Carnival Corporation Ltd. (CCL) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

I would like to thank you to -- for coming and joining this panel on energy efficient technologies - improving fleet performance. This panel will discuss real-time performance monitoring and technologies that reduce fuel usage, enabling companies to achieve fleet performance improvements while also reducing carbon emissions. So this is one of the critical topics that shipowners are facing today. I would like to thank Christos Chryssakis of DNV for moderating this panel, and I will let him introduce the panelists. Thank you very much for being with us. Christos, please take over.

Thank you very much, Nicolas. A warm welcome to this panel on Energy Efficient Technologies - Improving Fleet Performance. My name is Christos Chryssakis. I'm a business development manager for DNV Maritime, and I would have the pleasure of chairing this session. Last November at the IMO, at IMO MEPC75, we had the first agreement on short-term measures for reducing greenhouse gas emissions from shipping. And at the same time, we see that the European Union is also taking action in the same direction. We have other industry stakeholders increasing pressure on shipping to decarbonize. Some of the most notable examples here are the Poseidon Principles, so in the commitment of financiers and the Sea Cargo Charter that is supported by some of the major charterers. So this naturally raises the -- many questions on how these goals can be achieved. And while we know that low-carbon fuels will be an important part of the solution, energy efficiency technologies would be key for reducing the carbon intensity in the fleet in the short term and also for reducing the fuel bill, both in the short and in the long term. So then the question is which technologies can help us most moving forward and how we can ensure also maximum utilization of these technologies in shipping. To discuss these important questions, I'm very glad to introduce our panelists today, representing a wide range of shipping segments. We have Tom Strang with us, Senior Vice President, Maritime Affairs, Carnival Corporation. Welcome, Tom. In the program, we have -- oh, Tommy just joined us. Tommy Thomassen, Vice President, Maersk Tankers. Welcome, Tommy. Richard Gilmore, Executive Vice President, Maran Gas Maritime. Welcome, Richard. We have also with us Stelios Psillakis, Technical Director of Seanergy Maritime. Welcome, Stelios. And in addition to representatives of shipowners, we have the pleasure of having with us representative of an oil major. We have Steve Brown, Manager of Shipping Technology at Shell. Welcome, Steve. And last but not least, Roberto Coustas, CEO and Co-Founder of DeepSea Technologies, which is a technology company specializing in vessel performance monitoring, optimization. Welcome, Roberto.

Thank you very much.

So now we're ready to give the word to our panelists. We know that various ship types have different characteristics and different requirements. So it would be good to hear from you which solutions you see making a difference today and how much they can contribute in reducing emissions from your fleet. And you can also say a few things also about which solutions you already have experience with and what is your experience so far? So I would like to start with Tom, if you can tell us a few words about your experience and what you see making a difference today.

Well, thanks, Christos, and thank you very much to Capital Link and everyone for inviting us here today. I think it's a very important topic and clearly, as you say, one of the key challenges for our the broader shipping industry. So in Carnival, we've spent a lot of time looking at energy saving because it's clear that despite opportunities for us to look at the other pathways of decarbonization whether that's the alternative fuels of the future, operational measures, really, we do need to continue to focus continuously on energy saving and being more efficient. So in our company, we've -- since 2005, we've managed to reduce our fuel consumption by over 30%, and that's been done through a mixture of both operational and technical measures. The cruise industry is a little bit unique insofar as that we have a massive hotel load on each of our ships, could be up to 15 megawatts of power that's there, whereas we might also have another 40 megawatts of propulsion load at the same time. But typically, we've looked at -- so we've concentrated in various different areas. We've managed to do a lot on our hotel load, but the hotel load on the accounts are a relatively small percentage of the overall power. But that is the area where we've probably seen the most opportunity. We also have looked enormously -- looked -- taken a lot of time to look at different things in the hydrodynamics and the machinery installations. We've entered into relationships with a number of our partners, key OEM suppliers like Wartsila, who are the major engine supplier for our group. We've worked with them on performance-based logistic contracts. And those are very, very -- have been very powerful tools to allow us to at least try to -- first of all, try to achieve the kind of standards that you should get from your engines when they're new and then actually improve beyond that, whether that's then looking at your different turbocharger-type technologies, whether it's looking at different fuel injection systems, et cetera. All of this has helped us in that area. We've got 4 ships with our lubrication systems onboard today. And we've been working together with other partners in the industry, and we're happy to share some of the experiences we've received there. Now those are typically -- and that's probably the way we get the single biggest component on our propulsion load saving of around about 5% on average, I would say, across the speed ranges. But clearly, there are a lot of challenges involved in getting this technology to work. Now currently, as most of you realize, the cruise industry is in a very difficult situation. We're not in the best place when it comes to having ships operating. Propeller boss cap fins, 1%, 1.5%. Typically, we had numerous propeller -- different propeller designs that we've tested, some of which have been better, some of which have not been better. But probably the area in which we're really seeing the most benefit from ourselves right now, if I talk about it, is obviously hull coating maintenance because if we're only dry-docking once every 5 years, then keeping the -- the hull coating -- the hull coating only goes one way. It degrades over time. And keeping it properly maintained is a massive, massive benefit. But as I said, there is -- on the hotel side, there's also a lot we're doing, whether that's the use of low-energy lighting systems by changing all of our ships to LED lighting. Now if you imagine a cruise ship's like a city, if you change all those lights to LEDs, you can save a significant percentage of your power consumption. The HVAC systems that we have, so looking at those, a lot of those were designed very robustly, but really quite simply, there's a lot of technology you can bring in today to help with that. On top of that though, I can go on for hours, and I'd like to give everybody else the opportunity to speak and learn from the others that have been here. But clearly, the other thing that really is important, when I was in charge of the marine operations of one of our groups, it was very clear to me that the most -- the place where most of the fuel was being used is in not setting up the plant correctly or operational issues, people wanting to run more engines, looking at this in a very different way. So that whole piece is really important. And clearly, measuring the performance is really critical. Getting that data onboard, being able to analyze it properly is an essential part of what we do. Yes, we've got different -- we've got a number of different tools across our fleet in the different brands, which help us do that, whether it's an [ all around ] tool, whether it's [ ABS and Octopus ], they're all out there, and they can all help you. But really collecting that data, bringing it ashore and allowing the naval architects, the technologists to take a look at it and then helping the operators onboard the ships understand where they can save that energy is very important.

Tom, excuse me. Let me interrupt you here. We'll come back to that. That's a very important point. Let's take a round of everyone else, and we'll definitely come back to you.

Happy to shut up.

Let's move to Tommy. If you can tell us a few words about your experience, energy efficiency.

Yes. Thank you, Christos. And also from my side -- from our side, a big thank you to Capital Link for setting this up and for inviting us to join in with like-minded companies. In Oil Maersk Tankers, we see a lot of potential solutions out there. We have, over many, many years, been on the forefront of both investigating and testing and also trialing out new technologies to reduce fuel consumption and thereby, of course, also reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Similarly to what Tom elaborated on from Carnival, we have tested different solutions, both to reduce hull resistance to optimize propulsion efficiency. Such as, for instance, new types of paints, underwater paints. The use of air bubbles also, installation of propeller boss cap fins cabins, as you also mentioned, propeller losses and so on and so forth. We have also gone to the extent of extending emission-free power producers, if you want, so -- such as the Flettner rotors that are shown in my background on the Maersk Pelican but also other technologies, kites, sails, solar panels and so on and so forth. And we have worked on how can we then reduce the consumption, both on the main engine turbocharger fuel injectors but also by installing frequency converters, having better controls of the large pumps that we have on tanker vessels, optimized power management systems and the smaller bits and pieces. On product tankers, we have less people and thereby also less lights, but it still gives a good effect to actually install LED lights. And then I think, very importantly, not to forget, we have been testing and trialing a lot of different systems for auto logging flow meters, reporting tools to make sure that we have a good transparency on what we do. So all of that means that, over many years, we have put in a lot of efforts to both investigate but also to test and trial and install technology upgrades on the ships that we manage. So we'd like to think that we actually know which solutions work. And we know, more importantly, the combined effect of those technology solutions. And we are very confident that the real savings can be achieved by applying the right solutions to the right ships. Typically, I'd say, in the range of 15% to 20% reductions can be achieved. And that's, by the way, without adding Flettner rotors, which are more significant technologies. And may I say also, by the way, it was very attractive payback terms. Now despite those significant savings, we still noticed that there seemingly is little interest in upgrading or retrofitting existing ships with these solutions. And I believe that's an issue we'll address later on in a few questions here, Christos, so back to you.

Yes. That's definitely something to come back to. Payback is maybe the magic word here. Let's move on to Richard. You're involved in gas tankers. It's different requirements there. So what's your experience?

Yes. Let me also start off by just thanking Capital Link and all of you for this opportunity here to join. And to set the stage the bit on the LNG side, the industry itself has gone through a major transition from 2005 to today, and that has been driven by 2 principal things. One is propulsion type that's going from steam to medium speed diesel to now a slow speed diesel and also vessel size from 140,000 cubic meter size vessels up to now the standard is more or less 175,000 on order and in service. And these combined elements have caused a reduction in fuel consumption per ton delivered of about 50%, which organic waste, the CO2 emissions, lower CO2 emissions. So it's been a good story. Our company started with its first vessel being delivered, a steam vessel in 2005. And as we ordered the vessels, we were constantly applying the latest and newest technology. So our fleet has also gone through the same progression, which is all good news. But it now leads us with the harder road to go going forward. The big improvements have been made. And we have already selected our fuel choice. We don't have to worry about that one. It's going to be LNG from now on in the future. So we have continued to look at measures and have applied throughout this progression as well with hull improvements in the hull form, particularly with the bulbous bow, propeller design, all the things that have been touched upon by the previous 2 speakers. We took it upon ourselves to put air lubrication on a ship and see what the results were going to be in our LNG vessel, and that's been in operation now for over a year. And we're seeing consistent 3% to 5% improvement based on that. It varies depending on the weather and the speed of the vessel, but it's pretty consistent. It takes a lot of power to drive that thing. So we have now got a vessel on order that will come out in 2022, which will combine air lubrication with shaft power generation. So we'll pick up the additional efficiency of the slow speed diesel in generating that power. And we expect that system to be something, 6% or slightly above when it comes out, and we'll get to see how that performs. So these are the main things that we have done and through the course, we've added reliquefaction onboard, which helps widen the range -- operating range of the vessels to keep it efficient even at lower speeds. And I would just echo a point that Tom made earlier, hull coatings. And that's a huge item. Paint doesn't often get a lot of attention. Probably, it deserves more. And you can lose between 10% and 20% if you start picking up fouling. So we do quite a bit to monitor what's going on. And in addition to that, we have onboard the cameras, underwater -- basically an underwater GoPro with a rig to lower it down to actually look and see how things are at idle points when we're at anchor or something because you can't always arrange the divers and so forth. So we spend quite a bit of time trying to monitor the condition of the ships and maintain the efficiency as best we can with hull cleaning because that is a big, big factor. We are exploring other things. There are other technologies out there, and we hope and expect that they'll develop into something that we can apply. But it's still a bit early days to see just where the next big jump is going to come from.

Thank you, Richard, for this. I'll come back to some of these points, and I start seeing already some commonalities even between segments. Stelios, if you can tell us a few words what your experience from Seanergy. You are muted.

Yes. First of all, thank you very much for inviting us, you and the Capital Link. Then, as you know, Seanergy is the only pure-play Capesize listed company. So basically, I will talk about our experience having to do with energy efficiency improvements and decarbonization. Most of the speakers mentioned a lot of things that can be done how to improve their energy efficiency for vessel. But first, all these techniques are considerably reduced when it comes to the existing fleet. You cannot apply all these things to the existing fleet, and this is a big issue for us. And of course, you can have energy efficiency improvements for the hull by installing, let's say, a dark tone like the previous speaker said, low friction of the fouling paint for the machinery; or even like we do with DeepSea, we can improve the operational profile of your vessel by having artificial intelligence, smart performance monitoring systems and things like that. But the basic thing is to see basically what we can do not only for the new buildings, but they are -- sky is a limit when it comes to the new buildings. You can optimize the hull [indiscernible]. But for the existing fleet, it will be difficult and the maximum we have seen is at the range 15% to 20%. And this is proven, Christos, with the studies we had DNV and ABS. We are one of the frontier companies when it comes to bulk carrier vessels that we had energy efficiency devices installed on both our vessels in cooperation with other charterers. And excluding the operational performance and the improvement there, which is at the range of the 10%, and Roberto can say more about it, we have seen a maximum 15%, 20% improvement. But okay, of course, it's important. It's -- but this is [ tough ], I think, we can achieve from an existing vessel. And then we have EEXI, the energy efficiency index from existing ships, which is a design index and kind of the CII, which is the Carbon Intensity Index. This is an operational index. So you have to combine the [ needs ] and technologies in order to be able to cope with the forthcoming regulations and at the same to keep your vessel attractive for your clients because, I mean, you cannot reduce the speed by 20%, 30%, the [ waiting ] for vessels, to be attractive to anyone. So -- and then we have the Tier 2 vessels that are penalized because they have -- the only way to reduce the NOx is to increase the [ stock ]. So we have a range of vessels being built for 2009, 2012, '13 when we start using ultra long stroke engines but are penalized. And we see specific fuel consumption in the range of 185 grams per kilowatt, while the modern vessels are at 165 and those -- these vessels are penalized. So there -- this is a huge discussion basically.

Yes. I would like to interrupt you here.

Yes. I know. I know.

You actually brought in an interesting aspect, difference between new buildings and existing vessels. And also you talked about attractiveness for the charterers. And we have next in our panel a charterer, maybe not for you directly, but I have Steve Brown representing Shell. So Steve, what is your experience and your point of view on this as a charterer?

Yes. Thanks, Christos. And yes, thanks to Capital Link for inviting us today. I think I'd be largely repeating what some of the other panel members have said already, very similar approaches. Maybe highlighting the work we did with Tommy on his Flettner rotors behind him. Great picture, Tommy. And then also reinforcing the point that Tom and Richard have made around our lubrication technology, which for us has been the biggest efficiency gain. We've just deployed Silverstream's technology on an LNG carrier, and that's delivering some pretty good returns already up to around 8%, but we are still optimizing that because it was only installed last October. But I think the main point, rather than repeating the other panelists, just to say, the important part is integrating the technologies into the design rather than just sort of adding them and shoehorning them in, so actually spending time with the shipyards to see how the holistic design is impacted. And I think Richard started to touch on it, where he's using [ shock ] powered generators to power his compressors that feed his air lubrication system, so starting to bring the whole plant together and actually seeing a much bigger benefit. And on the LNG side, we're seeing with the most up-to-date designs that are coming through, actually 60% -- up to 65% reduction versus the 2008 benchmark, which, of course, would be largely based around a lot of steam in the fleet at that time but still a massive, massive progress already.

Okay. Thank you. And yes, I think the question for integration is also a very important part of the equation here, how you make sure that the whole system works better together. I would like now to move on to Roberto. You do not operate any vessels, but you offer technology that can help optimize performance. So maybe you can tell us a few words about -- based on how monitoring can support in this energy efficiency improvement.

Of course. First of all, thank you very much, Christos, for inviting in this panel. It's truly an honor to be among the rest of the speakers here. And I think my perspective is a bit unique because I am neither an owner nor a charter, but I'm somewhere in the middle actually monitoring vessels, let's say, from a third angle. So something that I really agree with what Tommy said and Steve here and I also said this before is that every vessel is unique, and therefore, there isn't one solution to just fit all vessels. It just has to do on a case-by-case basis as you'd examine what speed does a vessel operate in, what is the economic impact of this investment, how old is the vessels, are we talking about the new building or an existing vessel, so you need to make the right investment on a case-by-case basis. And this is the most difficult thing because you need data understand the behavior of the vessel and then make an investment decision because what we very often see at DeepSea is companies wanting, let's say, necessarily to make an improvement, and they many times blindly invest in technology that is harmful to their vessel instead of improving it. So one example is, for instance, the ducted propellers that were mentioned as a performance enhancement. So something that I need to state as a third party that has seen hundreds of vessels with high-frequency data, on every case we have examined, ducted propellers improved performance on a narrow speed range. Outside of that speed range, the ducted propellers can even reduce the performance of the vessel versus its state. So now if I were to just list the top 3, the role listed here just from my, let's say, third-party perspective, is antifouling So hull coating is, I think, the most important performance improvement. The reason being is that it operates on all given speeds. It doesn't have any limitation. The second would be optimizing the vessel's route and speed, optimization technologies. And the third would be ducted propellers. But now in terms of what is the return on investment because you can save 10% whether you spend 10 million on an investment. It doesn't necessarily make an economic sense. So it would be technologies first just because the upfront investment is very low, then anti-fouling paints and timely cleaning that is also mentioned in the call and then ducted propellers and everything else. Just my opinion.

Thank you, Roberto. I think that's a good step to move to my next question, which is on the impact of digitalization, data availability and monitoring. How can real-time performance monitoring and even -- maybe even artificial intelligence technologies help reduce fuel consumption and enable owners to reduce your fleet performance? So maybe we can start with Tommy this time. What is your experience on that? And also, how do you see this moving forward?

Yes. Yes, sure. Thanks, Christos. And so the shortest answer would be we know that applying real-time performance monitoring tools and on top of that, artificial intelligence technologies can greatly help reduce the fuel consumption and also enable companies to optimize overall fleet performance, time charter equivalent. And the reason we know that is because we have been working on developing such tools and solutions for a number of years now. And as most of you would probably know, we have also recently spun off a separate company called ZeroNorth with the aim to take these solutions to the market and thereby help the entire tramp shipping industry to both improve on TCE but certainly also reduce emissions. So whether it comes to enhancing an individual ship's or a whole fleet performance, underlying that increasing the earnings and reducing the CO2 emissions, there -- we believe there is a vast and untapped potential in utilizing the data insights. But simply collecting those data isn't enough to secure that you have a real positive and impactful change. These data need to be turned into real actions. And I think one of the biggest challenges in the industry, and that's in the shipping industry, is that the data today are very siloed, and they're not in a standardized or structured format. So what we do in ZeroNorth is a tool called Optimise that helps customers on the journey to make their data actionable by advising which data to collect, get the right data in there and then connect that with data from other relevant external sources in whatever format they might come. So in other words, we take the unstructured data, and we bring it in together with the external data and provide this decision guidance tool to the operators on an individual ship level but also on a fleet level. And we know it holds vast potential in optimizing the individual ship performance, whether it's on its route here and now or the next route or the next voyage and certainly also overall for fleet performance. So that's my short pitch on that. Christos, back to you.

Thank you. Richard, you also mentioned monitoring. Maybe you can tell us a few words about what is your experience with that?

Sure. We used -- trying to use data effectively. I can tell you that. But I say try because I think there's a lot of data that comes in off the ships that we have not yet been able to fully mine and fully utilize as we could. And actually, we have a couple of programs running right now trying to improve our data analysis tools, which we think will provide good positive results. The areas where we really focus using this data at the current time is maintenance planning, trying to keep the plant as efficient as possible and making sure that the timing of overhauls, if it's condition-based or whatever, we're getting the right data back and understanding the condition of the machine and if we see it deteriorate, make the move to upgrade or overhaul it. I think the other area that has been very effective is getting the data back. So the engineers here can be monitoring the ship, but also now with many of our vendors, they can also step in and help troubleshoot. So things do not stay in a negative area for long. They get put back into proper order even if it requires vendor assistance. I think an area that we're all going to be driven to with IMO is also trying to harness all this data and put it in the formats needed for reporting with CII and the ESG reporting for companies and so forth. And actually, we've had recently charters -- some charters asking us for emissions data and for a particular voyage and -- because it's now becoming part of their dialogue with their clients. So data is all around us, and the trick, I think, is to try to apply it as efficiently and effectively as possible. One last point I will make is just that, in the LNG business, our ships generate on-time chart. Working with our charters is an important element in trying to optimize the fleet and the use of the fleet and the efficiency of each voyage. So we do that, and I think the charters themselves spend quite a bit of time, and probably Steve will have some thoughts on this, trying to optimize their data and how they deploy the fleet and send it around the world. Thank you.

And maybe that's a good point to bring Steve in that discussion. How do you use the data? How would you like to use the data from your side?

So thanks, Christos. And thanks, Richard, for the mention. Yes, I think maybe to mention, first, we introduced our digital platform in Shell for the LNG carrier fleet in 2011. And just through its introduction, so no other hardware other than high-frequency data loggers. We've achieved 14% savings from the chartered fleet. And that's more about having data, being able to act on data. To things, I think, that Richard's starting to indicate, we're looking out at things like just-in-time arrival, much better weather routing and better triangulation between the ships so that they're laden more and in ballast less put simply. But also it's -- as well as looking at data and seeing what it's telling us, it's also digging into the data with data analysts and seeing what we didn't know as well. And we've started to develop some tools, one called JAWS, which is a hydrodynamic optimization tool, which is delivering some really, really good savings at very, very low cost. I mean the cost is only a data logger. And that technology is now rolled out on a number of the ships. And Richard and his ships are using that already. Also using data in ports. We have a project called Pronto, where we have sort of digitalized the port exchange. And through that initiative in Rotterdam, and it's on trial in Houston as well today, we've reduced waiting times by 20%. So those are just some examples, Christos. Thanks.

Thank you. Maybe, again, a little bit back to Roberto before going to Tom and Stelios. But Roberto, how can the tools supplied by providers like yourself, how can you help also with the processing of the data? We heard that just collecting the data is not enough. You need to do something with them.

[indiscernible] Thank you very much, Christos. This is an excellent, let's say, lead into my thoughts on this because now we're at a time where many companies have tried data in the past. Some have yielded results and many haven't. And the key is that artificial intelligence is to be used to process the data. As we know, vessels are very highly complex. So the vessel's fuel consumption depends on the speed, on the draft, on the wind and wind angle and the salinity, water temperature. So if you list all of these parameters, it becomes a very, very difficult problem to all. So what many companies end up doing is they try and eliminate many of these parameters and end up simplifying the problem enough, which leads to them knowing -- and the good weather data and the fuel consumption is but no one really having a clue where the fuel consumption should be in severe weather. And this is a very, very difficult problem. But this is where our artificial intelligence and such technologies are very, very powerful. So by using artificial intelligence, you can actually capture the behavior of the vessel and how to behave under all of these conditions. For instance on DeepSea, we use over 40 parameters to understand how the vessel's external environment influences fuel consumption. And now the interesting thing comes. So they can understand how the vessel behaves. You could also optimize it because if you don't know how much the vessel consumes in 3 meters wave height, you can't really know when to diverge [ in one ] and when to go through it. So with Seanergy for instance, and Stelios can testify to this, we've done case study 10% savings with a fixed ETA. And then that is very important. So everything to say, no other investment, just better route, speed and trip combination yielding 10% savings. And this is real. And I really hope that many people watching this will embrace this technology because it's hard to say where you can yield tangible results.

Thank you, Roberto. I would like -- now I'd like to move back to Stelios. Stelios, you talked about the challenges of existing vessels. And I want to ask you, what are the challenges when it comes to data and data collection on an older vessel that is not equipped for that? And then how can you take that step forward in using data?

Okay. We are doing it -- we believe in that digitalization, smart technologies will become necessity next year, so rather than a choice. A few years back, it was a choice. Now it will become a necessity. So we have collected data from our vessels for the past 5, 6 years. And we have tried various things, and we ended up at -- first of all, you have to fed to -- fed the system properly. We are using mass flow meters, torque meters and we can provide these systems with data from various locations. We have installed then [ climate ] meters for being able to calculate the [ trip ] of the vessel. So -- because basically, we have seen that by using artificial intelligence and smart systems. You have past data. You have performance monitoring. We have voyage estimation. You have route planning. You have predicted weather conditions, so you can alter the vessel. We can [ elevate ] the vessel. We can increase or -- the speed and achieve the same results and at the same time to reduce the energy footprint of the vessel. So we have stopped focusing at the charter path conditions. In cooperation with our clients with major charterers, we are trying to find ways to improve energy efficiency and the energy profile of our vessels. This is what we are doing.

Okay. That's very good to hear that. This is also happening. Tom, back to you. What is your experience from monitoring? And you might also have some operations that are not as flexible when it comes to times of arrival and other restrictions. So what is your...

Yes, thanks for the question because -- and I think a lot of the other speakers have answered the questions already. I think we're all doing very -- we're all trying to do much more with the data. Now we have the advantage that our ships are all diesel electric. We have an advantage at some times that very often we're on track itineraries, very common itineraries, very similar itineraries. And therefore, you can do a lot of in-depth analysis. You can get really good data over the -- from history, from what the weather conditions are going to be, and you can be very predictive. And we look very closely at that. ETAs are very important in our business. Obviously, we're dealing with passengers. We have the only cargo that talks back, and they get very upset if you're not there on time and you haven't delivered the perfect cruise. And clearly, weather routing is very important to us. But I think the challenge -- this also introduces a challenge. Yes, we've got S4 meters on every engine, for example, when looking at the individual consumption of the different consumers, and we monitor that. We're probably not where we need to be on the artificial intelligence space. I absolutely go with Roberto. I think there's an enormous amount that -- of opportunity there. We have an awful lot of data coming off our ships as well. I think one of the disadvantages at times is our ships have a lifetime of 40 years. And so very often, you're trying to find a way to get specific data off a particular piece of equipment with an interface that was obsolete when it was put on the ship. And now it's almost impossible to find ways to interpret it. But I think we found mechanisms and a ways around that. We have our in-house monitoring systems, and then we have those people working on it. But it's really critical because then educating the offices onboard, the human factor, we can lose much more through the human element than we ever capture in the automation. And it really is a challenge to -- but frankly, we have the advantage of our own training facilities. And we have the ability then to make sure that the technology, the understanding is rolled out and providing simple systems onboard to help the officers to optimize in the best possible way when using those shore-based facilities and capabilities. Now we have enough difficulty with getting some of our ships to trim by the head because of the design. So you have to find alternative ways as well. Now we've got lots of -- as I said before, lots of different tools. The question is, is it then making them effective because despite what everybody would like to say, we may have 11 ships of the same class, but each one has a slightly different upgrade on different equipment. And then what you thought you could do the first time around doesn't necessarily work the second time around on the second and third ship, so really working for us, working with the OEMs, working together. We've got relationships. We've been talking to Maersk. We've been talking to Shell. We've talked to a lot of other players in this space. Even though you might not think there's an obviously -- really, the experience you've gained and the opportunities of sharing are phenomenal. And I think that's really one of the powers of these opportunities. As we look to those things that we move forward in, we can really work together and help solve some pretty standard problems. We've got LNG fuel ships, if it hadn't been for the fact that we've worked together with some of the gas suppliers and the tank operators, we wouldn't have been able to understand whether we can make those advantages. And all of this leads to phenomenal savings if you play each of those cards correctly.

I would like to take the point of working together and ask you the question of how can we work together as an industry to ensure that there is maximum uptake of the technologies that we know that are working. For example, we heard from some of you about your experience with air lubrication. It seems it's working. It might still be a relatively expensive technology when it comes to CapEx, so the payback time can be quite long. So what can be done to help the industry work together in terms of owners, charterers and maybe even technology providers enabling maximum utilization of such technologies? Maybe, yes, we can start with you Tom, since you already...

We've -- I said we're members of coalitions like Getting to Zero and others. We've got our own individual sector trade associations, and quite often, you're reluctant to share information because you can see competitive advantage. But in this particular space, I think, as we end up, we will task -- we've all set ourselves, I think, the goal of decarbonizing. And the only way -- it's no use reinventing the wheel every time. To me, it's really important that you work with your OEMs, but also we learn what can happen in other sectors because something that we may be doing in the cruise sector might not immediately be a partly -- applicable in the dry bulk sector or into an oil tanker. However, we've actually found that when we have the opportunity to talk, there's a lot more commonality. They're ships after all. We're pushing large blocks of steel through the water, and there's opportunities that we can see. And I think in this particular space, this is not about competition. It's about learning the lessons and avoiding the pitfalls. As I said, we found air lubrication to be helpful, be useful. We've shared that experience. And what we -- we're now on the second or third generation of pumps that are being used by Silverstream and these other companies, and that's made a massive difference to the payback period. We found ways of improving the apertures in the hull, et cetera. And if you share that, then there's an opportunity for all of us to learn and to get there faster. Standing still isn't good enough. We need to move, and the only way you can do that is being agile. But you've got to listen to what other people have learned.

Moving to Tommy. You actually mentioned payback time. And in addition to learning from each other that you mentioned, is there anything else we can do in working together? I don't know if it's a possibility to share costs and benefits, for example, or other types of initiatives.

Yes, Christos, I believe there is. And first of all, I agree very much with Tom that we need to solve those issues together. As I also indicated under the first question related to existing hardware and solutions out there, we actually agree that the split incentives is the main reason that despite the significant savings that you can achieve by applying the existing solutions, there seemingly is very and surprisingly little activity in upgrading and retrofitting a large part of the existing fleet of ships with these solutions. So we certainly also agree that we need to involve both the charterers and the finance side to align on incentives and thereby enable the introduction of these solutions. So part of the involvement, thankfully, has already started with initiatives like the Poseidon Principles being introduced by leading shipping banks, the later introduction by some of the leading charterers of the Sea Cargo Charter through Global Maritime Forum and Getting to Zero. So part of it has already initiated, but there's clearly still a lot more to do in aligning incentives. And in most tankers, together with like-minded partners, we want to utilize our knowledge and know-how and experience, both within the field of technology, fuel reduction, emission reduction technologies but certainly also within the chartering sphere and the finance area to really participate and take lead and drive this change across different players in the shipping industry. Just like Tom started by saying this requires cooperation, and we want to actively participate in driving these alignment of incentives through the industry.

Thank you, Tommy. I'm mindful of time, so I would like to ask speakers to keep answers to about 1 minute. I would like to move to Roberto. How do you think that using data can enable such collaborations?

Well, thank you very much. [ That's a good ] question. The main -- because -- again, my perspective is quite unique as very often we find ourselves in between the charter and the owner as a data company. It is very important that the incentives are aligned. I agree 100% with Tom and Tommy and what they previously said and that currently the problem is that the charter pays for the fuel and the owner doesn't have a very clear incentive to do so. So what currently happens is owners, in reality, try to comply with the charter party agreement. So the good weather days they report, good fuel consumption, but outside of these limits, they can report whatever they want because it's outside of the contractual limits. So the question we need to ask is how do we create a framework, an incentive structure that would change the industry? So for instance, I think the Sea Cargo Charter and the Poseidon Principles are excellent steps in the right direction. Also right ships grading system is an excellent step in the right direction because if charters, for instance, said if an investment is graded A or B or C according to that framework and it's a framework that both owners and charters agree -- and the good owners will want to agree because they will jump at the opportunity to show how good their vessels are. So if we create that structure and it's tied to an incentive -- and I'm just going to say some rough numbers, but let's say USD 300, if your vessel is graded A as a premium, then it then directly creates an incentive for an owner to really try to make their vessels more efficient because there's a very clear and tangible return. So I believe -- sorry for over the 1 minute, but we shouldn't wait for the IMO to regulate this and demand for owners to have data but rather create a framework so that the industry changes rapidly and organically.

Steve, over to you. You're a charter known for many requirements to owners. What is your view on this?

Well, I'll go really quick because, again, I think Tom and Tommy have said many of the points I would have made. But I think a point to the Sea Cargo Charter as a great example of how this is starting to be addressed through data collection and recording. We can measure progress against the IMO ambitions. And from the charterer's point of view, we can have better integration of climate considerations and also factor those into our chartering decisions.

Thank you. Stelios, what is your view? A few words.

Well -- yes, Christos. So first of all, we have to change our mindset, and we need to collaborations based on trust, transparency. And above all, we need to learn to work together. I'm not saying it will be easy, but this is the only way going forward. And I can accept that it may be difficult for some persons to understand the benefits from using smart systems or energy saving devices. But I guess this is mainly here to do with the fact that shipping is a complex industry and the persons we have built in the operations of the vessels do not have interference with the commercial desks. But I will give you an example and...

I'm very sorry to interrupt.

[ I will next time ]. It's okay. It's okay.

I would like to take the opportunity to say a few words before we close. We really need to close, but I take your point on collaboration.

Of course. Of course.

Richard, last few words from your side?

Okay. And just then quickly on collaboration. I think that is going to be the key to finding solutions going forward. And just as an example, when we came to the first air lubrication system, we collaborated with the shipyard. We wanted to see if it would work on LNGs. They wanted to also get knowledge in this space, and so we ended up with a cost, somewhat, share between us on that as a test program. And I think those kinds of concepts will go forward in other areas as well. And I think with the charters, we maintain an active dialogue with them. They're looking for solutions. We're looking for solutions for future ships, and we find that those come into charter requirements going forward. And that then helps pull the industry forward ourselves and others.

Thank you very much. And I would like -- with this, I would like to thank you all for participating in this very interesting discussion. I'm sure we could continue speaking about this topic for hours, but this is the end of our panel. I'm pretty sure this is going to be a very important part of the solution moving forward, energy efficiency. And I'm very glad to continue actually all these exchanges with all of you. Thank you very much and hope to see you soon.

Thank you. Great panel.