Carmila S.A. (CARM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Carmila's First Half Results. A large part of my presentation today will be focused on the Galimmo acquisition. But first, some key figures from H1. Footfall and retailer sales have been continued to improve. Retailer sales are up 7% so far this year. Good leasing momentum has continued keeping occupancy above 96%. Appraisal values are down 0.6% on a like-for-like basis. Rent growth from indexation has largely offset the impact of higher discount rates. Recurring earnings per share are up 2.6%, driven by growth in rental income. And finally, maintaining a strong balance sheet is a key priority and means that Carmila can take advantage of growth opportunities. Turning now to the execution of Carmila strategy, building sustainable growth. The plan has put Carmila in a stronger position. The sale of a total of 12 assets for close to EUR 250 million has financed EUR 50 million of share buybacks while at the same time, strengthening balance sheet metrics. We have maintained solid fundamentals in the core business. That is because of the strategy to pivot the mix-merch carry out agile restructuring projects and develop growth initiatives with the Omnichannel incubator, Next Tower and Carmila retail development. We are confident on earnings growth because we have transformed our centers. The success of the plan has given us more financial flexibility and confidence that we can implement Carmila strategy across the Galimmo portfolio. Now let's go into more detail on the Galimmo acquisition. As many of you will have seen, on July 12, Carmila announced an agreement to acquire Galimmo, the owner and operator of 52 hypermarket and core shopping centers. The transaction was announced at the same time as Carrefour's announcement that they will acquire the full retail business of Cora in France. It is a major milestone for Carmila, and it builds on our experience in transforming sites alongside Carrefour hypermarkets. It is an ideal growth opportunity. Let's now look at exactly why the transaction makes sense for Carmila. Thirdly, it is exactly the kind of assets that Carmila knows how to manage and transform. Local leaders in midsized cities and convenience centers, we've the hypermarket encored. Carmila will be able to deploy its strategy and capitalize on the potential of the Carrefour Carmila ecosystem across a broader and complementary geographical footprint. From a financial standpoint, the transaction is also very attractive for Carmila. The structure of the transaction, 100% cash and the simultaneous deal with Carrefour, means that Carmila is able to acquire Galimmo at a 35% discount to gross asset value. It will be accretive to recurring earnings and net asset value from the closing with only a limited impact on Carmila's loan-to-value ratio. Pierre will provide more detail on the financial impact later in the presentation. Let's now look at Galimmo's portfolio on Slide 9. Above all, Carmila is acquiring a well-managed portfolio of attractive assets with a complementary geographical footprint. Galimmo Centers are mainly in the northeast of France where Carmila has relatively few assets. The portfolio was valued EUR 688 million as of end 2022. Most of the portfolio value comes from the 13 larger assets, of which you can see the top 5 on the slide. These top 5 centers, in particular, are leading local shopping destinations in midsized cities in the east part of France, such as Nancy, Strausbourg and Colmar. The portfolio is also made up of smaller convenience assets where traffic is almost entirely driven by the hypermarket. Carmila already owns many centers like this and knows how to manage a large number of smaller assets. Finally, the transaction timetable. It is relatively simple. The antitrust process, mostly linked to the Carrefour acquisition of Cora France is expected to be completed by the summer of 2024. Once all authorization has been obtained, Carmila will acquire 93% of the shares of Galimmo. This will take place at the same time as the closing of the acquisition of Cora France by Carrefour. The deal is conditional on the Carrefour Cora deal going ahead and will be followed by a mandatory tender offer on the remaining Galimmo shares. Now before I hand over. So far, in 2023, Carmila has continued to deliver a strong operating and financial performance and to deliver on its strategic objectives. That success will enable us to begin a new phase of Carmila's development with the acquisition of Galimmo. We will be available to answer your questions at the end of today's presentation, but for now, I will leave the floor to Sebastien to go into more detail on Carmila's operations.

Thank you, Marie, and hello, everyone. Before going into more detail on Carmila's operations, there are 3 key messages in this part of the presentation. First, retailer sales and footfall have continued to increase. Second, occupancy is high. Third, as Marie mentioned, Carmila is executing its strategic plan. That means transforming centers to maintain solid fundamentals. Now looking in more detail at footfall and retailer sales for France and Spain, which you can see on the chart. Footfall is up 3% for Carmila as a whole in H1 with a 2% increase in France, and 6% increase in Spain. Retailer sales were above the level of H1 2022, up 7% overall. You can see on the chart that May in France was a little bit weaker than in previous months, but retailer sales bounce back again in June. Some stores were affected by riots in France, but only a handful of Carmila centers were affected and they are quick to reopen. You can't see any impact in June footfall. The overall message is that footfall and retailer sales have continued to improve. Now turning to commercial activity on Slide 13. Strong leasing activity has continued. Carmila centers remain appealing to retailers. The level of France is sustainable and affordable. We continue to see positive reversion on top of indexation. The occupancy cost ratio of retailers stands at only 10.4% on average. Occupancy is close to a record level, above 96%. We have quickly replaced a small number of retailers who have closed because of financial difficulties. Finally, specialty leasing is a source of revenues but also a way to make our center more dynamic. We are bringing new concepts to centers. The main takeaway on commercial activity and occupancy is that the fundamentals of the business are solid. Turning to the next slide and Carmila pivot to a new mix of retailers. You can see a few examples in each sector with the usual mix of household names. There are 3 key messages on the merchandising mix. One, we are reducing the share of fashion retailers, but it will remain an important segment. Two, purchasing power is an important trend across all sectors: sport, food and restaurants, gift and leisure as well as with specialized retailers such as Action and TEDi. And three, we have continued to develop the healthcare segment with pharmacy expansions and projects to add up space in our centers to the needs of the health care tenants. You can also see on the slide that we have changed the split by sector because sport has become important enough to have its own category. It is another priority segment that Carmila is looking to develop. Pivoting the transition to new and innovative retail concept is a key pillar of Carmila's strategy. Turning to the next page. You can see 3 of Carmila's flagship assets in Spain. Spain is more than 20% of the total portfolio. All 3 of these regional shopping destinations benefit from the massive return of tourists to Spain. They have seen double-digit growth in retailer sales on a high single-digit increase in footfall so far this year. You can see on the slide that these are attractive, fully renovated centers with a lot of outdoor space. They are also located in dynamic tourist destinations Holea is near Sevilla, Fan in Magala and As Cancelas in Santiago De Compostela. Now on Slide 16, let's talk about innovation, marketing and omnichannel. I said in the introduction that one of the key messages of my presentation today is that Carmila is executing its strategic plan. As part of its incubator and omnichannel strategy, Carmila develops new services for retailers and end customers. From this summer, all retailers in Carmila centers in France will have access to a dedicated offer of high-speed Internet which we have called Fibre to the mall. The online second and marketplace Vinted plans to open click-and-collect lockers in more than 30 Carmila centers. Being part of the Carrefour ecosystem is clearly a strength for Carmila. Through the link with Carrefour Carmila benefits from access to leading international partners such as Disney. Brut Shop is another Carrefour partner. It is a joint venture between Carrefour and the leading European media company Brut. The joint venture creates online marketing content such as Carmila social meta campaign with former Miss France. Carmila's incubator and omnichannel strategy makes our centers more attractive for customers and retailers. Initiatives can be fully online, fully in-store or bots. Now let's turn to real estate development. For Carmila, that means agile transformation project, major retail focused projects and mixed use. Agile restructuring projects have always been a strength of Carmila. This year's projects include the transformation of part of the Vitrolles center in Marseille. There is an extended pharmacy, renovation and a project to add new restaurants. Around EUR 40 million a year of CapEx on highly profitable value-creating projects. Carmila also has a pipeline of 5 major development projects. Though the planned investment has been reduced and pushed back to around EUR 50 million a year over 4 years for 2025. Finally, on mixed use, you will have seen that Carrefour announced a partnership with Nexity for a series of urban mixed-use projects across 76 sites in France. 13 Carmila sites are concerned. These projects are developments on car parks and along the road on the center, which doesn't belong to Carmila. Carmila also has its own mixed-use pipeline, also in partnership with Carrefour as well as Altarea. There are 2 projects under development in Nantes and Sartrouville. Finally, turning to Slide 18 and energy transition. As a reminder, Carmila has set a target of zero net emissions on scopes 1 and 2 by 2030. We show some image on the slide of new heating and air conditioning, solar panels and electric charging stations at our Toulouse Purpan Center. All Carmila centers will have electric car charging stations by the end of this year. On Energy sobriety, we have also been active we kept energy consumption in France by more than 20% over the winter months, and the team won a price for the French electricity grid for its ability to cut electricity consumption at peak times. Before I finish, I would like to sum up what I have said on our operating performance. Carmila has continued to implement its strategy in 2023 with projects and initiatives to transfer centers and pivot to new concepts. The situation on the ground is good and business fundamentals remain solid. We remain focused on transforming our centers, innovation and energy transition. I will now hand over to Pierre-Yves, Carmila CFO. We will talk you through the financial performance.

Thank you, Sebastien. Hello everyone. Today, I will present another good set of results. We continue to deliver what we announced for the strategic plan. recurring EPS growth, a strong balance sheet and progress on asset rotation. First, on the appraisal value of the portfolio on Slide 20. On a like-for-like basis, the portfolio valuation is down 0.6% with growth of the rental base almost completely offsetting yield expansion, 4 assets in Spain and 2 assets in France were sold in H1 which explains the change in the energetic figure. The overall portfolio is valued at EUR 6 billion. As mentioned, the small like-for-like decline of the portfolio valuation was driven by yield expansion. You can see in the chart that the net initially decreased by an additional 12 basis points. That is a total increase of around 85 basis points since 2017. The increase in cap rates for retail assets started long before the increase in benchmark rates. For Carmila, the yield expansion has been almost entirely offset by growth in the rental base over the period. Over the past 18 months, that growth has been driven by indexation. Valuations are based on prudent rental growth assumptions of around 2%, in line with long-term indexation. So there were fewer transactions in H1 of this year than last year. Carmila has continued to sell assets, 6 in total, in line with appraisal values for a total amount of EUR 97 million. Turning to Slide 22 and the net rental income. It is a new record level for H1 and organic growth driven by indexation of 4.5%. That figure is adjusted for asset sales, mainly the sale of the portfolio for our assets in Spain. Rent collections also remains at a normal level, 95% in H1. And we expect the full year level to be the same as last year. On the next slide, you have the P&L line by line. I won't go through all of the details. The net rental income increased by 1.6%. Overhead costs are unchanged despite high inflation thanks to strict cost control. We continue to manage over at cost down by charging more services to tenants as part of the incubator and omnichannel platform strategy. EBITDA is up 2.4%. There is again a limited increase in financing costs because of the additional bank debt put in place to refinance bond maturing in 2024. Carmila signed a new secured loan in April of this year. And finally, recurring earnings are up 1.5%. Now on Slide 24, you have the recurring earnings per share, up 2.6% which is slightly higher than the increase in recurring earnings because of the share buybacks. As mentioned, rent collection is back to normal. There is positive indexation and we have generated organic growth on top of indexation. Looking at the outlook for year-end 2023. Carmila continues to deliver a predictable financial performance and earnings growth. There will be a positive indexation effect of on net rental income of approximately 3% to 4%. We are confident that rent collection will remain at the current level. There will be an impact from disposals. Overall, we expect recurring earnings per share for the year at EUR 1.57. If you strip out disposals and provision reversal last year, that corresponds to organic growth of recurring earnings per share of 8%. Now on the balance sheet and starting with net tangible asset value per share. It stands at EUR 24.35 and is down 3.6% from year-end 2022. A bit less than half of that change is due to the payment of the dividend in June versus only a half year of recurring earnings. There is also the impact of the like-for-like change in appraisal value, which is only partly offset by share buybacks at discounts to net asset value. Turning to the next slide and leverage. The TV ratio stands at 37.3% at end June 2023. That is driven by the typical seasonality in H1 with the payment of the dividend and net debt remains below the level of 1 year ago. The net debt-to-EBITDA ratio for the last 12 months stands at 7.7x, which is unchanged from end 2022 and among the best-in-class in the sector. The interest coverage ratio is unchanged at 4.5x. These ratios are well below bank covenants and rating constraints for Carmila's BBB rating, giving Carmila plenty of financial headroom. On liquidity and funding on Slide 27. There has been further progress over the last 6 months. In April, 4 subsidiaries of Carmila France raised EUR 276 million of new financing secured by 4 centers. The financing was provided by Carmila's usual pool of French relationship banks. The pricing was more attractive than the bond market at a spread of 3 months Euribor plus 175 basis points. So Carmila's bond spreads have continued to tighten since then and are now below that level. The bond maturing in September is entirely covered by cash on Carmila's balance sheet. The secured loan refinances part of the bond maturing in September 2024, of which only EUR 170 million is left to refinance by September of next year. The average funding cost of net debt is up slightly at 2.5%. Due to the new bank debt and the average debt maturity remains at 4.4 years. On top of that, Carmila has a prudent interest rate hedging position and has locked in lower rates with long-term swaps and other derivatives. It's net debt is almost fully hedged to variation in short-term interest rates between now and 2025. To sum up the financial part of today's presentation are the main points I would like you to keep in mind. The valuation of the portfolio is broadly stable versus 2022. LTV is at the same level as this time last year at 37.3%. We have seen like-for-like rental growth of 4.5%, in line with indexation, which has driven growth in recurring earnings per share of 2.6% which includes the impact of asset sales. Dividend policy is unchanged, and we confirm the guidance of recurring earnings per share of EUR 1.57 in 2023. Carmila continues to deliver a stable and predictable financial performance. Before ending over, and as Marie mentioned, I would also like to provide a quick overview of the financial impact of the Galimmo transaction, which was described in the press release. First, the earnings impact. Taking into account the 9.8% net initial yield of the Galimmo portfolio, funding costs of the acquisition at around 5% and synergies estimated at around EUR 5 million, recurring EPS accretion is expected to be between 3% and 5%. On net asset value, acquiring the portfolio of Galimmo at a 35% discount to gross asset value will result in a gain in P&L and a 5% increase in net asset value based on pro forma financials. Finally, on loan-to-value, following the disposal of its Belgium exposure, which includes a 15% equity stake and the shareholder loan at a price that has already been actually agreed. Galimmo will have around EUR 65 million of net debt or an LTV offer on 9%. Including the acquisition debt of EUR 294 million and the refinancing of Galimmo's debt as well as the value of Galimmo assets based on the current valuation, the impact on loan-to-value is expected to be around 100 and 70 and 60 bps. Finally, when it comes to financing the acquisition, including the refinancing of Galimmo's debt for a total amount of around EUR 360 million, there are several options. We could look at both the bond and the bank market. And we'll be looking to make progress on this in the coming months and well in advance of the closing.

Thank you, Pierre-Yves. A few words to conclude today's presentation. In the first half of this year, Canada has again shown the quality of its portfolio and the appetite of investors and retailers for transformed hypermarket encore, leading shopping centers in mid-sized cities. Business fundamentals are solid so is financial performance and Carmila's balance sheet. The successful execution of the strategic plan has put Carmila in a position of strength. That position has enabled Carmila to target growth and to enter a new phase in its development with the acquisition of Galimmo. We are now available to answer your questions. Let's start the Q&A session.

[Operator Instructions] The first question today comes from Afonso Stephane of Invest Securities.

I have 3 questions on my side, if I may. And I think the best way is to go through them one by one. So the first one on Galimmo acquisition, I understand that you are buying EUR 690 million of assets at an enterprise value of EUR 360 million, which implies roughly a capital gain of EUR 330 million. So I would like to know if my estimate is right or there is some considerations in terms of noncontrolling interest or other assets or revenues that I'm missing?

No, yes, I agree with your view. Yes, that's right.

Okay. And maybe one question on Carrefour Nexity partnership. Could we have an idea of the revenue that Nexity is targeting with this partnership on your certain site or at least have an idea of the costly potential in square meters?

We won't comment this aspect because it's a Carrefour issue.

Okay. And maybe one last question on this topic. Does this partnership cover all the land bank potential of your portfolio?

No. On mixed use project, you can remember that we have already 2 projects with Carrefour and Altarea, Sartrouville and Nantes. So we will have 13 projects concerned by the partnership between Carrefour and Nexity, and we have other kind of sites in which mixed-use projects are possible. I can mention, for example, [indiscernible]

Okay. And finally, regarding your earnings guidance, I would like to make sure that there is no provision of reversal to be recognized next year due to COVID. Is that right?

Yes, you are right, it has been fully treated last year, and now there is no provision reversal in the guidance.

Okay. And one last question. Could you split the plus 8% organic growth that you are targeting in 2023 regarding the expected indexation that in, by the way, quite low compared to the last indexing.

It's a global positive impacts on the net rental income of plus 4.5%, of which 3.7% of indexation and organic growth on top of that. And with the leverage of the cost structure and the financial debt you get to the 8% organic growth of the recurring EPS.

The next question comes from Pieter Runneboom of Kempen.

I got actually 2 questions on the Galimmo portfolio. First, could you tell me how the efforts portfolio, quality of Galimmo compares to the existing Carmila portfolio quality?

Galimmo portfolio is made up of 13 bigger assets, which compares well to Carmila assets. There are local leaders in their catchment areas anchored to a powerful hypermarkets and convenience shopping centers. So it's a high quality of 13 major flagship assets and then about 30 smaller assets, but we have also that expertise. We have also smaller assets in Carmila. So we consider globally, it's a good portfolio.

Okay. And a follow-up on that. So do you budget any CapEx for these Galimmo assets to get them up to quality maybe also on sustainability requirements?

So the idea with the Galimmo portfolio is to create value, thanks to Carmila platform. So we will continue with our small project restructuring assets that you will implement to the Galimmo portfolio. And then on the ESG part, Galimmo has already is on ESG strategy, but we will look at how we will implement our own strategy on the Galimmo portfolio.

Question comes from Allison Sun of Bank of America.

Three questions from my side. First 2 questions is again about Galimmo's portfolio. Can you tell me what's the -- if you happen to know the OCR of Galimmo? And also, what's the average cost of borrowing of this company as of end of last year?

So Galimmo's OCR aren't disclosed, so we won't make any comments on the Galimmo's OCR, except that they have the same kind of tenants, and so we know well the tenants of Galimmo . On the average cost of debt of this company, they have refinanced a new mortgage loan at the beginning of the year and -- but with the transaction, the net debt will be reduced by the disposal of the Belgium perimeter. So the net debt will be reduced to approx EUR 60 million before the transaction. And about the condition, those conditions are disclosed in their universal registration document and are in line with market conditions.

Okay. Okay. And maybe the last one is assume you are buying Galimmo's assets at cheaper than the book value price. So from the accounting perspective, I guess you were probably putting in some bad will in your account. But if you can help me understand because as far as we know, the EPRA NAV, they do not include any good will or actually bad will. So how -- so I guess the NAV credit of around 5% guidance is not really from the EPRA NAV perspective, right?

Okay. That's a question for me. I think -- so yes, bad will be accounted because of the difference of the acquisition price and the market value and the book value of Galimmo. Then at the revaluation of the Galimmo portfolio, which will be confirmed by the experts, we are sure confident on that. We will recognize a gain in the P&L and that will help us come to accounts the Galimmo portfolio at its net disposal value. So I hope I answered your question.

Okay. But that's not -- that's according to the EPRA methodology or not really?

Yes, of course, we will be in line with the EPRA methodology, and we don't need any restatements to account Galimmo at its book value.

The next question comes from Florent Laroche-Joubert of ODDO.

Yes. So thank you for this presentation. So several questions on my side. Maybe first question on the acquisition of Galimmo S A. So we are seeing that you have -- there is 39 convenient small assets in this portfolio. So you have made, I think, a due diligence. How many can we say that maybe you have identified a potential for developing these small assets as maybe more bigger shopping center? So maybe that as of maybe as a first view that could be interesting if you have more color on that? Second question. So you have highlighted the partnership with Carrefour and Nexity, and there are certain cabin assets in the scope of this partnership. So can we expect any value creation for Carmila from this partnership? And maybe the last question about the tenants that are concerned by bankruptcy or recovery plans. How do you assess this situation today? Are you more tenants concerned by this or less or same number?

Okay. Thank you, Florent, for your question. The first one, concerning the relatively small asset of Galimmo. I think it's a bit too early to give you very precise projects. I just can repeat what Pierre just mentioned. We know how to manage those sites -- the site, even the convenience sites match the side of Carmila. And we will have -- we have already [indiscernible] to develop those sites. On the Nexity part, so it's clearly -- it's a partnership between Nexity and Carrefour. I remind you that there are 13 Carmila site concerned by the partnership. On 12 sites, it's really a densification project with development on the car park or on land around the site. One site will be a complete repurposing of the site. Clearly, for Carmila, it's an opportunity to make site more attractive and to increase the number of residents in the catchment area. So for us, it's very positive. And the third question.

And the last question about fashion bankruptcies in France. So we provided an indication of this impact in our half report. Carmila tenants in France concerned by procedure plants in France represents 2.6% of the rental base but of which just only 0.6% is fourth quarter of their liquidations. The top 5 is 1.5%, and it includes [indiscernible]. But only San Marina is in a cost order liquidation and these others are recovery or safeguard plans, but no permanent closure. And as we have demonstrated in the past, we have the capacity taking into account the impact to let those shops, if they were to close. So we are confident in this.

And I would like to add that some fashion retailers are doing very well.

Okay. Okay. But -- so the situation is not -- no more tenants concerned by this than before. So for you, this is the same type of situation.

Yes.

Our next question comes from Pieter Runneboom of Kempen.

Yes, sorry. I got another question on the average cost of debt. I see the net cost of debt is up 10 bps. Normally, you report of its gross debt. So sorry, how is this changing?

So we report on the average cost of net debt because we plus the cash on deposit and it generates some financial products. So we think it was the best way to present the cost of debt at 2.5%. If you want to make the maths or the information is in the H1 documentation. So it's easy to make the calcul and to see that the gross cost of debt is also very controlled. We have a strong focus on the liquidity, a strong focus on the hedging strategy and the message is that it's really controlled. When you look at Carmila's P&L, you can see that the increase in the H1 of the financial cost is just EUR 1 million.

Yes, that clear. Could you tell me what's the average cost on growth rate?

No, it's not a figure that we disclose. But for example, if you look at our last refinancing, we had a spread of 175 basis points. It was already hedged -- pre-hedge and another indication about market condition maybe is the last step we made on the EUR 25 million on the 2029 maturity and it was at a yield of 4.9%.

Okay. I'll calculate myself. And then on the hedging ratio, that's around 83%. Do you feel this is a correct hedging ratio at this point in time? Or would you like it to go even further?

No. We'll revert to you, but the hedging ratio in '23, '24 and '25 is around 100%. And so that's our strategy to be fully covered of potential increase to the interest rates, but we can see that with you, it's 100% and not 83%.

As we have no further on the telephone lines, I would like to hand the call over for the web questions. Great. So we have a few questions on the webcast, which I will now read out one by one for everyone. So the first question, can you please detail the upside expected from the transformation of your malls into mixed-use projects and the expected calendar?

Well, so those misuse projects are long-term projects, so we will get the benefit after the end of the plan. As I already mentioned, there are several type of mixed-use projects. there are big bang mixed-use projects such as [indiscernible] and where Carmila is part of the restructuring firm. And there are the Carrefour Nexity project where the project will be built outside the lane of Carmila. Carmila will benefit from more attractivity of -- for its shopping centers.

So next question from the webcast. Do you intend to grow your business outside of France? Or are you comfortable with the current geographical mix?

We are comfortable with the current geographical mix. We have already a big acquisition to realize in France with Galimmo.

And the final question from the webcast. It's asking for more detail about the Galimmo acquisition and the properties acquired by Carmila. Can you give more background on the average rent per square meter the occupancy cost ratio of the Galimmo portfolio and the acquisition price per square meter? And also, can you please comment on which banks will provide the acquisition debt and how you intend to finance the circa EUR 360 million of acquisition debt?

So on the [indiscernible], as Pierre mentioned, we won't give you the information because it's not public information from Galimmo, which is a listed company. I think it's the same for the average rental by square meters. And I'll let Pierre answer on final.

Yes. On the -- so there is a mortgage in Galimmo, we will talk with some -- our banks to see how we will refinance the Galimmo acquisition. To sum up, it is EUR 360 million to finance. We have access to bank market, to the bond market and to the mortgage market. So plenty of options. It will be one of our focus in the coming months, and we will anticipate that financing. So we are confident, yes.

So we have an additional question from the webcast, which is on the refinancing strategy for 2024 bonds. What is the refinancing strategy to refinance the remaining portion, the EUR 170 million after 2024 bonds?

So the refinancing strategy of the 2024, it has been already anticipated as we signed in April a mortgage loan of EUR 276 million to refinance partly that bond. The amount -- the total amount is EUR 550 million of which the most part is covered by cash. We just only have EUR 170 million. So plenty of possibility. It could be tapped from other bonds. It could be a bond or bank market, the same answer than for the Galimmo acquisition, we have plenty of options, and we will anticipate that refinancing.

We are very confident on our ability to refinance this 2024 and to finance the Galimmo acquisition.

And just to remind you, that's on the liquidity, we have also an important revolving credit facility of EUR 550 million fully undrawn.

We have another question on the Galimmo acquisition. Are you confident that you can revert Galimmo's EPRA vacancy to Carmila's level? And is this included in the EPRA EPS accretion?

On the EPRA EPS accretion, we have EUR 5 million of synergy, of which EUR 1 million is from revenue synergies. So we can -- we think we can improve that level and put it to the same level as Carmila level. So yes, we think we can -- with the Carmila platform is the good platform to manage those kind of assets and we will create some value from that.

We have another question from the webcast on the Galimmo acquisition. You were acquiring a portfolio at a yield of 9.8% and your portfolio is valued at a yield of 6.3%. How do you explain this difference?

I think it's a very specific situation with the parallel acquisition of both the shopping center and grocery business from a specific center. The acquisition is in cash and for the whole portfolio and grocery business in France. And so that context is very different to the sale of individual assets at our close to appraisal value. So it's a very specific situation.

Great. Thank you. So we have no further questions from the webcast. Thank you, everyone, for participating in today's earnings call. That's it from us. Please get in touch if you have any follow-up questions. And for those of you leaving on a summer break, we wish you a nice summer. Thank you.

Thank you. Have a nice summer.