City Developments Limited (C09) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, friends from the media, analysts, bankers, investors and fellow CDL colleagues. My name is Belinda, and I'm the Head of Investor Relations and Corporate Communications at CDL. As we are still within the Chinese New Year celebration period, so I take this opportunity to wish everyone in this room, a happy healthy and prosperous year ahead. [Foreign Language] So on behalf of the CDL management, welcome to CDL's briefing on its unaudited financial results for the full year ended 31st December 2025. Now this is a hybrid briefing format with both in person here at the M Hotel Singapore and those joining us live on webcast. and joining us virtually. So thank you all for being here with us this morning. For today's briefing, in line with CDL's environmental sustainability conviction, we will not be providing printed materials. Instead please scan the QR code on the screen to download or view the following documents that were uploaded to SGXNET as well as our website before trading this morning. Now on this website, you will find a copy of the detailed financial statement. A press release summarizing the key highlights of our FY 2025 performance presentation deck that the management team will be using in a very short well. So for all our guests joining us live on webcast, you will similarly be able to download these documents, which are available on CDL website. I would like to introduce to you our CDL management panel. In the center, we have our Executive Chairman, Mr. Kwek Leng Beng. On his right, we have Mr. Sherman Kwek, our Group CEO, on Chairman's left is Mr. Kwek Sheng, our Group Chief Operating Officer; and on his left, Mr. Chia Yang Hong, our Group General Manager; and nearest to me, Ms. Yang Yin Ming, Group Chief Financial Officer. Now the format of today's briefing will be in 2 parts. We will kick off with a presentation of some of the key highlights of our performance followed later by a Q&A session with our panelists. So without further ado, I would like to invite Mr. Sherman Kwek, our Group CEO, to kick start the presentation. Sherman, please.

Good morning, everyone. Good to see you here again. It feels like the last analyst briefing was a long time ago, but really it's every 6 months, and happy to be here, albeit every year I see you, I have less hair but good to see you all. And this year, obviously, we're going to have a more positive and upbeat results to report. So we started off with a slide that shows you, I think, the key achievements that we did last year as we committed to everyone we were going to accelerate our capital recycling -- and we're happy to announce that we have achieved $2 billion in divestments -- and we were very selective in our acquisitions. So really, what we invested were in 3 GLS sites in Singapore as well as a hotel in London, in Kensington. And at the same time, I mean, you can see that last year was a very strong year for us in the Singapore local market. In terms of residential sales value, we achieved $4.35 billion, which is the highest in our group 63-year history. So we're really pleased with that. The 1.657 number includes ECs as well. So if we use the corresponding number released by the URA, including ECs, it's about a 13% market share, shall be higher if we excluded ECs because last year, we sold more non-ECs and last year, it was good to see that the market came back with more stability and strength. Last year, the total developer new home sales was about 10,800 with a modest price increase of 3.3%. So this has really outpaced the 3 years preceding that where annual volume is about 6,000 to 7,000 and of course, the high was in 2021, right, when we saw about 13,000 new home sales and a price growth of close to 11%. So actually, we like that. I mean we think that that's a sign of a more stable, healthy market where moderate price growth, but the volumes have really come back and we've also seen that the core central region, the CCR has also come back in favor. I mean there were a couple of years where really the RCR and the OCR will getting all of the action. But last year, it was good to see that CCR was finding favor. Again, I think it's a change in lifestyle. And of course, whichever region you're talking about, I mean bulk for the buyers tend to be Singapore and majority, Singaporeans or PR. So there's a very small percentage of foreigners buying. And that's same with Newport residents as well, which our profile later. And across our commercial portfolio, you can see that Singapore office, Singapore retail and, of course, are also sizable U.K. commercial, which is the 3 commercial buildings we have there, all showing very stable and strong occupancies. And our hotels managed to eke out a higher -- slightly higher RevPAR, even though globally, the performance was quite mixed last year. So in terms of our FY 2025 financial highlights, we have revenue of $3.6 billion, which was a 9.7% increase from the year before. And obviously, we have a really nice PATMI of around 630 , up over 200%. PATMI have been high [indiscernible] Yes, so called even closer to $800 million, not for the fact that we thought it would be a prudent time to do some impairments. So we did $155 million of impairments and for impairments and foreseeable losses, mainly for our 2 China commercial properties 1 was this Shenzhen, which is a business part and business parts are primarily office in nature. So the commercial market is really struggling very badly in China, which should not come as any surprise to all of you. And then the other 1 is also for commercial complex in Shanghai. So that was a bit of a pity, Otherwise, we really could have reported an even stronger set of results. But Nonetheless, we're still happy at where we have been our NAV and our -- well, I'll use the NAV, the 1 where fair value IPs and hotels, I mean, is narrowing. I mean -- despite the fact that we did a lot of capital recycling last year and had contracted divestments of $2 billion. But NAV has gone up because as we sell and especially above book value, we're really crystallizing a lot of value. And obviously, that goes into retained earnings, which drives up the NAV. So really glad to see us narrowing this gap and unlocking the value and as some of you would have seen this morning when we released our results, I mean, hopefully, the dividend comes as a nice -- as a welcome news to our shareholders. We proposed a final dividend -- ordinary dividend of $0.25. So added to the 3 that we paid in the interim, it's $0.28. And which is a 40% payout ratio. And at the same time, we've also committed to a new dividend policy because in the past, it was -- while as management, we had always articulated that we will try to pay out 1/3 every year. But was really never formalized in our policy. So we thought, I think it would be a good thing to really show our commitment to sustainable shareholder return. So we will pay a minimum of 35% of reported PATMI every year. And share price last year really has rebounded nicely. I mean, of course, we had some of our own internal issues in the earlier part of the last year, but we're glad that we managed to get them resolved. And despite the macroeconomic challenges we pushed forward. Global portfolio. Obviously, the 1 worth looking at is the bottom line because that's where we fair value, so you get a full sense of our assets line. Singapore has always makes up around half of our asset base with the rest spread towards U.K., China and others. Yes. So as mentioned earlier, I mean, we are really strong hard to ensure that we recycle capital at a higher pace, especially since we wanted to try to bring our gearing down. Gearing did go up in the end because we ended up winning more GLS in Singapore than we expected. And of course, we had that hotel acquisition but all in all, Gearing is at a manageable level, and we will target in the midterm towards bringing it down in a very significant manner. So just to give you a snapshot of the last couple of years from 2023 to 2025, what our capital recycling focus has been like. most years, the blue bar, the investments acquisitions will usually surpass the yellow bar. But last year, we were fortunate. I mean, where the gold bar actually was higher, and again, that was because of our efforts to accelerate our recycling. Two things I want to mention here. So 1 some of you would have heard me say this before, is that the gold bar includes all the land we buy in Singapore. But obviously, when we develop into residential and sell the individual units, that's not in the blue bar. So it's a bit of a mismatch and it works against us in a way, but it's a way to be very disciplined, okay? The second thing to mention is that sometimes you will see now results financially. I mean, in our accounting, there may be some difference in terms of when the acquisitions or divestments happen, but we don't double count. So an example is [ STN, ] right? I mean we signed the land tender with the government and were awarded the land in December 2024, but we only made payment like in January, right? So I count that in our acquisitions in 2024. But cash-wise, the cash only left our balance sheet and therefore, financially, P&L-wise as shown in 2025. Likewise, last year, as you know, we announced a bevy of divestments and all were completed in 2025, except for Keyside arm, okay, in Sentosa. That 1 was -- so when the deal goes hard, when I sign and it goes hard, we show it as a divestment. So that was in December last year, so just 3 months ago, but we actually completed in February. So again, a bit of this accounting mismatch, but we -- as I said, we don't double count. So we show that strictly in the year that we announced it, that's the year that gets shown at, but sometimes on the P&L may be a bit different. This is our Singapore residential launch pipeline. So really happy that we have a launch pipeline of 1,820 and we look forward. I mean to, hopefully, replenishing a little bit more land this year, even though we are very fortunate to have won 1 of the first few tenders of the GLS tenders of the year, which is [ Tangzhong Ru, ] which is an amazing location, and we're very excited to unveil our project there. And that's a 90-10 JV with our main contractor, [indiscernible] and as you all know, the other sites were acquired last year, which is Woodlands Drive 17, Senja Close and Lakeside and Lakeside will be launching in the second half of this year. And you can also see some of the launches on the right-hand side that we had launched 2 last year, 1 this year, 1 was the Orito and that has done really, really well above our expectations. The Zion grant, which also did really well. So I was very relieved and pleased to see that. And of course, a new port which thankfully has also done well, which we launched in January. So this is a Newport residence. This is part of a mixed-use complex, used to be the Fuji Xerox tar. So we're revamping it into residential at the top, service departments in the middle and office in the lower 1/3 of it. And it is freehold and really glad that I think we have achieved good sales average pricing that we've achieved so far. I know there's been a bit of confusion in market because the [ 337 ] is actually what we've priced it at and target to achieve for the whole project. But -- so currently, it's around 3,200 thereabout. So that's the actual pricing. So sorry if there was a bit of confusion the way we wrote the news release. But really excited about this project, we really designed it to be a super luxury -- ultra-luxury residence. And of course, I'm still waiting for that -- that unique by the contact us to buy that very special penthouse unit that 13,000 square-foot single-story penthouse unit with dedicated lift just for that unit and dedicated car parks as well. So Hopefully, we will secure that buyer in the course of the next few months. Then there's our commercial property, which our commercial properties in Singapore have been very resilient. The last couple of years, the office and retail markets have been very stable, both from a rental and occupancy perspective. So good to see that our buildings are doing well as well. One big news was the strong pre-leasing commitment that we did at Union Square Central, which is the former Central Mall, and we bought Central Square next or from Fast Hospitality Trust. Magee, it was total of 3 sites amalcamated it together. And developing this new mixed-use development. That's going to be very exciting when it's done. So the office component, we have leased up 52% to a single tenant, a government agency. So really happy with it for a very long lease. And -- but the project will only complete in around 2029, so a couple more years to go. And then we have also driven AEIs. As you all remember, in 2018, we did the AEI for Republic transfer, Tower 1. So including the lobby and everything, that was really big works. That took us 18 months and around $60 million to get that AEI done. So that was a very, very tough effort, but really happy. We've seen very positive rental reversions after doing that. And so we thought we can't leave out its young smaller sibling, which is Repaplaza Tower 2. So we've done that now and more or less completed AEI just progressively doing the Lyft modernization. So really happy with that to and committed occupancy is 100%. Then the cities were more where we also went through a big AEI. I hope some of you have been to see it since we've completed and very excited with the mall and how it looks now, and it seems to have received a very positive feedback from all the visitors. Global hotel portfolio, and we continue, I think, to look towards refurbishing some of our hotels that are located in strong locations so that we can continue to optimize our portfolio. So -- we have M Social Resort Penang as well as Social Hotel in New York Downtown, both of which used to be branded Millennium. So these are the hotels. And then, of course, we have ongoing development in Sunnyvale, which is in California. -- and that's for a 263-room hotel as well as we are currently undergoing the AEI for this Millennium Hotel that we have in Knightsbridge on Sloane Street. Global living sector portfolio, it's gone down slightly because we did sell off our Sunnyvale PRS. So the Sunnyvale multifamily asset. So it's around 3.7% now versus 3.9% before Sing dollars, but it's still a sizable portfolio I have to admit, we have not monetized it as fast as we should have really us building up this was, firstly, a diversification for CDL, other than doing our usual residential for sale and offices and retail for lease. This was something that was -- the living sector is something that we really believe. And then -- it's something that plays up to our expertise, right, of development -- property development, asset management as well as hospitality, right, service. So we really focused on investing in this sector over the last couple of years and I built it to actually, I would say, a very good scale -- and there are many assets in there that are performing very well. But we did this not only to enhance recurring income and diversify asset class, but really was also to seed our fund management. So I have to admit the fund management efforts have been slower than we would have liked. But we are very, very focused on that. So this year, I hope to really accelerate that. So I can come back with good news to you by the time the half year results swing around. So -- but it's a very, very good and nice portfolio for us and lots in there that we can play around with from a private and a public markets perspective. I thought I'd just put up this slide also because I realized that in reading the analyst research reports, many of you occasionally will write about these sites. So -- and yes, this is what we call legacy. It's not super old, but it is from acquired between 2013 and 2017, okay? And it's -- there's an external development manager that's managing all these projects. And we have to say that this portfolio has underperformed. So therefore, we endeavor to recycle this as quickly as we can. You will see that we have sold Ransoms Wharf -- so we did that at the end of 2024. So we're happy that was sold for about GBP 70 million. But -- and then of course, Sydney Street was a development where it's 9 units, and we have gradually sold that. And so all those 9 units are sold out. But there are all these other sites that we have to clear out, right? There's [ per billion ] road, which is currently operating as a car park. And that 1 should give us a very strong gains because we are receiving a lot of very outsized offers for that property. It's very near the Harrods. Then there's a Stag Brewery, which is a 1 million square foot of land development in Richmond in London. Stag Brewery is probably the site of this brewery operations, hence called stage. It's in Mortlake, Richmond. So this one, as you all would have seen in the news as well, last year in 2025, we finally got planning approval after 10 years. So -- it's -- now that we got the planning approval, we want to -- definitely, we don't want to build it out. So we're going to move to see how we can monetize this as quickly as we can. Development house is actually an office building that has permits for redevelopment. But we are assessing, again, how best to unlock value there. Teddington Riverside is a bit said, it was a land that we bought and then we actually have built out and completed the buildings with a total of 224 residential units, but unfortunately, 148 remain unsold. So -- it's something that we really have to accelerate more and some things we're looking at are potential bulk sales of the units to buyers that may be interested -- so -- and then the lastly, CheshanStreet is a very upmarket place in Belgravia, -- but -- it's 6 units, but again, took a very long time, and we only sold half of it. So -- so again, all this with ransoms, it was almost close to $1 billion. So now it's about , it's about $800 million that's sitting on our balance sheet. So this is something that we are very committed to unlocking the value there and monetizing it. So I just wanted to flesh this up since I know it's been mentioned quite a few times. I won't spend too much time here. But last year, we were also grateful to have received industry accolades. And we did make a sizable donation us in partnership with our Chairman, Queen. So together, we donated the SIT, and there's an administrative building there named in favor of him, in allo of him. And of course, we also launched the CDL EcoTain City Square Mall, which has been very, very popular with a lot of visitors, especially those with interest and sustainability. And of course, the rest of the accolades on the right. As mentioned earlier, we endeavor to give sustainable shareholder returns. I -- this was some of the feedback that we have gotten from investors, which is why is there no clear dividend policy articulated. So I think we really discussed it as a management and a board, and we decided that, look, let's really commit to paying minimally 35% based on our reported PATMI, of course, this year, for 2025, we have decided to do a 40% payout ratio. And I think, yes, I mean, there are some companies out there that probably have more aggressive dividend payout ratios. But I think we also need to ensure that we leave some flexibility. There's always a balancing act between us using the cash to pay down debt or to deploy for new acquisitions and investments. So we thought will give us some flexibility. But at least it's a floor and it's a commitment to our shareholders, and it's something that's sustainable, right? I mean if I -- go out announcing some super high number. It may come back to TripMomin the future. So yes, we're happy to announce a total dividend of $0.28 for the year and a record TSR last year 62%. -- last slide for me before I pass the Yim Ming, we continue, okay, to look towards our value creation and our value unlocking. We have to continue to drive forward with our capital recycling. As I've mentioned to you all before, this is not a one-off that we're going to do for 1 year or 2 years. From now on, capital recycling to be every much a part of our business as property development and asset management, right? I mean we don't just develop properties to sell or manage our office and retail portfolio. I mean we're also in the business of investment, right? I mean, things like our Osaka Hotel, we buy it. And 2 years later, we sell it for 60%, 70% above valuation that's a sign of a good investor, and we will not hesitate to monetize opportunities like that. So really, we have the capital recycling is business as usual for us. And to me, it's it's core, okay, because it's part of what we do. And in portfolio optimization, we continue to optimize and see where are the geographies and asset classes we need to be in. Fund management. As I mentioned earlier, something we do need to pay more attention to and put in more effort into accelerating need to continue to keep our eyes focused on the ROE, although that's more of a midterm thing because I need all the other pieces to fall in place and then ROE will take care of itself. Capital management, we are still prudent about managing our cash, our gearing recurring income. We continue to drive that, and that's been helped also by our living sector portfolio. Diversification is still important. Singapore is an important market to us. We'll always remain probably our biggest market but we do need to have a diversification across geographies and asset classes and of course, sustainability, right, something we have to do our part for the world. And I guess before I hand it over to Yim Ming also, I may as well just mentioned this since it's also people in the market have gotten wind of it is that sometime in around September, last year, we engaged a global advisory firm to help us do a strategic review of our entire strategy and operations. We are still in the process. The first step that they did was do an investor perception audit, so reach out to a slew of our buy side and sell side in order to really get feedback for us, right? How are we viewed by the market, by shareholders, by investors, by analysts, where are the perception gaps? And this feedback has been extremely helpful and has allowed us to then journey on together with them and are so for management and the Board to really go on this journey where we want to come up with something that will be -- that will close this perception gap. And that will give you even better guidance as to where CDL is heading towards and allow you to measure us and hold us more accountable for what we say we're going to do. So we're still in the process, so I can't talk too much about it. But in terms of time line, I hope that by no later than the middle of the year, by June, no later than June. I hope we will be able to announce something to everyone. Okay. Thank you very much on to Yim Ming and I'll field your questions in Q&A later.

Thank you, Sherman. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. So I'll start off with this chart. So pleased to report there's growth in all 3 operating segments across all 3 key metrics, Revenue, EBITDA and PBT. And 3 is my favorite number. Okay. For revenue, the group reported a 9.7% increase in revenue for FY 2025. This slide shows revenue by each segment. While PD contributes 33% to total revenue in FY 2025. The increase in revenue is actually attributable to this segment, which increased by 24%. The steadfast execution and successful sale launches are commendable, and our Singapore PD segment delivered a stellar performance. Projects that contributed included the Mist Norwood Grand and Union Square residences as well as the sale of ransomware and the office component of 1 city center in Suzhou. Joint ventures are equity accounted for, and the revenue do not include these JV projects. On a like-for-like basis, the revenue from these JV projects would have contributed $1.8 billion to 2025 revenue. Hotel operations ticks up 46% of total revenue and increased 1.7% in FY 2025, following a 1.3% increase in RevPAR. The increase in RevPAR is due to Australia and New Zealand portfolio, New York hotels, rest of Europe with the acquisitions of Houghton Paris Opera in May 2024 and holiday in Kensington in December '25. One outstanding hotel -- it's also in U.K., which is a bit more Minar. Please go visit day if you visit the U.K. This more than covers the power performance in Singapore, where RevPAR decreased 5.5% due to -- not the other hotels that we didn't do as well as Beijing hotel, which has weaker or because of the China economy slowdown. For investment properties, the revenue is driven by higher contribution from City Square Mall as well as Tongchuang Shopping Center in Pukit, following -- reaping the benefits of our AEI programs. [indiscernible] $5 billion for FY 2025, 43% higher than 2024. EBITDA demonstrates strong cash generation and is one focus area we look at very closely. Our target is typically a $1 billion annual EBITDA for healthy cash generation. This outperformance $1.5 billion EBITDA was due to our capital recycling gains. PD property development EBITDA increased 81% to $261 million for 2 other than projects earlier mentioned for revenue contributors. The other JV projects that contributed to EBITDA included the fully sold EC Copen Grand, which optinTOP this year, Kenning, the Orica as well as Temporent. . For FY '25, Sherman mentioned, we made a $8.5 million of foreseeable losses. For hotel operations, EBITDA increased 35% for FY 2025. This EBITDA included capital recycling gains from JW Marriott and comfort in -- excluding such capital residement gains and impairment write-backs. -- hotel operations EBITDA dropped slightly by about 5% with cost pressures as GOP margins fell 1.4% due to weaker performance largely in Singapore and Rest of Asia. For investment properties, they are the biggest contributor to EBITDA, contributing 46% of total EBITDA. This segment saw substantial capital recycling gains, offset by impairment losses relating to 2 commercial properties in China, 1 of which is slated for sale and has been transferred to asset held for sale. Notwithstanding the our resilient performance of our commercial properties and the growing living sector reflected about 8% of performance in this asset performance. Next, we'll move on to PBT by segment. The explanations are largely similar to EBITDA earlier. PBT more than doubled to $772 million. Once again, investment properties is the biggest contributor. And all 3 segments reported improvements in PBT versus FY 2024. This can is peak. For hotel and investment properties, they improved by 33% and 145%, respectively. And property development improved multiple force. This is due to the fact that profits from property development is lumpy in nature. So in last year, there was no EC TOP. There was high financing costs, and there was construction delays. 2025, we have a TOP for 1 of the EC as well as very good construction progress and the softer financing environment. PBT is impacted by financing costs. On financing costs, our gross interest expense has decreased by 12% to $520 million. We hope to see this trend further down in 2026, sounds like Broken record, we depreciate our investment properties and in challenging circumstances like today with where we encounter valuation headwinds. I think this conservative accounting policy of depreciating does benefit in its benefits. On capital management, continue to have strong and robust fundamentals. We have a balanced debt expiry and currency profiles for bonds expire in 2026, we will look to issue new bonds. Gearing at 71% vis-a-vis last year at 69%. So we mentioned other than the $1.7 billion acquisitions for 3 GRS in the hotel. We also paid for Syntiant site as well as CapEx on our investment properties. So this is offset by our recycling efforts of IB that Sherman mentioned earlier. Cash of $2.1 billion with uncommitted undrawn credit facilities of 4.2 very, very strong position. But if you wonder why is the cash drop from $3.1 billion to $2.1 billion is because we have set it money in December 2025 to pay for Syntiant. So interest cover also improved to 3.6x on the back of stronger EBITDA. So for fixed debt, we are at 44% down. 70% of Singapore debt is actually fixed and 11% of GPP debt is fixed. So this puts us in an advantageous position. We are able to assist better opportunities or rate cuts by the Bank of England. Average borrowing costs went down nicely to 3.7%. And the last slide for FX risk, we do not take speculative position. We do a lot of natural hedging. So we're very comfortable with a 77% natural hedge. I think if 1 were to ask, why is the renminbi hedge is a little bit low, and we all know that we cannot borrow for land in China, which is why that's a slightly bigger exposure for in. So other than that, we acknowledge there's challenges in USD currency, there's volatility, but we are managing it. It's definitely within our risk tolerance levels as well. So with that, I hand over back to Belinda.

Thank you very much, Sherman and Yim Ming for the presentation. We would like to move to the second part part of today's briefing, which is the Q&A. Please feel free to ask your questions, and my colleagues are standing around the room with microphones. And if you have any queries, those who are joining us on webcast, you may post your questions by clicking on the question tab. So before asking your questions, may we please request that you introduce yourself and the organization turn that you represent. Okay. So I'm going to just go straight into opening up the floor. Okay, I have a Mervin first.

I'm Mervin from JPMorgan. Congrats on the strong results and strong share price performance, which I think reflects the market's confidence in your leadership Sherman. Two questions from me, how we can maximize value, improve the operations. Is there anything particular feedback that resonates with you the most? And where is the main perception gaps. Second, question is on cost of debt, a significant drop to 3.7%. Any guidance for this year? And if you were to sell your U.K. assets, the $800 million, how much is the current U.K. debt at this point? .

Yes. I mean we received a lot of very detailed feedback, which was extremely helpful and some from the analysts seated in this room, those who the firm picked. And -- there were many more gaps, perception gaps than we realized. So -- and I think certainly, 1 of the things we look towards doing is rightsizing our portfolio as well as ensuring that we retweak our so-called capital allocation priorities from a geography and an asset class perspective. So that's something we're still in discussion. I mean -- and there may be some changes that may be coming up. And also, of course, I think 1 of the things that came through very strongly from this exercise was on the disclosure side. While I think I've traditionally viewed us as a company with pretty good disclosure. I think we've been pretty open and transparent about all of our activities and our results and the things we are doing and our strategic priorities. But certainly, one thing that we could do better, I think it's to provide more sign post more way finding for investors to show them how we're going to progress forward in the next couple of years. And to really -- so that they can really figure out for themselves if CDL executes on everything that they have laid out, okay, what will the CDR of 3 years or 5 years from now, what would that look like? And do I like what that looks like, right? So that can also form part of an investor -- so-called determination of whether to invest in our stock. So I think that's the fair thing to do is to provide a stronger guidance and more concrete numbers behind it. So these are the things that we kind of got out from it. Yes, on a more macro -- on a more micro level on the strategy side, there are also quite a few things feedback that I think we take very seriously. Obviously, we can't talk too much about it right now, but it will probably involve rebalancing some of our portfolio, too. Second one, I think, Yim Ming, you can take.

Yes. For cost of debt guidance, I don't expect anything more than 3.5%, and that's probably conservative. And for U.K., that portfolio, I mean we do central treasury as we have said many times. So we will obviously -- unless we have some good investments would obviously go towards reducing that in entirety. .

Okay. On the first row, maybe Derek take yours off and then move the second one. .

I guess just on the results itself. A bit of a good record Pete, but just a bit of noise over there. If you strip out all the one-off investments impairments, et cetera, what is the core Padme and we could be -- that we are looking at? That's first question. .

Okay. Derek, -- before I let Yim Ming answer that, I just want to emphasize again okay, which I had mentioned just now, I think it's not I don't think it's appropriate to look at these so-called capital recycling activities as a one-off because firstly, as I mentioned, it's going to be business as usual for us going forward. If I so aside from developing property and managing our office and retail. I mean if I invest well in something and I sell it 2 years later for a big profit, so that doesn't count towards my earnings. I mean -- as I said, CDL is also a good and astute investor. Yes, I mean, we've had some steps over the years, but generally, I think we've done well on our investment. So I think we really shouldn't keep seeing that as noncore. And likewise, on the flip side, right, I mean, if I invest in a commercial property in China, and it does really badly, and I take impairments and write-downs. That should be held against me. We should be held as a management team accountable for what we've done, right? If we keep stripping off all these one-offs, right, then then it will be very easy. I'll just focus on doing property development and everything else is noncore, right? So again, I would be careful about how we use that term. But I get where you're coming from. So maybe I'll let Yim Ming answer that.

So sorry. doesn't that like the question clearly Yes. By having said that, yes, . So we reported about $330 million of PATMI. So if I were to exclude divestments as well as impairment losses, which have made substantially, it's probably in the range in -- so as we mentioned, from a management perspective, we don't look at that as a key performance measure. We really look at EBITDA and we look at reported PATMI and ROE. So I guess that probably contextualize us how we look at things as well. .

Yes, that's fair. I mean to your point as well, you are going to link dividend payouts to reported PATMI also. But I guess with you going forward, will you give -- and you alluded to more corporate governance as well. Would you I guess, formalizes the divestment targets in your outlook? .

Yes. So capital allocation as well as divestment targets are part of this internal strategic review that management and the Board will go -- is going through with this advisory firm. And so therefore, we are excited by midyear to hopefully announce something that will be well received by shareholders and investors. .

Okay. And just 1 last question if I may on -- we put the U.K. development -- U.K. legacy platform, $800 million. Mortlake step brewery is in there as well. So can you just take it that you are planning to divest entirely .

Short answer, yes, Derek, the intention is to divest that whole portfolio -- so we are working on it. I mean, some of that stuff, as I said, 1 has already divested the site for GBP 70 million [indiscernible] . So but we will accelerate the so-called the monetization of this portfolio. This year, certainly, we want to accelerate this faster. .

Okay. Let me just move to the second row, Shan, maybe you'll go first and then I'll move down. .

This is Shan from Goldman. Just a follow-up on dividends, right? -- the $0.25 as soon as ordinary. And is that absolute laon that you will keep going forward? Because that actually implies $220 million, which is above your core PATMI. So then -- the second question is then on divestment. Is that also your underwriting assumption that there will be a minimum level of divestment gain going forward?

Shan. So or in -- just for a second, like. It was about dividend, sorry. I was thinking about your second question. And then Saigon the first one. Okay. So the dividend -- the final dividend is $25 million, but added to the interim, it's 3, right? So it's $0.28 for the year. So a 40% payout ratio. And you are asking?

So most companies will keep the ordinary flat. That means that same model is .

I got a ton. I went through 1 of those moments when I was thinking about something else Yes. In the past, CDL had this habit, right, of declaring a lot of so-called special dividends, right? Our interim is special. There there's a special final and ordinary final I mean I think we discussed it at length at the board yesterday and management's recommendation is to probably do away with this terminology or special. I mean, it's really not that special. I mean we've committed to it now. our dividend policy, right, of a minimum of 35% or more. So I think anything within that range should not be considered special. It's something that we have committed to doing. So it's an ordinary dividend. Now if we were to do some means to be seen, it depends how unlike another developer who has made a Board announcement. I will not be pegging our dividend to the like growth divestment value or something. But again, our reported PATMI captures all that in, right? So I think that's a very fair metric to use when we have pegged our dividend policy to it. . So -- and the second part was since I was still in twilight zone wine just now. Yes. So I've answered that as well, right?

So Yes. Okay. Okay. Sorry. My second question is on NAV and RMB -- if I compare this to number for against 2019 number, NAV has declined 9%, but RNAV is up, I think, about 9%. -- against 2019. Can you help us reconcile this number? What that has been developed up so significantly. And just 1 last question on net gearing, right? If I take a look at your net gearing is actually trending up. this goes against what you mentioned earlier about midterm deleveraging plans. So can you share what are the near-term goals over the next 12 months?

Okay. I'll take the gearing question, then I'll pass it to Yim Ming . So thank you, Sean. So for the gearing, as mentioned earlier, I mean, we were fortunate to have won more less sites than we expected. So 3 last year, and land is not exactly cheap in Singapore. But the good thing is that, I mean, all this gearing is on your balance sheet for a finite time, right, as you develop. I mean this gearing will start to progressively go down anyway. So we don't see that something alarming. And yes, I mean, that hotel acquisition at the end of last year, about SGD 480 million, I mean, that certainly pushed up our gearing by quite a bit around 3 percentage points. But -- but putting that aside, I mean, as you yourself mentioned, then, it is a midterm target. I know I did say that we want to get the gearing down. But ultimately, I also don't want us to be too fixed on the gearing because I think every property developer is different. Yes, they are Hong Kong property developers where gearing is in the teens or the 20s but different strokes for different folks, I suppose. And for us, I mean, our midterm target is to get the gearing down to at least around 60% -- but in the interim, right, I don't want to -- just because of gearing then, okay, let's not tender for land in Singapore. Let's not buy anything else. We'll just keep divesting I think that we'll do a great disservice to our growth strategy because no matter what, we still need to keep growing -- so -- but the gearing will come down over the next few years. That's certainly a commitment I've made -- but yes, it did actually track up. So I do understand the rationale for your question. So -- but yes, thankfully, not by a lot, and it will start to trickle down as we progress further with our capital recycling and continue to be selective about the acquisitions we make. Yim Ming, do you want to address the NAV?

You're really sharp. But the NAV for IP, I mean, if you notice, right, the NA for IP has gone out slightly, largely because of our China portfolio. So if you look at valuations wise, for our 2 China portfolios -- our China commercial properties, valuation has actually come in probably in the range of about at least 10% lower than the previous year. So they probably accounted for that. But overall, RNAV has gone up, I think, largely also because of South Beach. I mean, very frankly, that has improved our base NAV for one, and our hotels valuations actually came in also a little bit better this year versus last year. But if I can just add on the NAV, I know it's a key focus that many people look at whether this number is real. I just wanted to assure the audience that for these NAV calculations, firstly, for the IP portions, they are mostly externally valued. -- but we don't announce all the valuation reports because we're not a REIT. So they are either -- for the Singapore properties, they actually mostly external value all overseas properties are actually also excellently valued, and we use people like Cushman, et cetera. As for the hotels, after we privatize MC in 2019, we had the ability to value all the hotels. So while the hotel valuations are not the most recent, but in 2020, we did to clean about 90% of our hotel portfolio. So progressively, we just keep doing valuations. So suffice to say that I think the valuations number, we stand by it, basically supported by most external valuations. .

Congrats Joy from HSBC. Just following up on Sean's question on dividend. So given that the PATMI can be quite volatile depending on recognition and divestment -- how much would you want to keep your dividend more volatile? Or you want dividend to be a bit more stable? How should we think about the linkage to PATMI itself? Second question, just in terms of divestment targets. You singled out U.K. portfolio for potential divestment. Is there any other obvious segments that you want to sort of divest -- thank you

So on your first question, Joy. By the way, welcome. -- your first question, yes, I mean, we -- because the dividend policy is pegged to reported PATMI. So something that we will have the endeavor to try to keep it as stable as possible. Yes, last year, 2025 was a record year. So it's -- we're going to have to work very hard to try to keep the levels up. That's why I said, right? This capital recycling has part of our business as usual and it can't just be a one-off. And the good thing is that we have a sizable portfolio, and we continue to invest as well, right? As I said, the Osaka's 1 example, the hotel bespoke Shinsaibashi. I mean that was 2 years ago, and -- and now we have monetized that. So it's something that we will have to continue doing. And there are various levers we can pull to get this done. So yes, it's work in progress for us. You will see that at the end of my presentation that slide with all the nice bubbles around it, but 1 of them is recurring income, right? I mean it's also a key focus for us, and that's why the living sector has played a strong role too, albeit it's also a seed for fund management ambitions because property development is very lumpy, right, with the exception of Singapore, where it's progressive. And other than ECs, all of our overseas development revenue comes as a 1 shot at the end just like ECs, right? So this causes a lot of lumpiness in our earnings. And therefore, we do need a lot of strong recurring income to hold that up to -- and of course, we have to be careful how we invest because impairments and provisions for foreseeable losses can also take a hit on the PATMI, right? So Ultimately, it is a tough job for management. I mean, but we are committed to making this happen. And yes, in the medium term, we hope to really even out so that it's a stable and growing PATMI. . So that's one. Then the second thing is in terms of divestments, you mentioned about you mentioned about -- I mean, we mentioned about the U.K. development legacy land bank. Of course, we also mentioned about the China commercial properties that we would hope to clear off our balance sheet. And aside from that, yes, there are many other divestments in the pipeline. We don't typically share our divestments, but I can only tell you that it's across geographies and across asset classes. And it would include Singapore as well. So yes, various initiatives that we're pushing forward with. Thank you, Joy. I'm glad I wasn't in the twilight zone for that question.

Okay. I'm going to -- I'm just going to move down quickly this row first and complete this row. Dairy, then after that, Brandon and other Terrane.

Derek from DBS. I've got 2 questions. So my first question is on the relationship with the board. -- as we look to focus on 2026, your strategies, divest invest, could we assume that relationship between management and board you are like Cannavinterms of wanting to take the company forward. So I just wanted to hear your thoughts on that. And second thing is on the land banking. We've been seeing how foreign developers coming in also in Singapore. And I think while the group has been tibiting very actively. I'm just wondering whether are you sensing exuberance in the pricing in the market currently? And if any, how should we think about you adding more land in 2026 Yes. That's all

Thanks, Derek. Went straight for the nail on the head, heading in the nail on the head with that first question. Yes, relationship is a very core deal and very harmonious right now amongst management and together with the Board, I do understand the basis of your question. Last year, we did have some internal issues and of course, some kind of unsightly public disputes, but glad to say that's behind us now. And as a management and Board, I mean, we are trying to really move forward expeditiously so that we can really unlock more value from CDL at a quicker pace. So that's one. In terms of land banking, the truth is, Derek, I mean, over -- this is not the first time we are seeing -- I mean, over the years, there have been some exuberant years where you see a lot of foreign developers come into the market as well. There was I remember all these Chinese developers, [ Bank ] or they were all coming into our market to also build, right? And of course, many contractors have also now become developers themselves. So it's nothing different from what we've seen, I would say, over the last decade or 2. So we -- land tenders are always competitive, especially if it's a nice plot of land. You're never going to escape with a very low or attractive land price. I think it's always going to be competitive. So I think we have to be just disciplined in how we bid and put our best shot forward. Winning the Tanjong rule side does take some pressure off us because at least we've already got 1 land replenishment done. We will certainly take part in more land tenders this year. But of course, I also have mentioned before that I don't want us to get to the point where overly burdened by a very huge pipeline in Singapore. And should something change, be it locally, i.e., property measures, or for -- in terms of the global macroeconomic conditions, that may severely change the market dynamics and leave us so-called may leave us so-called struggling, I mean, with a larger burden than we would like. So I think we would like to just keep our land bank in prudent -- I mean we will replenish it in a prudent manner, but I think we'd like to keep it at sustainable levels that will not put undue pressure on the company. But certainly, we are glad to have on Tanjong rule, and we will continue to participate in more tenders this year.

Sorry, Sherman, since on that same topic, we have a question from Golar online. And on that same topic, she was asking about capital allocation. And therefore, since what you say that your capital allocation will largely be with the salable land banking? Or would it be other asset classes? .

Yes. Again, as the last few years, I have been the last 2 years, and it was accidental initially. But since 2024 and 2025, I've kind of given out divestment targets. You'll notice that annual divestment targets, you noticed I didn't do it today because, again, I'm waiting for -- I'd like to have this strategic review probably done, and then we'll give our proper targets then not just for divestments, but also for capital allocation for capital deployment.

Brandon?

Sherman and team. Just 3 questions. The first one, are you able to share a bit more on your hotel strategy as of now. I think we have sent you divesting a pretty decent Japan hotel very good premium then subsequently, you bought something very nice in London. So is there a particular strategy? Are you looking at probably like percentage you're going to sell a percentage of managed under maybe link in M&C and percentage you're looking to manage on the third party. Yes. That's my first question. The second question will be a bit more on the U.K. development platform. So just to confirm, right, if you were to sell the entire $800 million, will it be recognized under revenue or you would recognize sort of a divestment gain or loss below the gross profit level, Yes. That's my second question. And the third one would also be a bit on divestment -- so we have seen you divesting a very big number in FY '22 and '25 as well with MHS and South Beach. So for this year, are there any really chunky stuff there that we could see you divesting or maybe something like City Square more even like some decent hotels in U.K. or in New York -- why don't you take the

I'll do the easiest one, obviously, so for the U.K. development platform, we -- our original genesis of going in was actually for development sites. -- yes, it's part of our development property will be recorded under revenue, not under other income. .

I think on the hotel on the hotel one, we of course, we do have a review of that as well ongoing. And as you can see, it's not just noncore hotels that we're selling. Sometimes it's also getting the right offer. And if we think it's attractive enough, we do -- we are open to divesting right? So we do have 2 heads. One is a operator. And the other, of course, is the asset owner. So we do have a 2 head strategy. And I think as the operator, we ideally want to have more hotel contracts, especially in gateway city hotels. Today, we're pretty pleased with what we have in terms of where we are represented across different geographies which is very useful in terms of having such a volatility in the market, right? I mean 1 market is down usually and our market picks up this slightly as well. So we definitely want to continue that kind of diversification. But at the same time, I think where we're going is that it doesn't necessarily need to be an invested asset that we must hold ourselves. So on the operator side, I think we're also trying to get ourselves structured for more hotel management contracts and try to grow more through that route as well. So if you ask me where we can split between the internal and external one? Today, I think, of course, it's majority internal. We have a few external contracts, but albeit those are quite significant ones. We have external contracts with Granier Type Singapore, Stregas and addition. So I'm not able to give you a firm split as to how much we intend to keep in-house and external. But basically every project we look at, we do decide like is it better managed in-house. And I mean some of the considerations can be how many hotels do we already have in that city, right? So we do take all that into account before we decide whether we want to go external internal morning.

Brandon, welcome. And thank you for your kind comments as well. So just to round up, -- as mentioned earlier, I mean, I don't want to share too much about -- I can't share too much about our divestments. And typically, we don't share specific divestment targets. It's interesting. You mentioned like City Square Mall and all this. So thank you for the ideas. But we are taking a very rigorous look and have been at our entire portfolio globally, including in Singapore. So I mean we hope that the ability to surprise on the upside. After all, I don't think any of you expected us to sell South Beach last year. So now that doesn't mean you go and say, "Oh, they're going to sell Republic Plaza or something. That's not going to happen okay? But we are looking -- taking a hard look at our whole portfolio. So as I mentioned, the divestments will spread across geographies, including Singapore as well as overseas. So -- let's see what we come up with. Yes, I mean South Beach is a hard act to beat because it was a big asset. I mean -- but we are thankful and fortunate to have a diverse portfolio. .

Okay, Wilson and then after I'll go to Terence and [indiscernible].

The management as Wilson from Jefferies. Just 2 questions. The first on fund management progress, which Sherman mentioned earlier that you hope to accelerate. So just could you share any early thoughts on considerations you have in building up the fund management platform and whether you be considering new platforms, existing public private? And the second question is back to the legacy U.K. development platform, the $800 million worth of carrying value sounds like there is being prioritized to recycle as quickly as you can? Or would you say it's fair to expect like within the next 12, 24 months, this will be totally fully recycled. Thank you.

Somehow, I guess, people really want us to commit to certain targets. And once -- and the reason I'm hesitant is because once I throw something out, right? I do want to walk back from that. But okay, to address your second question first, Wilson, first of all, U.K. development platform my aim is to monetize that all of it this year, but I will say it's not easy, I mean, but that's our aim. I mean -- so let's see if we can hit our own internal targets. For the fund management side, as I mentioned earlier, I mean, it's something wished we had paid a bit more attention to it and accelerated the efforts there. As you know, the last time we tried was to inject our U.K. properties and IPO in a REIT listed in Singapore. So -- that was a big colossal effort. And when that didn't go through, I mean, I think we kind of focused on other things. But really, it's now time to monetize more of our, for instance, our living sector portfolio of $3.7 billion that I put up earlier. I have to say that it will be mostly in private platforms, private formats. I don't think the capital markets are suitable for some of the assets that we have. And for the ones that we wanted to listen in the in a public format like the 3 commercial buildings in the U.K. are now still not the right time. So I think need a while more before the office sector and the capital markets come back in favor. So probably focusing more on the private side. But we do have a lot, I mean, that we are in a lot of discussions on some of our assets. And also, as I said, in addition to this, I mean, we thankfully do have 2 public platforms under fund management. So 1 is obviously CDL Hospitality Trust. And that we are also looking at how we can be a better sponsor to the -- and the other is, of course, Irene also listed on the exchange. I mean so these 2 REITs, I mean, we are also paying a lot closer attention to see how we can work better with the REITs. .

Okay. I'm mindful of time. So I just want to have to take 2 more here, and then I got to move over to the media group. So yes, maybe Terence, you kicked off. .

Is Terence from UBS. Just in the spirit of clarity, what is the time line for midterm defines for ROE and gearing? And relatedly on ROE, I think it's good that you're guiding for PATMI growth and the dividend policy is also welcome as well. But I think the equity denominator would still grow over time by a faster pace, making it harder to grow ROE. So then is it fair for us to expect a capital reduction exercise ensure you mentioned outsized dividend? And specifically also, is that likely is there a likely consideration to be in the same time frame as we think about the first question on ROE and net gearing. . I have a last one, if I may. Residential, the margins on the consolidated projects look a bit low. -- think it's 4.7% versus 10% in the last year. The question is why? And perhaps a comment on the recognitions and margins outlook for 2026. Thank you.

So I'll address your question first, Terence. I again, because I want to wait until the proper juncture. So when our internal strategic review is completed before I really give you a time frame. But I think you would have heard me in previous and things I have thrown out ROE target, a midterm ROE target of 8%, okay? It's not easy for us to get there, as you mentioned, right, the shareholder equity component is very big. So -- but therefore, it's something that we will really need to drive our fund management at a faster pace if we aim to get there, right? I mean -- so that's 1 way of really lifting our ROE. So we do need to be more efficient -- and we -- I can't comment on like capital reduction on that at the moment, margins. You want to talk about it, Yim Ming?

Yes. Actually, for the margins, if you exclude the foreseeable losses that we made for China properties, I need to give credit, our residential margins actually improved between the 2 years. So when they calculate the 4%, I believe that has been factored in the foreseeable losses. And that's actually the main reason. So I think in terms of margins, very healthy, I would say, yes. Okay. Thank you. .

Vijay, the last time I'm going to move over to the media team. .

Vijay here from RHB. Maybe just 2 quick questions. Firstly, on Delphi Archer, there was a plan to unlock value for our strategic developments. Maybe any update on that? And my second question is in terms of Singapore residential land banking, I see you are a bit more active in terms of EC sites. Maybe can you give a bit of idea? Is it a derisking strategy and risk versus returns on EC versus private site, some color on that. Thank you. Did you

Sorry Vijay, did you say unlock strategic divestments?

No. Delphi Orchard, there was a...

Delfi Orchard I see Yes, Delphi Orchard into. .

So thank you -- so in terms of your question, the first 1 about value. That is 1 way as well is by really doing so-called our portfolio optimization. So that's the enhancement part, right, of our GET strategy. And it's really looking at our existing assets and seeing how we could really enhance and unlock the value there. So we are doing 2 redevelopments at the moment. One is, as I mentioned earlier, Newport resident -- Newport Plaza, which is the entire complex that used the Fuji Rock stars, the other is Union Square. So we will continue to drive forward with this. But at the same time, you also have to understand that I've got to keep our gearing and our cash in mind. I started all the redevelopment projects at the same time, so there's also like we could redevelop City house, we could apply for a CBD incentive scheme of 25% bonus GFA and redevelop that. We can also, as you have mentioned, we unblock Delphi. I mean -- and it wasn't a lot of money because we owned a substantial part of it. But if we amalgamated that with Claymore Connect behind Orchard Hotel, that would also become a very sizable mixed-use development. And we have already gone some steps along the SDI, the strategic development incentive scheme. But I do not want to start these projects anytime soon because they now have 4 ongoing re-development projects, right? Already the existing 2 will finish in 2028 and 2029. And then top up another tool, and I will have loss of income as well when I demolish those buildings, it will put a huge strain on the group. So I think there's something we need to pace out and I cannot do it all at once. So that's one. Sing resi, you asked about EC. Yes, EC has certainly been the flavor of the day for the last, I would say, 24 months, all developers have gone very aggressive for EC. I think because EC has always been a very attractive product that allows upgraders to eventually get into the private residential market when the EC finishes it's minimal occupation period, right, so it becomes fully private. So great and then the income ceiling was formally lifted, as you know, from 14,000 to 16,000 and there's been talk about potentially lifting it further. So ECs have really been a very attractive way for upgraders to enter the private market and and it's been in high demand, which hence has driven very aggressive bidding in the last 2 years now. So we have -- we do participate in EC sites as well, and we have been fortunate to win EC sites along the way, including 2 last year. But that doesn't mean that's all we look at. I mean as I said, Tanjong rum, I mean, it was a nice win for us, and that's near Kaland all that. I mean it's a great area to be in. So that's not easy. So I think we will continue to look at sites that are well located and that have locational attributes that we feel will be very attractive to buyers. .

Okay. I'm going to quickly move over to the other side of the room. I see Dexter. Dexter why dont you take the question from the meeting?

Dex from Limburg news. 2 parts. First part this question on the U.K. and China. I know you took markdown there as well. Can I clarify if you guys are playing by opto sell both the U.K. and China assets, how much discounting are you expecting if you all really want to sell? Because as you mentioned, the capital markets in very soft in those 2 parts. The second one, you mentioned before you wanted to U.K. REIT, and I think you mentioned that just now as well. So is the plan on the shelf for now? And -- in terms of private funds, are you talking about setting out a private fund within CEO? And the third one, in terms of strategic of your core businesses,

Firstly, in terms of our divestment I mean, we will go through meticulously right into our portfolio, especially for our noncore and underperforming assets. across all asset classes, right? I mean, be it residential, commercial or hospitality, and we will divest assets that make sense. You all remember in 2024, I think we divested a hotel in broader Colorado, right? I was not even Denver is broader and people -- I'm not sure how many people hotel and border. And then we divested for about and at a gain of about SGD 80 million, right? So -- so it's things like that, right? I mean we look at it fairly. And in some cases, we try to always divest above, obviously, our book value, okay? -- but it may not always be possible. So the flip side is looking at if you keep holding on to the asset, right, how much are you emerging in terms of the cash? I mean, is it loss making? How much debt is on the asset the U.K. development portfolio that the legacy portfolio are put up. I mean that was -- before we sold ransom sales was around SGD 1 billion at the height of the interest rate environment in the U.K. I mean, we're paying 6% interest a year on that whole portfolio -- so that's a lot of waste of money. That's $60 million a year. So I think we ransoms, we divested and evincis going to probably punch me once I say this, but that was at a slight loss. It was about GBP 10 million, I think. So -- but you know what, I mean, you take the good and the bad, right? I'm removing quite a bit of debt off my balance sheet as well. So as we go forward, we assess each asset on the individual basis. Same with China right now is really bad time. You've seen other developers that have exposed to China as well. If you -- I mean, we are still confident in our residential sites, especially our Sinn, right? -- that should do very, very well, exceptionally well. But yes, commercial is uninvestable right now in China. So is going to be challenging for us to divest these. We may have to take some haircuts on it. But the head count is too big. I mean, the good thing about our group is that we do have some holding power as well. I mean, as I've always said to you all before, I don't want to divest just for the sake of meeting divestment targets that are committed to, right, and leaving lots of money on the table. I mean, that is a poorer outcome for CDL if I do that. . Secondly, on private funds, you're asking whether the funds would be within CDL? Well, when I say private funds, I'm referring to starting a private equity fund that would third-party capital. CDL may be part of that capital stack, maybe an investor as well, an LP in the fund, but it would be a small one. I mean, we would not exceed like 10% or 20% of the fund. I mean we may have to put our money where our office, right, if we're going to start a fund. But it will be largely external funds that we would hope to attract because that's true monetization of assets, right? If I sell the asset in the fund, and I'm 80% of the fund, then what am I doing, right? So that is my intention for the fund management side, private funds. Strategic view does it include management? Thank you for trying to work me out of a job. I appreciate that Dexter. So -- but I hope it doesn't include management. I mean, if it does, then I'll accept whatever conclusions it comes to, but it does not include reviewing the Board or management. I mean, this is really focused on our strategy. focused on our guidance, focus on our portfolio and asset base. I mean -- so things that really matter the CDL. Yes, I understand Board and management, important to CD as well. But that is up to the shareholders to decide. So.

Quickly to around 2 things then. Obviously, you said last year was a year of reflection. Looking at the U.K. portfolio, what do you think went wrong there in the first place? And secondly, can I ask since the Chairman does have strategic -- edition for the company. What do you think of the review? And do you have a vision of what the strategy would look like. .

Sorry, on your first question, you asked me what went wrong, where --

The U.K.

The U.K. portfolio, high interest rates...

The U.K. portfolio as in the legacy land bank. So I think back then, I mean, it was before my time as well. So it's understandable that that we wanted to get into U.K. developed market, but we had to get an external manager because we did have a team on the ground. So I understand. I think some of the things that went wrong some of the sites were potentially at above market values. So as you know, it always starts with getting a good land price, right? If your land price is wrong, it's quite difficult to catch up subsequently. It's quite challenging to catch up. And so that's 1 of them. And secondly, I think some of them the development manager underestimated the complexity of development permits as well, which is why the whole process has been so lengthy and drawn up -- so I would say those are some of the lessons learned as well for CDL as well. So going forward, obviously, now we have our own U.K. development team. So if we do undertake developments at least, we have our own team on top of it, although team is not involved in that because that 1 is exclusively under the development of a third-party manager. So again, it's things like that we work towards resolving and unlocking the value there or at least unlocking the capital there. so that we can put it to a better use. I as I said, again, I mean I can pass the mic to our esteemed Chairman to answer, but I really don't think it's necessary because at this stage, not of us can comment much on the strategic review, right? In fact, I probably already said more than actually I said today. So if you want to ask him what does he think of the process that he like it or not like it. I mean I don't know how he's going to answer that considering we are not supposed to comment on it because it's going to be a very comprehensive review. But as I've answered your question earlier, suffice to see, right? I mean Board and management are not under the review. So let us know if you like us to be under the review as well. I'll put that out for consideration. If you don't think we're doing a good job. So

Okay, moving quite a long because I know that some of you have to go to the RADARS launch in a short while. So let me just move down to anybody in the friends from the media that is over on this side. If there's any questions pertaining to that? No. Then I had 1 also from Golar from the Edge online, which has to do with City Plaza. I'm not sure if Mr. Sherman will want to comment like like what are the chances of that? And active sales mandate, what is the expected proceeds from the Board denials if it does happen. .

Actually, it's attractive side. I think the -- we are very sparse shareholder in the complex. So they managed to get 80% is some ground. I believe there will be some interest from the potential investors, and I wish him for luck. Thank you. .

So just to clarify, we do have about 16 units on -- is there no there is a funding question. Okay. I'll just give this to the last 1 on the .

Yes. This -- can you give us a hint of what's the current value for U.K. office portfolio at this point in time? The reason why I ask is, if you add up the $800 million the U.K. land bank, Moxi to be sold to CDL HT $475 million. Your PRS, $3.7 billion. That's a relo to $5 billion. So can we say we have in excess of $5 billion to be sold over the next 3 to 5 years. .

Very, very astute and very good, Martin. As I said, again, we won't comment on the targets. Anor, we confirm what you just mentioned, but you're certainly very steel analyst.evening. .

So carrying value of the 3 properties that we have right now is about GBP 870 million. .

So it's GBP 870 million. So that's approaching EUR 6 billion. .

Okay. I'm going to scan the room for more time. Is there any more funding questions on the room, the floor. If there's not, then is there any other comments from the panelists at this -- he will bring this briefing to a close. So thank you very much, everyone, for coming. There's also refreshments being served outside. And for those that are joining us on webcast, thank you very much for taking your time this morning, and we hope to see all of you soon, very soon again. Thank you very much, and have a good year ahead. .