Carmila S.A. (CARM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Carmila's 2022 annual results presentation. Let's get started with some key metrics and this year's achievements. It has been a successful first year for the Building Sustainable Growth strategic plan. Let's look at how Carmila performed this year. Retail sales continue to improve. They are now above the level of 2019, and were up plus 106% in December, which is a very important month for our tenants. The good leasing momentum continued after a record 2021. Occupancy is at a record level and rents are affordable, supporting the pivot to new concepts and services. The like-for-like appraisal value of assets is up plus 1%. And finally, rent collection and financial performance have rebounded faster than expected post COVID. That is why recurring earnings per share up plus 26% versus 2021. Turning to the next slide and the first targets announced at the Capital Markets Day. Carmila is ahead of schedule on the first milestone of the plan. We initially expected recurring earnings to gradually normalize by 2023. As I just mentioned, recurring earnings per share are well above the target 1 year earlier. We also announced an asset rotation program with a target of EUR 200 million of disposal by end 2023. As of today, we have signed or closed EUR 240 million of disposals. Carmila's dividend policy is a minimum of EUR 1 per share and a target payout of 75% of recurring earnings. I'm very happy to announce that the 2022 dividend to be proposed to shareholders will be EUR 1.17 per share in cash, well above the EUR 1 floor. Maintaining a strong balance sheet is a management priority. We have reduced leverage with an LTV ratio down at 45.8%. And finally, the planned growth initiatives are on track to deliver a contribution of EUR 30 million by 2026. We have also made several important announcements with these results. On asset rotation, we are now targeting an additional EUR 100 million of disposals by end 2024. We are launching a new EUR 20 million share buyback program, and on the outlook for 2023, we expect recurring earnings per share of EUR 1.57, that means organic growth of plus 8%. Now on Slide 6. Energy transition and funds transparency are at the heart of Carmila's strategy, Building Sustainable Growth. Carmila is on track to meet its goal of net zero Scope 1 and Scope 2 emissions by 2030. We are accelerating investment in energy efficiency from 2023 to reduce energy consumption in our centers by 40%. And we have begun compensating emissions by investing alongside local farmers to finance their energy transition. Carmila wants to be a leader in this area and to go beyond regulatory requirements. Concretely, that means best-in-class nonfinancial reporting. On BREEAM certification, 97% of assets are certified. Carmila is also a responsible employer and focused on diversity. We have improved our gender equality index to 95. Carmila Centers are also an important part of local communities, which means that they act as a hub for local jobs events. Turning now to trends in the retail sector. Retail is undergoing structural changes, but omnichannel is the winning model. Everyone has seen by now the correction in e-commerce last year. COVID has shown us that we do not want a fully online world. And retailers are looking to invest again in their stores to find the right balance between in-store and online. In 2022, we have seen many retailers reinvesting in physical stores. That is exactly what we are doing at Carmila with the omnichannel transformation of our centers, for example, helping retailers to manage their online presence and supporting footfall through targeted marketing of centers on social media. Now turning to a slide which I think is critical to our strategy. The mix of stores in our centers is changing. On this slide, you can see the chart that we always show investors. But this time, we have a change since 2017, the year of the Carmila IPO. We have already worked hard to adapt the mix and this work will continue. Two things stand out in what we are doing, changing the mix between different sectors, and within a given sector, refreshing the mix with new retailers. You can see on the chart, there is a big drop in the share of fashion, down from 37% to 31%. In favor of all the sectors such as gifts, beauty and, of course, health. On health, it is at the heart of the strategy because there is demand from customers. Carmila has a long-term strategy to bring more health care tenants to its centers with larger pharmacies, more opticians, hearing aid stores, doctors and dentists. Vertuo, a Carmila retail development partner has 15 dental centers with Carmila. By 2026, we are targeting 15% of the rental base from health care. For food and restaurants, innovative new concepts such as [indiscernible], which is another Carmila retail development partner has taken the place of former tenants. In 2022, this sector was more than 20% of new signatures. This gradual rebalancing of the mix takes time and will continue for several years. We have a clear vision on how we want to rebalance. There will be a bigger share of health care, less fashion, and more innovative brands and new concepts. Everyone is talking about purchasing power at the moment, the cost of living crisis. It is a priority for customers who I know. Our portfolio is particularly well suited to the current environment for 2 reasons. First is the Carrefour Hypermarket. It is the original discount format and a key component of Carrefour leading multi-format and omnichannel ecosystem. You will have seen Carrefour good results published this week. Second, moving to a medium-sized city is another way to improve your purchasing power on lifestyle. People want to live in places like North Toulouse or Málaga. Carmila Centers are convenient local leaders in midsized cities like this. Finally, I would like to briefly mention how Carmila plans to add growth to its resilient core business. With the new strategic plan, we announced 3 growth initiatives that will deliver EUR 30 million of incremental recurring earnings by 2026. First, the incubator. This year, the services provided to retailers through the incubator and omnichannel platform delivered a EUR 1.4 million contribution. On top of the positive impact on center from omnichannel marketing and new concepts, Carmila offered a platform of services, including franchise development, event, pop-up stores, and high-quality WiFi. Second, Next Tower. It is a mobile tower company that will have EUR 180 million of assets by 2026. As of end 2022, EUR 1.5 million of annual rent has been secured through 120 antennas in France and Spain. Third, Carmila retail development makes minority investments in new retail concepts. In 2022, the EBITDA of equity-accounted companies amounted to EUR 1.1 million, thanks to the successful development of the e-cigarette retailer, Cigusto. In total, Carmila Retail development has 15 partners with over 140 stores in Carmila Centers. Before I hand over, 2022 was a record year for Carmila. We are ahead of schedule on planned targets, and we are confident on the outlook because we have transformed our centers. I will now leave the floor to Sebastian to go into more detail on what is happening on the ground at Carmila.

Thank you, Marie, and hello, everyone. Let's look back on activity in 2022. But first, three major points on which I would insist in my presentation. First, retailer sales have recovered. Second, commercial activity is strong. And third, Carmila continues to invest and transform its center. Now look in more detail at footfall and retailer sales for France and Spain, which you can see on the chart. Footfall is lower than in 2019, but a higher share of visitors are making purchases and they are spending more per visit. Time spent in the center and the average number of stores visited has not changed. 49 minutes on average and 2.8 stores. We have also seen an increase in footfall from younger people, which shows that Carmila Centers have been able to adapt to this segment. Two interesting things to point out on retailer sales. The invasion of Ukraine seems to have had an impact in March, but retailer sales quickly bounced back to a higher level than in 2019. Then in October and November, you can see an impact probably from concern around the energy situation, but stronger retailer sales again in December. The overall message is that retailer sales are above the level in 2019. Now turning to commercial activity. After a record 2021, we have maintained a strong commercial momentum in 2022. More than 800 new leases were signed or 12% of the rental base. We have positive reversion for the full year plus 1.5% on average above the previous levels of rent. That positive reversion figure is on top of the indexation effect at the beginning of the year. The figures provided by Carmila for commercial activity are for long-term leases only. We haven't changed the policy on lease term or incentives. The financial occupancy rate of 96.5% is actually above the pre-COVID level and 20 basis points higher than at end 2021. Thanks to all the new business we have signed with retailers, financial occupancy is at its highest level since the creation of Carmila. Turning to the next slide. Commercial performance isn't just about signing as many leases as possible. The Carmila team is always looking to sign the right retailers, especially in priority sectors like health care and discount. The team worked hard to refresh the mix in centers and to meet the expectations of customers. Health care tenants are an established part of Carmila Centers. In 2022, Carmila signed 63 new health care tenants in France and Spain. Purchasing power is a big trend. Action and other specialized retailers in this segment opened new stores in Carmila Centers this year. We expect to take advantage of this trend in the current inflationary environment. In Food & Restaurants, the focus has been on finding interesting new concepts such as Thai street food with Pitaya or artisanal food from Comptoir de Mathilde. The pivot to a new mix merge has helped Carmila to outperform the sector in terms of footfall. Now on the next slide, let's talk about innovation and omnichannel services. As part of the incubator and omnichannel strategy, Carmila continues to develop its services to retailers. That includes support in their online presence management, the coordination of a network of active influencers, analysis based on customer data and targeted marketing. Brut. and Carrefour announced the creation of Brut.shop in February of last year. It is a joint venture dedicated to social commerce and live shopping. Carmila produced its first innovative content with Brut.shop in Q4. Carmila is also working alongside Carrefour to explore opportunities in the Metaverse. Over 100 DNVBs took part in the second edition of Carmila DNVB Ready competition. The first price was won by Merci Handy, which sells cosmetics made with naturally sourced ingredients. They will receive support from a team of professionals to set up a store or a kiosk in a Carmila shopping center. Specialty leasing and pop-up stores make centers more dynamic and generate significant additional revenue for the business. Now let's turn to the next 2 slides and talk about real estate development. That means major projects, but also the smaller agile transformation projects that are typical at Carmila. First, on the major projects. You will remember that Carmila has 5 major projects in the pipeline. Montesson, Orléans Place d'Arc, Antibes, Toulouse Labège, and Tarrassa. None of them are currently under construction. These projects have been reviewed and the planned investment has been significantly reduced. The total investment is now expected to be EUR 200 million versus the EUR 550 million announced in December 2021. This will include more mixed-use repurposing of the site, less retail and more housing. They must also meet Carmila's return targets and changing customer needs. The first major expenditure, around EUR 50 million a year, will not be before 2025. Now on the next slide, let's talk about smaller transformation projects. They help us to transform centers and to attract new resellers. We can do small development projects on car parks in partnership with Carrefour. The amounts invested are relatively limited and the investments are highly profitable. Several new development projects were delivered, including Holly's Diner Restaurant in Langueux and France. And we set up new midsized stores such as Normal and Action in [indiscernible]. On health care tenants, we have been creating new space for dentists and several pharmacy extensions were delivered. This project creates a lot of value, and we aim to continue to deliver them every year. Finally, on Slide 18, energy transition. The first thing to mention is that Carmila is participating in the effort to reduce energy consumption in the context of the European energy situation. We have committed to a 20% reduction this winter. On top of this special effort, Carmila is also accelerating investments to meet its energy transition targets. From 2023, we will step up investment to replace heating, ventilation and air conditioning, install LED lighting, and put in place better building management systems. Carmila will also benefit from Carrefour's rollout of electric car charging stations, which will be installed in all Carmila car parks by 2023. To sum up my presentation, it has been a great year in terms of operational activity, and there are a lot of positive indicators: high occupancy, strong commercial activity, recovery in retailer sales, and the delivery of many successful projects. I will now hand over to Pierre-Yves Thirion, Carmila's CFO, who will talk you through the financial performance and outlook. Thank you.

Thank you, Sebastian. Hello, everyone. I'm thrilled to present this good set of results. We have delivered everything that was announced for the beginning of the plan. Recurring EPS has rebounded faster. The balance sheet is strong. We have been very dynamic in asset rotation, and we are confident on the outlook. First, on the appraisal value of the portfolio on Slide 20. The increase in valuation is driven by the growth of the rental base, which more than offset the yield expansion. The valuation of Carmila's portfolio is up plus 1% on a like-for-like basis. The disposal of 6 assets in France was finalized at the end of June. The overall portfolio remains at around EUR 6.2 billion. Let's look in a little bit more detail at net potential yield and appraisal assumptions on Slide 21. The net potential yield of the portfolio increased by 19 basis points. It's not a surprise that cap rates have increased this year given the increase in long-term rates. Cap rates for retail assets were, of course, already significantly higher than for other real estate asset classes. The increase in appraisal values at end December 2022 was entirely driven by growth in the rental business. There is an indexation effect and we have been able to generate organic growth above indexation. For Carmila, the affordable level of rents and positive reversion make our appraisers more confident on the value of assets. Valuations are based on prudent rental growth assumptions, around 2%. And finally, transactions in the market, including Carmila's disposal of a portfolio, and now the signing of 2 disposals, all in line with the appraisal values show that you can be confident on the valuation of the portfolio. In the current environment, it is important to give some color on the outlook for rents and retailer occupancy costs. Firstly, Carmila rents are affordable, around EUR 260 per square meter. There is no pressure on our outlook for rent. The total cost including energy cost billed to tenants is also a consideration. Energy costs will increase this year, but tenants will benefit from energy efficiency measures and the energy prices that have been negotiated by Carmila and Carrefour. The occupancy cost ratio including both rents and other charges was 10.5% on average. It is actually around 50 basis points lower than in 2019. This is partly due to the increase in retail sales, but also because of the pivot of the mix merge to new concepts. On indexation in 2023, the increase has been passed on to tenants in the first quarter as usual with an average increase in rents of plus 4%. Turning to Slide 23 and the net rental income. It is higher than in 2019 and at a record level in 2022, up 16%. A large part of the increase is directly related to COVID effects. It also includes exceptional income of EUR 8 million from rents that we have successfully recovered from the COVID period. Rent collection is back at the 2019 level more quickly than expected. On top of that, there has been very strong organic growth. Organic growth in net rental income was plus 4%, of which an indexation effect of plus 3%. We have delivered the highest level of organic growth since the IPO of Carmila. On the next slide, you have the P&L line by line. As usual, I won't go through all of the details. The net rental income increased to record level. We have managed to reduce cost by charging more services to tenants as part of the incubator and the omnichannel platform strategy. EBITDA is up 20%. There is a limited increase in financing costs from the new term loan signed in July to refinance the September 2023 bond maturity. And finally, recurring earnings are up 26%. Now on Slide 25, you have the recurring earnings per share, up 26%, in line with the increase in recurring earnings at EUR 1.56 per share. As mentioned, rent collection is back to normal. There is positive indexation and we have generated organic growth on top of indexation. As mentioned by Marie, on the dividend, Carmila's policy is a payout of 75% of recurring earnings and a minimum of EUR 1 per share in cash. The dividend that will be proposed to the shareholder meeting in May will be EUR 1.17, well above the floor of EUR 1 per share. Looking at the outlook for 2023. There will be a positive indexation effect, approximately 4%. We are confident that rent collection will remain at the current level. There will be an impact from disposals. Overall, we expect recurring earnings per share for the year at EUR 1.57. If you strip out disposals and provision reversals, that corresponds to organic growth of 8%. Now on the balance sheet and starting with net tangible asset value per share. It stands at EUR 25.26 and is up 3%. There is a small impact from the increase in appraisal value of assets. Recurring earnings were EUR 1.56 per share, the dividend and the positive impact of the share buyback. Turning on to next slide and the leverage metrics. The LTV ratio is down 160 basis points. Net debt is around EUR 120 million over the period. Lower net debt was driven by earnings and asset rotation. The net debt-to-EBITDA ratio stands at 7.7x, down from 9.7x. That is among the best-in-class in the sector. Earnings have recovered and we have significantly reduced net debt. On liquidity and funding, the situation is also positive. Carmila has a strong track record and can raise long-term funding in the bond market. But in the current environment, bank loans are more attractive. In July, Carmila signed a new term loan for EUR 550 million at a spread of 180 basis points. The term loan was to refinance the bonds maturing in September 2023. In November, we bought back EUR 200 million of bonds in a successful tender offer. We now have enough cash on the balance sheet to repay the remaining amount at maturity. Cash is mainly invested in time deposits that pay the same level of interest as the bonds. The next bond maturity is not before September 2024. This means that no additional refinancing is needed until then. Bank loans will probably remain more attractive than the bond market. We are currently in discussion with partner banks on potential secured loan financing. The average funding cost is 2.2%, up 20 basis points since 2021 due to the new term loan. The average debt maturity as of today is 4.4 years. Carmila's BBB rating was confirmed by S&P in July and liquidity metrics continue to improve with a post-COVID recovery in financial performance. On top of that, the interest rate risk of refinancing in 2024 has been hedged through swaps and other derivatives. Carmila is 100 percentage in 2023, which means that there will be no impact from higher Euribor rates. I know that investors and analysts appreciate detail on CapEx. So I will briefly provide some figures. Maintenance and restructuring CapEx will be around EUR 50 million a year, with an attractive yield on cost for restructuring projects. Next Tower still represents, on average, EUR 13 million a year from 2023 to 2026. There will be no new net investments in Carmila Retail Development from this year. As mentioned, on major projects, works will not start until 2025, and the planned investment has been reduced from EUR 550 million to EUR 200 million. On top of that, we are accelerating investments to reduce the carbon footprint of Carmila with an additional of EUR 10 million a year. Now turning to asset rotation. We are implementing a more dynamic approach to capital allocation. Our strategy is to dispose of mature assets, which have pivoted to new retail concepts and have high occupancy. We reached 2 separate agreements with family offices at the beginning of February for the sale of a portfolio of 4 assets in Spain and an asset in France. We have taken advantage of the strong bid for smaller shopping centers in crowded local regions. Once this transaction closes, we will have gone beyond the target of EUR 200 million by end of 2023. We will have sold 11 assets for a total of EUR 240 million. We are now targeting an additional EUR 100 million of disposal by end 2024. Given our comfortable level of liquidity and leverage, we have decided to announce a new EUR 20 million share buyback. To wrap up the financial part of today's presentation, here are the main points I would like you to keep in mind. Carmila is ahead of schedule on the first milestone of the plan. The valuation of the portfolio is up year-on-year. The rebound in recurring EPS has been faster than expected. The asset rotation program has been successful. Leverage has been reduced with an LTV ratio at 35.8%. As a result of all of this, we are happy to announce that we'll propose to the Annual Meeting of Shareholders, an increase in our dividend of 17%. Looking to the future, we are confident and able to provide a clear indication for 2023. Recurring EPS is expected to be EUR 1.57 in per share. I will now hand over to Marie for the conclusion.

Thank you very much, Pierre-Yves. Just a few words to conclude today's presentation. 2022 was a record year for Carmila. It showcased the quality of the portfolio and the appetite of investors for transform assets encored in local regions. The strong performance metrics highlight the level of operational excellence. We are ahead of schedule on the first target of the plan. Clearly, the business is in better shape than in 2019. That means we are confident that we can continue to deliver a strong financial performance and that we are well positioned to take advantage of new opportunities. We are now available to answer your questions. Let's start the Q&A session.

Hello, everyone. We're going to start the Q&A session with one question from the room.

I have one question on your pipeline. Can you give us more color on why you decided to postpone it? Which project, and is it a sign that you are probably more cautious on the retail industry going forward? Or it's just more complicated to have building times today. That's my first one. And then you're planning to do EUR 100 million of disposals for the next 2 years. Do you consider being more opportunistic on acquisitions on the other side?

Thank you very much for your questions. So the reduction of our CapEx concerning our 5 major projects, it's clearly the sign of that a lot of things have changed in the last years. We still have 5 major projects. After a comprehensive review, we know that there will be less retail now in these projects, and they will be more oriented towards mixed use. There is less retail because a lot of things have changed, for example, clients' habits, retail, position of local officials, regulation, climate law, sustainability and so on. If I take, for example, the example of Antibes, the original project 4 or 5 years ago was to have a classic extension in the front of the shopping center of more than 20,000 square meters of retail. After discussion with local officials, we know that we cannot envisage such a project like now. And so there will be less square meter on retail, and we will do other things such as housing. That's why we decided to clearly say that our envelope of CapEx on these 5 big projects will be lower. I would like to add that we have also the 5 major projects. We have also smaller transformation projects, more than 30 transformation projects in 2023. And we have long-term mixed-use projects like in Sartrouville, which will have an impact at the end of the plan or later after 2026.

On the asset rotation program. So the idea is to continue on the asset rotation and what we want to do is to optimize capital allocation. So the use of proceeds of disposal will be development and potential acquisitions, shareholder return, and strengthening the balance sheet. So yes, we could look at opportunistic acquisition. We did one in Spain in Málaga this year and we could be interested for the next 12 months.

[Foreign Language]

So clearly, for us, we are the incubator. The incubator, it's [indiscernible] sale, service including online presence, franchise development, incubating online brands, targeting marketing, high-quality WiFi. With incubator, we have to provide EUR 10 million of recurring earnings in 2026, and we are on track to deliver it. No major investment associated to the incubator, because a lot of things have been already developed for this incubator. I don't know if I answered the question?

And on Carmila retail development. So the financial exposure is EUR 40 million. We have almost reached the EUR 40 million of exposure. So we won't have any other investments. We will stay on net zero investment from this year on that activity. We have approximately 15 partnerships. Some of them are more mature and the idea is to make some rotation when they get to their maturity.

I'll hand over to the moderator of the conference call to see if we have any questions on the call.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from the line of Stéphane Afonso calling from Invest Securities.

I think maybe the best way is to go through them one by one. So the first one on indexation. How confident are you by seeing all indexation for the current year?

Clearly, we are confident. Rents in Carmila Centers are affordable. We have 10.5% of occupancy cost ratio. In France, there is a cap on indexation at 3.5% for small businesses, which is 40% of Carmila business in France. And for 2023, indexation has already been passed in January. It means plus 4% on average in 2023. So we are very confident on this topic.

Okay. And also, could you give us more granularity on the OCR changing by sectors compared to 2019?

Versus 2019, you have seen that the OCR level has decreased. It stood at 11%, it's now 10.5%. So it's mainly driven by the change of the mix and the decrease of the exposure to fashion. If we look with a bit more granularity, what we can see is that it's pretty stable on most of the segments, maybe higher in the fashion and maybe lower in restaurants due to higher exposure to fast food, which generates more revenues.

Okay. And also, I understand that your occupancy rate was not impacted by [indiscernible] in 2022. What should we expect for 2023? And also, have you identified tenants that are at risk?

On occupancy, so it stands at 96.5%, up plus 20%. When we look, it already takes into account the closing of the Camaïeu stores. So regarding to procedures, we have no major impact, which will come in our rental base due to current processes. So the leasing activity has been strong, and we don't expect any decrease in the occupancy in the rental base. So I think it will be well-oriented in 2023.

Okay. And also regarding asset valuation, I assume that the experts have already taken into account most of the indexations to come, so could we expect for 2023 that the rent effect would be as supportive as it was in 2022.

Yes. Yes, the indexation, there is a clear tailwind from indexation, plus 4% in the rental base. I mean, organic growth is well-oriented. So clearly, the valuation should be supported by positive impacts on the rental base in 2023.

Okay. And finally, on your extension pipeline, what is the level of your hidden costs that you're targeting on the projects that you get on the pipeline? And also the hidden costs that you're targeting for the restructuring project?

It depends. For the pipeline in the major projects, I mean, our investment criteria is approximately 150 basis points -- yield on cost 150 basis points higher than the net initial yield of the developed projects. So that's for the major projects. And for the smaller restructuring projects, they are really attractive and the average yield on cost is around 10%.

Next question comes from the line of Allison Sun calling from Bank of America.

I have a similar question to the previous one. So just on the extension projects and the smaller scale restructuring projects, I appreciate you tell us your guidance on the yield on cost, but how about the profit margin? Has it changed significantly, especially when you're going to shift focus from the retail to more mixed use.

Okay, so we shared the objective in yield on cost. To talk about the margin on the retail parts, they have not significantly changed. Maybe there is a bit more pressure on the cost, but the rents are supported by global indexation and by growth. And regarding mixed-use projects, different kind of projects. We don't invest directly in mixed-use projects. We will be associated through joint venture for big transformation projects and just only with minority stakes. So we would not weigh the balance of those projects on our balance sheet, but the margin is a bit different on those projects.

The next question comes from the line of Pieter Runneboom calling from Kempen.

You said that you were looking at opportunities in the transaction market. What kind of yield are you targeting here?

Are you talking about the investment market?

Yes.

Yield would be attractive today for you in today's interest rate environment.

I think the Málaga, the center we acquired in Spain is a good example. But what we want to inquire is site that we can create value by pivoting to new concept, and typically, where there is also Carrefour hypermarket, because we know that we can create value on these type of assets.

There are no further questions, so I will hand you back to your host to conclude today's conference.

So we have several questions on the webcast, which I will now read out for you one by one. So the first question, you show on Slide 7 that e-commerce penetration has now returned to the long-term trend. Do you expect the pre-COVID trend now to continue at its pre-COVID rate?

Well, clearly, everybody has seen the correction on e-commerce sales last year. We are reverted back to a slower growth rate. It doesn't mean that it will not grow. Clearly, what we think is that omnichannel is the winning model and that retailers are investing again in stores. And the important thing is to find the right balance between online and offline. But I think that many retailers did find this right balance.

Thank you. Next question. Would Carmila be looking to monetize a stake in its tower portfolio in the future? Tower and antenna assets trade at high EBITDA multiples, looking at transactions from Cellnex and Vantage Towers.

I think it's a bit early to ask this kind of question. Now the focus is to develop the tower co., and we have a clear plan until 2026. After that, we could think of any evolution on this tower co.

And we have a final question from Florent Laroche-Joubert from ODDO BHF. He would like to know leasing activity, should we still expect positive reversion in 2023?

We don't feel any pressure on our rents. We explained that they were affordable, EUR 260 per square meter. The occupancy cost ratio is down, and we have positive reversion in 2022. So far, we expect the same trend in 2023.

Here we can emphasize on that we have many transformation projects, more than 30 this year, and this brings reversion as well.

So Florent actually had a second question, and we touched on the subject earlier, but the question comes from a slightly different angle. Have you met any retailers that could be considered to be in difficulty? And could you please give us an update on the releasing of previous Camaïeu stores?

Well, Camaïeu's all financial aspects have been taken on the account of last year. We had approximately 30 stores and releasing is in good way. So there will be no more impact from Camaïeu this year. And on the other procedure, there are 5 ongoing procedures clearly, and our exposure on the largest of the 5 is EUR 1.2 million. Just to show you that it's not -- of course, it's a concern, but it's not a big concern for Carmila, and I would like to also remind that we don't have any tenants with more than 2% of the rental base. I think it's important to remind that as well.

Great. Thank you. So we have no further questions from the webcast. So that is it for today's Q&A session. Thank you, everyone, for attending today's event, and I hope that you will have a very good day. Thank you. Goodbye.

Thank you. Goodbye.

Thank you for joining today's call. You may now disconnect.