Chegg, Inc. (CHGG) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

November 12, 2020

New York Stock Exchange US Consumer Discretionary Diversified Consumer Services conference_presentation 55 min

Earnings Call Speaker Segments

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#1

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, everyone. Thank you all so much for joining us today. My name is Nithin Pejaver. Along with my colleague, Tom Singlehurst, we are responsible for looking at the educational services sector at Citi. It is an absolute pleasure to welcome Andrew Brown, the CFO of Chegg, one of the companies that has probably had a ringside view of the ongoing COVID-driven disruption of the higher education space. Andy joined Chegg back in 2011. And before that, he's been the CFO of 3 publicly listed companies. In all, he has over 25 years of experience in the financial sector. Now before we dive into the Q&A, a couple of points to mention. First, although the session will be moderated by me, I do want to make sure that it's as interactive as possible. So if you do have any questions, please either enter them in the question box to the left of the video screen on the webcast. Alternatively, please e-mail them directly to me at nithin.pejaver@citi.com. That's N-I-T-H-I-N dot P-E-J-A-V-E-R. And I'll try to get through as many as I can. The second point I'd like to make is there are several disclosures that should appear at the bottom of your screen. If for whatever reason, you can't see them, please do reach out to us, and we'll try and e-mail a copy of those disclosures back to you. With that, let's dive in. Andy, thank you so much for joining us.

Andrew Brown

executive
#2

My pleasure.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#3

So maybe we could start off with a little bit of a background about Chegg, and we could use that as a launchpad for Q&A.

Andrew Brown

executive
#4

Yes, that would be great. So if you think about Chegg, we are a very different company than most of the education companies that you'll see in -- certainly, in the public sector, right? Most of the traditional education companies and even some of the newer edtech companies pretty much drive all of their revenue, not direct to the student but through the institutions or something indirect, and then it gets directed to the student. What we state our claim to, and I believe we're the only publicly traded companies, we go direct to the student. And so when you think about Chegg, we've got 40 -- approximately 40 million students that we service across the globe, down 2 distinctly different paths: one is the academic path, which has been the traditional route that we -- which is how we started as a company, and then more recently, down the skills-based path. So let me kind of walk you down the core of our academic path, and we've got really 4 key services in that path. And it's -- and once again, everything is direct to the student. So you've got Chegg Study, which is our flagship product primarily for college-aged students. It's $14.95 a month. It's a subscription-based product. It allows students to access the platform. There's about 40 million pieces of uniquely curated content that we curate and develop ourselves that the student can access along multiple different -- for multiple different reasons, things like Textbook Solutions, Expert Q&A where they can actually ask questions on the platform. We have video-based content. Students that want to assess their skills or their competency can do assessments. They can also do practice tests in advance of their actual tests. And so that's our flagship product, Chegg Study, $14.95. We have -- also, we have what we call Writing Tools. And those -- the Writing Tools are multiple web-based properties where approximately 30 million students access on an annual basis. It's a freemium model, and so there's a part of it that is supported by ads, and then there's a subscription model. The subscription itself is $9.95 a month. And essentially what all of the properties do, it allows the student to upload a paper. They will identify the citations that are needed and create a bibliography. That's the free component. And then the student can upgrade if they want help with grammar, sentence structure, plagiarism, things like that. So that's the $19.95-a-month subscription along with the ads. And the third subscription business that we have or a business line that we have is what we call the Math Solver -- Chegg Math Solver or, more recently, the -- we made an acquisition in the space called Mathway. And that's primarily a subscription-based business. And once again, the bulk of the subscriptions there are $9.95 a month. We also take all of those subscriptions together, and we bundle them together, something that we call the Chegg Study Pack. So Chegg Study Pack takes all of those 3 subscriptions, bundles them together and offers them to the student for $19.95, so a very significant discount for taking the Chegg Study Pack. So that's the core of our company today. And then the fourth service that we have, which is our -- which is kind of the legacy service, it's how the company started, is around textbook rental. And we offer really 2 things there. We offer physical textbook rentals, and then we also offer eTextbooks rentals. And so those are the core 4 services that we have on our academic line. And more recently, we started -- we -- about a -- actually, about a year ago, we kind of tipped our toe into the skills-based learning, which we believe is going to be a very, very big market. And it is a big market today, but -- and that instead of helping somebody down that academic route, what we're helping students do there or learners do there is a specific skill that's employed -- a specific employable skill. And that -- while that's a small business today, we do believe over time, that is going to be a large business. But once again, we just started in that space with the acquisition of a company called Thinkful about a year ago. So that's Chegg, 40 million students across the globe. In the neighborhood of probably 6 or so million of those students are actually paying for a service, mostly subscriptions and some rental through our textbook business. So hopefully, that's -- it kind of gives you a sense for what we do.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#5

That's great. That's a great introduction. So I'll get to Thinkful in a bit, but maybe we can start with the education services side of the business. Now Chegg has always been a prospering company, but the growth rate has been propelled to a different orbit in 2020. And there are a number of underlying drivers for that. So just sort of thinking about Chegg Study itself and particularly in the U.S., historically, account sharing has been an issue. And I suppose the first physical separation of students because of the pandemic has perhaps mitigated that issue in 2020. Can you talk about -- can you quantify how big an issue is it? How many people who are actually using the service without paying for it? And can you also maybe talk about some of the more proactive measures that you've worked on since August of this year?

Andrew Brown

executive
#6

Yes. So we've known for many years that students share accounts, and that's -- whether it's our subscription or other subscriptions. And one of the things we did intentionally many years ago was to decide, let's -- we wanted Chegg Study to just become ubiquitous on campus, and so we just didn't do anything about it. It's something that we've started to address last year, I guess it was, but on a manual basis. And the intent had been that we would have come with a more technological solution in 2021. And as far as how big it was going to be, I don't think we've realized how big it was until COVID came, the impact of COVID back in the middle of March. And what we believe we saw in the U.S. specifically was as students went off-campus, that ability to do what we call proximity sharing kind of went away because you're actually not around your fellow students, right? It was a lot easier when you're on campus to say, "Hey, can I use your Chegg Study account for an hour or tonight or something like that?" And so that went away. And it did -- we did see an acceleration in new subscribers as a result of that. What that also did for us was it also informed us that -- it informed us to accelerate the development of what we call device management and MFA, multifactor authentication. Because as kids go -- if when kids do go back on the campus, and they really haven't gone back on the campus at this point, is we wanted to take away that ability to proximity share again. And so we implemented device management in the middle of August, I think August 17. And that limits the number of devices that students can access on a monthly basis when they went with their subscription. And just to put it into context, we had subscriptions where we would see 10, 20, 30 devices access of subscription in a given month. I don't know any kids that have more than 3 devices, right? I mean 3 is a stretch. But when you got 10, 20, of course, they're sharing the accounts. And so we didn't have an ability until the middle of August to be able to limit that. We now have that ability to limit that. And we are doing that. And that -- like I said, that got implemented in August. And we believe that just pays dividends as we -- over the next several years because every time we get the new subscribers subscribing, they can't do what we've seen happen in the past where you can add -- do 5 or 10 or many -- we've seen many more devices accessing the account. So that got implemented in August. Yes. And so we have the things in place that we believe will eliminate the vast majority of account sharing that we have seen over the last several years.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#7

But maybe just a couple of sort of ballpark number to the issue, so for example in 2019, you had about 4 million services subscribers, of which I would assume an overwhelming majority are Chegg Study subscribers. So in relation to that 4 million number, I mean what's your sort of guesstimate maybe?

Andrew Brown

executive
#8

Well, and that's a problem being it would be a guesstimate. We've had a couple of other folks out there make estimates. I think it's fair to say that it's millions and not hundreds of thousands, right? So I mean I don't know the exact number, but we're pretty certain it's millions. And the challenge you've always got with that, right, is -- and the way we looked at it internally was, you've got your subscriber base, kind of the core subscriber base, and you've got people that are active users that are not subscribers. Then you've got casual users. And my guess is the folks that we won't capture as part of the device management are those casual users that -- maybe they only used it once a semester or twice a semester around finals or midterms and things like that. But yes, I think there -- I don't think there's any doubt this was in the millions, not in the thousands or hundreds of thousands.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#9

Understood. Then we have an investor question here, which is actually related to the Study issue. And the question essentially is, so impact of the proactive measures that you pushed in the third quarter for the incumbent nonpaying users, if I may, is the term. Is it going to be a slow trickle of people shifting over to paid users? Or is it going to be immediately that, "Look, I value the service. I'm not able to use it anymore," so you'll have like, X percent of the millions who are not paying for it immediately becoming Chegg subscribers?

Andrew Brown

executive
#10

Yes. I think you saw that in -- when you looked at our Q2 and Q3 results, I think you saw that. We were north of 60% subscriber -- year-over-year subscriber growth. So I think those people that were relying upon Chegg to help them through -- with their academic services, when I say relying, not the casual user, but relying on it and not paying for it, subscribed to this -- are now subscribing to the service. So yes, I do think that certainly happened and continues to happen. We will continue to -- as you've seen in our most recent results, we continue to see a pretty robust subscriber growth.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#11

Got it. And I'll ask you a broader TAM question in a bit. But in the context of Chegg Study and what we're discussing right now, between your paying users and the nonpaying users, I mean is that -- I mean so have you sort of saturated the U.S. Chegg Study addressable opportunity or other people who are not yet exposed to the service?

Andrew Brown

executive
#12

No, we -- it's interesting, right? So we look at this a lot. And we believe -- when we believe this for some period of time that we see a clear path to at least 10 million subscribers in the U.S. And we're not close to there yet, as you know. I mean we have 3.7 million subscribers at the end of last quarter. So we believe the U.S. market, it continues to be a growth market for us. And part of it, and you've seen -- one of the things I didn't talk about in the intro was when you think about Chegg Study, I always like to call it, it's kind of like Amazon Prime, right? I mean we add more and more capability which makes it more and more attractive to a broad swath of students. There's more value. I mean Amazon Prime, when it first came out at least in the U.S., it was 2-day shipping, and it was great, right, get 2-day shipping on anything. But Amazon Prime today is much more than 2-day shipping. Everything -- they started doing reruns of TV shows, then original content, then movies, then original content, then Amazon Fresh, Amazon Music. So Prime has become this much, much more robust and bigger. And likewise, Prime got many, many more subscribers to it. Study is the same way. What I didn't talk about is Chegg Study started out as Textbook Solutions only. If you went to Chegg Study 7 years ago, it was Textbook solutions only. Then we added the ability to do Expert Q&A. Then we've had the ability to learn via video, if that's your modality of learning. Then we added the ability to assess yourself. Then we added the ability to do practice tests. So you kind of -- so we're doing the same thing with Chegg Study. And as we add more and more capability, we -- and more and more value for the same price, we haven't increased prices, we believe it attracts more students. And you can imagine that we will continue to add more and more capability to Chegg Study. So yes, I think there's a clear path to 10 million students in the U.S. We're not close to being fully penetrated there. And as you know, we more recently started to expand internationally, which opens up a whole -- even a bigger TAM than you've got in the U.S. And so we're -- we believe we've got a multiyear high-growth path ahead of us.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#13

All right. And that leads very nicely to an investor question that we have here, which is essentially, obviously, international improvements. The international subscribers have been one of your growth drivers since the pandemic struck. So can you talk about which countries have been most promising and what you're doing over there?

Andrew Brown

executive
#14

Yes. So we started focusing on international at the beginning of 2019, right? So we're about 2 years into this. And while we had international subscribers prior to 2019, it was kind of a little bit by accident, right? We weren't actually doing anything to get them. They were just finding us because we're web-based. And it's -- if you're -- regardless of where you live, you can always -- you can access any website. And so I kind of -- it's a term we talked about internally, kind of a little bit brilliant by accident. But what we started at the beginning of 2019 has been intentional about our international opportunity. And it was everything from putting the right core technologies and systems in place, just simple things like being able to do multi-currency in our core systems to having unique content when there was unique content was needed for international customers, to investing in marketing, which we haven't done before. And we started to focus on what I'd call the English-speaking countries, right, Canada, Australia, U.K., with the thought being is that at some point in the future, we would go -- would expand beyond English-speaking, into English-learning and then non-English-learning countries. What we saw as a result of the pandemic is that as students went off-campus and they were looking for help because the help wasn't available on campus, and I'm talking international students now, is the first place you go to, you go into Google. I need help with this. I need help with mathematics, differential equations or physics. And we saw a significant acceleration in our international business, which is very small, by the way. It was very small. And what surprised us the most was it wasn't just the English-speaking countries, it was the non-English-speaking countries. And so countries like Turkey, Saudi Arabia, South Korea, we started to see tens of thousands of students access our site and subscribe from those countries. And so what that has done for us, and we talked about this more on our -- sorry, sure. It is a beautiful day, if you heard that. My phone -- is -- what that informed us, and when we talked about this more specifically on our Q2 earnings call, not Q3, was the acceleration of investments for international to be able to address that growth, capture that growth and things like -- and we don't have this in place now, but developing the technology platform to be able to have unique offerings or bundles on by country or by region, to have unique pricing by country or region or potentially to have unique websites that address that country or region. So you can imagine, in the future, we'd have a .ca site for Canada or a .co.uk site for U.K. and so forth. And so we're developing all of those technologies. And then on a more tactical level, we double down on marketing in many of the countries. And so that's what we have done. That's what we're seeing. We do -- while it's still a relatively small piece of our business, it is much bigger, much broader than we had imagined at the beginning of the year. And we are clearly leaning into the investment to be able to support those students.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#15

I'd imagine in at least some of these international countries, in-campus, face-to-face instruction might have potentially started. Have you seen any evidence of stickiness of these subscribers once they've gone back to face-to-face learning?

Andrew Brown

executive
#16

Well, it's -- truth be told, it's too early to tell at this point. But what I do believe and what we believe we have seen as a result of COVID is just an acceleration of what we call the inevitable. And we've said this, you've been with us for many years and we've always had -- we always have believed that it's inevitable that more and more learning is likely to be enabled by technology versus just kind of that physical on-campus presence. And we believe that -- we believe COVID has accelerated that. And so if students have accessed our services, and the beauty of our services, it's 24/7, 365, you don't have to be at a certain office hour to get help. And so we believe that there's just been a fundamental acceleration of that. So we don't anticipate that as kids go back on the campus -- and certainly -- I can tell you, certainly in the U.S., that there's going to be -- there are funding issues for colleges in the U.S., and our -- we believe what's going to happen is the things that will get defunded are more likely to be the on-campus help versus the actual class itself. And so I think a combination of conversation -- the combination of the technology and the lack of help on campus is certainly -- we don't see that changing significantly as kids go back on the campus.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#17

Got it. In fact, we had a company called to Studiosity based in Australia. They were on a conference yesterday. And this is something similar in terms of cost rationalization and [ university center ] and support services. So that's a point being taken. But just one last question on the international bit. I recall Dan sort of mentioning on the 3Q call that the profile of the international subscribers is not dissimilar to the U.S. subscribers. Is that broadly right in terms of take-up of study for [ something similar ]?

Andrew Brown

executive
#18

Yes, it's not so dissimilar. What we -- and we do track this, right? We track a lot of things. The -- what subject matters are more important. And we do see some -- it's kind of interesting for us, right? If you take a look at the top 5 subjects that students access our subscriptions for, the top 5 don't change in -- up the top 5. But what's #1 versus #2 changes. But no, we don't see a significant difference. What we are seeing, and we mentioned this on the last call, is we are seeing a bigger percentage, and this would -- this makes sense because they're newer, it's newer. It was seeing a -- a big percent of our newly asked questions on our Q&A platform coming from international. So over 25% of the new -- we already have a big archive, close to 40 million archive for the U.S., but we're now seeing a -- we're seeing international students ask unique questions, which is great for us because the beauty of our Expert Q&A is that we take those questions, and then we index them in the search engines. And it just -- it's got a flywheel effect as students go on to search for help. So yes, so we are seeing that.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#19

Got it. And just maybe shifting over to Writing Tools, the other large educational service that you have. It's mostly advertising revenue sort of product. I think in the past, you sort of articulated an aspiration to bring the share of advertising revenue in Writing Tools [ to be ] 50%. Can you maybe talk about how far away you are from that target?

Andrew Brown

executive
#20

Well, it's interesting, right? So the genesis of our Writing Tools product was an acquisition we made about 5 years ago called Imagine Easy Solutions, or IES. When we acquired that company, and it was -- when we acquired that company, about 85% of the revenues came from advertising, and about 15% came from subscriptions because their subscriptions -- the subscriptions they had weren't that robust. We did -- we developed a brand-new subscription that was common across all of the properties about 4 years ago, I'm guessing, 3.5, 4 years ago. And as a result of that, we've seen a significant shift towards that the split of that business being getting much, much closer to 50-50 as far as ads versus subscriptions. And it's not that the ads aren't growing, they're just not growing as fast as the subscriptions. And what we found was, if you really give the student a robust subscription product, they're more likely to take that -- more likely to spend that $9.95 versus just doing the free citations and bibliography. So I would expect, as I look at the Writing Tools business, if we're having this discussion 5 years from now, I don't think there's any doubt that the vast majority of revenues coming from Writing Tools are likely to be from the subscription side versus the ad side. Yes, I don't think there's any doubt. It's certainly moving in that direction.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#21

Understood. And that sort of leads me to an investor question that I have here. And the question essentially is, can you talk about your TAM, your addressable opportunity and how that has changed pre-COVID and as of today?

Andrew Brown

executive
#22

Yes. I don't think it's changed at all pre-COVID and post-COVID, right? I mean as we started to expand -- once we start -- once we made the decision to expand internationally at the beginning of 2019, the international -- we had about -- there's about probably addressable market in the U.S. from a paid customer standpoint, not a user, right? So I mean we have 30 million students that access our properties, mostly in the U.S., but I'm talking about paid students. It's really probably around, call it, 36 million students if you go all the way down into high school. And we do have high school students on our platform. And then when you add the international markets, you get slightly north of 100 million students that really legitimately could -- we could -- could be paying customers on Chegg. And so has that changed since pre- versus post-COVID? Not really. I'd say the ability to capture that market has certainly accelerated, right? We've made it very clear. The thing that has surprised us the most is, if you -- if we looked at the beginning of the year versus where we are today, it's been on the international side of the business. And in fact, if you look at the business in total from the beginning of the year to where we are today and where we're going to close based upon my guidance, we're probably about a year ahead of where we thought we'd be, right? We're about $100 million of revenue ahead of where we thought we'd be at the beginning of the year, and we're about 1 million subscribers. And so we're about a year ahead of where we thought we would be. And it's a combination of 2 things. We talked -- that we've already talked about. One is on the account sharing in the U.S. And the second thing really is the acceleration of our international business.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#23

And just sort of going back slightly, when you talked about the 10 million subscriber opportunity in the U.S., was that specifically Chegg Study or the Chegg Study plus Writing Tools?

Andrew Brown

executive
#24

The vast majority is Chegg Study. It's not all Chegg Study, but the vast majority is Chegg Study. Yes -- or Chegg Study Pack, too. I mean I'd throw Study Pack in there, too.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#25

Got it. So if we could maybe shift to another emerging driver of the top line, and that's the Study Pack and the potential there is for increasing the average revenue per user. Can you maybe talk about how you've been pleasantly surprised for the take-up of this bundle over the last few quarters?

Andrew Brown

executive
#26

Yes. So on Chegg Study Pack, like I said earlier, that's bundling all of our 3 subscription services together, which had a value of about $35, and we're bundling them together for $19.95. We did a lot of testing prior to rolling it out in January, and truth be told is we're seeing a much better take rate, as we call it, take rate than we've anticipated that we saw in testing. Did we not fully understand why? The answer is no. But the fact of the matter is we are seeing a more robust take rate. We are only offering it to new subscribers and resubscribers, so we're not injecting it into the renewal process at this point and most likely, won't because what happens with our subscriber base is typically, subscribed for a school year or a semester, then they'll unsubscribe and then they'll resubscribe. And so when you kind of go through that whole cycle, in about 2 years, you kind of get through most of the students. And if you resubscribe, you would be off of the Study Pack. So that's one thing. It is -- and it's -- like I said, it is doing -- the take rate is much better than we thought. But it's -- we talk about the Chegg Study Pack, and that's really just our first iteration of what I'll call a bundle. And we will continue to test other bundles over the next several years. In fact, right now, we are testing on a small cell. We're testing a third version of a bundle. Now you probably have to sign up 20 times before you got into that cell, but it's basically -- it's an offering that offers you not just the $14.95 Chegg Study and the $19.95 Chegg Study Pack. It's also got a Chegg -- what's called Chegg Study Pack [ Light ] for $29.95. And so we're test -- and you can imagine that we will continue to test and continue to refine our bundles as it were because we do believe that success on a premium-priced offering is that we can get 50% or more of our students up for that premium-priced offering. We're clearly not there at this point in time, but that would be -- how I would define success is something 50% or greater take a premium-priced offering, whether it's the $19.95. And [ once ] again, we will test other pricings. Whether it's [ 24 9 ], I don't know. I'm not the marketing guy or person, I should say. But yes, but I can -- certainly would be -- it'd be disappointing if -- once again, if we're having this dialogue 5 years from now and we're not close to 50% that are taking a premium-priced option, I think it would -- that would be disappointing.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#27

Understood. And that obviously leads me to a question on margins. So in fact, we have at least 4 or 5 investor questions on this topic, so touching various aspects of that. I mean broadly, can you talk about your margin development going forward, including your sort of guidance or outlook for FY '21? But let me just sort of mention a variety of investor questions we have here. How is your cost of acquiring customer spending right now? Would -- how -- what are your thoughts on international margins? Would account sharing be -- the crackdown be 100% drop-through to margins? Would the bundle be 100% drop-through to margins? So could you maybe just -- can you talk about...

Andrew Brown

executive
#28

That's a lot of questions there. Okay. So let me kind of just frame it from a -- at a more global perspective. If you take a look at what we have done over the last 5 years, you've seen increasing EBITDA margins. 6 years ago, we put it -- 6 years ago -- I think it's 6 years ago, we put a target out there of 25% EBITDA margins. We've lived through that 2 years ago, and we've expanded margins beyond that. Do I believe that margins expand beyond that? The answer is yes. Look at my '21 guidance. I've got 150 basis points increase in margins while making some pretty significant investments, particularly internationally. And so we are -- in my opinion, we are a long way from what I'll call a steady-state margin profile company. We -- the beauty of our model, particularly in our subscription-based businesses, is that the incremental margin on average subscription in -- certainly in the short term is essentially $0.95 to $1 could fall to the bottom line, right? And so then the decision becomes -- is what level of investment you want to make versus what you don't want to make, and we're balancing that right now. So like I said, for next year, we've said it's 150 bps. But we -- like I said, I expect margins to expand for several years. On the cap question, I think there was a question on cap, it's -- when I look at the U.S. in particular -- so I'll just talk about the U.S., then I'll talk about international. But if you take a look at the U.S. in particular, we haven't spent in absolute dollars on paid marketing that is, so paid marketing being keywords through several search engines, Google obviously is the main one, and then other advertising, Facebook, Spotify, YouTube and all those. But the absolute dollar amount that we've spent in the U.S. is basically being constant for 5 years, plus or minus a couple of million, right? And the reason is, is because we get so much of our new subscribers coming in, what I'll call, free or organic, right? It's everything from just going to chegg.com because they know the brand. It's word of mouth. And it's SEO. One of the things we do a great job at is SEO. So every new question that gets asked on the platform, we index it, right? So if a similar question comes up, we get the free search. And so more than 85% of our new subscribers come that way. And it's difficult for us in the U.S. to find what I'll call profitable scenes to use paid marketing. And truth be told, if they were profitable scenes, I'd spend $10 million more on marketing in a heartbeat. Everybody knows that in the company. We just can't find them. When it comes to international, we're finding similar -- we're finding it to be very, very similar but not quite as to the extent as the U.S. at this point, right? We're finding more profitable scenes where we can actually spend paid marketing. We have to say, metrics, right? So there's a certain -- what I -- averages on cap don't work, right? So what you're always looking at is that incremental customer. What does it cost to get that incremental customer? And we are finding more opportunities internationally. We're certainly spending more internationally than we thought we would at the beginning of the year, probably 2x or so, because there are those opportunities. And we are now doing that paid advertising by country and by region. And so -- so yes. So -- but we do seem -- once again, we are seeing very similar traits in the -- in outside the U.S. as we are inside the U.S., which for me -- which for us is very encouraging because it becomes a very efficient model from a cap perspective. We're not paying gobs and gobs of money to attract customers, which is why we have the confidence that if we expand internationally, continue to grow in the U.S., our margins will continue to expand.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#29

And how should we think about the margin headwind from your international investments?

Andrew Brown

executive
#30

I think it's a headwind. It's all baked into our model. I think we're certainly investing more in technology things there. I mean if we -- could we be a couple of hundred bps more profitable next year or this year even, well, we couldn't this year because it's so late in the year, but next year, the answer is yes. But I think that would be a really, really, really bad thing for our shareholders. I think what our shareholders are looking for is expanding margins -- consistent expanding margins. And to do that, you've got to make those investments. And so I think what -- the balance that we're doing right now is spot on, making the investments to capture that growth internationally, and then secondarily, at the same time, expanding our EBITDA margins.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#31

So maybe following on that theme, how should we think about cash flow conversion? And there's a couple of questions here on your CapEx plans going forward and what you're going to spend money on.

Andrew Brown

executive
#32

Yes. So what we said at the beginning of the year, and we certainly -- we have not updated that, is that we believe that our -- as we go into 2021 and beyond, that our free cash flow conversion was in that, call it, 50% to 60% of adjusted EBITDA. We will -- we typically update that once a year, which is in February. We'll update that. But regardless of what the update becomes is this is clearly a robust free cash flow model, right? It's -- and this isn't to say -- I'm not saying bad things about Netflix, but Netflix is -- we're very different when it comes to content than Netflix, right? Our content is very reusable, right? So if you think about STEM, STEM is probably not going to change 10 years from now. I mean science is science. Math is math, right? So a lot of our content is very reusable, and we get new users coming in year after year after year after year because kids matriculate. And so as a result, we don't have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on content expense or CapEx. And it allows us to have a very robust free cash flow model, and we don't anticipate that changing.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#33

Can we now maybe talk about the skills-based learning opportunity and what you're doing with Thinkful? You're obviously reworking the product, so maybe can you just take us through what's happening there? And at what point can Thinkful contribute materially to your numbers?

Andrew Brown

executive
#34

Yes. So maybe a little bit, kind of step back and talk about what are we doing in the skills space. We have believed for many years that the skills space is going to continue to gain momentum with respect to employers, where they're looking for a specific skill and employable skill and you don't need to have a 4-year college degree to get that skill and to be employable. We've been looking at the market for many years. We -- Thinkful became available. We were very familiar with the product. It was -- it's a direct to learn a product versus -- many of the skills-based companies are B2B, right, as you're familiar with. And we basically tipped our toe in with Thinkful. If I think about where's Chegg Skills will be 10 years from now, I think it will be much more expansive than Thinkful. I mean it's kind of like when you think about Chegg academic 10 years ago. It was -- we were a textbook rental business. And like I told you today, we've got 4 key services today. So I can imagine that 10 years from now that Chegg Skills is much more than just Thinkful, which is at the high end of the skills market, right? It's an immersive model that costs thousands of dollars. And yet there's other services out there that are $99.95, like $100. And so you can anticipate that as we kind of move our way through and evaluate the skills market, we're likely to have additional offerings and it will look very different 10 years from now. Most of that will likely come through acquisition. I mean one of the things that -- if you look at our -- once again, going back to the academic side, if you take a look at our 3 -- if you look at our 4 services, our 3 biggest services, which is Chegg Study, Chegg Writing and Chegg Math, were all -- the kernel or the genesis was an acquisition. Only -- the only thing we invented there was really the textbook rental model. And so I think that's -- and so I think that's the route we're more likely to take in the skills space where we're likely to add through acquisition. And I think our view is that as -- once again, imagine Chegg 10 years from now, you would likely to have a multibillion-dollar academic business, and you'd likely to have a multibillion-dollar skills-based business is how I view it. How we get from here today, which is Thinkful, to -- we don't know exactly, but I do think that's what you will likely see from Chegg. Like once again, I'm just imagining it 10 years from now.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#35

So in its current form, is Thinkful growing in line with the larger group, the services business? Or is it growing faster than the smallest ones?

Andrew Brown

executive
#36

No, no, Thinkful -- when we acquired Thinkful a little over a year ago, we said it was growing right around 30%. It hasn't really veered much from that at this point in time, and we didn't expect it to, right? I mean one of the things that -- and we have enough experience with acquisitions. It takes you a year or 18 months to really understand the instrument of the business. When you buy smaller companies like this, they're typically not instrumented the way our core products are instrumented, and so you don't -- just don't know the levers. And so that's the process that we've been going through over the last kind of year. We've pulled a couple of levers that you're probably familiar with. We always wanted to reduce the prices of the classes, and we've done some of that. We're still working out -- working through reducing some of the core costs in the business. But we want to make those classes more and more affordable for more and more people. But no, it's -- Thinkful's doing kind of what we thought it would do when we bought it about a year ago.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#37

Apologies. So one of first things that you've mentioned in today's session was fact that you're one of the few pure-play, direct-to-consumer companies in education. But when it comes to skills learning and Thinkful itself, is that a B2B opportunity for you that maybe into the [ perfect ] learning space?

Andrew Brown

executive
#38

Yes. It's interesting, right? So our DNA clearly is B2C or B2S, B to students; or B2L, B to learner, whatever you want to call it. But you're absolutely right. When you look at the skills space, there certainly seems to be the potential to be not just in the B2C space but also in the B2B space. And that's something, if we went down that route because, truth be told, we don't have that DNA, it's more likely that we would acquire ourselves into a B2B model. So that's more -- it's -- that's the route we went down because just -- it's really a tiny market. I mean for us to build a sales force, and so it's more likely that we would acquire ourselves into that. And that's certainly one of the possibilities as we look to the future in the skills space.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#39

Right. I'll come to M&A in 1 second. But this processing with direct-to-consumer and B2B theme. Is there an opportunity on the education side as well? For example, earlier, you mentioned how some of the support services which were rationalized during the pandemic had never come down in universities. So for example, is there an opportunity for you to build out more writing [ learners ] or something of that nature?

Andrew Brown

executive
#40

It is. And truth be told, we have had inbounds from institutions over the last several years as far as potentially using our services to a broad swath of their students. But it's not something we're going after intentionally, right? So we've got enough opportunities for us to keep taking our service direct to the student versus investing in the B2B. We will continue to respond to those inbounds, but I don't think you're going to see us, certainly not in the near term, and when I say the near term, the next, call it, 2 to 3 years, have any focus on doing some type of site license and things like that because that takes resources. We're going to put our resources more in what we're good at, and that is going directly after the student. Making the investments in international, like I talked about earlier, that's more likely what the route we will go versus going to the institution directly.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#41

Got it. Fair enough. Now I mean you have -- you're sitting on a reasonable amount of cash on the convertibles and of course your own internal accruals. I think in the past, you've sort of had a ceiling of somewhere around $100 million in terms of your acquisitions. Can you talk about your M&A philosophy going forward? Are you open to that big transformative deal? And what specific areas are you looking at?

Andrew Brown

executive
#42

Yes. So I don't think there's been a ceiling there, right? I think that's just kind of what has happened, particularly in the academic space. If you think about the academic space from a B2C standpoint, we are the gorilla, right? There's just not a lot of big assets that are in the B2C space. And any of the ones that are of reasonable size are all private, absolutely all private. And yet there's still even those private companies, there's nobody that has the scale we have. So could I see something transformative in the B2C? Probably not because there's just nothing there of size. Could I imagine -- and by the way, that's not that we don't have an appetite for that. Do we have an appetite to do larger transactions? The answer is yes. And we have in the past, at least I don't say, being involved in as much because they weren't really -- we have opportunities that come across our desk that would have been much larger. And I'll just give you a couple of examples because they went a different direction because we didn't want them. Look, 18 months ago, I think a company called Trilogy came available for sale. Trilogy, we took a look at it. It wasn't right fit for us, and 2U bought it, if you recall. I think that's about $700 million transaction if I recall correctly. More recently, Instructure became available for sale. That would have been about a $2 billion transaction. Obviously, the bankers came to us and take a look at it. We took a look. It just wasn't the right transaction for us, and we passed on it. But it wasn't our unwillingness to take a look at it. And that -- any one of those would have been -- I'm not -- certainly, if it would have been Instructure, that's more transformative. But I -- it's not -- it's something that we would look at, but it's got to be -- and I always use this term, I'm a golfer so I apologize for anybody out there that doesn't understand this, just Google golf. But we want to keep things in the fairway, right? So the ball needs to stay in the fairway, whether it's a small chip shot like we've done pretty much to date or whether it's a large -- a multibillion-dollar transaction, which would be like pulling out your driver. It's going to stay in the fairway. And one of the things that has probably held us back on some larger transactions really is valuation. One of the things that I think you'll see that we've done even on the smaller transactions we've done, we're not overpaying. And we're not -- and we don't need to overpay. We look at our business today the way it is. We don't need to add -- we don't need acquisitions to meet our financial targets. If we add, if we make acquisitions, it's going to be to accelerate those targets. Kind of like we did in math, right, it accelerated our opportunity in math when we did Mathway a few months ago. So that's where we are. We -- and just to kind of wrap this part of it up is we continue to be acquisitive. There's no doubt about that. We- I think probably 1 to 1.5 transactions per year. They have been small to date, but we're not confining ourselves to small transactions when they make sense.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#43

Okay. Excellent. I do realize we are almost out of time, but if I could squeeze one more question in.

Andrew Brown

executive
#44

Okay.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#45

Like I mentioned earlier, 2020 has raised Chegg to a different orbit on the back of the pandemic. More recently, as of this Monday, there's been some positive news along the vaccine. How do you think the new normal is going to be for Chegg once all universities go back to face-to-face education? Like, what's going to change?

Andrew Brown

executive
#46

Wow, interesting -- that's an interesting question, and I ponder that a lot, not just with respect to education just -- but to life in general, right, is what is -- because I don't think we're going to go back to what we thought -- what normal was before the pandemic is not going to be what we go back to, whether it's work, whether it's education. I think what you have seen on the -- in the education space and we see this in surveys, is that it's very clear that students and professors recognize that online learning is a credible path to learning. And so I think it's always been that case with students, but I think what we're seeing even with professors is that's available. So it is a legitimate way and is more likely to be a trend that you see. So I wouldn't be surprised. Once again, I don't know what the new normal will be, but I think it's becoming increasingly clear. Even as kids go back to campus, some of those classes are likely to be hybrid classes. They already are, but those are legitimate ways of learning. So we'll see. I don't think we'll know what that new normal is. Most likely, I think the earliest, in my opinion, is the fall of next year. I think there's got -- I think -- I don't think -- and it may be later than that, by the way. I think the key to that is not just having a vaccine done but having it widely available, right? And so I don't foresee that happening before the fall of next year. And like I said, it could be a semester later or even could be the fall of -- it could even be the fall of 2022. But what I do expect is that it will be a new normal. And I think it will be more -- I think you'll see more of a hybrid model, truth to be told. But we'll see.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#47

All right. Excellent. I believe we are completely out of time. We -- actually, we have [ fair ] number of investor questions pending here. Maybe we can connect the investors with you at a mutually convenient time at a later date. But this has been an absolutely fascinating session, and thank you so much. And Andy, all the best into the year-end, and we very much hope that we can persuade you to join us again at our next major education event.

Andrew Brown

executive
#48

Yes. Pleasure. Thank you, Nithin.

Nithin Pejaver

analyst
#49

Sure. And the second thing is thank you to our audience for sparing the time to be with us today. We very much appreciate your time, and hope you can join us for the sessions on professional learning tomorrow. In the meantime, goodbye and stay safe. Thank you.

Andrew Brown

executive
#50

Thank you.

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