Carasent AB (publ) (E0C.F) Q3 FY2025 Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome to Carasent Q3 Report for 2025. [Operator Instructions] Now I will hand the conference over to CEO, Daniel Ohman; and CFO, Svein Martin Bjornstad. Please go ahead.

Good morning, and welcome to our presentation of the third quarter. We will start with me giving a general update, and then Svein Martin will continue with the financial update. First, just a quick overview of the business. As you all know, we are a fast-growing SaaS company focused on healthcare and especially EHR systems. We have 16% organic ARR growth in the quarter, more than 90% recurring revenue and a net revenue retention of 111%. Looking a bit on the highlights of the third quarter, we have really good improvements, I think, and roughly according to plan. I'm especially happy about the EBITDAC improvement from minus SEK 2.2 million Q3 last year to SEK 12.2 million this year. This is based on continued growth and good cost control, and we have continued to run the business that way. Looking at Webdoc, in the quarter, when we were working on their price models and also implementing a new CRM system, we were not totally happy with the old one. We identified a few customers that we invoiced the wrong way and that we have corrected, so it's a hit of roughly SEK 1 million in the quarter and on an annualized basis, it will hit us roughly by SEK 2 million each year. And it's never fun to take a step down in the recurring revenue. But what's more important for us is good long-term customer relations and good reputation that we continue to sell on. So it's a onetime hit, but -- and all is good with those customers now. So we're in a good place with them, and that's the most important part. What I find really fun at this point in time is that we have very many long development projects that are now reaching the market, and I'll come back to that on the next slide. Looking now at Q4, it will be really important that we succeed with two implementation projects. The first one is Volvat. I think you all are aware of that, but that's Capio, Norway, where we're implementing Metodika for all the hospitals replacing 6 different present EHR systems. So it's a very big exercise and most of those users are planned to go online in the end of November. So that will be a big project. And when that happens, we will start getting the recurring revenue from those users, and we'll also be able to invoice some consultancy work. So that will be important to get online in time. And also that will allow us to start working with other projects and other customers for that product. The other part that needs to be implemented in Q4, we want to implement in Q4 is within Data-AL, so our German business, where every second year roughly in the German market, there's an upgrade to the security system related to government infrastructure. And this gives us, yes, every second year roughly SEK 4 million of revenue, but it's also COGS related to that of SEK 3 million roughly. So we think that will happen, and we will get that done in Q4. And -- but with both these projects, the risk we have is a delay of those revenues. We'll never miss revenues. So for example, with Data-AL, then it will probably be in Q1 next year. So -- but I don't want delays any revenues, and it's also important to be able to continue working on the next project. So we really want to get that done in Q4. When we look at growth, signed, not implemented ARR now amounts to SEK 12 million. So most of the SEK 17 million of signed, not implemented ARR we had a year ago has now been implemented and then we have had a lot of new customers, some new contracts, so that's why it's at SEK 12 million again. And I think we have really good exciting discussions with potential customers that should get that number up a bit again. We have 16% organic ARR growth in the quarter and 13% reported organic growth. So looking a little bit about what we developing. And these are the projects that we capitalize. The largest one being in Germany. So we believe strongly in the German market, as you all know, everyone is working or almost everyone is working in systems from the '90s. It's time for them to do the same as the rest of [indiscernible] has done to go into the cloud. There are no hurdles anymore for that in the German market, and we're developing a really good solution for that market. We now spent 5 years on that. In total, we spent SEK 87 million and this year, we spent SEK 9 million on that solution. So that's Webdoc X. And now we're entering the pilot stage and we'll start commercial rollout end of this year, early next year, depending a bit on the feedback and then start replacing 1 of our 2 present German products in the market and then continue replacing the other product. The next project is the surgery. So that's in Sweden to have a surgery module connected to Webdoc. That means that we open up new segments. We have now paying customers. We have both pilots and paying customers at the same time in that product and are now out selling and meeting new potential customers for that product and doing a lot online for that also. Next in line is Medsum, where we spent SEK 3 million this year. It's a project that we've been working on for a couple of years, but we didn't capitalize it before. We have been kind of playing around with the technology for a while and see what we can do, but this year, we decided to really make a push for it. So we spent SEK 3 million on that so far. So that's the ambient listening. So we record the conversation between the doctor and patient and make a proposal for a medical note, saving a lot of time for the doctors. We are now at commercial rollout and the first commercial contracts are live. Next in line is one, we haven't spoken that much about. It's NLL. So that's a new structure for prescription of medicine in Sweden. All EHR systems that want to be able to prescribe medicine has to develop new functionalities, so this is something we require to do. It's not a choice we do. But what's really good with it is two things. The first is that it will give all of our customers a really good overview of what happens at other clinics, both in the public and the private sector. So everyone will have a much better visibility of what other doctors and yes, most of the doctors have done and what they prescribed. So that will make it easier to move to our system and not being in a public system. So I think that's really good. And the second thing is that we've built in such a way that we take away a lot of the work from our customers. Most other solution -- competing solutions have put a lot of their security work on the customer, meaning they have to take on a lot of new costs and they have to do a lot of work, which they are not happy about. So I think that will be a commercial advantage for us. But that's also why it's on this list because we will invoice the customers for some of that work we're doing. Not huge amounts, but some. Next in line is Advoca. So that's our solution for patient interactions in Norway. It has been in development for a very long time. We spent first SEK 7 million on it in total, SEK 6 million this year. And that is a solution for the therapist, doctor, [physical] therapist, nurse, whoever is working on the healthcare side to work in the exact same system as the patient. So you have a joint calendar, you give tasks to each other, you talk to each other and so on. It's a really well-liked solution. It's already part of the commercial rollout in Norway, and it's a basis for many of the contracts we won there in the last year and also the basis for the contract that I hope we will win there in the near future. And finally, we have HPI. So that's Health Profile Institute. So that's one of our [indiscernible] companies, one of the ecosystems products, where we have built a lot of new functionality in the last couple of years or quite many years, total spending SEK 35 million on a new platform, and that platforms allow both the occupational healthcare provider, the worker at the company and the company to be in the same platform and to work with a lot of those tests that you need to do for certain types of roles. And that's part of the rollout in HPI. But there, we really have limited investments going forward. It's now where it should be that product, and we will not invest as much in that going forward. So it's really exciting to have all these new parts of Carasent that are being rolled out. This is much more than what we usually have that's being finalized. But I also want to caution everyone that in healthcare, things don't move that quickly. So healthcare professionals are careful in nature. It's a slow-moving industry. So it will not happen overnight. This will drive growth for many years to come, but it will not be a quick win. For example, me and some sellers are out selling, we have a meeting with a really big potential customer within surgery next week. If we're really good in that first meeting, we will have discussions for maybe 0.5 years, 9 months, then sign a contract, then they will have to prepare the implementation and so on and revenues will come in 1.5 years maybe. So it's when it's that type of a little bit larger players. So that's just an example. So don't -- this will give that growth for a long time, but it will not be a quick change overnight. So looking ahead, we spoke about growth. That's obviously important. We continue to grow. We use our resources efficiently with good cost control, always prioritize what we do, compare different projects, opportunities, growth against each other and make sure that we keep costs under control and do what adds the most value and further then to launch Webdoc X, where we have this huge German market where we think we can play a really good role. So with those words, I will hand over to Svein Martin.

Thank you, Daniel. Starting off with our -- some of our important metrics. We had a good improvement in this quarter, both on recurring revenue side and profitability. And we ended the quarter with an ARR of SEK 335 million, including the signed contracts. The ARR grew 27% and 16% organically. Profitability also improved quite a lot, basically as a result of the revenue growth and cost control. So looking at the ARR bridge, you can see that the growth remains quite balanced. We had a net upsale of 14%. It's worth repeating here that -- when we sign new clinics for existing customers, such as, for example, Capio or Aleris, then it's included in the net upsale, and it's an important part of the net upsale as well. Churn was SEK 9 million or 3% and then new customers were 5%. And again, these new customers are -- many of them are small upstarts, et cetera, that grow with us. So they will be -- even though that the figure is not that large, it's a really important growth driver for us to keep that figure as high as possible for the long term because they, again, drive the net retention rate in the coming years. What is good to see is that even though we have this growth issues in Webdoc this year and a bit higher churn, it's good to see that we have been able to maintain net retention at 111% and also growth at 16%, which is quite decent compared to what we have done historically. And the reason for this is mainly the SEK 17 million you see there in the backlog we had last year. Most of that has been implemented and is contributing to different parts of this buckets in the growth this year. Looking at the P&L, we changed our revenue reporting split this quarter. The reason for it is to better show our business model and also to better reflect how we follow the revenues internally and to make a better understanding of the fluctuations in the revenue from quarter-to-quarter basically. So you see we had a good growth on the subscription side. And for the transaction-based revenues, these are -- these sticky-based services that, for example, patient communication or this test for HPI, et cetera. There, we changed some customer contracts to be more subscription-based. So that is why the growth of that is a bit more slow in this quarter. If you look at the total organic growth at 13%, it's quite low, and that is because the consulting revenues were very low in this quarter. There is two reasons for this. Firstly, that in general, we have during the last year or two, really prioritized recurring revenues over consulting. So we have taken a short-term hit for long-term gain. The second part is that the consulting is more lumpy in nature and when we finalize these projects that Daniel talked about, then we will have some big consulting revenues. So for Q4 to reach our targets there, it will be very important to deliver on these projects in time basically. But it's good to see that even though we had low consulting, the profitability improved quite a lot. So EBITDA margins of 29% with no adjustments this quarter or year-to-date. If you look at the adjusted last year, it was 19%, and that was only adjusted for the relisting and the acquisition in Germany last year. EBITDAC improved from minus SEK 2.2 million to SEK 12.2 million. And the next slide here, is one we have shown the last few quarters, and it's a really important metric for us is how we convert the profits to -- sorry, convert the revenues to profits. You see here that if we exclude Data-AL acquisition we did, revenues grew around SEK 8 million, and then COGS increased SEK 1 million, but then we only increased the other part of the cost base by SEK 0.5 million, so we were able to convert SEK 6.3 million of the growth into EBITDA, and that's around 82%, which is, yes, close to the gross profit that we have and pretty much in line with what we aim for. If we include the one-offs from last year, the improvement is 154%. I think this slide is a good illustration of how we think about the scalability of our business. So if you look to explain the graph a bit, if you look at the yellow line there at the top, that's the LTM revenue of the group. So you see that it's gone from SEK 245 million Q4 '23 to SEK 329 million this quarter, a growth of around SEK 75 million. And if you see the gray part on the top of the bars, that's the COGS, so it's naturally increasing a bit with the revenues. And then the light blue part, that's the cash cost base of the Data-AL basically, the acquisition that we did. And then the remaining part, the dark blue, that's basically the opex, capex and personnel expense, the entire cash cost base of the organic part of the business. And what is good about this part is that it's entirely under our own control. We decide if we want to hire people, we decide if we want to take on more opex, et cetera. And you see that the total area is -- it has been quite flat during the period, around SEK 230 million, SEK 235 million. And this is including like wage increases and inflation, et cetera. So we have actually been able to -- in real -- if we adjust for that, we have been able to actually decrease costs in many places. So this is the main reason why the margin -- we have seen the margin expansion we have and keeping this under control is a key focus for us also going forward because if we do that, then margins will continue to scale basically. Finally, looking at the cash flow, it was a bit affected by the working capital this quarter, which is typically the case in the Q3 because of the holiday effect. It's worth mentioning as well on the profitability side that Q3 is generally more, it's generally a very good quarter on the profitability side because of holiday effects, so the cost is lower. As I have talked about previously in the year-to-date figures as well, we had this big relisting costs at the beginning of the year that we paid in Q1 and the costs were in Q4, so that's why the working capital is so weak this year. But Q4 will be a strong quarter for the working capital, where we have some large invoices of annual contracts, et cetera. You see that we spent around SEK 70 million on the share buy-back program, where we bought back a little more than 3% of the shares in the company. And we still have a strong cash balance of around SEK 170 million at the end of the quarter. So with that, we can open up for questions.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from Fredrik Nilsson from Redeye.

Thank you. Good morning, Daniel as well as Martin. I want to start with a question regarding Region Stockholm. A few quarters ago, you increased your efforts to raise awareness in that region for Webdoc. Could you give us an update about those efforts? Are they gaining any traction?

Yes, I think so. Most customers we sign are in Stockholm. And we are pushing that as much as we can, so most of the contracts are there, but I think -- and that over time, we should do much better. So it's -- as we have spoken previously about the best-selling channel for us is happy customers talking to other customers. It's a quite small business where everyone knows everyone and you're quite helpful to each other. So you discuss things with each other. So the caregivers do that. And that's why it's important to get more and more users in Stockholm, so more and more and more talk about Webdoc because many -- most users still in Stockholm have never seen it. They might see ads right now, but they have never seen the product or know anyone who uses it. So it's important to continue to push there. We have in the quarter, taken further steps when it comes to sales also. So separated the role somewhat within Webdoc for sales. So we have customer success managers take care of present customers and pushing the salespeople more out doing cold calls and so on. So I really look forward to the results of those efforts.

And I noticed that you now are reporting the gross revenue retention as well as the churn. But I mean, I guess, looking at the numbers that it's fair to assume that the vast majority is churn and that the downgrades are very limited.

Yes, that's correct.

And regarding Medsum, as far as I understand, it's now in a commercial rollout, as you mentioned. Could you give us an update on the feedback and what kinds of clinics are most open to this solution in this early phase?

Yes. I think the ones who are the most open are the ones who use similar product today. So that makes kind of sense because you have those early adopters. So most of those use it also use -- have used competing solutions before or are using both at the moment. So that gives us a really good comparison and a good feedback. What we've learned, I would say, is that it works really well when you do not have too complex note structures, but some users have really complex and it's not certain specialties, just some users want a really complex note structures. Then it gets a bit harder. And what -- since for us, it's completely built into the solution, we have tested to start without really working with the customer and the competitors who do not -- are not integrated with our solutions and don't have access to the same information, they need to have upstarts meetings. We haven't had that. We've learned that we need to have it because, for example, if you talk to a patient, if a therapist talk to patient and say, does it hurt now? It's very difficult for the ambient listening to know what you have actually have done. So you need to say now I'm touching your right knee and bending it, how does it feel, then we get a good medical [indiscernible]. So we need to do more work with upstarts. So I think that's the learning. So we will sell it a bit differently going forward than we've done so far. So this is all part of the learning process and quite natural, I think.

And also just for clarification, you mentioned that you lost about SEK 2 million in ARR due to the overpayments. I mean, is that accounted for totally in the ARR in this quarter?

So in this quarter, we had some repayments. So in total, it is larger in the quarter than it will be in a normalized quarter going forward as well as some repayments. But the lowered fee, we’re not totally there, but we had repayments in total.

But in the ARR, it is included.

I see. So if it wasn’t for that overpayments that you found, it should be SEK 2 million higher approximately in the quarter. Is that the correct interpretation?

Yes.

And last question from me. You touched upon the surgical module. I mean, the lead times are long, as you mentioned, but are you starting to see some deals getting close to -- a potential close? Or how far are you still from getting some kind of signing?

Yes. So we have some signed contracts. We have some projects now to get customers online or implementation projects. It always takes some time because you have to work through the workflow with the clinic. So how are they working, to set it up properly. Also, they need to be educated on how it works. Also, what we're also doing at the same time is selling much more of our online functionality. So we don't want to sell just the circular module. We also want to sell that different types of information goes to the patient at different times around the surgery. For example, the most common problem if you're running a surgery clinic is patients not showing up or patients have not prepared the right way and so on. So with our communication structures, we can make sure that all that works really well. But then we have to set it up, for example, for this procedure, we send out this information 2 days in advance, and this information half a day in advance or an hour before and so on. So it takes some time, all those implementation projects. It's not a technical issue. It's all about working with the customers setting up everything in a good way and for them to have time to really implement it. So -- but I think we have a great interest. We're trying to find exactly the right price level also to have. We did the project mostly to expand our market, but I mean we can also charge more in total when we have such a product, so that's part of what we're looking at. But I think we're in a good place with the product, but it will run, it will drive growth for a long time, but you will never see a quick change in growth because of it. It's not the nature of this sector.

The next question comes from Elvin Rolder.

A couple of questions from my side as well. Perhaps beginning with the [HO] question of Germany. Could you give us some highlights on what has been the feedback so far? And what you expect perhaps given the initial launch here by the end of the year, perhaps beginning of next year and what you expect for the full 2026 and 2027, so we can get a bit of a sense on the trajectory in Germany.

Yes. So I think we have a really good pace in the project now. We've had that for quite some time, so I'm happy about that. I think that -- and as we talked about before, next year and the near term, we will never see that you grow customer by customer and you have to learn how to sell, you have to learn how to implement. That's why we did the acquisition to really shorten that time, but still for new product, you have to do that. So it will not be a quick growth next year that where all of a sudden, our revenues will increase a lot. The most important part next year is that we have -- the customers we take online are really happy with the product and that they will start telling that story to other customers. And that when we talk to a potential customer, we can say, talk to this customer, and we can have testimonials and so on. And also for us to feel that, okay, this product is really where it should be or do we need to do something more. So that's what I'm really expecting for next year is that we will have really happy satisfied customers in the product that will enable us to really gain markets going forward. We will also invest somewhat in Germany. It's all in our plans and the numbers. And even though we keep costs flat, we are moving costs between different parts of the group, but we'll invest quite a lot more in sales and marketing in Germany during next year.

And perhaps related to the last portion of that costs investments in Germany and the scalability bridge you showed here in the presentation. Given that your new financial targets that you presented in Q2, I believe you give yourself a bit of more like kind of a headroom to grow costs somewhat in the coming years. How should one think about the durability of the current cost math going into '26 and onwards? Are you confident that, that will be sufficient now and that perhaps you have given yourself a bit of headrooms in the couple of years forward? Or how should one think overall about costs?

So I think those targets are the ones that are our targets and what an external -- anyone looking at the company should look at. It does give us headroom, as you say, and more headroom that we plan for, but then also things happen. So there is headroom for things not going exactly as we plan in those numbers. But usually, there are also things happening. So I think as an external, those are the targets we have. We hope to beat them. But I think those are reasonable targets to look at. But that's true. It gives some extra headroom compared to where we've been. I think it's important to invest a little bit extra in sales and marketing in Germany, for example. But we will not go crazy with costs. We have no such plans at all. We are very careful with adding any staff anywhere.

And then perhaps a bit on the working capital side, you mentioned -- I mean, Q3 obviously is usually a weaker quarter for working capital. But is it primarily that coupled with the repayments for the Webdoc clients that have a bit overbuild? Or is there anything else behind the drag on working capital in Q3 that we should be aware of?

Yes, there is these effects that you mentioned for the year, it's the relisting. It's around SEK 15 million that we paid this year. And in the quarter, we have had a customer -- some customers that -- where the invoicing has been delayed a bit, so that will -- we will have a big invoice for a large customer in Q4. So that's why I mentioned that Q4 will be a bit strong as well, a bit strong. So that's the main reasons, I would say.

And the final question from me here. If we think about the margin for Q4 a bit because you mentioned as well that Q3 usually is a seasonally strong quarter due to vacations for the margin. But then again, in Q4, you will also have, if all things go to plan, the Volvat implementation, which I believe will be accretive to the margin on a like-for-like basis. So how should one think about the margin on a sequential basis? Is it fair to assume that it will be at a similar level to Q3? Or in general, how should one [indiscernible] to think about that given the effect that will happen in Q4, if not anything else happens, so to say?

Yes. I think -- it's a good question. In general, the margins for Q3, as you say, is the strongest during the year. You see that what is implied in the targets we have posted is a strong Q4. And for that to happen, we really need to succeed and get these payments on the consulting side in time, basically. But yes, so that's the most important part to reach those targets.

[Operator Instructions] There are no more phone questions at this time. So I hand the conference back to the speakers for any written questions or closing comments.

Okay. We have a few questions here in the chat. The first one is on working capital, which I think we answered. The next one is what are your plans regarding price increases going forward?

Yes. So I think we're increasing prices on average a bit higher than inflation. That's roughly where we are, a couple of percentage points higher. It's different in different contracts. So some public contracts or large customer contracts do not allow us to do it fully or just not at all or partly during the time, especially public contracts can be like that, that they set the entire contract and then you have to just put in your price. So then when you put in the price, you take into account that you will not be able to raise prices for a couple of years. So -- but on average, I would say we are a bit higher than inflation. The most important raising prices is to explain it to customers in a good way. Our costs are quite small part of the customers' revenue, so it's the number that -- I mean, the percentage point that we raised prices at which might sometimes cause a bit of -- that the customer is a bit annoyed. So the most important part on raising prices is to really explain why we need to increase prices. It's more regulation and so on. But again, a couple of percentage points higher than inflation, I would say.

Great. Next one is churn in the quarter back to normal and just the LTM figure is still kept upwards by AD OPUS and the web-based clients churning in Q1? Yes, I would say so. The churn we had in Q3 was quite limited and in line with what we have seen in the previous years. So the main part of this SEK 9 million or 3% that we showed is basically related to this churn we saw in the beginning of the year. Next one. Last quarter, you won a public client in VGR. Is there any comments you could give about this -- the potential in this region in the public space? I guess maybe you are talking about MedTanken, which is a private provider, but it's still in VGR.

Yes. So in VGR, we still have like a bit dampened. So we have many customers who want to change the Webdoc, I would say, VGR still. We have the customer MedTanken that still do it now, and we have some other discussions that I think might go that way, not of the same size, [indiscernible], but still good contracts. I feel -- it's not a fast-moving business and if there is some insecurity on the horizon as there are -- there is in VGR, then you are a bit extra slow. And it's always easier to not do anything than to do something. And given the nature of this industry, that's -- we really need to push them, and we need to explain to them, and we need to show them it is not very hard. It's not that difficult. That's my experience when I was on the caregiver side. You will be a bit afraid of changing EHR systems. But when you did it, if you did it to a good system, the staff was happy and you hardly saw any effects in the P&L for a change. It didn't really cost you very much. And then thereafter, it's a positive. So that's the story we want to tell and what we're pushing. But -- then you have news like Millennium where one feel, oh, it's really difficult to change system. And that's just if you do it wrong. So we need to continue to push that, do testimonials on it, and then we'll continue to move. There's nothing really that should hold them back as I see it.

How -- next one, how high are the prices for the German clients now? And when you compare to Webdoc in Sweden, will this change once you move them to Webdoc X? And how do you approach pricing while shifting them to a new system?

So in general, German doctor has quite a lot more revenue than Swedish doctor per doctor. They see more patients and they are better paid. So the prices in Germany for doctors are a bit higher than Sweden. For therapist, I would say it's maybe a bit lower than Sweden in general. It's difficult to just say like-for-like. But what we'll do is when you move from on-prem to cloud, we have seen in the past that we can roughly double the revenue on that customer. So that's what we're looking for. But the most important is to move the customers over and to really have that happening. But both in Norway and Sweden, where we moved customers from on-prem to cloud, we have been able to roughly double the revenue, and that's also because the customer can get rid of a lot of old costs that they don't need anymore. And in general, the prices are a little bit higher in Germany. So I think that's a good basis.

Okay. Next one, how much is the Volvat project affecting the miss in revenue? Or how much -- where you could have used personnel for other revenues instead? Yes. I would -- to explain a bit, we -- basically, all the staff in the Metodika product is focused on the Volvat side and this is the only part of the business where we normally charge for consultancy development, et cetera. So in a normal year, before the Volvat project, we had around SEK 10 million in consultancy revenues in that business area. And this year, it will be -- if we succeed in Q4 with having these implementations, it will be SEK 3 million to SEK 4 million less than '23, and we have a bigger staff. So I mean, after that project, we have potential to increase the revenue again. But on the other hand, we are more recurring revenue and product focused. So that is an important use of the staff's time as well. But we will have a big swing in the profitability in that business area after the project is done because we get the recurring revenues from the contract when it's live and also we can generate more consultancy revenues as well.

And also in general, we are giving large rebates and really lowering cost of implementation work and similar things and instead trying to have a higher price level on the systems on a yearly basis or a monthly basis, depending on the structure of the contract. And this do hurt us short term, and it's the same with this Volvat, it's just in a bigger scale than most smaller customers. But in the end, that's where we're moving towards. And when you take away [SEK 1] in consulting revenue, you don't get [SEK 1] extra ARR. You get maybe like [SEK 30] ARR. So -- but over time, that gives us a much better position. So we're really trying to move that way. And that's the second reason for doing that. And that's because we want to have really low hurdles to moving into our products. So having a big upfront cost is not a good thing if you want customers to change to your system. So we're moving in that direction a lot, and we'll continue to do so.

Next one. On Webdoc, your predecessor often talked about Webdoc being the go-to EHR system when starting a new clinic in VGR. Has this started to be the case also in Stockholm? Or do they still prefer TakeCare?

So no, it's not the case in Stockholm yet. So in Stockholm, everyone knows TakeCare. That's where the system, almost all of them already is working in. Many of them still don't really know that they can take [indiscernible] system that there is another good system or a much better system there. So we really need to continue to work that. The customers that use Webdoc in Stockholm are really happy. And there are so many advantages of using Webdoc compared to TakeCare, and those advantage will increase over time. TakeCare is a system that will close down in roughly 2030. So I mean, it's a limited amount of [dormant] going on there also. So the difference will increase over time, but it's already there. So really, what we have to do is to just get the word out there much more and we need to continue working those customers. We're doing a lot of events. We're doing a lot of marketing. If you sit on a clinic that have TakeCare today, you see a lot of ads when you're surfing on the web, for example, for Webdoc. So we're doing as much as we can. But still -- so how to put the words -- when you're starting a new clinic, if you don't think very much, then there is a choice just to go with TakeCare because that's what you used to. So we really need to continue pushing that narrative, and that's why it's important to take each customer and each customer then talk to another couple of customers and then we continue to grow. I think we're doing good inroads, and we continue to make them and the advantage we have will only increase over time.

Okay. Final question we have received there is, could you talk about what you see in terms of efficiency improvements in development, thanks to AI?

Yes. I think that's a really exciting topic. There is quite a big things. I mean, most of our costs are development of our products. We have AI improvements also in other areas, but I think that's what these ones are really good at is helping you to write code or writing code themselves. And we are implementing it and have implemented it for quite some time in most of our products. You get efficiency gains of, I think, at the moment, we are -- it's difficult to exactly measure. I think we're at like around 50% to 60%, which is a lot. But I also think that what this will lead to is that all products moving faster. So I don't think it can be used to save a lot of costs. I think it's more that we will develop our products much, much faster going forward. That's what happens in -- with present big leaps in efficiency gains is that we just get better products, you get more products and so on. I think it's the same with this. So we do not plan to use those gains in lowering costs. We're planning to use in our products moving faster because standing still when it gets cheaper to develop is not a good option, I think. So -- but it do require us to do many things quite differently. We need just to continue developing our processes and so on to make sure that we use the efficiency we can gain from AI as much as possible. What part that holds us back somewhat is that our systems are really mission-critical for our customers. If our customers cannot access their system, if there's something problem with the systems, they cannot work. So we need constant uptime. We have 24/7 surveillance on our systems, where people standby fixing the systems at any point during the day and night and the weekend. So we cannot have the AI producing a lot of code that we really don't have an overview of. So we have to do it with quality, but that's the limitation we have. Apart from that, we have to use as much as possible and as efficiently as we can.

Okay. That was the final one.

So then I would like to thank you all for listening in this morning. If you have any questions, just reach out to us. Thank you so much.