Careium AB (Publ) (CARE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome to this Q4 and year-end presentation by technology-enabled care company, Careium. [Operator Instructions] Please join me in welcoming CEO, Peter Heuman; and CFO, David Granath. Welcome.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And by that, please go ahead with the presentation, and I'll be back for the Q&A.

Thank you very much, and thank you, everyone, for joining this year-end report and quarter 4 for 2025 for Careium. So I'm Peter Heuman. And when we stand here today with this report, I have been the interim CEO here for almost 6 months. And for closing the year, that was around my 4 months mark. Before we go into the presentation, I just want to give you a little bit of reflections here after I started and after this initial period. And it might be perceived as a little bit of a mixed result in this report. But I want to tell you that during this first initial period, I've done a lot of analysis, et cetera. I've been to most of the markets. I met customers, partners, our organization. I also want to emphasize that even though you see in the report that there are room for improvement, I have also found a lot of great assets. Just to give you an example, a large portion of the revenue in this company is based on long-term contracts with solid customers. That's a very positive thing for a company like Careium. So even though there is a little bit of a mix in the result, I think you should also bear with you, there are some strong fundamentals in the company as well. Having that said, I think we will move on into the quarter 4 presentation. So if we look at -- start with some of the highlights, you can see that we have a positive development on the net sales. And if we adjust for the currency headwinds, it's a growth of around 6.3%. That's one of the positive marks in this report. Strong cash flow, important for this business, I think, and it's a very good and comparing with last year, almost a doubling of the cash flow during quarter 4 for 2025. I will further go in later on here when we talk a little bit more in detail about the sales and the mix of product sales and services sales, but you can see that there is a slight growth in the product sales, and we are on similar levels on the services sales. The EBIT is, of course, pressured under this quarter, and we will come back and David will provide a little bit more details around it. And another highlight is that was presented during quarter 4 is that the company will have a permanent CEO starting here in quarter 2 in Tove Christiansson. So with that, let me continue with a little bit more details around the sales. So as you can see from the report, overall in quarter 4, net sales increased with around 1%. But like I said, adjusted for currency, 6.3%. So the underlying growth, I think, is fairly decent. You will see in more detail later on as well that we have some headwinds also from this historic financial lease corresponding revenues from previous years. So underlying, it's actually even better. The service sales decreased slightly. I would say it's on similar levels, and the underlying part is actually having positively as well. And there is an increase in product sales, which covers up a little bit of that small decrease compared to the services sales. And overall, gross margin is on similar levels, I would say, as comparing with quarter 4 last year. But if we look at the total 2025 gross margin is up compared to last year. So overall, I think the -- both for the quarter and in particular, for the year, both the net sales and the gross margin is heading in a decently positive direction, which is very, very good. Then if we move on, and I will try to provide you a little bit of more insight into the main markets for Careium. So if we start with the Nordics, you can see that net sales has increased with 7%. But adjusted for -- because it's in this market, we have had the historic financial lease revenue or net sales classification historically, which is what me and David and the Board has now tried to clean out of this company to make it more transparent. If you look at adjusted also for financial lease, the Nordics is actually growing with 25%. And I think that's a very solid number. This is partly also driven by a good growth in Norway. Services amounted to SEK 93 million approximately and product sales slightly below SEK 8 million. Gross margin in the Nordics during the quarter did also increase from 35%, 36% level up to close to the 40% level. So it's heading in a positive direction. And hopefully, we can see that improve even further going forward when we have the full effect of these, for example, new contracts in Norway. Then if we go to one of our largest markets, the U.K., I would say that the net sales is on similar levels. And adjusted for currency, it's a slight growth underlying here. Services sales decreased somewhat, while product sales increased. But -- and the gross margin is a little bit under pressure here. I remember from last time, we got a question about the services sales in United Kingdom. I have looked into that during my initial period here. And yes, there were some large contract that was lost, I think, more than a year ago, but the operation is doing a great job, and I start to see positive traction and especially now looking quarter-to-quarter where they are growing with almost 6%. So it's starting to cover that one with new services contracts, and I have good faith in that, that's going to continue going forward. There is a slight gross margin pressure in U.K. I will talk a little bit later about the closure of the analogue telecom communication services in U.K. that is planned. And I think here, there's some large volume opportunities from a product perspective, but we might be slightly pressured in that competition for a limited amount of time. So I think that was some of the main markets, Nordic and U.K. If I continue to somewhat smaller and more emerging markets for Careium, we have in the Netherlands, I would say, one of -- in my perception, one of the most stable markets for Careium, where we see a slight growth. I think the main takeaway here is that our team in the Netherlands managed to keep a very good gross margin on an above-average level for Careium overall, which provides a great contribution. If you look at the full year in the Netherlands, we also saw a slight growth of revenues down there. Then if I continue with other markets, which is primarily Germany, France and et cetera, net sales in the quarter was somewhat, I would say, on par with last year. But also here, which is very product-driven, I'm impressed with the gross margins that the operation can provide, which also contributes then in a positive way into Careium overall. But if you look at the full year for these markets, we can also -- they have also provided growth. So all in all, a few very stable markets with great margin generation and overall, similar levels or so on the top line. But I think contributing to some of the positives in the report, considering both net sales cash flow and gross margin. With that, I will hand over to David, who will guide you a little bit more in detail about the profitability and the cash flow. So over to you, David.

Well, thank you, Peter. And now a short update on the profitability for the quarter. EBITDA amounted to SEK 27 million compared to SEK 44 million in the same period last year, reaching an EBITDA margin of 11.7%. EBIT was SEK 11 million in the third quarter compared to SEK 26 million last year, giving an EBIT margin of 3.6% compared to 11.6% last year. As Peter mentioned before, EBIT for the quarter was affected by, I would say, increased headcount in sales and development during the year. We have disposed of some assets, and we have some initial initiatives for future efficiency, I would say. And with that, moving on to the cash flow. As we see cash flow is one of our key metrics. We have increased the transparency in the cash flow statement in the report. So there, you can see that the cash flow from operating activities amounted to SEK 69 million in the fourth quarter compared to SEK 35 million for the same period in 2024. Investments amounted to SEK 39 million and almost doubled compared to last year. This increase, as I mentioned before, is driven by tangible investments due to less contracts being classified as financial lease. So both the cash flow from operating activities and the investments are impacted by the financial lease that's disturbing the comparables a little bit. But on the free cash flow, I'm pleased to see that we managed to get SEK 30 million, driven by improved working capital. The cash was SEK 55 million, and net debt was SEK 155 million at the end of the year. And the Board will not propose any dividend for 2025 as we are building up resources. And with that, I hand over to Peter for some annual summary and concluding remarks.

Thank you, David. So if we -- if I should try to summarize the year, even though I haven't been part of the full year, I think some of the positive and best takeaways from my perspective would be that the overall net sales of SEK 854 million versus SEK 870 million adjusted for currency, it's still -- it provides still a growth. However, if we look at net sales and also the headwind the company had from the financial lease, the net sales actually grew almost 10%. So I think there is -- it is a little bit disturbing to compare from previous year. This is going to improve a lot going forward for Careium, but you should -- the takeaway should be that the company grows almost 10% during 2025 on net sales, and I think that's strong. On the EBIT level that David described, overall over the year, SEK 49 million versus SEK 84 million. And that's, of course, also with the explanations that David provided, me stepping in here, as you see in quarter 4, I am part of affecting this, and we mentioned part of the reasons in the report, some of the initiatives, there are room for improvement. And we can explain that even further in the Q&A, would there be any questions about it. Free cash flow, very positive, very good job in quarter 4 by the team. And over the year, it has increased as well. So I would say 2025 was -- it's a little bit tough to compare, but takeaway is that there's a strong growth, almost 10%. So sales are higher, gross margin is higher, and there is an improved cash flow. Those are the positive takeaways from my perspective of Careium 2025. Now I think we have an end slide here at the end, where we just summarize and I will speak a little bit about these initiatives going forward. So if we take some of the positives, so there is a good net sales growth underlying here. Product sales has continued to grow in this quarter, and there is an improved cash flow. So some of the challenges that we saw and that I faced in -- for Careium during quarter 4 is what I mentioned there about U.K., and I hope that's going to be more of a -- not a long term, but rather a short-term perspective with the transitions going on in U.K. We have a somewhat -- for being such a large market for Careium, I think we have had a little bit of a gross margin challenge there that we have put our teams on really monitoring going forward. We do, for sure, see that we have a short-term negative pressure on our EBIT. That's a challenge for the company. And despite growth in product sales, we were actually expecting a little bit more here in quarter 4. And hopefully, we're going to bear the fruit of that going forward. So if we look on the last bullet here or column, quarter 4 priorities ahead. So as you could see in the report, I do mention that there are some room for improvements. That has to do with providing a scalable modernizing of our technology a little bit from all these historic acquisitions and how we can do that in an improved way. You might have seen that we have made some changes here in management, in CTO organization. We have a plan for it. We have started and initiate a positive transformation here. I think that's going to help Careium in a very positive way in the long run. Also due to the historic buildup of Careium, which is based on historic acquisitions. I have clearly in the analysis, seen that we can find and build a somewhat improved structure of capital, align our processes and different market operations in a more efficient and modern way. I think this will provide long-term efficiencies for Careium, perhaps a little bit of a short-term pain, but I think it's going to be well worth it for the long run for Careium in running a more efficient operation. I also believe, and we are mentioning in the report that some of our market offerings, how we become more customer-centric, stay even closer to our customers, especially now with these new technologies, AI and things like that, that -- and the digitalization of many markets who have not come as far as maybe some of the Nordic markets. I think that's going to be a key, and we have initiated some programs in the company to improve that as well. Even more short term or going into here now in 2026, we have put a focus on reaping the benefits of the closure of the analogue telecommunication infrastructure in U.K. That has been planned by U.K. before, but it looks much more likely that it's happening now, and we are gearing up. And I think that's what you see part of the OpEx increase that has started already before I got in here. Part of that is in sales, particularly then, for example, in U.K., but that's to try to reap the fruits out of this potential product increase in the market in one of our larger markets. Earlier and before I started, I have also found that there has been quite a lot of communication about some new products, more software-related products. I call it Care platform. We have taken some actions here as well to really accelerate that. And I hope even while I'm here that I'm going to be able to come back and provide even more input on the status, but I start to see some positive signals there from the market related to these products. So I think that kind of summarize a little bit of some of the main positives, a little bit challenges and what we are focusing on ahead. So I think we should stop there and be open for questions.

Thank you so much, Peter and David, for the presentation, and we move over to the Q&A. We will welcome the first equity analyst, that is Fredrik Reuterhall, analyst at SEB. Please welcome and go ahead with your questions.

So my first question is around the initiatives that you're launching here, and I would like to understand a bit more what is happening here. You list 3 initiatives, modernizing your tech, improving your structured capital and improving the product offering. So if we start with the first one, I mean, modernizing the tech stack, it sounds like a long and pretty costly project, to be honest. So what can you tell me about that one? What are you doing?

Yes, I will try to guide you and everyone a little bit at least. So being here early in and trying to see how we can get the full potential out of Careium in a smart and modern way. We report on products and on services. But all our products that are linked to an alarm center, they are also carried by a fundamentally important software stack. That software stack based on that Careium is built out of several different historic acquisitions requires according to me, some kind of -- a little bit of a modernization where we can use -- do some improvement. There's a little bit of -- it's easy to step in and say that there's legacy, but there is clearly room for improvement in making that modern, structuring up so the whole platform that most of our offerings are based on becomes more aligned with all the different operations. My analysis, I think we can do this in a very reasonable amount of time. I don't foresee large heavy cost burden for a long, long time. I think it's very reasonable. We have a new CTO in place. He's already working on it. We have some good staff. And with his leadership, I'm pretty sure that he can do a very good job here going forward.

And you mentioned the first half year 2026. But do you think you will be done after 6 months or...

Technology projects normally takes a little bit longer time. The interesting question is, can we do it with the competencies we have, with the partners we have, et cetera, and how we are organized. I think we can utilize a lot of the good competencies we have with the new -- a little bit structuring this in different ways, aligning it in a better way, utilizing modern tools in an improved way. I think we can do a lot here. It's probably going to take a little bit longer, but we are catering for all these services while we are doing this. So it's going to run for a little bit longer than 6 months, for sure, but it's not going to be like a 3-year project or anything like that. That's going to be extremely costly. I'm not worried about that, Fredrik.

Okay. And you took some CapEx in the quarter for this already or...

Part of the -- I mean, we have done some management changes, things like that. And this is part of adding up to some additional cost in the quarter. But not CapEx as far as I know.

Okay. And where does the i-care initiatives fit into this? Is it a separate one? Or is it part of it or...

As far as I have understood, i-care is like a group name of all the offerings. If you are referring to a software platform, is that what you mean, the Care platform?

Yes.

Yes, that's part of this as well, absolutely.

Okay. Okay. And this improving your structured capital that is also part of this? Or is it something separate then?

We run that a little bit separate. That has to do with the history of several acquired companies, et cetera. This has to do -- my focus here is to try to align the different operations in more modern ways using technology, for example, you are linked to IT infrastructure. If you do this right, you can reap the benefit long term by running a more efficient operation.

Okay. But -- so I just understand, this will not -- you're not going to use any outside sources. So most of it is going to be within Careium?

Most of this has to do within Careium. It might be replacing some tools. It might remove duplicates due to several historic separate entities, just to find a modern way of running your operations, aligning your operation with modern tools that can make you more efficient. That's what it's about.

Yes. Okay. Then moving on a bit, I mean, your OpEx has continued to go a bit higher. And you mentioned that you hire salespeople. Can you talk about countries are you hiring in? And how many people are we talking about?

I mean we're not going into details on how many people. But I would say the increased focus in sales has been on the hiring side is in the U.K. and Germany.

Okay. Are you done there? Or are you looking for to hire more people?

No, I think we are at a good level right now.

Okay. Okay. Let's move on to the free cash flow that was very, very strong, very impressive. And I see, I mean, it was a large reduction in the working capital, very impressive. Can you talk about what work have we done there?

I mean we have done some -- most of the -- it's mainly done by the inventory and the accounts receivable. And I would say the accounts receivable has been a long work during the year on the processes and how we work with it. So I would say it's more kind of reaping the benefits of a long-term initiative, so to say, that we can see end of the year. Inventory is more kind of adjusting for -- I mean, it's back to the normal kind of planning, meeting the demand planning versus the sales planning and so on and be on top of that. So...

Okay. And I mean, according to my calculations, the sales outstanding is now down to 42 days, which is very good. Will you continue to improve this, do you think? I mean I know that in the beginning of 2023, it was down like 25 to 30 days. I mean do you think you can push it down lower or?

I would say it's a little bit dependent on the quarter. I see it more on kind of a long-term way of working with the receivables. I mean one change, as you can see in the cash flow is that we have an offering with some part payments with longer payment terms. Those are now visible in the financial assets, and you can also see them in the investments in the cash flow. So there are some -- some of the receivables are of a longer type character. But we -- I would say we still see some improvement, but I would say we are also at a fairly good level right now.

But we shouldn't expect this to go back up again above 50 days again or...

No, I wouldn't say so.

No. Okay. I have -- let's see, one last question. I mean, can you give some view on your competition developing in the different geographies? Do you see any players moving more aggressively than before? Or is it more or less the same? Or what is your take there?

I can try to give you a summarized picture, Fredrik, over -- from the time I have been here. I think if there's something I see from the Nordic market, from the U.K. market is that there are, in general, technologies that are modern, et cetera, that are coming in towards this area, and they are coming in, in different shapes and form. So I think it's about being very active with how you develop your services, what kind of technologies you are bringing forward towards your customer base. And I think -- so in general, it's how technologies in different ways can support the customers. We see some new entrants that might not have the whole service offering, but they come with soft parts or niche software solutions that can fit in and they try to get into the customer that way. So I think it's technology, software-enabled companies is something that I start to see stepping in from a little bit different in different markets, but I think that's a general kind of theme that you get the feeling for when you're out there in the different markets.

Okay. So no new players that moving forward aggressively.

But there can be some of these smaller niche software companies who are trying to aggressively go in towards certain segments or certain categories of the traditional telecare, for example. So that's what you need to look out for or learn from and adapt and become better.

Thank you, Fredrik Reuterhall, SEB, and we will soon have the next one. But first, let me pick one of the questions from the viewers and it reads as follows. You described the impact of this new lease accounting as the year-end -- year-on-year difference in financial leases. Has the number of lease contracts increased or decreased compared with last year?

We are on similar levels as last year.

And by that, let's welcome Alice Beer of ABG Sundal Collier.

Just going to start on the cost base. Could you help us navigate through these different mentioned negative effects? What are the biggest impacts? And what is sort of sustainable going forward? Or is there anything that can be almost considered a one-off?

Yes. I mean we have deliberately not talked about one-offs in that way for the quarter. I mean, we have initiatives that we have done. But I would say roughly SEK 5 million to SEK 10 million, I would say could be of a one-off character. But otherwise, we -- I mean, we prefer to run the business as is and take the cost as is. But around that number, I would say.

Yes. No, I can appreciate that. Would you say that that's sort of -- is that due to these Norwegian contracts heightened costs? And could that -- will that continue into Q1?

I mean for the Norwegian business, we see that it's still in the kind of ramp-up phase and that will continue, I would say, until April or so. After that, it's going to be more on the kind of continuous running operations. And then it will go over several years. But Q1, I would see some margin pressure as well on the Norwegian business. But hopefully, from Q2 and onwards, it will be better.

Okay. And this -- the phasing out of these outdated assets, will you continue to do these? And what exactly are these? And what's the impact?

I mean it's a review of the fixed asset register. And if we have deemed that these are assets that is no longer active. We're not at the customers. We have disposed them, so to say. And we will continue to do that, of course. I mean we are running a leasing business. So I mean, products go back and forth to the customers. So it's more on kind of maintaining that. I don't see any near-term effects of that. I mean we have done some now in the quarter, and we'll continue to review it. But I mean, again, we have done it now, so...

Okay. And then just a final mention on this. What would you say that you have the most least visibility on these short-term elevated costs? Is there anything that you know will not continue after Q2? Or is there anything more sort of variable?

Yes. But I think if I try to say something here, David, if you look at it and like we write in the report, during 2025, there has been a focus on investing in some more R&D staff, plays quite well with what I have stated here earlier of working on the modernization of technology. And another important part is investing in sales staff. They have done that. I think we see the full cost of that starting to hit in quarter 4, but that is related to the potentials that the company have seen in, for example, U.K., Germany. We better make sure that we can follow this, we can monitor this now. I have understood since I got in the reasons for it. Now we better monitor whether we are reaping the fruit out of these possibilities or not. That's one important part. And to David's point, there are -- so when I step in, we start together to look through the company, what are the improvement areas, et cetera. We have taken some kind of classical one-offs. I would say in different companies where I have been, there is no major, but they have added up in the quarter. Part of them are more onetime character. David mentioned a number here. I do also believe that some of these initiatives might pressure us a little bit. That's why we write going forward that first quarter 1, quarter 2 can follow some pressure. I would put this in a little bit of short-term pain for long-term gain.

Okay. Yes. Got it. And then moving on then, you did not provide any guidance for 2026 and mainly commented on the margin pressure in H1. But could you talk a bit about the market and your general outlook on the underlying performance that is not related to investments?

You mean going forward or reflecting on '25?

No, going forward. I mean you talked a bit about the U.K., but if you could comment a bit about the Nordic markets.

Yes. But the -- so investments the company had done before I started here that we now see in quarter 4 by the reasons that I understood related to, for example, possibilities in Germany, possibilities in U.K. There are also a lot of activities in Norway. You see in the report that we are growing in Norway, have already secured large contracts. So I think the company is growing. We have now been sitting with the budget for this year. And I have good faith in that we are in -- from a net sales perspective in a positive momentum, and we can monitor it going into 2026 now.

All right. And then you also mentioned being an active part in the market consolidation, so potential M&A then. Are you in a position to do acquisitions at the same time as taking this higher cost base short term?

Yes. Let's try to put a balanced answer in here. I think there is, for sure, in the long term, a possibility to take part of a consolidation in this market. It might be very beneficial. I do believe, and you can read that through the lines in the report, there's a little bit of improvements here from the historic acquisitions. If we can get them and bear the fruit of them, implement them, then I think Careium will be very well positioned to take part of it. Maybe a little bit early just at this stage with respect to what we are now initiating and improving, if that's a kind of balanced answer.

Yes. Okay. And then the number of connections showed an increase for the first time in a long time. Are you done with the old phasing out of these unprofitable contracts? Or how should we perceive that?

I mean, I would say, [ Daniel ] I think you're referring to the U.K. I mean, I would say in the U.K., looking quarter-on-quarter on the service sales, I see that we have a kind of steady growth now. I would say, looking at service sales, there is more kind of 2 outlying quarters. It's the Q4 last year and Q1. I think we mentioned in Q1 that we did an accrual on the SIM revenue. So I would say those are more of the outlining. That's why we also refer a little bit to the quarter-on-quarter increase. So yes, we are winning contracts in the U.K., and we see positive momentum.

Okay. And then staying on the U.K., just could you shed some more light on the gross margin development? When you say that it's pressured due to competition for a limited amount of time, what does that entail limited amount of time? Is that a few months? Or is that maybe the entire year? Or what do you see there?

I'm going to be a little bit careful with specifying it, but it has to do with the phaseout of the analogue telecommunication there, which provides us and others with a great possibility to reap the fruits out of gaining market share from a product perspective. I do believe that, that might lead to -- because it's such a fundamental shift in the country to some margin pressure, preparing for it, putting your feet in there already being in dialogues, doing some of these deals, seeing what's going on. It's quite likely. I believe the upside for Careium is that is a very product-driven shift, but Careium also has its own alarm center, the connection between those products to our own services that can then later become a services sales. So I think there might be mainly on the product side, a little bit of a margin pressure. That's hardware, but I think the positive for Careium is that we could follow up with service-related sales. So the better we do on the product, the more likely we can also increase even further on the services side.

Yes. And to add to that, I would say the comparison number for the gross margin in U.K. is more on the yearly side. We have had some quarter-to-quarter effects on the gross margin. So the yearly gross margin is a better comparison of what we see going forward.

Yes. Okay. And then just a final question, more of a detailed one. You stopped reporting EBITDA in the quarter and did not specify the split between depreciation and amortization. How much amortization was there in Q4? And will you continue to not report EBITDA?

I mean EBITDA was -- it's reported in the same way. We just changed the name of it because it has -- it's basically EBIT adjusted for acquisition-related amortizations. And then we have not added EBITDA again. So there are amortizations again on the intangibles. Those have not been in historically. So it's the same number we're reporting on. It's a name change.

Okay. Thank you so much, Alice Beer of ABG Sundal Collier for your questions. And as always, you have a very engaged investor group. So there are a lot of questions. What are the main costs that are lowering the profit this quarter?

I think we've answered that already.

There are a lot of questions around that. OpEx increased with almost SEK 20 million in the quarter. I understand that this is an effort of integration activities. Can you specify how large costs that are related to these activities?

I think that's what David mentioned a little bit before. We said 5% to 10%, but there's also more of a onetime character in there. So -- but the recurring part of a little bit somewhat higher run rate, so to speak, from an -- has to do with the staffing of sales and R&D that we see right now. And the other parts are more of the initiatives or more of a onetime character.

Yes. And how do you mean that you want to be a modern European health tech company? Is it not better to keep the division decentralized? It's not a question. It's more like an opinion.

Yes. But become a modern, I haven't I have only -- we have been writing that we want to better align. It goes both for our offerings as well as how we run our operation in an efficient way. How far we distribute the P&Ls, et cetera, that's something else.

It's a related question. Will the separate markets be negatively impacted by -- will sales department have their hands tied if you want all of Careium to use the same model for sales, et cetera, not letting them stay decentralized.

I'm not going into that dialogue because I don't think we have decided exactly to what level you distribute or not distribute the way you run the operation in modernizing this.

Yes. We move on to the R&D that increased with 40% in the quarter and to the comparable quarter increased by 79%. Have Careium been underinvested? And will this trend continue going forward?

I would say -- and I mean, during the year, we have said that we have been underinvested in the R&D. So that's why we have been investing in during 2025. I see we probably need to continue a little bit during the year. And as Peter said, I mean, most of it we will probably do with the existing kind of organization, but a few additional investments. And then, of course, it's year-on-year effects and stuff like that. So -- but I would probably see a little bit more investments.

Thank you. And can the headcount increase be quantified? Additionally, will the impact from onboarding the Norwegian customer be as significant in Q1 as it was in Q4?

I think we answered on that a little bit already. I mean we are thinking about maybe adjusting the headcount reporting a little bit. I mean, our headcount is very heavily impacted also by our delivery organization, our alarm centers. So perhaps in Q1, we will separate that out and report that separately as well.

Okay. Thank you. And the question goes on, what part will the new Chinese owner play in the Board? And how are they related to Careium in the value chain? And what do they want -- have they communicated that they want to move the company in any direction?

I think that's something that, that question should be put to the Board. Me and David don't decide who's the owner of a public company. So that question should probably be put to the Board.

And I think it's not in the Board. They're part of the Nomination Committee.

Were the one-offs significant in the quarter? And could you please help us understand what would be the normal cost level for Careium, any clues would be helpful.

Yes. I think we've provided the clues we are providing for this.

Okay. Now that was actually all the questions. So we will sum it up. And thank you so much for joining us today and good luck going forward.

Thank you very much.

Thank you so much.