Catcha Digital Berhad (CATCHA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to our Q3 2024 online investor briefing for Catcha Digital Berhad. As usual, it will be me running the call and the overall agenda, it's going to be me just running through again for some of the new joiners, what we do as a company and our plan moving forward. And then I'll give an update on our financials for the latest quarter and then a few updates on the business side of things as a refresher on some of the things that we announced in the previous quarter. So more of a follow-up update for all our investors. So to start with, I'm going to quickly go through our investor presentation, so for the benefit of the new joiners, people who have just joined us for the first time. Overall -- our overall mission is to really build a #1 digital group in Southeast Asia, riding on the fast-growing global digital economies, specifically on the digital advertising space, which is contributing massively on the global advertising expenditure in general and also the growth in enterprise software. As some of you may know, we really think about this as a phased approach, right? So on the first phase with the acquisition of iMedia as a company, we have started building out a very strong core operating business. In Phase 2 where we are right now, we're really actively looking for opportunities to invest or to acquire digital companies, could be media, could be software. That really have a long-term sustainable advantage and continue to grow from the scale and then strengthen the product suite that we have before we think about going regional in Phase III. In essence, there's really 4 things that encapsulate what we do right. So number one, we build and acquire great entrepreneurial and then profitable digital businesses. Two, we support and coach them with best practices and with the cash that we generate from these businesses, we then reinvest them in growth and M&A in a very disciplined and programmatic way. And ultimately, we want to create long-term shareholder value with sustainable profit and sustainable cash flow. And then we'll break it down to a balanced and a proven approach in creating long-term shareholder value. So really, there's 4 things that matter to us to compound and grow earnings per share as a company. One, we grow the top line, to make sure we sell very effectively, very efficiently and then we expand our margin with a very lean and tight operations, and we make good, highly accretive acquisitions to our shareholders. that are highly synergistic at reasonable price. And with that, we have a very good strong cash flow that will allow us to keep doing on those again and again and again. In the last few investor presentation, we talked about programmatic M&A, and I want to just clear refresh around what we do. I will try to just focus on really the main point. So generally, there are 2 types of M&A that we do at the Catcha Digital. One is a platform acquisition where the business is already strong independently or we can continue to build it using a buy-and-build approach where we add on a bunch of different acquisitions. So on the right-hand side, that's what I meant by acquisitions. These are typically product and offerings that allow us to expand geographically or product-wise or it could be upstream or downstream vertical expansion or horizontal expansion. Or it could be a small operations to help kind of bolt on to our core business and help expand our offering to our customers or some kind of subdivision buildup. And the criteria that we look at in these 2 types of acquisitions, differs slightly. So on the platform side, we really pay a lot of attention on the financials and the track record of the business and the predictability and margins of the business overall. Whereas for add-on acquisitions, typically, we're looking for smaller businesses. Sometimes they are profitable, sometimes they are not but we always need to have a very strong conviction that if they are not profitable, they will turn profitable very quickly, very soon with bolting on their business to our platform business. Broadly, all the deal structures are guided by a 20% IRR, so that we create a very EPS-accretive investment structure. In a more kind of straightforward terms, it really means 4 things. Typically these businesses are valued anywhere from 4x to 9x profit multiple. They have free cash flow growth of between 5% to 20% a year. Typically, our deals are tranched over 24 to 48 months to manage risk for us. Typically performance -- the payments are tied to performance and profit guarantee. And mostly, we do more than 51% acquisition by and large. So some of the key criteria that we look at when we are valuing our companies, these are by no means exhaustive. These are some of the key ones that we really look at. So for example, if they are growing faster, then we tend to value them a little bit more, profit margin higher and is sustainable, then we tend to value them better. If the business has -- gives us higher profit guarantee, we value them a little bit more. And then on the flip side, if it's highly reliant on a single person, then profit multiple tend to be a bit lower on the hygiene of the finance and then the kind of secretarial side of things, it is not good, then we tend to value them less. And our team of investments really follow a very structured in step process, right, from not prospecting to executing the deal. The whole idea is that it has to be very methodical, so we can scale this. So it's not up to me, is not up to the board. It's not up to everyone. Everyone adheres to a structured step process, and we do what we need to go through the process and make sure that we tick all the boxes and have very clear check and balances when do all these deals and everyone adheres to a rule booklet. In the past presentation, I've used the dating funnel as a technology to our M&A funnel and all these numbers are obviously illustrative, but I don't now go on and [indiscernible] so many people. And -- but broadly speaking, when we think about doing M&A, it's really like a sales or marketing funnel or in the more layman terms a dating funnel, right? So we need a hundreds of companies. We meet -- sorry, we see hundreds of companies we may meet. I mean 20%, 30% of them. I don't really assess how many of them are like high potential that we want to be together with and then calibrate expectations when it comes to life and marriage and kids, et cetera. Then we present our parents and then we get engaged and then subsequently get married. In the case of M&A, it's really very similar, so as of yesterday. So this is a number for our latest, latest funnel where we actually have more than actually probably a little bit more than 3,500 companies that we track in our database. We have met to date, and these are non-repeated meetings, right? So these are 640 meetings in the last 17 months. And I want to stress that this is no double counting. So if you count some of the deals that we have to meet the founders more than 10x to get the LOI stage, it wouldn't be captured here. So there's a lot of time spent on being confident and understanding the business. And then we assess about 300 companies. We started negotiating with 10 and then about 16 to our investment committee, and then we today have about 9 LOI signed, some of which you will hear from us very, very soon as coming to tail end of some of the deals that we're going to make announced under the market over the next couple of weeks, fingers crossed, no surprises. And all the things I've just mentioned has been done by the team, right? So this is not something that's new. The only thing that I want to stress is that normal that the team from the Board all the way to the management team has significant ownership, right? So we have very much have a lot of -- very much incentivized to really deliver the performance of our shareholders. And some of you may have been familiar with some of the companies that Catcha has been involved in, in our previous life in our parent call. So [indiscernible] company got acquired by Kasem a few years back for close to MYR 900 million and we have also been involved in iProperty, which was acquired for MYR 2.3 billion in 2015. And these are all companies that were built through a series of acquisitions, coupled with the fact that we are in high-growth environment, strong tailwind, great operators, right? So it's a combination of organic and inorganic growth. Before I go through the details of the update, I will just use a case study, right, just to illustrate what I meant in the last 5 minutes of talking about our acquisition strategy. So as I mentioned about platform acquisitions. So I'll use a live example, right? So when we acquired iMedia and completed the transaction last year. Imedia Is really a platform acquisitions where we can build a bunch of businesses on top of that and then cross-sell them, grow all these businesses purely from a synergy standpoint. And the whole idea was we have 1 team that helps sell all the advertising content from all these businesses. So you can see on the right-hand side, these are all typically quite small businesses prior to joining forces with us, once you combine them under 1 roof, you can think of us like a one-stop solution for our clients where they want digital media and whatever languages, any demographic Malaysia. Today, we touch 20 million of them. So this is really like the imedia business, right? So We, as a company, will have acquired all these brands. And then we have some that we have to partner with and entities the business that we own today -- we have some partnerships in the out-of-home space, and we also own 1 screen in [indiscernible]. We have partners in the in-person marketing space and also we have our own small agencies. And we're gradually expanding into different verticals and different formats. On the left hand side are some of the examples of our clients, right? So they would come to us and get access to all of them, right? So in isolation, maybe in the past, for example, we to go directly to them. And then imagine 14 brands go directly to brands like [indiscernible], right, like how do they help to manage all these things. So that's where we come in as a one-stop shop, sometimes working directly with the brand owners, sometimes working with the agencies that they work with. So just to -- and we are not an agency per se. We are really a media owner, and then we work with the brands. We work with the brands, the agencies to really help them reach their customers effectively. And ultimately, we want to offer a one-stop online/offline digital media solutions to our clients. And since the acquisition, we acquired, it may look a little bit on the higher end at about 12x PE, and then a few years in really the implied is 7.5x because we've grown the business massively, improved the margin significantly as well as the business. These are some of the examples where we -- maybe between 2x to 7x the profit or turn around the business after we took over the stake within 2 to 3 years. And these are the companies that today we own. Between 4 companies we own 100%. One, we own 60%. These are all details that are publicly available, but basically, the idea is that we bought them at what sometimes may seem like an expensive price, but then over time, it actually becomes a lot cheaper once you consider the value add that we bring to the table, and it just drives down the price after we acquired initial stake. We also massively increase the profit. Looking ahead, we -- in the media space, we want to continue to acquire businesses within the publishing space. So these are all digital brands that we today own and then we want to find more -- have business, meaning non-overlapping audience. So horizontal, meaning more mass market vertical means a little bit more industry specific. It could be finance, it could be automotive, it could be property. That's very industry-specific. And at our homes a pillar that we actively look at because it's highly synergistic to our existing business that we can help our plan connect with their consumers or their customers a lot more effectively with this bridge between the online and the offline world and then also in the in-person marketing space, we're actively looking for events or expo's that can help our client, again, engage with the audience in person as well, which we have started doing organically bit by bit too. So ultimately, we want to acquire and partner with businesses that can broaden our advantage as a one-stop digital media solution provider. On the software side, very similar to what we say, exactly the same as what we discussed last time. We won B2B businesses in a niche category, mission critical, high switching costs, good financial characteristics not predictable, proven track record, decent margin and ultimately, the people that we can work with and you will see announcement coming up in weeks to come. So done with like a refresher for all the new joiners here. So thanks for bearing with me all the loyal supporters of Catcha Digital that has probably hit this like 25 times in the last 12 months. And on the financial performance side, I'll just give a quick snapshot. So we recently announced our Q3 results. It's very much in line with our expectation. It's a very strong quarter for us. We have the highest revenue of $11 million for the quarter, and we -- and then on the gross margin side, also very strong for us. Has grown on a year-on-year basis on the revenue side, about 55% and on a profit after tax level, about 120%. And on the PATAMI level, we have grown 277% over the last quarter. So I think maybe as a point to think about is, I think our -- I think the quarter would have been a lot better if we strip off the nonoperating costs like the due diligence on the M&A, but no granted like we don't want to spend too much time carving out costs just to window dress our number. Like the number is strong. Our M&A pipeline is getting very active. As part of it, our due diligence cost has also crept up. But obviously, it's supported by a strong underlying growth in the business. And the last time we spoke also, I think we had a few initiatives I mentioned, hey, the economy is a bit challenging with the war, political uncertainty and we started going into like more omnichannel method to provide a more complete advertising solution for our customers. And really, some of them has really paid off for us very much, which I will go into a little bit more detail in the following slides. So for example, we had outdoor cinema Okay, our partnership with [indiscernible] to launch a new show, which went live in September, October also was very well received. I'll go into a bit more detail later on. For existing business operations, we continue to build on our existing core business and will seek out for opportunity to improve our business as well. On the acquisition front, we're actively pursuing opportunities. We have many deals in the pipeline that we are pushing very hard to close. And some of the process have taken a little bit longer than we would like. But mostly, it's just to make sure that we do enough preparation work before this SME get folded into a PLC, and we don't want any issues to integrate them with our business mostly from a legal and financial standpoint. And we have seen that and experience those horror moments and none of us wants to relieve that. So we'd rather spend a little bit more time and be patient to make sure these businesses are ready to be part of a PLC and gradually integrate them rather than forcing a deal when they are not ready. And then in the end, it's bad news for all of us. So that's it, you will hear more updates from us in the next couple of weeks before the year ends on the acquisition front. In summary, I think the underlying business is doing very well in line with our expectation. There are many opportunities and acquisitions that we're actively pursuing which we hope to see -- come to fruition in the foreseeable future. On the business update, there's 2 key areas that I would really highlight very similar to our previous updates, right? So I'm going to talk a little bit about the new media format specifically on the new show in [indiscernible] and some of the more core advertising we have been doing and really in-person marketing to really complete the online to offline integration. So done. Some of you that followed us last quarter would probably remember this bit where we were launching an outdoor cinema a music festival, really helping to connect to the offline customers, right? So the idea is, hey, like you have been a customer with us. You're our main client and advertisers imedia for the longest time. How do we help you connect better with your end consumers and this is like the genesis of it. These are some old slides. So we say we're going to do this. And then basically, I'm just going to -- I want to give an update there. We said we're going to do this, and then we have done this, right? And this is the post-event summary where the event itself generated 4.5 million of mine value to advertisers. And then if you combine all the reach that we arrive for our brands, meaning how many people have seen this heard about this on the Internet and offline, there is like 5.5 million people, right? And then of which there's 7.5 million impression online. So the competitive advantage for us is actually quite simple, right? Because today, we have a lot of clients, including GrabFood and all the Tier 1 advertisers that you may have seen the logos are plastered everywhere. We want to be able to offer them more value. And the whole idea is that the more value we offered, the longer our customers stay where the more they spend first, right? So it's all about increasing average revenue spend per customer with us and everything, I think, how do we get you to spend from $1 million to $2 million to $3 million every single year with us. Now the second is really no brands want to advertised omnichannel. And with -- although it then combined for online digital media, we really allow our advertisers to connect with their customers very effectively across different channels. And ultimately, brand ones will remain top of mind. They don't care whether it is on the piece of website or social media. They want to be everywhere, and we will be there for them to make them appear everywhere. And ultimately, we have a very unique advantage where we own our media brand set that actually touches about 20 million Malaysians every single month through all the orders that we have. And this gives us virtually unlimited budget promote our events to the Malaysian audience. And this is really a big leverage for us as a media owner and ultimately, it's a win-win proposition to all of them. So before I move to the next, I'll just play[indiscernible]. [Presentation]

So this is a post event video summary. So no, I wanted to share this, so everyone knows roughly what we mean by the whole online to offline integration. So this is really a -- the off-line portion -- the online is all over the Internet. So if you quickly Google [indiscernible], you'll see everything that we have done to promote the event. And actually, most importantly, promoting the advertisers that advertise with us. This event we generated about $1.4 million in revenue and $200,000 in profit after tax which is also 1 big contributor to a very stellar results this quarter as well. So the next thing I want to -- this is more of a cool factor that I want to share with our investors today. So in the past quarter, we have started experimenting with a more, I guess, innovative advertising ideas, right? It's a bit more out there. I thought it would be pretty interesting for us to really put some examples and kind of visualize what it means. So this is a product that we call augmented reality advertising or really, you can call it a virtual effect advertising. These are 2 examples from the very successful campaign that we overdelivered deliverables with Celcom Digital the lab and then Unilever on the right. So this is our cabin with Celcom DG. And then let me play the one on the right. So these are some examples where we really try to pioneer new advertising format in Malaysia and help captivate the audience. In the years to come, you will see more and more of this on social media for a few reasons. So 1 is really -- it's actually very high leverage and high ROI to do this. It's very affordable to create like visual -- virtual effects or augmented reality in this case, right. Because imagine you want to create a fake luggage that is like 100x a human size. It is virtually impossible. And even if you want to do it, it's going to cost a lot of money to make it very realistic, right? So in our case, technology actually solved this problem for us. No marginal cost and we can create this really on using the tools and the expertise that we have. So that's on the cost side, right. On the value side, what the cost is very, very affordable. The leverage and the extent to which these can reach and spark conversation on lines at highly valuable to our clients. And this is really why I kind of screen short a few comments that we got online where netizens are actually just participating in the conversation, right? So you can see like I say, like we need an okay extra luggage fee for this some of the online netizens say, this is like a virulin right? So this is like how advertising should be. So this is the activity that we want. We don't want people to just watch and look at something and then just move on. I want people to talk about this, about it. And this is really the philosophy of all the advertisers that we have with us that they want to do something, call something innovative, something that's out there, and we are the partner to do them, do it with them. And not only are we just -- we are not just a media owner, right. We will work with our clients to make sure that whatever that they do with us, advertising is a will have the longest mileage and 1 of the coolest stuff that they will ever do in their life. So this is really our philosophy. And finally, I want to give an update about CS Loggi. So a few refresher slides for maybe some of the new joiners as well. Last quarter, we announced that we have formed a JV with [indiscernible] and some of you may know them as the host of [indiscernible]. Some of you may be more familiar with them on the political team but basically, they started a podcast a year ago, and it just went viral really quickly. We formed a partnership with them to launch a lifestyle brand that's less politics, like but mostly about the day-to-day stuff. And the content has since gone live since September and October. And last time in our previous presentation, we share like I suppose a pizza before it went live. And since then, everything has gone live, and we already got like sponsors lineup as our programs are more like casual, where you see on top with them, get ready with them. And I want to share 1 particular update that I thought it's very relevant. So we have a very, very successful launch sponsored by MG motors. As you know, it's a British brand. And when we outperformed the deliverables by 1.5x to 7x right on different formats. And I wanted to share some of these so you also understand what we mean by that, right? How do we weave the brand and the content itself together so that they achieve 2 purposes. One, the brands get to be put out there, advertised to the desired audience very effectively. Two, our audience like don't feel like it's us in their face all the time when it comes to promotions. So on the left-hand side, you see some snippets of video, I will play. This one is bit shorter. And then I'll play a little bit parts of this video on the left-hand side. So you know roughly what I mean by that. [Presentation]

So I will pause at that, right? So as you can see, like there is a main video and then we have snippets that really pulls from the content itself. And as part of the advertising deal with MG Motors, we also get to use their car for some of the episodes that we produce. And if you go to our [indiscernible] page, you will also see a few other sponsored content from brands such as Honor, Vigo and [indiscernible] there will be a lot more consumer brands that you know that have -- that will become sponsors and that have become a sign up that we may not be in a position to announce right now. But I think I just want to share that for an online content that attracted the lineup of sponsors that we have attracted it's unheard of in this part of the world. We could only do that mainly because we already have existing base of clients that we work very closely with. And reading this, again, is a highly synergistic cross-selling product that we have that can really tap into the network of customers that we have. As you can see, no great results, great case study, in fact, for all of our upcoming customers. And I highly encourage everyone here to follow not just [indiscernible] but every pages that we own on social media or the websites that we own. So we get a better sense of what we do as a business and suggest the improvements that we can do as a business as well. So all feedback is very, very much welcome at all times. So with that, I will conclude my sharing. I'll move on to the Q&A session. So as usual, we'll take questions in the comment section. So anything that you want to ask us drop in the comment box and I'll address them 1 by one.

All right. We've got Zain asking. Thanks for the kind words. The team worked very hard, very, very hard to deliver all these results and appreciate your complement, our passes across. On DS Services due diligence and acquisition, we expect an extension. And the reason is mostly a procedural stuff. So in the past, it was delayed mostly because due diligence took a lot longer -- negotiation took a lot longer, but now because we are prepping the deal for an AGM and AGM will only likely happen early next year. So we have to extend it, but this is mostly a procedural [indiscernible]. Is get slightly current contributing possibility to the group earnings. Yes, it's been profitable since day 1. The cost to run the business actually quite minimal. Like we spent less than 50,000 to get things going. And for example, MG that 1 that sponsor that you saw gave us straight away MYR 140,000 in revenue just by launching it. So again, just to reiterate, it is possibly contributing to our profit definitely. And I also want to stress that this is like unheard of for a lot of digital media businesses, typically, it takes a while to really build up, but it's only possible because we already have a network of clients that we can tap in to. So whereas in new media business, we have to build the content, go talk to potential advertisers. We already have advertisers lined up before we even launched the content. So we pretty much go to MG and not cut the deal before the first content is even live. So you have answered [indiscernible] question. Yes, it's already contributing positively to our group's earnings. Can we add something more M&A news coming up? What we can say is what I've presented just now. So we have 9 LOI life. We expect a few to be announced from a completion of due diligence and signing of SSG perspective in the next coming weeks. So I will just ask everyone to stay tuned. So Jason asked from signing LOI and start due diligence until finish, it takes how many months on average to close. This is a question where a lot -- it really depends. So there are some that will take -- I think typically, it will take at least 2 to 3 months to really get it done. And there are certain times where it really extends like to 6, 9, 12 months for various different reasons. And sometimes it's not because -- I could give some example. Some vendors, the way they are run as a private company is a bit messier. So from a hygiene standpoint, it takes a little longer for our DD to be completed because they can furnish information in time. We have to really help them figure out all these things to is that certain companies don't prepare management accounts on a month-to-month basis. And for us, it's very important to get the latest on the business so that we know what we're getting ourselves into. They know what they're selling. So those sometimes will take time. And sometimes it's a negotiation, right? So we have agreed on high-level terms, but you know the devil is often in the details. And then LOI sometimes may not clearly find certain things in the SA stage -- it takes a lot longer to agree on a few certain things. Or there could be items in shareholders' agreement where there may be controlling the items where both parties can really agree off hand, it takes some time to really mediate, to really agree on a middle ground solution. So that sometimes could also take a bit of time. So overall, I think those -- on average, I would say, 3 to 6 months will get it done, but there are occasions where it takes a lot longer than we would like. And those -- I think it's really on an ad-hoc basis. ZK is asking how is Q4 result looking? As ZK knows -- and as ZK would probably know this better than me, but I think I would just point everyone back to our 2023 result. To -- as a reference of kind of seeing what the next is going to look like. For clients normally incur more and expenses during the year as end of the year to exhaust all budgets. I think there's definitely some truth to that. Q4 in some years could be better, but it really depends on, for example, when Chinese U.S. will be, when [indiscernible] going to be. So I would just I would agree with you. Generally, that's the approach. But I would also say, I think we can reference like the seasonality of a quarter-to-quarter basis in the previous year as an example. You would also be able to see from our balance sheet and kind of do some kind of educated guess on how the next quarter is going to look like. So I will leave at that. So asked, are you expecting current PATAMI growth to continue at the current levels ordered by existing organic growth by the portfolio companies or would you further acquisitions to sustain the growth levels. I think by and large, our expectation for organic growth every year is anywhere between 0% to 25% for all the business that we're involved in. As for my expectation on the PATAMI growth for the next years to come. So you can expect organic growth from our ex portfolio companies -- and then on top of that, we would use -- we will leverage on M&A to really grow even further than that. So I think to be maybe more pedantic in the use of words, I wouldn't say we would need for the acquisition to sustain the growth level. But I would say we would need further acquisitions to really supercharge the growth on. But as a business, I think we are in a pretty good space. Anita asked, is double-digit growth for annual top and bottom lines achievable. This is a tough question to answer, my sponsor is here and then they'll probably scream at me, if I give any definitive answer. But broadly, I would say, this is our target. We are not in a position to commit but it's a target that we have every single year to make sure we grow top and bottom line in the double-digit [indiscernible]. So I would just leave it at that. Alvin asked, clients currently supporting the company's sales and churn rate frequency of engaging any contracts. So from our digital media standpoint, I can -- what I can say is that no 1 customers contribute to, say, more than 3% to 5% of our business. So it's very spread out across a very big pool of clients. Churn rate is a very tough question to answer because most of our clients will spend with us every year. The question is how much and in what shape and forms, right? And in terms of frequency of so on a churn rate point, we can't really look at it as like a SaaS business where 1 year, you're in the other year out completely. So it's like a budget that moves a little bit depending on the economy. But the good news is that most brands will spend with us regularly every year. The question is how much. So our job is to make sure that it goes up, not that it comes down. And that ties to the next point about frequency of engaging. And we have a team of salespeople or account managers that deal with our clients quite regularly to make sure that they have the right information and tools in place, are well informed about the new products and then spend more with us. So it's ongoing, right? So every day, every month, every week, they will be engaging with the clients. As for the contract signs, it's not a typical sort of like annually, I'm going to spend x number with you with the exception of a few customers generally speaking. But because it's a fairly mature industry, there's a fairly mature practices and spending with all the Tier 1 corporates and MNCs and FMCGs reversal, fairly, fairly predictable. Jason asked, "Hey, can you give us more insight, [indiscernible] operating costs coming I think for now, we have made it a point not to single it up because, number one, we don't own majority of the business. So in our books, it's actually isolated as an associate. But we're happy to consider putting more information into our updates moving forward as and when it becomes more material. But as a business in terms of the margins profile, et cetera, is very similar to all the other businesses. So you can use that as a benchmark in that sense. Kim asked, is Catcha the largest digital media group in Malaysia, Who are your current direct competitors, what are your advantages compared to terms. So strictly speaking from a digital media standpoint, the really most direct comparables that we get compared a lot to its REFMedia Group owned by Media Prima, I think the key difference -- the key difference would be our audience are typically a little bit younger. Our content a little bit more varied in terms of how people consume content with our brands, whereas I think the brands that are under the flag of REFMedia Group is generally slightly older, targeting a slightly different audience. So I would say those will be the key distinction. But what is quite interesting as an industry is that unlike many other industries where you can only buy with 1 provider in our case, actually, quite often, our customers will buy with multiple media group, right? Because ultimately, they want to work with the most innovative companies that will help them reach their clients and continue to give brand awareness. So to them, the right way to do things is actually to spend with everyone. And then the question is then how do we get more of the budget than the other group, right? So 1 is really our core traffic and audience and then 2 is really the idea and innovative solutions that we can provide to our customers. So I would say that's probably the way to look at it. Is your approach to capital structure and competing future deals are the banks or is it the acquisition approach. So by and large, the pecking order is that for small deals, we will use internal cash for deals that will require financing, we will try to finance it with bank facilities, and we have live kind of negotiation with some banks that we're near final. So we would tap into that. were not possible to tap into debt financing, we would then need to raise money from an equity standpoint, and that will be a combination of right issue equity placements and the likes of that. In new cars, you will see more kind of announcement coming out tied to some of these acquisitions, and you will get a sense of how it is like. But overall approach is want to balance out using that and also equity. And the whole idea is that we will only take enough that, that we feel very comfortable and fairly conservative and don't overstretch our balance sheet but at the same time in a way that really minimizes any unnecessary dilution to our shareholders. So that's kind of how we think about it. I'll take the last question. I mean as a company engaged with last FMCG distributor did let take over the marketing job. So we don't take over anyone's marketing job to them, they treat us as a way to advertise the product. So this distributor. I think every distributor works a little bit differently. But my message with the brand owners to promote the brand of the product, right? So it could be a Sunset could be Celcom DG, but we don't take anyone's marketing job. The distributor have their way to promote and there are advantages of having a very extensive distribution channels. Our job is really to help them to maintain top of mind so that whenever a consumer wants a Kitkat, they think about Kitkat, consumer wants chocolate, they think about Kitkat or a consumer wants to drink soft drinks they think about Pepsi or they want to order food delivery, they think about GrabFood. So that's really the overall approach. Okay, last question. Last question. Time is up. So [indiscernible] asked. So at what point our stage whether from a revenue EBITDA or a gearing perspective complete Phase III regional expansion. I don't want to commit to anything at the moment. Our focus remains in the next couple of years, really be the #1 in what we do. From a geographical standpoint for some of the businesses really is meaning we want to be the #1 and undisputed number one. So we don't get distracted. So I wouldn't put a time line to that. But really, I will remain very focused on delivering good numbers in the near term and become the #1 in whatever market that we are currently at before we think about a Phase III regional expansion. So the philosophy is that we'd rather be #1 in 1 country, then to be the #2 and #3 in 5 countries because that's very little value in being #2 and #3 in multiple countries. So we'll only expand regionally when we feel like we are ready to really be the #1 in wherever that we go or whatever that we do. All right. This is a very active Q&A. Love it, we are out of time. So as usual, you'll have my e-mail, [email protected], feel free to e-mail me directly. If have further questions, clarification, feedback. Deck will be up on our website by the end of the day and keep in touch, and I look forward to seeing you guys in the next update. Thank you.