Cera Sanitaryware Limited (532443) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Q1 FY '22 Earnings Conference Call of Cera Sanitaryware Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Mayank Vaswani of CDR India. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you, Lizan. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us on the earnings call for Cera Sanitaryware Limited for Q1 FY '22, the earnings of which were announced yesterday. We have with us today the management team comprising Mr. Ayush Bagla, Executive Director; Mr. Rajesh B. Shah, CFO and COO of the company; and Mr. Mahesh Taparia, the Deputy CFO. We will start with brief opening remarks from the management, following which we will open the call for Q&A. Kindly note the disclaimer before we begin the prepared remarks. Some of the statements made in today's conference call may be forward-looking in nature, and a detailed note in this regard is contained in the results documents that have been shared with all of you earlier. I would now turn the call over to Mr. Ayush Bagla for his opening remarks. Thank you.

Thank you, Mayank. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for taking time to join our call. The earnings for the first quarter of the financial year 2021-'22 were adopted by the Board of Directors yesterday, 5th August 2021. The earnings documents have been released to the stock exchanges. During quarter 1 FY '22, India witnessed the second wave of the pandemic. While the country had witnessed a national lockdown at the time of the first wave, this time around there were phased wise and region-specific lockdowns, which did not disrupt operations at our manufacturing facilities but had an impact on interstate transport and market closures. Due to the high severity of the second wave, the company witnessed a drop in volumes and consequently in its revenues. This, we believe, is more as a nature of deferred purchase decisions which will translate into sales as customers return to purchase activity from mid-June onwards. While in the case of the first wave it was the metro cities and urban centers which were more severely affected, this time the impact has been visible and equally severe in non-metros and smaller cities and towns as well as in rural areas. As most of you are aware, Cera, which enjoys between 55% to 60% of top line from Tier-3 cities and beyond, witnessed a material pandemic impact in these areas, which is reflected in its revenue. On the production side, Cera has managed to operate the plants at fairly high capacity utilization this quarter. Capacity utilization of the Sanitaryware plant was 88% and of the Faucetware plant was 72% after a fairly underwhelming year in financial year '21. This was largely made possible as the company stringently followed the recommended guidelines mandated by local authorities. Best practices in terms of social distancing, masking as well as sanitation protocols were followed. The company has also undertaken effort to vaccinate its eligible shop floor employees and their families. The employees and teams at Cera have displayed exemplary commitment and dedication to help us counter the challenges caused by the second wave of the pandemic. As some of you may recall, we had faced a one-off disruption in our plant operations during quarter 3 FY '21 and it took us some days in quarter 4 FY '21 as well to stabilize production. At that time, we had leveraged our outsourcing arrangements to cater to the ongoing demand. During financial year 2021, to tackle the on-ground challenges due to reduced availability of product, Cera's strategy to fulfill the ongoing demand for its products using agile infrastructure, a mix of in-house and outsourced facilities worked. These initiatives proved highly beneficial in the backdrop of the partial disruption as the company was able to increase its volumes from its vendors to cater to the improved demand. The normal percentage of outsourcing in Sanitaryware is 50% to 55%, which was 55% this quarter after increasing to 77% in Q3 during FY 2021. In Faucetware, the normal percentage of outsourcing is 50% to 55%, which was 55% this quarter after rising to 59% over the last 2 quarters. Production has stabilized this quarter as own manufacturing is once again contributing to the desired ratio, enabling us to replenish stocks of high-end and complex products. Working capital had contracted during the last fiscal from INR 341 crores to INR 234 crores, releasing INR 107 crores of cash in the absence of all-round availability of product and channel inventory remaining dry. This quarter, with the increased utilization at our manufacturing plants and the responsiveness by vendors in the face of the second wave, we have been able to replenish the channel inventory. We have established localized warehouses across locations to rapidly serve the markets and efficiently manage finished goods inventory. This is serving us well as we drive a restocking of the pipeline. As a result, we expect our capital deployed in inventory to rise, requiring an increase in working capital this fiscal. Given the adequate cash reserves of INR 433 crores on 30th June 2021, we expect that during the year a portion of the available cash can be used in increasing working capital and more specifically in increasing inventory days. Getting product to market and product availability is a high priority for the company as markets remain strong. Since August 2020, demand has been very robust on the back of completely redefined elasticity of demand, reduced interest rates and reduced monthly home loan payments. The sector has witnessed record registrations in Maharashtra and many other states in the last 12 months, barring a brief pause during the second wave. Since July 2021, the overall demand has returned to a fairly positive trajectory, similar to the one between August 2020 to March 2021. The sales numbers of July 2021 bear out this phenomenon. On the other parts of working capital, there is a concerted focus on managing receivables within a comfortable range, and we have been encouraging customers to allow us to work with them on schedules which are smaller dispatches of products closely aligned to project completion, enabling faster and smaller billing cycles and better receivables management. As we had shared before, we are also driving increase in cash and carry component in the Tiles business. In the Sanitaryware and Faucetware business, it is already high. Receivable management has traditionally been Cera's strength, and we continue to build on the theme. The other development to share has been the inflationary environment in raw materials being witnessed across all industries this quarter. On the Sanitaryware side, there have been relatively smaller price increases in some of the ancillary cost items like transport costs and packaging. Key items like clay and feldspar, which constitute 95% of Sanitaryware's raw materials mix, have been relatively stable in the Sanitaryware business, though zinc has moved higher. Due to availability of gas from isolated wells near our plant, the pricing of gas from GAIL dropped further to INR 9.63 per cubic meter as against INR 40.51 from Sabarmati, which is the market-driven pricing. Renewable energy, given that 90% of our energy requirement is met from wind and solar power sources, we have been able to keep significant parts of our cost basket stable. For Faucetware, we have witnessed a meaningful increase in prices of brass, which is an important raw material, and we have continued to raise prices of Faucetware products accordingly. We drove price hikes this quarter to remain ahead of cost pressure. In Sanitaryware, our last 2 price hikes were implemented in August 2020 of 3% to 5% and from February 2021 of 5% to 7%. From 1st August 2021, we have implemented another price hike of 4%. In Faucetware, the price hike was from 1st February 2021 of 8% to 10%. From August 2021, we have implemented another price hike in Faucetware of 10%. Sales mix and its importance. Despite the drop in sales this quarter due to the second wave, the sales mix remains favorable as Sanitaryware and Faucet remain our core focus areas, and we are confident of the prospects on a sustained basis. Sanitaryware contributed 50% and Faucetware contributed 31% of top line this quarter. In that backdrop, we can go over the financials on a Y-o-Y base. Revenues in Q1 FY '22 were INR 222.84 crores versus INR 142.59 crores in Q1 of FY '21. EBITDA, excluding other income, was INR 19.84 crores in Q1 versus INR 6.64 crore in Q1 of FY '21. The EBITDA margin has been 8.9% versus 4.7% in Q1 FY '21. PAT was INR 12.92 crores in Q1 FY '22 versus INR 2.91 crore in Q1 FY '21. EPS for Q1 was INR 9.93 versus INR 2.24 in Q1 of FY 2021. For Q1 FY '22, 50% of the top line was from Sanitaryware, 31% from Faucetware, Tiles was 17% and Wellness 2%. On a Y-o-Y basis, Sanitaryware revenues registered an increase of 53.8%, Faucetware revenue increased by 69.1%, Tiles by 50.4% and Wellness increased by 11%. The Sanitaryware and Faucetware verticals remain the bedrock of the business, with contribution of 81% to our overall revenues. Cera continues to witness encouraging demand for its newly launched products. During Q1 FY '22, the new product development program contributed close to 21% of revenues. The company has been receiving positive responses to its new packaging designs which were introduced with an aim to create more brand awareness and for retail customer visibility. Inventory days in Q1 FY '22 was 60.86 days compared to 59.83 days in Q1 FY '21. Receivable days in Q1 FY '22 was 38.51 days versus 51.36 days. Payable days in Q1 was 29 days against 31 days in Q1 of FY '21. Therefore, net working capital days in Q1 FY '22 was 70.37 days versus 79.40 days in Q1 of FY '21. As on 30th June 2021, our cash and cash equivalents increased to INR 433 crores compared to INR 268 crores on 30th June 2020. On cash balance, we see an increase in working capital going ahead and some portion of cash getting absorbed in increasing inventory days. INR 46 crores has been used in Q1 for increasing WIP inventory and overall working capital. Cash on the books on 31st July 2021 is INR 470 crores. After a fairly low CapEx last year as against the CapEx budget of INR 21.82 crores for financial year '21, the total CapEx spend was INR 9.84 crores. In the current year, the CapEx budget is INR 17.19 crores, of which INR 6.69 crores is for Sanitaryware automation, INR 4.97 crores is for Faucetware automation and INR 5.53 crores is for logistics and IT. To conclude, while the second wave of the pandemic did disrupt our overall performance momentum, the long-term growth dynamics of the company remain intact. We remain optimistic of the outlook given robust indicators of demand, the continued strength of affordable housing and the prevailing low interest rates for housing loans. One of the premier banks of the country has waived processing fee on home loans and several state governments have offered waivers of stamp duty and regulatory costs. We are also on the cusp of the festive season in India over the next 2 quarters. Overall, we remain confident in the inherent strengths of Cera Sanitaryware and consider ourselves well placed to rebound as the operating environment stabilizes. On that note, I would now request the moderator to open the line for Q&A, and thank you very much.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Arun Baid from BOB Capital Markets.

Just a few bookkeeping questions. Sir, can you just give us a breakup for the quarter, segment wise, [indiscernible] wise.

Okay. So from the top line perspective, Sanitaryware was 50.38%, of which outsourcing was 55.21% and own manufacturing was 44.79%. Faucetware was 30.88% of top line, of which outsourcing was 54.55% and own manufacturing was 45.45%. Tiles was 16.74%, entirely outsourcing if you consider our JVs and outside third-party vendors. Wellness was 2.01% of top line, entirely outsourced.

And sir, second question is, in this quarter, we saw our gross margins doing very well. One of the best gross margins you have reported for a long period of time. So can you highlight something there? And also with regards to your other expenses are pretty high [indiscernible] lower EBITDA. So can you just throw light on these 2 aspects [indiscernible]?

See, gross margins have traditionally been in that 47% to 51% region. This quarter, it was 56%. So there has been a lot of pressure on negotiating with vendors, with raw material suppliers, with outsourcing partners. So despite the tepid top line numbers, we were able to control costs at the shop floor level and at the outsourcing level. So COGS has been 44% against a traditional 51% to 58% variation. And on the EBITDA margin front, we -- if we would have got a top line of INR 280 crores and beyond, you would have seen our normal EBITDA margins of between 13% to 14.5%, which you saw for FY '21. For this year, we do expect that sales which have regained a positive trajectory from June onwards, we have seen a cracker of July. And if these numbers remain, you'll see that number coming back of 14% plus very soon.

And whatever we had guided for that -- we had aspirationally said that we are looking at, at least INR 1,450 crores of turnover. That looks on track because the [indiscernible] come back. Is it fair to interpret, sir?

Yes, from INR 1,223 crores to INR 1,460 crores is a 15% top line growth, which is definitely possible this year, and EBITDA percentage of 14% plus is also definitely possible this year. But as you know, Mr. Baid, we never guide. We just make our own estimates. And we tell the analyst and investor community that the company's size is still not large enough for the company to be able to give out a guidance.

And second thing is, there is this market thing that there is -- the company is seeing a lot of raw material availability issues. Can you just give some -- your take on what's happening in the market with regards to [indiscernible]?

See, this is a very interesting and very important question. We have always maintained that you have to have own manufacturing excellence and you have to do it onshore in India. So some of the participants in the industry who had no background in sanitaryware, they came from a faucetware background. They entered sanitaryware purely on the strength of China imports. And on the basis of trade discounting and China imports, they thought they could make a serious dent in the industry. They did make a temporary splash, but they have no product for the last 1.5 months and they claim they have no products for the next 90 days. So again, we come back to the overall company philosophy. Do you have manufacturing excellence in India? Do you have a strong vendor base for low-end products? These are things that took a long time to build, took a long effort to build. We have done it over the last 15 years. And any company trying to quick fix their way into entering sanitaryware, it does not work, as one of the largest peer group companies have just discovered. So there is no problem of raw material availability either in Faucetware of brass and cartridges and rubber and plastic items or in Sanitaryware of clay, felspar, zinc oxide. But the Chinese vendors, there have been some disruptions. The Chinese currency has been very volatile. So those companies which depend on China, they are having -- they're facing all sorts of issues, both of availability, pricing and finding the right product to place in the market. We have always given out a number that our top line 5% is overall imports and China is one of those pieces of that import. Other companies have numbers of 50%, 60% and of complicated products, they have probably 100%. So this strategy is now bearing fruit, and that's why the June-July number and probably what you're going to see in August-September will bear out. So whatever this peer group company's top line was in Sanitaryware of INR 300 crores, INR 400 crores, is ripe for the taking.

So we will be a big beneficiary because we had production which -- issues which has resolved and at the same time we had a good inventory buildup in Q1 because of COVID 2. Is that the right way to look at it?

Absolutely. So the -- whatever channel inventory was running dry has been replenished during Q1 because sales outlets were closed, interstate transport was compromised, but manufacturing operations were not shut even for 1 day. So now after a long time, we are in even keel where sales, supplies, demand and manufacturing are all aligned.

And sir, last question from my side. There was this notice which came with regards to your divestment in Anjani Tiles. Can you just throw light on that one?

See, about 5, 6 years ago, we partnered with an entrepreneur who has got a past history in cement and tiles manufacturing. He's an expert in that manufacturing business. He has other joint ventures with leading tiles players as well. We partnered with him and provided equity to set up a manufacturing base in Andhra Pradesh. We had an obligation also to buy tiles from that venture. Now given the buoyancy in the tiles market, we have received an indicative interest from our partner to buy out Cera's equity. So the numbers, et cetera, are at a very preliminary level of discussion. Nothing is finalized. No document has been signed. We are in the process of trying to release our capital from the equity of that manufacturing JV. And the other implied benefit of that is the obligation to buy tiles from that JV will now become an option to buy. So there will be 2 huge benefits that Cera gets.

So we're going to sell to the other partner only? That's the idea, right, sir?

Yes. That is the level of interest and intent we have received from our partner. So it is just too preliminary right now, and we've also found that the tiles ecosystem in Gujarat has plenty of available capacity. So our customers will not find any difference in availability, designs and ranges going forward. And at the same time, we have an option to buy a small, large or entire production of that company.

We'll move on to the next question that is from the line of Rahul Agarwal from Incred Capital.

So just to take that question further, Ayush, on the Anjani Tiles thing. So whenever that transaction basically happens till that point the supply is ensured, right?

That's right. The old supply arrangement is in place, and we continue to buy tiles from Anjani, which constitutes less than 1/3 of Cera's tile sales currently. So in any case, we have to go to third-party vendors to buy 2/3 of our tiles requirement. The advantage of buying from Anjani is, let's say, there is almost a INR 3 freight advantage for sales that are to be made in South India because the plant is located in AP.

Got it. And any P&L impact you could foresee? Essentially, what I can look in your balance sheet is INR 10 crores of equity investments, INR 24 crores of preference and INR 12 crores of advances. So essentially, this all comes back. Is that the right understanding?

The numbers are still under discussion. So I won't be able to give you more specifics on the equity and preference. The advances are business call between buyer and seller of tiles. So that, depending on the volumes going forward, will come down, go up. That's just a normal call between a buyer and seller.

Well, I thought we had some facilities from Federal Bank which were supporting Anjani in working capital. So I thought that was also something which could be get rid of, right, if we don't get into this transaction? Isn't that correct?

See, Federal Bank has lent to the SPV. Cera has not provided any kind of comfort, guarantee, whether implied letter of comfort, keepwell agreement, none of that from Cera has been provided to Federal Bank. Purely on the strength of the SPV and its financials, its partners, its ability to make revenues. So it's an independent loan by Federal Bank to that SPV. So the -- if the transaction goes through, then the new owner of 100% of ATL's equity will be dealing with Federal Bank as a normal client.

Got it. Got it. So essentially, will you be looking for any new equity tie-ups or you are comfortable that you'll be having like outsourcing capacity and vendors will provide whatever you need? So you don't -- are you keen basically on any equity tie-ups going forward? That's the question.

Currently, there is enough availability of tiles. If that situation were to change, which it doesn't look like it will change in the short term. So in the short term, we may not look at the equity tie-up. But if that situation were to change, of course, we'll come back to you with a revised view that, given the shortage of scarcity of tiles, we'll need to invest equity in a venture.

Perfect. One last housekeeping question was, if you could help us with the tier-wise revenue breakdown and the entry, mid and premium sales, if you could help, across segments.

Exports in Q1 last year was 2%. This time, it was 4%. Tier-1 sales, which were 24% last year, were 27% this year. Tier-2 sales, which were 10% last year, 14% this year. And Tier-3 sales, which were 64% last year, 55% this year. Then we come to premium and that classification. Last year, in Sanitaryware, entry products were 41% of sales. This year, it was 34%. Mid-price products were 13%. They remained at 13%. Premium products were 46%. They become 53%. In Faucetware, last year, entry products were 32%. This time it's 29%. Mid-product was 15%. They remain 15%. And premium products, which were 53% of sales, became 56% of sales. So -- should I give you the blended average of both as well?

No, that's fine. This is good enough, Ayush.

The next question is from the line of Madhav Marda from Fidelity Investments.

I just had 2 questions. The first one was, if you could just give us a sense on like your demand outlook for the coming year across urban and more Tier 2, Tier 3 cities? How are you all expecting it to play out this year? And my second question was on the working capital side. Sir, I couldn't fully grasp your comments that you made initially. Sir, you're expecting some working capital buildup this year versus last year. Could you help me understand what that was about?

So the demand environment from August 2020 has been higher than supply, both for the industry and definitely for Cera. Cera had a mixture of external and internal issues last year. That has all got sorted out in Q1 of this year, where there was only one external issue. From 15th June onwards, there is neither an external or internal issue. So demand/supply -- increased level of supply both from own manufacturing and from vendors is now synced with the demand trends. And the industry which has grown for -- in single digits for the last many years is seeing a surge in demand. It's definitely in double digits. Now whether it's 10 or 15 or 18, that is something we'll wait for the year to end. But the demand is definitely very, very high. The second point of working capital is, last year due to channels running dry, very high ratio of cash and carry and reduced manufacturing and therefore the need to not deploy capital in WIP, there was a significant capital that was released from working capital. So we expect that we would like to have more capital deployed in WIP, finished goods and in inventory. And some part of the cash available will be used for that. So then in the opening statement, we said INR 46 crores of the cash of INR 479 crores was used in excess finished goods or inventory days and receivable days. Now that number is back to INR 470 crores from INR 433 crores on 30th June. But our aim this year is not to maximize or optimize inventory days. Our aim this year is to increase inventory days, increase, if required, even receivable days but to ensure product availability. So I'm saying some part of the INR 470 crores cash will be used to ensure product availability. Now as far as market demand is concerned, you see we are coming back again and again to the most important theme, which is strength of own manufacturing. You've seen one of the challengers in the sanitaryware industry run dry for the last more than a month and then they have no product for the next 3 months. So that market share is there for the taking. This is the same discussion we had at the end of Q3 last year when a lot of our investors and analysts asked us, is there a permanent change in market share, and we said no. Once our products are available, we'll claw back our market share. But this time in Q2, and going forward in Q3, we'll be clawing back much more than our market share because the challenger has no product.

Understood. Understood. And just a second question from my side was on the increase in the input cost which is happening. Have you been able to pass it on largely or there could be some more price hikes that could be required? Sorry if you've already answered this before.

On the...

On the input cost hike which is happening, have you been able to take sufficient price hikes to pass it through or we might require some more price hikes in the coming months?

We'll just go over some of the raw materials. China clay is 50% of raw material in Sanitaryware. There was a 3% to 5% hike from April this year. Feldspar, which is 45% of Sanitaryware RM, was 3% higher again from April this year. In glazing and color, there was -- which is 1% of RM, there was no major change. Zinc oxide, which is 1% of RM, there was a 7% price hike from April this year. Plaster of Paris, which is used in the molds, which is 1% of RM, there was no change this year. But on the price hike, we took one of 3% to 5% in August 2020, one of 5% to 7% in February 2021 and in August 2021 of 4%. So our price hikes have been one step ahead of the raw material pricing curve. And if raw material prices soften, there's going to be no change in the pricing. Similarly, brass, which is, let's say, 55% of the entire cost of Faucetware raw material, has seen a lot of volatility and over the last 3 quarters a one-way increase. So to offset that, both brass and Zamac, we have taken a price hike of 8% to 10% in February and a price hike of 10% in August 2021. So we've stayed one step ahead of the curve. And once again, brass prices will cool, but we won't be reducing our prices.

Got it. So basically, the demand/supply environment remains very supportive for a company like us which has their own manufacturing and hence price hikes are -- we're able to pass it through basically via the RM inflation which is not a problem.

There are 2, 3 reasons for that. One is the brand is very strong. The dealer network is very strong. And it's 100% pull sales. There are no push sales. So pull sales are all end consumer driven. Even project sales, in most of the projects, the procurement teams have specified, you can buy brand Cera or brand D or C. So it is a very closed club. The industry is itself a closed industry. And customer loyalty in this industry changes after 10, 15 years. So the stickiness of customer loyalty is very high because the product is going to last you between 10 and 20 years.

[Operator Instructions] We'll move on to the next question that is from the line of Sujit Jain from ASK Investment Managers.

Ayush, delighted to see your new, ad campaign on various channels. Just one quick question. You said that the competitor would gain market share now. For next 3 months, you will not be able to supply all China supplies to him. But if you are referring to the same player, and he has been a leader in the faucet market and attacking the sanitaryware market, if we ourselves are outsourcing, eventually we also can outsource it from domestic players, isn't it? So how sustainable this market share gain would be?

See, in most cases, domestic sanitaryware vendors can supply basic products. They don't have the capability of, let's say, the manufacturing excellence of Cera's plant which have robotic glazing and the kilns which have -- which are German-made kilns, et cetera, and the quality parameters. So there is huge differentiation between the products that is made in the factory and by a vendor. Then most of the complicated SKUs, which are tabletop sinks, single-piece wall-mounted WCs, then floor-standing single-piece large WCs, these are not being made by most of the vendors of sanitaryware in India, which is why the challenger was dependent on Chinese imports. So there's a huge differentiation. Otherwise, there would be no need for anyone to have any plant. And we could go the symphony model of 100% outsourcing.

But if I look at your CapEx, so, let's say, we've done a very significant compounding FY '20 behind for 10 years and if our ambition is to grow at 15% CAGR and double our sales in 5 years from INR 600 crores in sanitaryware, the CapEx is absolutely not commensurate with that. Most of that is on brand spend [indiscernible] et cetera, whereas when you see in the tile industry, the leaders are clearly doing a strategy of their own manufacturing. So if the incremental sales and ambition and aspiration is going to come from outsourcing, even we will be like that other player only. And including the Anjani transaction that you are doing in which you invested INR 5 crores equity last year and now you're pulling out, it clearly shows that along with your CapEx plan that increasingly incremental sales will come from outsourced. So where do we stand on this?

See, on Anjani, the thinking is very clear. There is availability of tiles in the market. In any case, we were dependent on 2/3 of our tile sales from third-party vendors. Now Anjani, in case this transaction happens and it becomes a third-party vendor, 100% of our tiles will be a trading business with a significant EBITDA margin. So all financial ratios will improve. And there is no differentiation in the tiles market between vendors. There are no quality parameters which are vastly different, unlike in sanitaryware and faucetware. Now coming to sanitaryware. Yes, a lot of CapEx, more than INR 190 crores of CapEx was spent on the shop floor between 2015 and 2019, which is why there has been a pause on CapEx in large numbers over the last 2 years. So the INR 190 crores of CapEx that was spent in the shop floor over 4 years from 2015 to 2019, that is giving us the benefits, both in the ability to make complicated products and increase the number of SKUs. That has been the main driver of our sales, both in sanitaryware and faucetware. And in Q1 last year, we disclosed to the market we have acquired a land parcel in case there is a significant faucetware expansion plan next to our current manufacturing facility. So we are fully aware of what we are saying, but the list of SKUs that are to be outsourced to a vendor changes periodically, not only annually, sometimes during the year. Lower and lower end and less complicated pieces are outsourced to a vendor and more complicated, newer SKUs are made in-house. So from a percentage basis, outsourcing might increase with the increase in sales. But from a complexity standpoint, own manufacturing will always have 100% market share of complicated products.

Sir, and one request, at least once in a year if we get to hear from Vikramji about strategy, about company plans, 5, 10 years, et cetera, that will be great.

Okay. Okay. We'll make it happen this year. We'll make it happen.

We'll move on to the next question that is from the line of Sneha Talreja from Edelweiss Securities.