CD Projekt S.A. (CDR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good day, and Welcome to the CD Projekt Group Strategy Update Conference Call. Today's conference is being recorded. At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Adam Kicinski. Please go ahead, sir. Sir, please go ahead. You are now live, please go ahead.

Adam is talking? Or we are the only ones who do not...

Hello. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the conference call dedicated to the CD Projekt Group strategy update. My name is Adam Kicinski, and I'll run this call together with Piotr Nielubowicz and Michal Nowakowski. The video presenting the group strategy update as well as the strategy presentation are both available on our corporate website, cdprojekt.com. I hope you had the time to walk through the materials. Let's kick off with a Q&A session. We are ready to take your questions.

[Operator Instructions] And we'll take our first question from Omar Sheikh with Morgan Stanley.

I'm going to start off with a couple of easy questions for you. Adam, maybe if you could start with just outlining exactly what you have in the development pipeline. I mean, noticed from your comments that you're streamlining the process, but I just want to clarify, for example, whether you still plan to release 2 expansions for Cyberpunk? How many free DLCs you're planning for this year? And whether you plan a multiplayer at some point? And obviously, whether or not you plan -- still plan to release a new AAA game, which I always presume is going to be The Witcher sequel. That's the first question. Secondly, on Cyberpunk specifically, could you maybe update us on when you expect the game to be fully reinstated on all of the console stores, in particular, the PlayStation Store? And where exactly you are post the way you think you are in the process of fully fixing all of the games, perfecting it, after your release of your second patch? And then finally, on the capacity headcount of the company, could you just give us a current number of your developer headcount where you are today? And where you hope to be, say, on a 1-year timeframe and on a 3 to 5-year timeframe? Because clearly, one of the focuses of your strategy seems to be ensuring you have the capacity to work on more than one project at any one time. So it would just be helpful to get some sense of where you'd like your developer headcount to end up? That's my 3 questions.

Omar, so starting from the first one. Well, what we just said in our strategy update, we're changing a bit our policy regarding -- talking about the future unannounced projects. So following this, we are limiting our discussions about projects which are not announced yet. I can confirm, we are working on expansions, nothing's changed here. Regarding online, we are changing our approach. So we are -- we want to have online in our future games definitely, but step by step. So we are working on specific features, enhancing our single players, but we are not working on releasing the next game with online experience. So we'll be enhancing our single player games with online experience. Maybe I'll pass the second to Michal Nowakowski.

This is Michal Nowakowski. The second question was, if I recall correct, about the comeback to the PSN, right? So regarding this process, we have published several patches. We have just published a really big one yesterday, and we have published several hot fixes, and each and every one of them brings us closer to going back to that to the PSN Store. However, the final decision, you have to understand, belongs to Sony. We do believe we close it in further, but of course, the final call is their's. So let's wait and see.

So I'll take the third one. Adam, again. So of course, we want to grow our team, especially in tech-related areas. We just announced we are acquiring studio in Vancouver, our long-term term partner, and based on this, we want to grow our Vancouver team. And here in Poland, we are recruiting, and we are looking for some other opportunities. And we are enhancing our cooperation with our sources, but it's too early to discuss any numbers, but we have to grow, we want to grow. And that's the goal. But it's too early to provide with any precise numbers.

Okay, Adam. But just to follow-up on that last point. I think your last strategy plan for the 4 years up to 2021 was to double the headcount of developers. Is -- if we're thinking about maybe the next 4 or 5 years, would it be to do the same again? Or would it be more incremental?

Could be the same. It could be the same. I mean, many depends on how we can hire and work kind of M&A opportunities we will approach. So as I said, I don't want to provide with any precise number, but could be doubling as well as previously.

Our next question comes from Nick Dempsey with Barclays.

It's Nick Dempsey. So just a couple of questions. So first of all, if we're not going to get Cyberpunk multiplayer as a new launch, can you give us some -- a rough idea of when we might expect a sizable new slug of revenues to come from the project? With simple folk, we have models. We'd love to know whether we have a spike up in our models in '23, '24, '25. And just on the online comments that you've made. So I mean, our experience of looking at video games companies take 2, for example, is the what really works with online is PVP, multiplayer games. You yourself have success there as well. I mean, at the moment, Cyberpunk can -- and The Witcher aren't in that category. I'm not quite sure I can envisage how adding online to the games as they currently are would work well for the community. So can you give us a little bit more color on how you might be able to add online to your franchises without creating, as I've talked previously, an entirely new multiplayer? And the third question, you've mentioned adding headcount, you've mentioned sort of parallel development. Can we assume that your costs are going to rise even versus where they were kind of in 2020 over the next couple of years before we get a new launch?

I'll start with the first one, as we announced in the strategy, we currently focus on fixing and updating Cyberpunk. We also confirmed the DLCs to be developed and released to gamers. As far as Cyberpunk is concerned, we also confirm the next-gen update for this year. And within The Witcher universe, we planned The Witcher Monster Slayer mobile game from Spokko, and the next-gen update for this year as well. And at the same time, we believe this isn't the right time to discuss specific long-term publishing plans. We are focusing on ongoing large-scale transformation of the studio and our new future. And we do not want to talk about announced projects at this time yet for horizon longer than what is to be released this year.

I'll take the second one, Adam. So talking about designs of our online ideas, well, the only what we can share is that we'll have different strategy, but we are not providing any details how we want to enrich our single-player games. But of course, we have very strong ideas and prototypes, and we are working on this. Actually, we started working on online components over 2 years ago, and we just continued -- the only change is that we continue to work on it, not as a main production line. But it's a supportive production line together with our single player production, but we believe that our ideas once they will be reviewed, will be very exciting for games as an extra experience in our world, which fits our single player games. One more question about cost of hiring employees. Could you please repeat it? Or make it more precise.

I'm just interested in understanding -- we understand roughly where the cost base is in 2020 around the Cyberpunk launch. Will that sort of level of cost is something that we should expect in the next few years with perhaps some of the marketing from that cycle going away, but then offset by hiring more people and doing some of the good things to the studios you've been describing.

Most of the marketing expenditures were financed and will be booked into last year's results. I mean, all those related to Cyberpunk launch. This year, we will have some additional costs of servicing, touching and averaging Cyberpunk, but all of the expenditures and developing new projects are capitalized. So we will not see this directly in our P&L of this year. They will be capitalized on the time horizon of the development and then depreciate it into our P&L upon release of each of the project. So from this perspective, nothing changes comparing to the historical way we booked and presented all of the expenditures and development.

And we'll take our next question from Ken Rumph with Jefferies.

If I could ask a couple of questions. The first one, there's a reference about for the multitrack development, which you talked about in the past that the desire to be doing that and the challenges, and you refer to kind of getting ready to be doing that in 2022. Does that imply that you have not been working on, for instance, new games in The Witcher universe with the exception of Monster Slayer? Because I think, certainly, people assumed that you've been doing some work on -- and again, in that universe. And also frankly, there are people in the organization, concept artist, who can hardly be helping with Cyberpunk at this stage. My second question is to try and clear up for me at least, maybe for the audience, kind of the online multiplayer question. You seem to be saying that you want to have an online element of the single player game. Am I understanding that correctly that you don't propose a multiplayer because I could play the game with Stadia and call that online, but it's somehow a richer experience but a single player game online? Or am I misunderstanding that you're planning some kind of social experience, if I call it that. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but I'm certainly not clear about quite what you do and don't plan online.

Adam here. So answering the first question, we are more focused on Cyberpunk in terms of fixes in terms of next-gen update as we previously planned. That's for sure. Of course, not everyone is on Cyberpunk, but we don't want to announce any new projects, and that's why we are trying not to talk about anything which is not announced. So this is a part of our new policy not to build too much expectations, but not whole team. I'm talking about AAA development is working on Cyberpunk. So there are some other things in works, but we deliberately decided to say that proper parallel development will start next year because we are transforming this today at the same time. So we need some time for new methods for transformation and some more focus on -- still on Cyberpunk. And after this, the first size of the transformation because we won't transform the way we work in one year, but I believe that after one year, we can sum up where we are. And then you can talk more about how the team is divided into development. Answering the second question is simple, and we are referring to multiplier. So we are not talking about online, anything like Stadia. No, no, we are talking about some kind of multiplayer. So people playing together.

Okay. That's great. Can I ask a follow-up on that point about parallel development?

Sure.

Does it require new people, new skills to be brought in? Or is it kind of something -- obviously, you intend to recruit so that will help. But is it kind of, we can't do this until we get people who have certain skills? Or is it that we're working on it, it's a process, and new recruits will be part of it, but not a necessary condition kind of?

It's not a necessary condition. Of course, we will recruit, we'll build our technical muscles, but it's more about changing the way we work and changing more to agile because this is part of our plan to be much more agile in terms of methodology of the framework, how the work is organized. And we need some time for this because we haven't tried it yet in this development. Agile was implemented into brand development some time ago, and it works great. So now we know that means sometimes to reorganize how we work to start in full speed working on 2 franchises.

Our next question comes from Robert Berg with Berenberg.

Just a couple of questions from me. First, as a follow-up, actually to, I guess, the previous 2 sets of questions on the line. It feels like you're -- maybe putting words in your mouth, taking a less ambitious view on multiplayer Cyberpunk. I think, historically, you had the view to put a decent chunk of the Cyberpunk team into that AAA multiplayer game. But how should we think about the size of your online team now? And if it is smaller, where are you reprioritizing these people? Is it -- am I getting the impression you're putting a greater focus than before on getting The Witcher up and running and maybe taking some resource away from multiplayer? Or am I misreading what you're saying here? And the second question is, I just want to dig a bit deeper into why you're communicating less about your games. You've mentioned you don't want to talk about the future. And that's fair, and you want to announce things at a later date. But aside from allowing you to be more agile, which does make a lot of sense, did you have learnings from where financial expectations got to ahead of the release of Cyberpunk? And is this in any way an attempt to manage -- perhaps, manage better those expectations going forward?

So I'll start with the first one. We are not less ambitious. Actually, in terms of online, it's just a different way of going more step-by-step, less like releasing single player. And we are reorganizing things around this as well. We have a new approach. We have online and services part, which consist of CD PROJEKT RED and partially GOG as well. And based on this, we'll have -- I mean, in this unit, we'll have online development. So we are changing many things of organization-wise to make our work more efficient. And we are not providing numbers of how many people is working, but we continue working on those in this project, but in a different approach towards the final ultimate goal. As I said, step-by-step. So we are kind of derisking the project, but of course, we are not changing our ambition. Piotr, can you take the second?

Definitely, we learned on Cyberpunk launch many things among them that the projects shouldn't be highlighted or shouldn't be announced too early and promoted too early, building expectations when we are not ready to do this. And for future big releases, we aim on later initiation of marketing campaign, and at the same time, we would prefer to announce all of the upcoming things in annual cycles. So that's why we covered this year so precisely, but in case of longer-term things, as I mentioned, we plan to reorganize the studio, learn new ways of developing games, being more agile. And then when the time comes, announced games we these days, and give more guidance that we can reasonably give you today.

And just a quick follow-up, if I can. So in terms of financial guidance, I mean, many companies of your size give a guidance or some kind of nudge in the right direction with regards to financial? Are you still just allowing everybody to kind of remind at this stage about the plan going forward for the next few years?

Giving financial guidance for future periods. And for now, we have not changed approach to this. So there was never a guidance from us, and there is nothing like this as for now.

Our next question comes from Adrien de Saint Hilaire with Bank of America.

First of all, I know this is a strategy update, not an earnings call, but I was wondering if you could update us on the number of units sold for Cyberpunk since the last number you gave late December? And maybe if you could discuss the performance of the game on PC? And then about second question back to the strategy. So as far as I understand, you're saying that you can run the development of 2 AAA games at the same time. But should we assume that these come on the same year? Or could we envision that there are many years apart between those games?

So I can start with the sales. I mean the last time we've given the sales figures was the 13 million we announced post launch. And since we haven't posted the results yet, we're not giving any specific update just yet. You will have to wait for that for the actual moment when we post the results.

Our next question comes from Vladimir Bespalov with VTB Capital.

First, could you elaborate a little bit on what you are saying in your press release. So we also perceive the huge potential, both The Witcher and Cyberpunk, and we want to expand their reach, including areas, media and content types. What exactly does this mean? What kind of expansion to these new areas are you planning? And my second question will be on your planned M&A activities. So in particular, what kind of expertise from the headcount you are going to gain from the M&A activities that you're going to step-up? And are you going to move somewhere beyond, I would say, your core expertise right now, maybe more to mobile games or whatever? Maybe you could provide some color on that as well.

It's Michal Nowakowski again. So regarding the areas where we can expand the brand, we actually did speak about it in the presentation, I believe. So it's everything that we understand as part of the larger franchise. So -- and a lot of it, you can actually already see such as comic books, toys, merchandise connected with the game, but not only, I mean, we also expand the franchise going beyond the core name. You've seen that with Gwent in the past. You will see that with the AR game on mobile Monster Slayer. These are the announced projects we have on the -- within The Witcher franchise. And of course, we do plan to go in similar editions with Cyberpunk as well. With Cyberpunk, we also control the, say, movie region. So for example, we're doing -- working on the anime with triggers to Japan and Netflix CYBERPUNK: EDGERUNNERS. And there is more to be explored there. So this is more or less what we meant, a bigger, bigger franchise. And that is all coming from from the main game. The game is driving everything else and so on. Sorry, could you remind the second question? Second question was about the M&A, right, which is where we are planning to...

Yes. [indiscernible]

Okay. So right now as you're going to. Okay. So right now, as is the case with digital escapes in Canada. We're looking mainly at expanding our technical expertise, but we're open to other opportunities within that area. This is the main area of interest for us, I would say, at this very moment.

And I would jump on for a second is, there was one announced question about releasing -- releases in power development. Not revealing any future plans, I can just say that it's much wiser to not to accumulate releases in one year. So to have development in different phases when you have a development. So once a game is released, the second should be somewhere in the middle of development.

Our next question comes from Matthew Walker with Crédit Suisse.

The first one is, will you be doing paid DLC in 2022? The second question is just, could we get some more clarity on what you mean by multi -- online versus multiplayer? You mentioned online playing together. I don't think I'm the only person on the call who is somewhat confused by this definition about online versus multiplayer. So could you just explain how are you going to monetize this online? And what exactly is it? How is it different from multiplayer? Because I appreciate you don't want to reveal all your plans, but this is a pretty important thing that people have been waiting for quite a long time. So I think it's really important to be clear about what you mean on this. And then last question is, in terms of units, you don't want to give financial guidance, which I can understand. But what would be a reasonable range for a number of Cyberpunk units for 2021? You can frame it as whether you get back on the Sony Store or not, but just having some idea about what is feasible in terms of units for Cyberpunk? So those are my 3 questions.

Right. Regarding the first one, I mean, about the paid DLCs. First of all, there is a distinction for us, at least, between the DLCs and the expansions. I'd like to remind about that because DLC is something which is a smaller piece of content, which we have given in the past away for free within The Witcher 3, and that's the plan is still for Cyberpunk as well. Now when it comes to expansion, which is what the Blood and Wine and Hearts of Zone was in the past, that is a bigger thing. And these are paid and once we announce something like that for Cyberpunk, it will definitely be paid. I would rather not comment on the timing of that. This is a totally different story. And tying back that we were -- what we were saying in the presentation, we would like to announce things closer to the actual launch also for the proper marketing effect. So give us time on that. But yes, if you're talking about the expansions, those will still be the bigger chunks of coals, bigger chunks of infotainment to be produced for the gamers.

I'll take the second, Adam. We are talking about multiplayer, full stop. So we are referring to multiplayer elements within our games. And first and foremost, we have to be focused to make them fit to our single player experience. So it's too early to talk about monetization, but definitely, we want players to be able to have shared experience to play together in our game -- future games. So in some areas, I would say.

So why do you not call that multiplayer then? I'm still confused about why you don't call that multiplayer.

Well, actually, we can call it multiplayer. I mean, we use it for the same purposes, but maybe we were not too clear. So we can call it multiplayer elements as well. Sorry for that.

And on the range of units?

As the Cyberpunk sales for this year are concerned, first of all, they will -- I believe they will be driven by 2 major elements that we keep working on: First, patching and updating the game, and this should also result in coming back to the Sony store. Obviously, Sony's decision is mutated by many gamers, and we believe it may also influence the purchasing decisions of not only those playing on PlayStation, but also on other platforms. So this is important to us. And the second important milestone is the next-gen addition that we've done for the second half of this year. Since those events are still in front of us and are kind of unprecedented in our history. It's really hard to make reliable judgment on how the sales will increase after patching, after coming back to Sony, and how gamers will adopt the next-gen update, especially that we are planning to offer the next-gen additional Cyberpunk for free to all those who already purchased it on the old generation of consoles. So this is all in front of us. We believe it will have significant influence on the sales results, but at the same time, it's really hard to give you an educated guidance on where it will exactly lead us to.

Our next question comes from Martin Nowak with IPOPEMA Securities. We'll move on to our next question with Chirag with HSBC.

Just on the employee side, do you think it will be difficult to retain employees under the 2020 to '25 employee incentive program, given the high exercise price that's been set up for the market goal and the net profit goals as well for the result element. And the second question is just, could you give a bit more color on how employee morale is at the moment? And has there been a higher employee turnover than expected at this stage? Or is employee retention then increasing or decreasing?

Adam here. In terms of the program, well, it's just started. So it's too early to judge, and I truly believe that this is not the main motivation for our teams. So we'll see in this regard. Definitely, we want to improve the working conditions. We want to implement new initiatives. Some of them are already in works. So we want to be more focused on our teams and to make our environment more friendly. And by this, we believe we can retain most of the talent, and we can prevent high rotation, but rotation after finishing project is natural. So this is another thing. So we have to be ready that this year is -- I mean, rotation this year will be probably higher than on average, same happened after all through The Witcher. So it's kind of natural state.

And just to check. So do you think that it will be higher than what you would have expected, I guess, the end of AAA project regarding employee turning.

To be honest, we don't know yet. We don't know it. We've just finished. And obviously, by the end of the year, and then we can compare it to, for example, to the situation after The Witcher 3. But on the other hand, all those changes we are implementing, we truly believe we'll be very motivating for the team because we are really changing many things. This strategy update is mostly focused on this because this is a big transformation. The first big transformation in our development history, we were preparing for this before launch. So it's not like after launch, we decided let's transform our studios. So that was long plan, and now we have even bigger motivation to be a better place to work and be more productive still being focused on quality studio. And this is, I hope -- I truly hope this is the best way to keep the most time people here with us.

Our next question comes from Matti Littunen from Bernstein.

I've got 2 questions. The first one on adding talent. In the digital scapes press release, you mentioned that you see Vancouver as a good foundation for growing sort of fourth development team for CD Projekt. So is this in recognition that it might be harder to organically scale the existing 3 CD PROJEKT RED development teams in Poland, for example, because of the limitations of the local talent pool at this stage or the fact that these are quite sizable development teams already in that market? And the second question is on governance. You mentioned an expanded role for the CTO. Are there any other sort of meaningful -- and then, of course, all the changes at the operational level, are there any other meaningful changes at the top of the organization in, say, reporting roles, changes in how communication works between the different parts of the group? Should -- is there anything to add on that? And then finally, could you just give us any color on the role of the Supervisory Board in formulating this strategy update?

Regarding Vancouver and our limitations in Poland. Definitely, Poland can be more difficult to grow organically for us because we are the biggest developers here. And the talent pool in Poland, and it's not small, it's a very dynamic market. And we have many developers, but still, in terms of very experienced developers, there are some limitations for us. So we are bringing people here to Poland, but it's not always possible. And Vancouver, I think to us at least seems to a great opportunity to start [indiscernible] many experienced developers, and we have very strong foundation. And this is our way. I mean to start working with someone to know each other, to like each other and then decide to do things together. So that -- I mean, we saw it with our Brotas studio 3 years ago. So we stopped working with external companies. Then we just bought them and based on them. We built our [indiscernible] studios. So we're kind of repeating the same scenario, and we hope to repeat the same scenario in Vancouver. And the second question was starting to -- it's hard something to remember all those questions. Second was about?

Yes. It was on governance. So first of all, you mentioned the expanded CTO role. Are there any sort of other notable changes at the top of the organization in addition to that and the sort of operational level changes you mentioned? And then sort of relating to the Supervisory Board, could you give any color on their role in formulating this new strategy?

So yes, there are some other changes that are not announced yet, but we are rather trying to empower those who've been with us for some time. So we are empowering people who are eager to be leaders of this transformation, but we can't announce things which are not announced yet. And in terms of Supervisory board, they are part of our discussion board. The Board itself is the main constructor of the strategy update, but of course, we are working closely with Supervisory board as well.

Our next question comes from Tomasz Rodak with BOS Brokerage.

I just -- I'm sorry, but I just want to clarify on the online element for Cyberpunk. I just want to make sure if I understand it correctly. Does it mean that for now you don't intend to develop a big standalone multiplayer games based on your universe, which have their own like monetization systems, but rather small online expansions like, I don't know, for example, like a cooperation mode? This is the first question. And the second question is related to the first one, does like dropping a big multiplayer mode for now, does it mean that future games like, for example, next Witcher games may come out earlier than you previously planned? And another question is regarding your marketing campaigns because in the presentation, you said that marketing and PR campaigns will start without closer to the actual launch. However, new project might still be teased early on. I wonder isn't teasing a part of marketing campaign? And what did you mean by this exactly? Could you give an example of an early tease? And the last question is, could you please describe and specify the agile ways of games development that you want to adopt since now as compared to what you have been doing until now? And what made you change your attitude to development process?

All right. So I'll take the first 2 and the last. So we are changing our way towards multiplayer, and we want to add, as we said, online elements -- I'm not talking DLCs or mode. It's not -- we are not ready to talk about any details, but the major changes that we want to be the step by step, and partly, we will, of course, develop AAAs as well. So online part is not -- I mean, we'll have 2 AAA single-player development teams and online along with them with a different organization -- I would say, organized in a different way. And multiplayer plus online component will enhance one day our single player in future games. The next one was money, right? No -- sorry, the next thing may come up [indiscernible]. It's too early. I mean, we're not ready to talk about this and plans. That's the decision. I know it's hard for everyone, but we are trying to change our approach towards talking about the future, more focusing -- more focused on how we were less focused on our release plan. So I'm not going to please anything about date. And maybe the last one and Piotr or Michal will take the third one. I'll take the last one. Agile way. I mean agile is fairly well described. It's about having multi-disciplinary teams working screens and delivering things which can be -- I mean which can be, how to say, the progress is tracked by delivering features. And having constant working game, we can build the game on every stage, seeing the progress because in our previous development, we had been working in waterfall model. We were preparing many things in silos organization. So some program is working on one part of the future and designers were working on a different part of the same feature. And then at the probably late page, we saw the effect here. It's about seeing the effect of our work on every stage of the project. So it's agile, some call them scrum. Of course, not everywhere, we have to be reasonable, but it's about multi-disciplinary teams working on features and being able to deliver things which can be judged and seen on work.

Okay. And I'll take the tease question. So the difference between tease and the proper marketing and PR communication is that tease, looking at the examples from the industry, could be as little as, I don't know, a small trailer with logo type reveal and the fact -- and the announcement that the game is coming, could be a teeny tiny trailer or maybe even not very obvious sort of mentioned that -- or a hint that something is coming to leave the audience semi guessing that the actual way that it's done for each franchise is a technicality and part of the tactics that a given marketing team wants to execute. So I'm not -- giving those examples doesn't mean that I'm not saying this is how we're going to do it, right? I'm just giving you examples, as you've asked. For example, Skyrim did a tease of Skyrim 6, I think a year ago, when they show that landscape and Elder Scrolls, not Skyrim 6 -- sorry, Elder Scrolls VI showing the logotype, and that's it. And the proper marketing campaign and PR campaign is when we want to go in, show proper footage, start discussing the details of the game mechanics. What the game is about. What's in the game, what is special by game and so on. So it's the proper feed of the information is and the asset is when we -- what we consider a proper kick-off marketing campaign. And that's the part we want to have much shorter. The tease can happen earlier, but the actual marketing, we want to have it much shorter and much closer to the actual launch on the game.

We'll take our next question from Martin Novak with IPOPEMA. And once again, we'll move on to our next question from Thomas Sokolowski with Santander.

I'd like to ask about the expansion to Cyberpunk. Could you confirm that you're working on? And you're going not to issue them, I mean, paid expansion.

Yes. I mean, we've been talking about the fact that there's going to be expansions for Cyberpunk for a while. While we're not giving any details in terms of the name, size, any potential, SRP or anything of the kind. Yes, we can confirm what we're working on them, and that's -- they're part of our plans.

And that concludes our question-and-answer session. I'd like to turn the conference back to our presenters for any additional or closing remarks.

Thank you very much. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for the interest in our strategy update, and see you on our -- probably see you on our yearly results on 19th of April. Thank you. Bye-bye.

And that does conclude today's conference. We thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.