Chemtrade Logistics Income Fund (CHEUN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary
November 13, 2020
Earnings Call Speaker Segments
Operator
operatorLadies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by, and welcome to Chemtrade Logistics Income Fund Q3 2020 Results Webcast and Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] I would now like to turn the call over to Mr. Mark Davis, President and Chief Executive Officer. Please go ahead.
Mark Davis
executiveGood morning. We thank you for joining us for our call today. I hope all of you are staying safe and well. Before we commence the review, I'd like to remind you our presentation contains certain forward-looking statements that are based on current expectations and are subject to a number of uncertainties and risks, and actual results may differ materially. Further information identifying risks, uncertainties and assumptions and additional information on certain non-IFRS measures referred to in this call can be found in the disclosure documents filed by Chemtrade with the securities regulatory authorities available at sedar.com. One of the non-IFRS measures we refer to on this call is adjusted EBITDA, which is EBITDA modified to exclude only noncash items. For simplicity, we'll just refer to it as EBITDA, and both of these terms are fully defined in our MD&A. As usual, Rohit Bhardwaj is on the call today, but like last 2 calls, we continue to be in different locations. As a reminder, Chemtrade falls under the essential business classification under U.S. state and Canadian provincial orders. So all of our operations have continued to operate during the COVID-19 pandemic. Our highest priority has been our employees' health and safety. By following the measures we've implemented, our employees have ensured that they can continue to work safely and supply our customers. Given the challenging circumstances created by the pandemic, our measures have been largely effective. I wanted to start this call by again thanking each member of our workforce for their dedication and outstanding performance during these trying times. On this morning's call, Rohit will provide a review of our third quarter results and a number of financing initiatives we took during the quarter. But first, I have a few comments on the general market conditions that prevailed during the quarter. Our third quarter results reflected the various matters we referred to in our second quarter call. Results were affected by continued weak demand for certain products and the deferral of our Vancouver turnaround. I'll briefly discuss the macro conditions that prevailed during the quarter as these provide some context for Rohit's more detailed comments. As mentioned, COVID-19 adversely affected demand for certain of our products. It has not affected our Water Solutions business. However, the ongoing pandemic continues to affect demand for our regen, merchant acid, sodium chlorate, hydrochloric or HCL products. Regen demand rebounded from its trough in the second quarter, but our third quarter demand was still about 10% lower than demand at the same time last year. Secondly, demand for merchant sulfuric acid, which is one of the world's most widely used chemicals, was also lower than last year due to the generally reduced level of economic activity. Thirdly, on our last call, we mentioned a decrease in the demand for printing paper as more people work from home. This affected our sodium chlorate demand, which was weaker in the third quarter than last year and frankly, weaker than we had expected. Finally, fracking activity and thus demand for HCL showed some improvement during the year, but remained well below 2019 levels. Turning to operations. Lack of contractors resulted in our deferring the planned third quarter turnaround of our North Vancouver chlor-alkali facility into the fourth quarter. This turnaround is now complete and the plant is up and operating well. Following Rohit's reviews, I'll have some comments on the future economic environment facing Chemtrade. Rohit?
Rohit Bhardwaj
executiveThank you, Mark. Good morning. I hope everybody is keeping well. Looking first at the aggregate results for the third quarter of 2020, revenue was $345.9 million, a decrease of $49.8 million from 2019. The decrease in revenue for the third quarter is primarily due to lower selling prices and lower sales volumes for hydrochloric acid and caustic soda in the Electrochemicals, or EC, segment and lower sales volume of regen and merchant sulfuric acid in the Sulfur Products and Performance Chemicals, or SPPC, segment. Aggregate EBITDA for the third quarter of 2020 was $64.7 million compared with $90 million in the third quarter of 2019. For the third quarter this year, EBITDA was $25.4 million lower than last year. As I will outline shortly, this shortfall was attributable to the EC segment due to low caustic soda prices and reduced demand and prices for HCL and lower results in the SPPC segment. This was partially offset by stronger results from the Water Solutions and Specialty Chemicals, or WSSC, segment, driven by our water business. Distributable cash after maintenance CapEx for the third quarter of 2020 was $12.1 million or $0.13 per unit. Distributions declared for the third quarter were $0.15 per unit. Now turning to segmented results for the quarter. SPPC generated revenue of $105.4 million compared with $127.8 million in 2019. The decrease in revenue in the third quarter of 2020 was primarily due to the COVID-19 pandemic, which resulted in lower sales volume for regen and merchant asset and other SPPC products. The most significant factor that negatively affected EBITDA during the third quarter of 2020 was reduced demand for merchant acid and regen services. Merchant acid demand was lower due to the reduced level of economic activity. As Mark noted, sulfuric acid is one of the world's most widely used chemicals. Government orders restricting nonessential travel and people working from home continue to reduce demand for gasoline. Therefore, refineries operated at lower utilization rates, which led to the reduced demand for regen services. EBITDA for the third quarter of 2020 was $31 million, which was $12.6 million lower than 2019. Our WSSC segment reported third quarter revenue of $119.8 million compared with $122.4 million in 2019. The slight decrease is due to lower sales volume of Water Solutions products and lower sales volumes of Specialty Chemical products, partially offset by higher selling prices for Water Solutions products. EBITDA improved to $29.2 million from the $24.3 million generated in 2019. The improvement was due to higher margins for water products, which benefited from higher selling prices and lower raw material costs. Our EC segment reported revenue of $120.7 million for the third quarter of 2020, which was $24.7 million lower than the same period of 2019. The lower revenue in the third quarter of 2020 was primarily due to lower sales volume for hydrochloric acid and caustic soda and decreased selling prices by 30% for HCL and 11% for caustic soda. This was partially offset by a 4% increase in selling prices for chlorine. HCL demand from the fracking industry has been sharply lower during 2020, and this has resulted in our having to operate the North Vancouver facility at reduced freight. As a reminder, we have ample demand for caustic soda as our core region is short of domestic supply of caustic soda and relies upon Asian imports for the balance. We are constrained by our ability to place the chlorine molecule either as chlorine or as HCL. Our core region doesn't have a lot of demand for chlorine, and we typically ship it as far as shipping rates allow. From an EBITDA perspective, EBITDA for the EC segment of $24.6 million for the third quarter of 2020 was $18.2 million lower than the same period of 2019. This was primarily due to lower selling prices for both caustic soda and HCL as well as the effect of operating the North Vancouver facility at reduced rates. Our production rate was constrained by reduced demand for HCL. In the third quarter, netbacks, that is, selling price with less freight for HCL were 43% lower compared to the same period of 2019. Turning to CapEx. Maintenance CapEx in the third quarter was $17.3 million. Maintenance CapEx in 2020 continued to be difficult to predict, primarily because of the uncertainty of being able to find contractors to carry out the work due to the pandemic. If we're able to hire contractors, we estimate maintenance CapEx of between $75 million and $80 million for 2020. Excluding unrealized foreign exchange gains, corporate costs during the third quarter of 2020 were $20.2 million compared with $20.8 million in the third quarter of 2019. The lower costs were primarily due to lower incentive compensation accruals. Turning to our balance sheet. During the third quarter, we took actions to completely redeem the debentures that were set to mature in 2021. To fund the redemption, we completed a public offering of $86.3 million principal amount of convertible unsecured debentures with an interest rate of 8.5% per annum. These funds, plus availability under a trade agreement, were used during and after the quarter ended to complete the redemption of the outstanding 2021 debentures at their face amount plus accrued interest for a total of $128.3 million. With the full redemption of the '21 debentures, we have no debt maturities until 2023. We maintain ample liquidity with USD 227.8 million undrawn on our USD 850 million credit facility. We are in compliance with all our bank covenants. I'll now hand the call back to Mark. Mark?
Mark Davis
executiveThank you, Rohit. The economic uncertainty caused by COVID-19 continues to prevent us from knowledgeably predicting with specificity the key elements necessary to make guidance meaningful. However, we can comment on certain key items that are expected to affect our earnings. We caution that COVID-19 continues to create a very fluid situation. And what we say is going to be based on our current understanding of our customers and our markets, which can and likely will change over time. Accordingly, the following comments should be read with extreme care, and we won't update them until our next MD&A. Turning to comments on certain elements contributing to Chemtrade's 2020 fourth quarter earnings are as follows. Regarding key facilities, as previously advised, we have a significant maintenance turnaround at one of our regen plants. The plant is tied to a once every 5-year major maintenance turnaround at this plant's refinery customer. Secondly is our North Vancouver chlor-alkali facility, also has its biannual turnaround in the fourth quarter instead of the third, due to availability of contractors. But as I mentioned, this has now been completed, and the plant is back online. Some comments on demand for the fourth quarter is that demand for many of our products continues to be weaker than last year due to COVID-19's effect on the economy. A couple of particular comments is that fracking activity and less demand for HCL has shown some improvement during the year and it remains well below 2019 levels. Demand for our regen services, which is dependent on gasoline demand, has been improving, but it's still about 10% below normal levels. Demand for printing paper remains low, as large number of people are working from home, which has led to a reduced demand for sodium chlorate. Finally, on the demand side, demand for our water products is stable. However, as a reminder, our fourth quarter is a seasonally low demand quarter with generally reduced water consumption in the winter months. We could also make a couple of comments on pricing. First, despite lower demand, pricing for most of our products is expected to remain stable in the fourth quarter. The main exception is pricing for caustic soda. The Northeast Asia spot index for caustic soda, which is very influential on our caustic selling price, settled at a very low level towards the end of the third quarter. It was approximately USD 50 per ton below the level relative to the same period in 2019. Turning to 2021, which is a more interest, I assume, we can make some similar comments. First, on key facilities. We expect all of our plants to operate well during 2021 with only normal turnaround activity and no atypical turnarounds like we had in the fourth quarter this year with our regen plant. On the demand side, as a general statement, we've expected that COVID-19 will continue to affect demand for certain of our products in 2021. However, we expect our sales volumes for 2021 will be higher than 2020. Some more specific demand comments are as follows. With respect to WSSC, we expect demand for our Water Solutions business to be similar to 2020 and continue to be largely unaffected by COVID-19. Regarding SPPC, regen and ultra-pure volumes are expected to be higher than 2020, but still below pre-pandemic levels. And on merchant acid, we expect volume to be similar to 2020 levels. Regarding demand for our EC products. Our North Vancouver chlor-alkali plant is expected to operate at a higher level than in 2020 when we had the biannual maintenance turnaround. The plant's operating rates in 2021 are expected to be constrained by HCL demand. If there's increased activity in the fracking industry and our HCL demand increases, we can run the plant at higher utilization rates. Finally, on the demand side, sodium chlorate demand should be higher than in 2020 but still lower than historic levels. Demand will be affected by the extent of work from home during the pandemic reduces paper demand and thus reduces bleach pulp production. And finally, some comments on pricing. Most of our products do not experience a cyclical pricing. However, caustic soda pricing, as most of you know, can move significantly. In 2021, we expect that the Northeast Asia spot index for caustic soda should move higher during the year. The long-term supply demand characteristics still support upward price movements for many years. During 2021, pricing is expected to start increasing and to continue increasing for at least several years. Recall that we generally incur a quarterly lag between our caustic soda price and movements in the index. Due to this lag, unless the price indexes move up soon, the annual index level for 2021 is expected to be lower than 2020 despite the upward movement during the year. Finally, given the reduced demand for sodium chlorate, there could be some pressure around sodium chlorate selling prices during 2021. To summarize, we believe that the severity of COVID-19 in 2020 will result in 2020 being a trough year for Chemtrade. This has been much more than a typical recession. In a typical recession, parts of our business such as regen and chlorate are not as adversely affected as they were in 2020. These businesses were hurt because of the curtailment of nonessential travel and requirement of people to work from home as opposed to just the typical reduction in demand experienced in an economic recession. We expect 2021 to be better than 2020. And as the effects of COVID-19 on the economy dissipates, we are well positioned to take advantage of better economic conditions and generate higher earnings. I would like to add that these comments were all drafted and prepared as was our MDA before the recent announcement of the Pfizer vaccine. We actually have no particular view about how quick and how effective their vaccine will change the effect of the pandemic. But obviously, the quicker people and the economy gets back to normal the quicker we will benefit from it. As a final comment, I'd like to conclude by letting you know that this will be my last conference call. As you will have seen in our news release of yesterday, I've decided to retire on February 28, 2021, at which point I will also be stepping down from the Board. Scott Rook will be appointed to CEO and the Board on March 1, 2021. Scott is well prepared to drive improvements in Chemtrade's performance and he, of course, along with Rohit, will be happy to answer future questions on future calls. Thank you. That concludes our remarks. And operator, Rohit and I will be pleased to answer any questions.
Operator
operator[Operator Instructions] Your first question will come from Joel Jackson from BMO Capital Markets.
Joel Jackson
analystA couple of questions. I'll go one by one. Obviously, the fourth quarter is typically your weakest quarter. You called that out this year as well. The last couple of years, we've seen the fourth quarter maybe about $20 million EBITDA lower than the third quarter. So sequentially, this year, you've got some heavy turnarounds, lot of stuff going with COVID. Is that about the right amount is about $20 million? It should be similar sequential decline in the fourth quarter as usual? Or is this year different?
Rohit Bhardwaj
executiveYes. I mean I don't think we want to really get into that specific about Q4. I think what the right way to look at it is we've pointed to the 2 big turnarounds, Richmond and North Van. In the past, we've said each is about $5 million of an effect. And then, I think, we got to think about the fact that regen is coming back. If you compare to last year Q4, regen is coming back. And to the extent, it's down a bit. The impact is not going to be as severe as normal because we do have the large turnaround in Richmond, and Q4 is a seasonally low quarter. So operating rates will not have as severe an impact. But we are still looking at merchant being down and we -- the other thing you should think about is we now know that the caustic soda index settles for Q4. And as Mark pointed to a USD 50 per ton lower. So I think you have to kind of do that kind of math as opposed to go sequentially. I think you're better off starting with last year Q4 and then kind of modeling in a couple of these things that we've pointed to for Q4.
Joel Jackson
analystThat's helpful. And then I appreciate the comments on '21. You talked before about kind of normalized Chemtrade earnings being kind of $300 million to $350 million range. If we assume sort of a normal -- sorry, seems like a reasonable caustic recovery across '21, as you talked about, is it reasonable to expect you can get at least to the low point of that range next year? Anything you can provide to be a little more granular would be helpful. Maybe even you could talk about -- you talked about water in '21.
Mark Davis
executiveSo look, it kind of goes like this. Water is going to be -- going to continue to be good. It was good this year. It's going to be good next year, right? SPPC should see improvement because we shouldn't have that trough in regen in the second quarter, right? How much better depends a little bit. I'm not a little -- how much better depends on how quickly the economy recovers between driving miles and therefore, refinery utilization rates and general industrial activity, which, as we said, hurt us in the third quarter. So it's a question of how quickly. And all that is, I don't want to say knits and bits. That's all important and actually it's all better than this year. But to get to the numbers that you're talking about, I mean, one of the factoids is that the Northeast Asia spot index for caustic is actually at the lowest point it's been in the last 10 years, it's about $210 right now. The 10-year average -- if you want to talk about run rate stuff, the 10-year average for the spot price is $350. So up USD 140, $150 a ton, right? So if you normalize for what caustic pricing should be and if you get some recovery in the HCL markets so you can run Vancouver at full rates, is you put all that stuff together and that's how you get to those numbers.
Operator
operatorAnd your next question will come from Ben Isaacson from Scotiabank.
Ben Isaacson
analystMaybe just a follow-up to Joel's question. Maybe I'll ask it in a bit of a different way. Fed Chairman Powell came out yesterday and said that any economic recovery will lead to an economy that doesn't -- that won't ever look the same as what it did pre-COVID and work-from-home is here to stay. And so when you think about that and maybe in that context, you could discuss what kind of trough to peak EBITDA is in each of the 3 segments? And if you assume, I don't know what the right number is $60 million of kind of corporate negative EBITDA. If each of the 3 segments are at trough, can you fund your distribution at that level?
Mark Davis
executiveWell, the answer to the last question is yes. To the more detailed question, I'm going to answer it differently for you, right, is that if you believe what Powell says, and I don't necessarily agree or disagree, but if you go through our business, again, is the WSSC segment has been largely unaffected by the pandemic, right? In our SPPC segment, okay, you get affected 2 ways. One is driving miles and second is general industry or merchant acid demand, right? Although the world might not return to normal, as Mr. Powell says, I believe that Americans are going to drive historic miles. So I think our regen business will actually come fully back. And if you look at the trend that's been on the last couple of years, it's actually been improving every year and that should continue to do so, right, which actually leaves Powell's comments about what the new world can look like in the EC segment, right? And as you know, we have 2 moving parts in the EC segment. We have the chlor-alkali part and the chlorate part. As far as chlor-alkali is concerned, is and again, we've all talked a lot about chlor-alkali, but the big general statement is that the chlorine derivatives are the vinyls snaps back faster than manufacturing does, and that provides a mismatch of supply and demand between the chlorine side and the caustic side. So once the economic recovery has some duration and some breadth is we're back to, in our view, the supply demand characteristics, which actually should use caustic pricing even though the world looks different. So you take all that and you actually, in our view, you netback to sodium chlorate, right? And in a general statement year-over-year printing paper production is down about 20%, driven by work-at-home, right? So the question is, how much does that reverse, okay? I'm not sure it reverses 100%, right? But there will be some reversal. And when there is some reversal that increases demand for our sodium chlorate and snugs up that market. So a long-winded answer to say is I don't disagree with Powell, that actually, the world is going to look different when actually it comes back to life. But I suspect the biggest effect on Chemtrade is the fleet's pulp production in North America and what that does to sodium chlorate business. Rohit, I don't know if you want to add anything to that or...
Rohit Bhardwaj
executiveI'll just add one thing, which is really drilling a bit down into the Northeast Asia index for caustic. So the other thing that's been happening there is the differential between the spot price in Northeast Asia and the contract price in Taiwan has widened considerably, has gone up to $150 differential. Historically, it's about a $30 differential. So this kind of a dislocation -- these kind of dislocations can occur when there's extreme shocks to the economy like we've had with the pandemic. But really the -- for a contract price to be that far away from a spot price doesn't make sense. And the fundamentals will support kind of the differential getting narrower again. So 2 things at play. One is the, going up just because of the fundamentals of chlorine and caustic molecule getting back into sync, and the other thing is the differential shrinking. So that gives more credence to have recovery in the caustic market.
Ben Isaacson
analystThat's great. And just as a follow-up, looking at your yield at 13% almost, and you're not alone, Enbridge is at 9% right now. When you think about that yield, what do you think the market lacks in terms of confidence and in terms of letting that yield sit there? I mean when you break it into controllables versus noncontrollables, you guys are kind of checking the boxes that you can. And when you talk about a recovery in '21, do you think that's really what investors are doing, is they just nervous about when that recovery starts? Why are investors leading that yield so high?
Mark Davis
executiveWell, I can ask you why Scotia's yield is so high, too, but I won't, right?
Ben Isaacson
analystThat was a good point.
Mark Davis
executiveLook, I think there's a bunch of reasons. One, I think as a general statement. I think there's great fear everywhere. I guess they went back up again, right? But I think there's a couple of things that are particular to Chemtrade, right? One is we've made no bones about it that we're more highly levered than we'd like to be. And it's our game plan to reduce leverage. So I think actually, we get penalized a little bit for that. And then secondly is, historically, we've been a much more stable business before we actually acquired Canexus. Now we acquired Canexus off chlor-alkali earnings rate, which was substantially below where we are even today. But that has actually introduced a great deal of cyclicality into our earnings. So I think -- my guess is, you take those 2 comments, plus the additional cyclicality for shareholders that weren't used to it. And I think it's a wait-and-see story. And I think that when that index starts to move in the right direction, which we believe it will, I think there'll be a rapid effect on our unit price, but I could be wrong. But that's my best explanation of all that.
Operator
operatorAnd your next question will come from Jacob Bout from CIBC.
Jacob Bout
analystAnd Mark wishing the best in retirement.
Mark Davis
executiveThanks, Jacob.
Jacob Bout
analystWanted to start just with North Van. Did you build enough inventory to offset production for the quarter?
Rohit Bhardwaj
executiveSo there's -- I mean we can build some inventory. But frankly, at these -- at where the caustic price is right now because also to build inventory, we got to move the chlorine, right? So we're already constrained with moving chlorine. So it's hard to -- we already are trying to sell out as much as we can. So if we -- the only way you could build inventory of caustic is if you had excess market for chlorine. So we do a little bit. But frankly, it's not really enough because of the constraints we have on the chlorine side.
Mark Davis
executiveIf your question is directed is, can we keep our customers supplied? Yes. If it's directed at, do you have enough inventory so that you won't see the cost effect of the shutdown in the quarter? The answer is no, you will see it.
Jacob Bout
analystOkay. And you said that the plant is fully operational at this point?
Mark Davis
executiveYes.
Rohit Bhardwaj
executiveYes.
Jacob Bout
analystOkay. Any update on the civil lawsuit for General Chemical? And let's -- just remind us again, what's still outstanding there?
Mark Davis
executiveYes. If you recall, and actually, if you're successful in being able to block out this stuff like I try to, the only thing that's left are some of these derivative suits brought by one particular employee in 3 or 4 states. And those things are continuing to slowly wind its way through the various straight courts. Some have been dismissed. Some of -- there's motions on some of them. But the court world has also drastically slowed down in light of COVID. So we remain at the same views that actually is -- there's not a material risk to Chemtrade, but I'd like to tell you that we've put a stake in the heart of all those, but it's just slow going. But again, from a financial perspective, is -- we think we're there.
Jacob Bout
analystOkay. And then the $19 million write-down in SPPC. What was the rationale for this write down?
Rohit Bhardwaj
executiveSo we are rationalizing some capacity in the Gulf Coast, where we have a plant that we felt we could actually generate additional returns by shutting down that facility completely and moving the production to another facility, we are able to spread our costs out. And frankly, it does have a -- should have a knock-on effect on the market as well.
Mark Davis
executiveSo this is the last trough of process. If you remember, maybe a year ago, we actually said that we stopped producing regen acid at this facility, right? And this is just winding down the rest of it.
Operator
operatorAnd your next question will come from Paul Bilenki from TD Securities.
Paul Bilenki
analystAnd congratulations, Mark, on the upcoming retirement.
Mark Davis
executiveThank you.
Paul Bilenki
analystSo just to start off, I was a bit surprised that the SPPC segment, EBITDA was essentially flat compared to Q2, given the better refinery utilization rates, and I would have thought maybe overall industrial demand for merchant would have also improved modestly. What were the dynamics at play here as to why there wasn't some quarter-over-quarter improvement there?
Mark Davis
executiveLook, there's a minor thing, right? The one minor thing is the hurricanes that were down there, wasn't a material hit to us, but it probably cost us a couple of million bucks. The bigger thing is, your comment is right about refineries. But what I think surprised us a little, too, and again, to be honest, is that despite what you read in the newspapers is, I think, a bunch of industrial production in North America was actually weaker in the third quarter than it was in the second quarter. The second quarter hit drivers, right? And that you saw it in refineries. But the third quarter seemed to hit general industry, and I say that because the biggest reason we actually didn't see incremental increase is that our merchant asset volume and therefore, profitability was down. So again, we view that as a COVID effect that didn't make the newspapers. Everyone saw the refineries and people not driving in the second quarter. But I think the effect on industrial production in the third quarter was lighter than people knew about, and that affected our merchant acid volume, which affected our profitability. So those are the 2 points really.
Paul Bilenki
analystOkay. Great. That's very helpful. And maybe staying with that segment, and the last piece of -- last big piece there, ultra pure. In your 2021 outlook, you noted that you expect ultra pure demand to be up year-over-year, but still below pre-pandemic levels. In recent quarters, I thought you had stated that it was not really being impacted by the pandemic and that you could sell -- still sell as much as you could produce essentially. Have you seen any softening in that business recently? And can you speak to what's going on there?
Rohit Bhardwaj
executiveSo the -- there's always some short-term stuff that happens there, but the long-term fundamentals are still very strong. U.S. is still short product. There's actually potentially some new capacity might be required there in the next 2, 3 years. So while there are some short-term supply chain kind of issues that come up from time-to-time, we still think that the future there is really strong in the U.S.
Paul Bilenki
analystOkay. Great. And turning to the Water Chemicals, you've done a really good job stabilizing that business and then growing the margins. Looking ahead, I know you said that you expect the volumes to remain relatively stable next year. Is there anything more you can do on sort of the margin side to drive additional EBITDA growth? Or is the $100 million annual level sort of the right way to think about that business moving forward?
Mark Davis
executiveI think, look, we're going to continue actually growing margins, but the step change growth that actually you've seen over the last couple of years is going to slow down because we did a lot and fixed a lot, right? But we still have plans and desires to actually continue growing the margins, and we will. Just that actually the material increase you saw over the last couple of years, actually, that will dampen down.
Operator
operatorYour next question will come from David Newman from Desjardins.
David Newman
analystAlso congrats, Mark, on the retirement.
Mark Davis
executiveThank you.
David Newman
analystHydrochloric acid obviously been the limiter on utilization and whatnot, as you flagged. And what is the actual utilization that you're seeing in this current environment because of that limiter? And, I guess, the second part of that question would be, does the Biden administration limit the limiter, I guess, so to speak?
Rohit Bhardwaj
executiveSo I guess in terms of the capacity utilization, we are running at about 75% or so capacity utilization. We think it should start to go up. And your question on the new administration, the expectation is that there will be higher stimulus spending, which should be a benefit to general industrial activity. But as you know, the HCL is very much driven by fracking. And we think that, again, oil should start to go up, and the predictions are that we should start to see over $50 oil, which is a good sign for fracking. And fracking can turn on a dime. As you know, it happens, those decisions are made on a weekly basis, so can quickly ramp up. Yes. So all in all, I think we already are -- we'll expect to see utilization rates higher next year in North Vancouver. And that's without building in a very strong HCL recovery. And if we do see that oil go up, then it could be better than that.
David Newman
analystAnd what's the actual conversion rate now of the chlorine? And if you look at the mix that you have, I know you made an effort earlier in the year to kind of push it towards industrial, do you think that fracking might be partially impaired? Or what's your view? And does it give you sort of strategically thinking about maybe reallocate more of the hydrochloric acid to other areas?
Rohit Bhardwaj
executiveSo we -- right now, we are converting about 25% of the chlorine molecule into HCL. We have the ability, as you may recall, to go up to 60%. So we are definitely on the low end of where we are today. And in terms of HCL, yes, we did develop an industrial market. But again, there are some limits to how big that market is. So frankly, we are moving more chlorine even though it's being moved at -- the marginal ton is a kind of even at a loss times on a netback basis. So we do have the flexibility to go back into HCL now -- into fracking. Now fracking what's interesting is there's traditional fracking. They've also used in oil fans of different technologies with HCL being used there. And of course, on the longer-term horizon, there's still that whole LNG project which is still in the works. You don't know when it's going to be, but it's 2 years out or whatever, but the risk is there. Plus, we will consider looking at other uses for chlorine, whether it's other derivatives that we can tap into. But we are trying to -- right now, we are moving as much HCL as we can into the industrial market.
David Newman
analystOkay. And then if you look at the -- I'm not sure where we were in 2020 versus 2019, et cetera. But the turnaround, as you head into sort of 2021, what's sort of the anticipated slate of turnarounds, I guess, into next year in terms of quarters and where?
Rohit Bhardwaj
executiveYes. So it's the normal activity. So 2020 was unusual with the -- unusual in the sense North Vancouver was every 2 years. And the regen one is once every 5 years. So we should go back to kind of 2019 frequency and of turnarounds. In terms of quarters, we do tend to have them slightly higher in Q4 and Q1. That's -- so I think you should look back at 2019 as kind of the frequency, but nothing unusual in '21.
Operator
operatorAnd your next question will come from Endri Leno from National Bank.
Endri Leno
analystMost of my questions have been asked actually, but just one. I was wondering if you -- how do you feel about your covenants, I mean, with the Q4 being a bit hit and 2021 looking a bit weaker? I mean do you see any need to amend the covenants on your credit facilities again?
Rohit Bhardwaj
executiveSo when we did -- the short answer is no. The short answer is no, but we did -- when we went and got covenant amendments, we purposely took a very negative view of the world, and we went out 2 years. So we are well below -- the covenant, for example, is going to be 5.25% and we are at 3.6%. So even if you model in a weaker Q4, we're going to be no way close to the covenants.
Operator
operator[Operator Instructions] Your next question comes from Steve Hansen from Raymond James.
Steven Hansen
analystMark, I'm just going to reflect back. This might not be a question for you. It might be for Scott or Rohit here. But just your comments about EC segment or Canexus introducing more volatility or cyclicality in your business. I mean how do you feel about that business in the portfolio longer-term as you stand here today? It's, obviously, not something you want to sell in the current environment. I recognize that. But is this moving up your thoughts around what you want to do with that business longer term?
Mark Davis
executiveWell, we've had to talk about before. But if you remember, we bought it off a really, really low run rate of earnings, right? And we've set a number of sessions and still will, right? The macro supply demand characteristics, which would have been distorted by COVID, are still really positive for that business. And for lots of years, 5, 7 years of increasing pricing, right? Although they don't go out that far, I guess, they go out 5 years, right? And we think it's a nice business. And although it actually added some cyclicality is -- it's also cyclicality primarily on the upside, and we think it's actually beneficial. And when you couple one cyclical business with businesses that are generally stable, we think it's a nice collection of assets. Having said all that, is in February, you get to ask Scott and see whether or not he disagrees with me. But that's the current headspace. And I think the company as a whole is much better with it than it would be without it.
Steven Hansen
analystNo, that's helpful. And just to try and get a sense for what we should be monitoring to understand the limitations on North Van and in particular, Rohit already talked about some of the cadence, some of the HCL and the chlorine. But is it the general economic activity in just the BC region that you're looking to move? Or how far out should we be looking for that radius to understand where you're vacating because the way I think about it is fracking rates and activity levels were actually up a little bit lately. So it really strikes me that it's the economic activity levels on chlorine that has been a limiting factor. So I'm just trying to get a sense for where and how we should be watching here to get you back to full rates of the plant?
Mark Davis
executiveI'm going to tell you that it's a complex equation because it goes like this, right? It's actually expensive to move HCL and chlorine, but you can move it, right? So the question gets to be is, how far can you move it and what do you get back in order to let you sell caustic. So the higher-priced caustic is the further you could actually move those other products and find a home, right? So we sell HCL beyond just Western Canada. We sell down into the U.S., into the Midwest, California. We move lots of chlorine down the West Coast of the U.S. right? But it gets to be an analysis of your margin on your ECU unit as a whole and where you start knocking into other competitors, right? So you get to look at broader than just fracking in Western Canada. And you can look at fracking in the Midwest and in Dakotas, right? And you could also look at are some of the vinyl guys want to use more of their own chlorine internally and vacate some of the markets they serve for other purposes. But it's a complicated analysis from the outside.
Operator
operatorYour next question will come from Paul Bilenki from TD Securities.
Paul Bilenki
analystJust one more quick one. You recently entered into your receivables purchase facility. Would you be able to share at all your expectations on the amount of receivables you're expecting to sell under this facility and the timing there?
Rohit Bhardwaj
executiveYes. So we did enter into this facility. It's for a select group of customers. And so we could, I would say, on average draw maybe $40 million or -- between $40 million, $50 million. And basically, it just reduces working capital and gives us optimization of cash. It's a reasonably priced facility and it's a nonrecourse facility. So it does have the benefit of being totally nonrecourse. And so -- and off balance sheet, so it doesn't affect any covenants. Yes. So it's just a positive. I wouldn't say it's a huge thing, but it is a bit positive here.
Operator
operatorI have no further questions in queue. I turn the call back over to the presenters for closing remarks.
Mark Davis
executiveWell, as usual, thanks, everyone, for their attention. As I joke, I think this is only my 78th consecutive analyst quarterly conference call. So I will happily turn over next quarter to Rohit and Scott. But thanks for everyone's attendance, and I will look forward to seeing you all at some point in time. Thank you.
Operator
operatorThank you, everyone. This will bring the conference call today to a close. You may now disconnect.
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