitors in that space?

Yes.

Okay. All right. No, appreciate that. Okay. And well done the -- I mean I know you did -- I know the working capital will reverse a bit, but I think that was a massive surprise. Have you given any guidance -- are you giving any guidance around what the cash might look like at the end of the year? Or if it wasn't for -- if normal working capital levels were maintained and not on a dollar basis, but on a volume basis, what would the cash have looked like in the first half?