Ceres Power Holdings plc (CWR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Ceres Power Holdings Annual Sustainability Report Presentation. [Operator Instructions] The company may not be in a position to answer every question received during the meeting itself. However, the company can review your questions submitted today, and we have published those responses where it's appropriate to do so. Before we begin, we'd like to submit the following poll. And if you could give it your kind of attention, I'm sure that the company will be most grateful. I'd now like to hand over to Director of Corporate Communications, Elizabeth Skerritt. Good morning. Good afternoon.

Thanks, Mark, and hello, everyone, and welcome to this webinar. For those of you who don't know me, I'm Elizabeth Skerritt and I look after all aspects of Investor and Corporate Communications at Ceres. And thank you again for joining us as we take the opportunity to provide an update on Ceres' progress across our environmental, social and governance actions and reporting. We hope you've had an opportunity to access our latest report, which is available on our website. It was published in October. And with us today to talk through the report is Phil Caldwell, who many of you will know, is our CEO and also the chair of our ESG Operational Committee; along with members of is management team responsible for those 3 pillars, Mark Garrett, Michelle Traynor and Deborah Grimason. We're really happy to take questions at the end of the presentation on the report. And for all other inquiries, you can reach the team at [email protected]. And with that, I will hand over to Phil. Thanks.

Okay. Thank you, Elizabeth, and thanks, everybody, for joining today. Let's just move on with the slides. So many of you will know, Ceres Power. I mean, we've been in this business for 20 years. We're a leading global leader in solid oxide technology. Initially, we began the business really focused on power generation, highly efficient power generation to drive a low carbon agenda there. In the last few years, we've enhanced that with the investment that we're making into green hydrogen electrolysis technology. We're a licensing business. We have world-leading technology that we share with partners in order to address decarbonization globally at scale and pace. And that's where this business model really lends itself to our partnerships with the likes of Bosch, Weichai, Doosan and Shell and others, we're really able to roll out technology that makes a big difference on the decarbonization agenda. And really to do that, we have a platform technology. So the core sellers technology is, first of all, applied to distributed power generation, which have been for quite a long time. But now, more recently, into decarbonization. It's really hard to decarbonize industrial sectors to green steel, green ammonia and future fuels. And some of you may have seen recent updates from the International Energy Agency and others about the projections for hydrogen. One of the key things that we see as we look forward is hydrogen is often looked upon as a good solution for many aspects of achieving decarbonization. But for certain fields, it's absolutely essential, and they are particularly in the industrial decarbonization sessions that we're looking at in terms of steel, ammonia and fuels. So we believe now, with the direction we're taking as a company, we have a big role to play in the future of hitting net zero and decarbonization. And the way we approach this, and we'll talk about this today, is not just in terms of the carbon avoidance that our technology represents but also in the materials that we use in terms of not being reliant on hard to source ceramics, precious metals, et cetera, and very much looking at the cradle-to-grave aspect of our technology. So we're going to walk through that over the course of the presentation today. And some of you may have been involved in this, but this is the materiality matrix that we test out with all of our stakeholders, including some of our investors in terms of what's important to ourselves at Ceres and what's important to our stakeholders, and how we prioritize, how we operate the business and our ESG agenda. And we've updated this since last year. There's over 13 particularly high priority areas that we look at. But this is really part of the feedback loop that we get through this kind of engagement. And today, we're going to cover those broad topics of the ESG agenda as we walk through it today. So with that said, that's a brief introduction from me, but what I really want you to do is hear from my executives who are responsible for the different aspects of this. And I'm going to hand you over to Mark Garrett, my COO, to walk you through the first part of this. Mark?

Thank you very much, Phil. So good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. So as COO, I have particular responsibility for the environmental aspect of our sustainability activities. And over the next few minutes, I'd like to talk you through our greenhouse gas emissions breakdown by category as part of our SECR reporting, to take a look at our year-on-year performance in those areas and just highlight a few points of interest, to talk a little bit about our long-range forecasting around our emissions and then finish by looking at some of the benefits of the Ceres technology as it pertains to our environmental footprint and impact. So just first of all, on that score, you'll see here the 3 scope requirements for SECR 1, 2 and 3. Just to remind you that Scope 1 is around our natural gas usage and company vehicles. And for us, natural gas is primarily around office and facility heating. We don't use any natural gas for our manufacturing process, and we use some natural gas for our testing facilities as well. Our Scope 2, which is identified as nil around our electricity consumption, and we have been on renewable electricity provision since 2021, which eliminates the carbon from our electricity use. And Scope 3, which is by far the largest category, is defined here. And you can see from the pie charts, the ring pie charts underneath, it accounts for about 98% of our total carbon emissions. And of that, significant chunk is around our purchased goods and services. We've purchased goods around about 2/3 of that and our capital equipment around 20%. And bear in mind, our capital equipment is supporting our manufacturing upgrades and changes as we move to next-generation stack technologies, upgrading our facilities and also expanding the capability and capacity of our test estate as well. So as a growth business, we are continually investing to allow us to get to market more quickly with the latest levels of technology. This year, as we have done in last year, we're collaborating with Ricardo Energy and Environment to do the analysis and reporting on our carbon emissions. We have upgraded and enhanced some of the carbon factors against our spend, which means the numbers this year are quite a lot different to last year. It makes a year-on-year comparison quite difficult to do. But we believe this is the right step to get a more accurate analysis of our spend as it pertains to our carbon emissions. So please bear that in mind as we start to look at the year-on-year data. As you look at that over the last 3 years, you'll see that they are flat or small levels of growth. The key element, again, is our Scope 3 emissions, which is substantially the largest. And you'll see that 2020 to 2021 was a significant growth, which reflected the growth in the organization. But this year, 2022, has seen quite a substantive drop around about 17 -- sorry, around about a 30% drop. This is primarily due to the different factors we've employed. If we look at a straight spend comparison, our CapEx spend has probably gone up by about 14%. And our spend on goods and services has increased by about 17%, in line with our corporate growth. So on a like-for-like basis, we would have seen our CO2 emissions go up. But in reality, that the numbers that you have here for this last year, around about 18,000, 19,000, is a better reflection of our carbon footprint. And we'll continue to refine those factors to give you a more accurate representation of our carbon emissions. It's quite pleasing though that we are seeing a reduction year-on-year on our carbon intensity as it's measured against our headcount and against our revenue, and we intend to try and keep that moving in the right direction as far as we can. If we look further ahead, against our aspiration to achieve a net zero figure. The graphic here, we've used in previous sustainability reports. So you may be familiar with it. We're trying to demonstrate here that as a growth organization, we genuinely expect our carbon emissions at an absolute level to increase without any mitigation as we seek to accelerate the work we're doing to bring carbon-reducing technologies to market. So we believe we're doing the right thing to bring the right technology to bear, but that means that we will be creating more greenhouse gasses in the process, which are more of an offset by the benefit of the technology against alternative technologies. However, we are not satisfied with that, and we will be implementing mitigation factors, which will offset both the growth and the absolute numbers over time. And the yellow line there you see is the Science-based Target reduction curve that we need to achieve to hit the 2050 net zero goal that we have set. So you can see that we will probably increase over the next few years before we start to see an absolute decrease. And we are in process at the moment with Ricardo to define the exact steps which will achieve that mitigation path, so that we can have a fully costed net zero strategy by the end of the year. And I hope we'll be able to share the key elements of that in our reporting accounts next year. So just to conclude my section, one more slide. Very proud really to be able to talk about how inherently sustainable our design is. We've built much of this into our call cell and stack enology, which gives us a real competitive advantage for the Ceres technology. As you'll see here, a vast substantial majority of our stack is based from automotive-grade steel, which is highly abundant. It's already used quite a lot of recycled melt in order to achieve that and is one of the most widely recycled product at the end of life. And because we're running at the temperatures that we are, we don't have to use very high level of content steels. We can run automotive grade, which is a benefit. We have very low levels of precious metals. And the table on the right shows, if we look at the transition metal categories, how much more effective the Ceres technology is against other competing similar technologies. This is not just small reductions. These are significant reductions. And for those of you are not scientists, when we talk about transition metals, we talk about things like scandium, titanium, vanadium, cobalt, zinc, elements like that within that category of chemicals. We are performing end-of-life recyclability assessments, both individually and with our license partners. It's important to us that we achieve end-of-life recycling processes that can operate at gigawatt scale so that we can make the most of the recyclability of our stacking technology. And in parallel with that, we are constantly looking at where we have been improving the efficiency of the materials that we're using so that, per stack, our life cycle analysis has demonstrated a lower carbon footprint for every stack that we manufacture. And our next-generation stack, which we will be releasing over the next year or 2, will demonstrate a further enhancement of that footprint. So that's all I need to say at the moment on the environmental aspect. I'd like to now hand over to Michelle to talk about the social aspects.

Thank you, Mark, and good afternoon, everyone. As people direct, I have responsibility for our people activities and the social agenda as part of our ESG overall agenda. Green energy starts with our people. There's no doubt to me that our people care deeply about our purpose, our planet, our partners and each other. This is evidenced not just through our engagement survey, where 92% of our people stated that they cared about our purpose and that it made their jobs feel important, but through the unwavering passion that they bring every day, making them the driving force behind our innovation. Our overall engagement score at 80% is very strong and represents a continuing improvement on the previous year. Now having experienced exceptionally high retention rates during the COVID pandemic, our retention rate dropped to 84% in 2022. This largely mirrors the general attrition rates observed across our industry post-pandemic in what has been described as the great reshuffle, and no doubt reflects the increased competition for talent in our sector. It will therefore come as no surprise that investing in the development and progression of our employees is of great importance to us. In addition to technical skills development, over 30 senior leaders, 100 leaders and 80 future potential leaders have participated in the bespoke management and leadership development training offered through our Ceres Academy. As a result of this, we have seen more internal promotions than ever before. We've also invested heavily in building our future talent pipeline, sponsoring and supporting a number of science, technology, engineering and natural otherwise activities, including a reimagined school competition, which has really gained great traction from schools across the country and that we're very proud of. Our early careers offering has expanded significantly, incorporates some paid internships, as well as our apprenticeship in graduate schemes, which have proven to be very successful right. From a diversity perspective, at Ceres, we celebrate diversity in all its forms. We believe that talent and ingenuity comes from a variety of perspectives. Our people bring these every day to work and they challenge conventional thinking and the status quo. We have successfully continued to increase and improve our efforts around gender diversity and create supportive and inclusive environment. Our employee forum, the Connect Group, provides a huge role in this. They nurture a strong and inclusive environment. And their mission is embody, amplify and act on the voice of the employee. They collaborate relatively on events and timing and initiatives that promote our values. The chair of the Connect Group sits on our ESG committee. Building on the importance of the of the employee. Last year, Trine Borum Bojsen was nominated by the Board as our Employee Engagement Director. She has participated in a number of initiatives and events to hear directly from our people, to learn their perspectives and their thoughts and to share that and transfer that to the Board. And finally, we take great pride in being a good corporate citizen. Health and safety is apparent importance to us. This is evident through our exceptional standards and records. Now we recognize that health and safety is the responsibility of everyone, and we encourage a culture that is both transparent and focuses on improving continuous improvement. Sustainable procurement matters, too. And in 2022, we introduced sustainable procurement and supply chain assurance policies, all aligned to ISO 20400. Our environmental management system achieved ISO 14001 accreditation and certification last year. We continually strive to improve our sustainability initiatives, not just within our supply chain, but across all our practices and processes. Partnering with and supporting our local community is something we value highly as well. And through our Connect Forum and our STEM ambassadors, we have been able to provide opportunities for our people to volunteer and have a very direct impact on our community. And finally, we maintained strong links with universities and other academic institutions. We are particularly proud of the recognition we have received recently from the Royal Academy of Engineering, having been announced as winners as of the MacRobert Award, as well as having our own role recognized as the winner of the [indiscernible] and Brazos company price for his excellence in materials engineering. I hand over to Deborah.

Thank you, Michelle. And good afternoon, everyone. And as General Counsel and Company Secretary, I'm responsible for governance in the ESG context and across the company. So Ceres is focused on and are committed to upholding sound corporate governance practices in everything we do, providing stakeholders with accurate disclosures and appropriate levels of transparency across all aspects of our business. We also recognize that strong governance is essential to support the long-term sustainable growth of the business. Governance subsidiaries is overseen by the plc Board of Directors, and the Board is accountable to the company's shareholders. As such, governance forms a critical part of our business integrity and of maintaining our stakeholder trust. The Board seeks to ensure that we have the appropriate skills and the resources as a business to deliver our ESG objectives, and the business develop sustainability targets and key performance indicators. And the Board receives and reviews reports on progress towards the achievements of those targets and indicators. During 2022, the ESG Committee was established and is a committee of the plc Board now. It met for the first time in 2023, and is chaired by our Non-Executive Director, Julia King. Julia King was also appointed as Senior Independent Director of the company this year, and bring significant ESG credentials and experience to the Board and to Ceres and the company as a whole. Moving on to the ESG integration within the company at Ceres. We are committed at Ceres to attracting professionally fairly and with integrity in all our business dealings, with consideration for the needs of all our stakeholders. Ceres also endeavors to adopt values and standards designed to help guide employees in their conduct and their business relationships. The committee -- the company is committed to complying with all relevant legislation, regulation and codes of practice, including those requirements related to environmental and social impacts. The operational ESG Committee, chaired by our CEO, Phil Caldwell,, undertake the day-to-day ESG-related operational tasks and reports directly into the ESG Committee of the Board, which provides it with oversight, guidance and advice. The operational functions of the business are deeply involved in evaluating, monitoring and improving our ESG behaviors and actions. So governed by the ESG Operational Committee, we delivered through the implementation and enforcement of effective policies and processes and procedures to reflect a zero tolerance approach to bribery and corruption. We deliver management of our operations and supply chain, which focuses on embedding sustainability considerations into every aspect of the development and transfer of technology to our partners. And assisting in this area, Ceres has recently become a signatory of the UN Global Compact, taking advantage of the access to the U.K. chapter and this academy platform for resources and skills development. In internal audit, which is positioned to support the ESG Operational Committee and management with objective assurance, insights and advice on ESG matters. And we measure performance and promote continual improvement through setting annual objectives and targets. Specifically ESG-related KPIs have been introduced from the executive team proposed by the ESG Committee and agreed by the Remuneration and Nomination Committee and the Board. And last but not least, we deliver through our engagement employee group, Connect, which helps keep sustainability at the heart of our purpose technology by embedding it in our people's works, projects and decision-making. So turning to TCFD, the Task Force for Climate-related Financial Disclosures. As some of you will be aware, Ceres graduated to the main market in June this year, which mandates reporting against the task force for climate-related disclosures, TCFD. Ceres has preemptively reported against the TCFD framework in a sustainability report. And whilst we acknowledge that this is the first attempt of doing this, in terms of our disclosures, we understand and acknowledge that there is still room for improvement. And we are in the process of building climate-related targets against which to measure our performance. Global framework, as we all know, are quickly evolving in this area and other areas around ESG. So we recognize that as a small team here at Ceres. We comment a proportional response that reflects the current size of Ceres. The responsibility of every business to ensure proper oversight of climate-related risks and opportunities has never been higher, and Ceres is working towards transparency, communicating these risks and opportunities to our stakeholders. So with that, I will hand back over to Phil.

Thank you, Deborah. I think one thing we can say about the TCFD agenda is it's been a very valuable exercise for Ceres in understanding our climate-related risks. But as a business, the heart of what we do is all around hitting net zero and decarbonization. It also represents a huge opportunity for the business, and part of TCFD is recognizing the risk but also the opportunity. And I think in Ceres' case, we're in a somewhat privileged position that we're not just looking at this as a challenge, but we see it as a huge future for the business that lies ahead. Corporations like ourselves need to transition away from existing fossil-based energy from combustion engines. And many of our partners are facing these fundamental transition risk. We're seeing more and more government policy now towards a low-carbon future. We've seen the IRA bill in the U.S. We've seen Repower in EU. We see India with very proactive policies. We've seen in Japan recently coming to the party with big incentives for development of these kind of technologies and decarbonization. And with that follows capital investments as well from the institutional and private sector. So we continue to see, despite a challenging macroeconomic environment, the need for these kind of technologies because many companies like ourselves when they look at the TCFD and the risk towards the climate-related risks in the future, they need to actually adopt some of these technologies. And what I'd like to do is bring you back to the beginning of the presentation. I think when we started out on this journey, we we've been reporting formally on ESG for the past few years, and we're very proud of this, our second sustainability report. But first, this was always fundamental to something that we did every day at Ceres in terms of our purpose and our values. And now it's becoming more and more crucial why we need this. If you think about Ceres as having this unique bridge between green electrons, as we electrify more and more of society; to green molecules as we replace some of the materials that we have with low carbon or zero carbon materials in the future, the Ceres technology is really at the heart of that. And when you think about decarbonization of those sectors I mentioned earlier, like steel, like fertilizers, like fuels, like power generation, there's not many aspects of our daily lives that we at Ceres don't touch with this technology. We are addressing some of the climate mix that we talked about, but we also represent this huge opportunity for the future. And really, I don't expect you to read this, but it's in our report. But what that really translates to is our ultimate goal. And we at Ceres want to embed our technology into global multi-gigawatts of manufacturing capacity at the scale and pace that we need to achieve a net zero future. And that's fundamental to everything we do at Ceres, that's fundamental to all our people and it's fundamental to the way we operate the business. So I'm very proud of the work that we've achieved in the past year or so on the ESG agenda, and fundamentally, what we're doing to make a positive impact for the future. So I think we've guided you through today with the help of the executive team to the work we've done in the ESG environment. And I think with that, we can hand over to questions really, to bring this to life. Thank you.

Great. Elizabeth, I was going to say just while investors to have a few moments just to submit any further questions they may have. I'd just like to remind you that recording this presentation along with a copy of the slides and the transcript Q&A can be accessed via the Investor Meet company platform. Merryl and Elizabeth. If I may just turn back to you if I could ask you to read out any of the questions where it's appropriate to do so, and then I'll pick up from you at the end. Thank you.

Thanks, Mark. Merryl, are you jumping in. I think there's been some questions.

Yes. So there is one question that was provided before the presentation, which I think maybe we should -- we could start with. And just to the group in general, someone asked, what is the commitment to the PR agenda? And what themes will you position the work of Ceres around in respect to the commercial benefits of sustainability? I'm not sure who would like to jump in on this.

Could you just repeat the question? Sorry.

Yes. What is the commitment to the public relations agenda and what themes will you position the work of Ceres around in respect to the commercial benefit of sustainability?

Yes. I mean I'm happy to jump in on that. I mean, I think as we've spoken to, clearly, sustainability is at the very core of what Ceres does. And I don't think it sets us -- I don't think it sets apart from the agenda we have with all our stakeholders, and that very much includes our commercial stakeholders. There interest in our investors and our employees. As Michelle has touched on, many of the people that come to work for us are really driven by that agenda. And I think our partners are equally interested in how we intend to ensure that the technology is sustainable and scalable. And we'll move them away from existing incumbent sort of combustion technology. So I think it's absolutely key.

I think I would answer that. The most urgent things that need to be decarbonized are often, for us, the biggest business opportunities. So where there is an alternative easy win, if you can clarify something directly then you should do so. But where you need to actually use a fuel cell or use a green electrolyzer to convert electronic to a molecule where there is no other alternative, that represents the biggest business opportunity for us, and we're in a very commercially driven organization. So I don't see this really as being around the PR side of it. I think this comes down to the fundamentals of the business strategy. And this is still inherent to what we do. I think when we talk about the business progress, we will be talking about how that impacts sustainability because that just goes hand in hand.

Absolutely. As you've both just said eloquently, it's very much part and partial to our purpose. So I will have -- we've got another question that's come through the chat. And so one of the inquiries is with the huge potential for hydrogen, why do you think it is that the share price is suffering so much?

Sorry, I mean -- I have a very bad connection. Was the question, with this huge potential, why do we feel the share price is suffering so much at the moment? Is that the question?

Yes. Yes.

Okay. Look, I think there's things that we can control and there's things that are outside our control. I think we decided to pivot from not just the low carbon power fuel cells offers into the hydrogen side of the business just over 2 years ago. And we've been making very significant progress on the electrolyzer side of the business. And what we're seeing is a huge potential in front of us. And I'm very optimistic that we'll start to convert that opportunity into real commercial traction with announcements in the not-too-distant future. There is a backdrop, however, of inflation, rising energy prices, et cetera, which has created a bit of a risk environment for technology businesses like ourselves, not just Ceres, but across the whole hydrogen sector as a whole. So I think the thing for us as a business that we're focused on is the technology development and the commercial traction. And I think that's where we expect to see near-term progress. And then in the longer term, I think it's around the macro environment, the economic environment that we're all operating in today. So I think there's 2 factors impacting share price.

Great. Yes. I think lots of things contribute to share price. So I -- just to pull another question forward. Questions around our net zero strategy and when it may be presented, and then the steps that we're hoping to come from the exercise as we develop, as Mark touched upon, moving towards a carbon-neutral operations.

I think I'll answer that, Merryl. So we want to use the latest set of information from this 2022 report to from the baseline. If we're looking for reduction strategies, we need to know the starting point. And we will use that to clearly articulate a Science-based Target reduction line, which will allow us to achieve a net zero position commensurate with 1.5 degrees global warming by 2050. The steps that we're taking at the moment in collaboration with Ricardo is to look at, amongst those categories that I showed you in the presentation, which is primarily around our purchased goods and services and capital equipment. One of the key steps that we can take, which will make a material impact in reducing those things in line with the growth company mindset. So a typical example might be we spend a lot of money on steel. As you will have seen, it's a large part of our technology makeup. What is the pathway to lower carbon footprint steels, which will make an impact on those things. So we will, hopefully, conclude those workshops by the end of the year. That will be able to lay out the benefits of each of those step actions to reduce our carbon footprint, the costs of achieving those and the time scale that we can do those by so that we can verify that green line, I think it was, which takes us from an unmitigated line down to a fund at net zero position by 2050. We should have an agreed strategic position early part of next year, and we should be able to share the key elements of that not all the complete detail, but the key elements by the time we submit our important accounts early part of next year.

And look, as you might expect, we're taking quite a scientific approach to this. Because we didn't want to be another company that just sets a random target in the future and then aspires and hopes to get there. I think being very rigorous scientists and engineers, we want to be able to take our time and then actually set a target and know how we were going to deliver that. So I think that's the work that we're going to conclude very shortly.

Brilliant. Thanks, Phil. And there's a couple of questions that have come through on the Q&A function here, which I might just jump in with. Just firstly, someone identifies that we had a significant partnership with Weichai. Do we view that this sort of causes any particular political or social risks having a tie-up with China?

Look, I think the geopolitical situation is changing globally. Let's face it. We're in a very different situation now in regions like the Middle East or at -- with Russia, potentially with China than we were several years ago. However, if you actually look at carbon emissions and the industries that are -- need to be carbonized in some of these economies globally, China is something like, I think, 30% of all carbon emissions. And therefore, this technology is very relevant if we are to hit net zero globally. Not just in Europe or in the U.K. or in the U.S., but across the board. I think one of the things about the Ceres business model is it goes across borders. So we're not limited by -- you could argue that there might end up being a bit more of a protectionist policy around climate technologies, that wouldn't be helpful in actually achieving livable decarbonization. So we have a strong relationship with Weichai. That doesn't prevent us from forming strong partnerships globally in general. And the way that we work is we develop the technology, we enable localization of production at scale and pace to achieve decarbonization of those sectors that we need to address quite urgently. So we don't see any issues today with our business model, and we will continue to do so.

Yes. Brilliant. Thanks. And there's a couple here that sort of along the same theme, just can you remind us of the sort of logic behind moving to the main market, that obviously as Deborah outlined, comes with additional reporting requirements, not least TCFD. And just also another question not along the similar lines, which is about the understanding of the U.K. capital markets and building these kind of high-growth tech companies versus, say, investors in the U.S.. Any views on why we're listed here? Why we took that move to the main market, Phil?

Look, I think we took the move to the main market because we'd already been on the public markets in London for the best part of 20 years. The company has matured. Both in terms of our customer base, we deal with Fortune 500 companies across the board, our shareholder base and also the level of governance that we operate to. So it was a very natural transition to graduate from the A market to the main market in the U.K.. Now you could say, and we are living this at the moment, the U.K. can be quite a conservative place to grow technology businesses. And obviously, we continue to look at that. But I think for the company's point of view, provided we continue to do what we said we're going to do, grow these offerings and grow the commercial side of the business, then the U.K. is our home and that's where the majority of our employees are, our investors are. And we go from that platform. If we were to, let's say, jump off to the U.S., et cetera, I think we convince missed that we'll be one of many, and we could potentially get lost in that market. However, as we continue to grow, there's no reason why we couldn't look at other markets, fuels, things, et cetera, in the future. But this was a very natural step for us at this point. I think the macroeconomic environment right now for technology businesses isn't very healthy, but I think that can come back with some of some of the reversals around the inflationary pressures. And there is a lot of tailwinds there in terms of the government policy decisions that are in place and the need for these technologies. So I think hopefully, we can see a reverse the fortunes in the London markets as well.

Brilliant. Thank you. I think with that, we'll wrap up. We've taken some time up already, and thanks everyone for joining. We will respond to all the questions online. And if you have any specific questions for the Investor Relations team, you can get in touch directly with us at investors at [email protected]. Thank you.

That's great to present it to from Ceres, thank you very much indeed for updating investors this afternoon. Could we ask you please to close the session as we'll now automatically redirect you for the opportunity to provide your feedback in order that the company can better understand your views and expectations. This going to take a few moments to complete, but I'm sure it'll be greatly valued by the company. On behalf of the team from Ceres Power Holdings Plc, i would like to thank you for attending today's presentation, and good afternoon to you all.