Clean Harbors, Inc. ($CLH)

Great. Well, good afternoon, everybody. I'm Jerry Revich once again, and I'm thrilled to have with us the senior management team from Clean Harbors. Immediately to my left, we have Eric Dugas, Chief Financial Officer; Carol Larson, EVP, Sales Management; and Jim Buckley, SVP, Investor Relations. As you might have noticed, I said those 2 names in reverse order based on who's sitting on the stage. Eric, Carol, Jim, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. So we're going to run the conversation in a fireside chat format. As a starting point, Eric, looking at Clean Harbors over the past 5 years, the earnings growth has been really outstanding, 19% CAGR -- what went right over that time frame to enable that level of really strong profitable growth.

Yes. Kind of a great introductory question there, Jerry. I want to thank everybody for kind of joining us today and learning more about the company. But when you look over the last years, really strong performance. And I'd say there's been a couple of catalysts to be able to deliver that type of growth at the earnings level. I guess the first I would say is we are continuing each and every day to think about how we can drive more volumes into our -- and so when you think about Clean Harbors, you think about a company that handles for the most part, hazardous waste, everything short of nuclear. We have over 100 physical sites with hard to replicate permits where we handle that waste. And so 1 of the things we're constantly trying to do is increase volumes and bring more waste into the system. When we do that, we're able to really leverage the network and drive business performance and margins and the earnings power that you've talked about. So a couple of things, developing new lines of business. I think some regulatory changes that we've had on the retail side of things has really helped us grow that business line. When you think about our core verticals, Jerry, with chemical and manufacturing, those numbers from a macro perspective, and I'm sure we'll get into some more recent data, but those lines have been fairly flattish over the last couple of years, but we've still been able to grow through that -- through increased volumes pricing strategies is something we spend a lot of time on and Carol is instrumental with that in the sales team. So driving good pricing power continuing to integrate. And the vertical integration, I think, is something that sets Clean Harbors apart from many of our competitors in that we can start with customers, we can be on site, helping them test and handle their waste -- we can then transport that waste to our disposal sites and ultimately dispose of it. So really, I'd say it's volume growth. its margin expansion through pricing. And then although 2025 was a little bit slower on the acquisition front, a long history, continue to grow acquisitively as well as organically.

Can we unpack Eric, the point on retail and the changes there that have been helpful typically harvest?

Yes. When you think about retail, you oftentimes don't think about hazardous waste. And so there were some interesting regulatory changes started in California and really kind of have grown across the retail space, but took some -- put some regulations on the types of things that you fertilizers and things like that, that often are in the retail space that can't just go into the dumpster and be handled through kind of the traditional solid waste means. They actually have to be handled. So when you think about retailers in the growing retail space. And you think about some of those large retailers out there, those are significant customers of ours today. A lot of the returns, a lot of e-waste, things of that nature. -- that we're handling, that's kind of new to the Clean Harbor space. But again, bringing those incremental volumes into an already established leverageable network is really helping us grow in an area that, again, people probably don't think traditional hazardous waste.

Very interesting. What proportion of revenue is that I'm assuming this is technical services based on the way you're describing it?

It's still, Jerry, a relatively small piece of the business, about 3% to 4%, I think, is our recent figure on the retail waste. But really growing. I think there's also some other areas we're starting to get into health care waste a little bit, and that's a growing area where we're seeing volumes grow. But I'm hoping that in addition to these growth areas, I think more recently, we've seen some better large-scale economic indicators around ISM and things and maybe some of the chemical space picking up as well here that should be very value accretive to Clean Harbors.

And then you folks have been able to achieve really strong price ahead of cost over this 5-year time period. Looking forward over the next 5 years, if we're in this room today, and we've got another 5 years of 90% earnings CAGR, what would have to go right to get there? Can you drive margins, another step change higher from here?

Yes. I guess I'd answer that question first, but a few years ago, we put out a Vision 2027 road map. And kind of in that road map, we had our margins in our Environmental Services segment reaching roughly 26% by fiscal '27. Well, I'm happy to report that we reached that in 2025. And so we've hit that goal. To continue to drive those margins, we're going to continue to do a lot of the things that we've done. I've mentioned volumes a couple of times and continuing to sell more services to fill out our platform in all over 100 disposal sites. Jerry, you mentioned pricing. When I think about pricing and our pricing strategy and the trajectory we've been on, I think about -- many of the things that we've implemented over the last 5 or 6 years from a strategic perspective, so really looking at our entire customer base, looking at the services we provide them across our 50 lines of business looking at their current margins and quartiling those things and then really equipping our sales and operational folks with a strategy to kind of push pricing and get the value that we deserve for the important services that we deliver through pricing. We balance pricing across our LOBs and make sure we're thinking about the total customer value long term and pricing accordingly. But volumes, pricing, vertical integration, continuing to bring as much transportation labor into our business and use our own internal people rather than going external for some of those things. And just speaking to the labor force for a moment, our ability to retain our folks here. Our retention rate with our employees is at a near all-time high here. And that's something really important to us to keep our own employees -- it increases safety, it increases production and efficiencies and leads into that margin. So current goals we're trying to get that environmental services space to a 30% margin. Our current forecast has us at about 27% there. We'll finish this year, but hoping to move beyond that, hit that 30% target and then reset from there.

30 by 30?

Could be 30 by 30, Yes. Those are great ESPN flex as well, but that could be a monitor.

And in terms of the part of the business where you're seeing margin expansion, looking back, really, even over a long time frame, you folks have done a great job getting Industrial Services margins higher. Is the next leg of margin upside for ES, primarily from Technical Services? Or can you continue to drive industrial and field services margins higher?

I think it's going to come from kind of all 4 components of environmental services. So our tech services our Safety-Kleen branch has been a great story. Field services where we've been able to raise margins probably from the mid-teens to kind of the low to mid-20% range. And then industrial, I think we're beginning to see some cyclical signs of that business picking up. I think in the last few years as that business has slowed down a little bit. We've done a lot of self-help items, labor management being one, cross-training employees being another across the industrial space. And that's an area that I think as that business picks up and revenues come back, we should be able to see more margin. But going back to kind of tech services, Jerry, in the Safety-Kleen branch business, we're going to continue to, I think, see some great margin growth there. I think the demand remains strong. I think there's a lot of things that we're doing internally to drive margins. And then I think with a lot of the tailwinds we have, and I'm sure we'll get into some of those, but between improved manufacturing numbers, PFAS opportunities and things of that nature, more volumes into that network is going to drive margins.

And it sounds like you're seeing in the business, the benefits from higher manufacturing numbers based on that common air?

Yes. I think we're beginning to. I mean I think SP-2 Early days. Early days, we saw the ISM figures come out last week and the week before, I think fourth or fifth month in a row where you saw kind of being an expansion mode. That certainly has not been the case over the last 4 or 5 years. So the way we view it is we performed quite strong over the last 4 or 5 years in kind of in a space that's been a little bit of a gray area. And now you're starting to see some green shoots come up in our business and really excited about how we can perform in the earnings power that this business has in an environment with some expansion to it.

Very interesting. And then you also mentioned things are looking better in Industrial Services specifically. So last quarter, we were commensurating that when margins were low for refiners. They weren't spending any money. Now markets are too high for them to spend money and take downtime. Are they starting to take unplanned downtime? Or are they -- are we doing more work?

Yes, Jay, we have not -- in our forecast for 2026, we did not build in kind of an improving market in this area in the back half. I think we're beginning to see signs of perhaps some pickup later this year, maybe into next. One of the reasons I feel that way and some of the intel we're getting from the business is a little bit of what past history has shown. And you kind of alluded a little bit to the Goldilock syndrome that can exist in the industrial space, where I think leading into 2026 here in the last few years, we've seen kind of that refinery space and chemical space, which are the largest verticals in Industrial Services business really be kind of in a cost-cutting mode and looking for areas to reduce spend. And in some cases, that means less maintenance and smaller turnarounds, maybe some more pitstop turnarounds rather than doing a full turnaround. In past cycles, we've seen that type of behavior and -- a lot of times, that leads into a period like I think we're seeing now where with crack spreads being where they are, refineries, in particular, kind of manufacturing and producing all out. And I'd say the latest cycle you saw that is kind of when the world turned back on, after COVID, we are in a period where these plants were running all out. And then they get to a point where, hey, they can't skip the maintenance. They need to do the certain levels of maintenance and turnaround activity that is required for these multimillion dollar plants. And you saw in the last cycle, kind of the 2022 time frame, you saw kind of the revenue industrial services revenue expand. And so we're looking at that potential and thinking that, that history will repeat itself there. And so when you compare the period we're now to a period from 4 years ago, we're expecting and ultimately here, that business to turn around those revenues to return the timing. Is it later this year, early next year? Time will tell on that. But certainly, you don't want to run these plants to a point where you see production issues or disruptions or safety event. And you really got to get in there and clean up those units appropriately.

And have we seen that start to happen? Onesies, twosies or any green shoots or no?

No, I think it's a little too early to tell. I think what those folks are focused on right now, they've kind of been in cost-cutting mode at this very moment, they are focused on production. And like I said, especially the refineries. But ultimately, they got to do the work. They get to do the maitenance work that's required.

I mean some of them are running to upset you've seen there's been more refinery fires, -- there's even been some chemical plant fires over the last 6 months because they're just running their plants hard. And as Eros saying, for a good reason now versus before, as you mentioned, it was as a cost cutting. And now they've got money and they're making money and so they don't want to bring it down.

They are making too much money.

But then sometimes the plant says, I've got to come down.

And when they do, it's...

A much shorter cycle. So they're being very -- as Eric alluded to pit stop, that's what he's indicating is that over the last year, the duration of a turnaround is reduced by about 33%. And then even over 2 years, it's about 50%. So it's much more intentional, I would say. But the good news for us, too, is if you are there doing the turnaround, you either come to the table with all of the things that may happen as they go into the turnaround, but then also looking to minimize the number of vendors has been a big area of focus, too. So how do you do more of the work while you're on site?

And so it sounds like other parts of industrial services are getting better, the non refining part it sounds like it's improving.

Yes. And I want to just maybe add to, I mean, what we've been talking about here is our Industrial Services business. When you think about kind of industrial waste in totality, these refineries or these chemical plants are now running at a higher level and not wanting to stop to do the turnaround, it means more waste is being produced, and we handle that waste kind of on our tech services side of the house. So when you talk about green shoots, Jerry and seeing some pickup in manufacturing and industrial activity, which is good for us. It's really good on the tech services side when these plants do turn around and need to do there -- I should say, when they do turn around to do their turnarounds, we'll see that on the industrial side, so -- but the overall industrial landscape, again, I'll go back to kind of the ISM readings and things like that, starting to see some green shoots, and it would be nice to see a period of expansion kind of hold on here. that, among many other tailwinds to the business, I think are a good thing for Clean Harbors.

Super. And Carol, right before this meeting, we had the Republic team in here and they were complementary of your team's pricing algorithm and what you folks have been able to do. Can you -- just share with us the clean harbors approach to pricing that's been really a big part of the margin improvement during...

[indiscernible] alluded to it. It's certainly pricing with discipline, pricing with intent, regularity, looking across the business and looking into each of the customers, the industry, the response, the competitiveness -- and what we can do as an organization to expand and cross-sell all lines of business. So we want to look at it from both sides of the house and really partner with our customers, but certainly have the rigor around periodic annualized price increases with rigor.

So you get the customers used to a rhythm of annual price increases that that's a key part of the operations.

It is an understanding of the value, right? So the value proposition in any pricing conversation is critical and key to understand the difference between us and somebody else and what we bring to the table. And that goes on throughout the year.

And then when demand drops down, it sounds like you folks did a nice job of pivoting last year. Can you talk about how you folks operate it. And I'm referring to when the overall activity levels slowed around maybe 2Q, 3Q last year, for the industry, it sounds like you folks managed it reasonably well based on your results and what I'm hearing from peers?

Yes. So you think about the various businesses the demands of what we have and how many services we perform throughout the year. And so certainly, there's going to be ebbs and flows and how you continue to look at the available opportunities in the marketplace. And so we certainly leaned into that.

Yes. I think, Jerry, the ability for Clean Harbors to pivot when 1 vertical may be a little bit slower is 1 of the strengths of the company. When you think about our 50 LOBs and in the more than 300,000 customers that we provide service to it. I think what you're alluding to is as we saw kind of chemical volumes maybe kind of flattish, we were able to turn on other things like health care, like retail. Our field services organization. If you think about that business and the acquisition that we did with Hepico a few years ago, really kind of nearly doubling the size of field service -- this business, field services business, where about half of those revenues are kind of routine tank cleanings and regular services and about 50% is responding, emergency response to certain events that happen. You can have an event that's a few hundred thousand dollars you can have an event that's tens of millions. But our ability to continue to grow that business, our ability to open new branches, our ability to build continued relationships with many of the customers that we handle from a tech services or safety clean ramp side and get into their emergency response plans so that we can respond when something bad happens, we can fill in the gaps with that business. And there's been some large events that we've responded to over the last year that has kind of helped fill in the gap. So at Clean Harbors, we -- a few years ago, if I was up here, we would talk about kind of an 8-cylinder engine. And our goal is to make sure at least 6 or 7 of those are operating at all times, and that really carries the wind in our sales. Now a larger business, $6 billion of revenue, 25,000 people. We talk about it as a 12 piston or 12-cylinder engine. We believe that kind of 10 or 11 of those are operating right now, and we can pivot from pistons -- and that's why we've been able to deliver great growth over the last 5 years even in difficult times and continue to see great margin expansion. And that's really what we want to focus on is continuing to grow revenue top line and get more dollars to the bottom line through the margin.

Super. Eric, you touched on the Safety-Kleen branch business. And so Jim and I had a conversation about that about a quarter ago. Could you just talk about how you folks have been able to drive margins higher by driving higher route density and it sounds like you folks feel like there's room to drive that higher. Can we just talk about 1 where the margins are now, how far they've come what's driven just for a truck-based business that have the type of margins that we're about to talk about in a minute is just really impressive. So would love to unpack that.

Yes, sure. So I'll start maybe just by stepping back in a few sentences about the business, Jerry. And I'd like to start there because I think it is a part of our business that's a little bit underappreciated sometimes when you think about what we've been able to do in that business. And I'd start off by saying that the last 3, 4, 5 years, we've seen this business grow at a consistent kind of 7% plus top line growth rate. How are we doing that? Think about all the small and medium-sized businesses out there that produce some level of hazardous waste, they got to get rid of that. And so our Safety-Kleen branch business has become very much a subscription-based model, where we're going out on a regular basis to these businesses, and we are collecting their containerized waste often in 55-gallon drums. We are providing them with parts washer services, we are doing back services. And it's really kind of a one-stop shop where we can do a lot of things. It's nondiscretionary spend in a lot of cases, and it's a relatively small piece of the overall spend but it's very, very important services. Complementary to that, we've done a great job on the Safety-Kleen branch side of holding on to our drivers. The drivers are kind of the heartbeat of the business. They're in box trucks and things alike. And they're going out and making 5 or 6 or 7 stops a day. Through the last 5 or 6 years, holding on to those people, those people will be more efficient, they're more efficient with how they do their jobs. They get to know the customers and they're able to cross-sell -- and we've also introduced incentive programs that provide these drivers with an opportunity during their day to do some sales prospecting to stop, to introduce themselves to maybe pick up another drum of waste. And when you can get that 1 incremental drum or 2 incremental drums or an additional service on that same route with the same driver and the same truck, all that revenue is going to drop straight to the bottom line, except for maybe a little of that incentive cookie that we're going to give the driver. So those types of things holding on to our people, expanding that platform. That's what's driven that Safety-Kleen branch business to 7% almost every quarter, every year growth rate. And then when you think about the volume pulling in there in each additional drum, we're looking at margins in that business. Overall, Environmental Services, I mentioned earlier, 26%. These margins are in the 30% plus neighborhood and more volume into that leverageable network, feeding the beast. We believe that we can continue to grow this business. I think in some cases -- in many cases, we're taking market share as well as continue to build this business in certain geographies and kind of leverage some of our footprint in the TS space and bring SK trucks into that area as well. So just really a great business very accretive from a cash flow perspective as well and really good kind of pricing power with these customers as long as we're providing great service and they know their drivers and they know we're going to show up, we can consistently price them at inflation or above.

And the safety claim branches really feed so much of the network. Only about 30% of the drums they collect are for incineration. So it's going to landfills. It's going assailant recycling, it's going to wastewater. And as we do these smart acquisitions like the TERRANOVA 1 we recently did that add solidification permits and water discharge permits and you lay that into our network, the returns are terrific, and it's why that growing monster from the Safety-Kleen branch that just keeps feeding everything. It's so important to us. But when we get in meetings with you folks, it's typically, let's talk about incinerators, let's talk about the spread business with this, and everyone kind of overlooks the beauty of the Safety-Kleen branch business.

Well, because it's tough to imagine the truck-based business instead of making 10% margins, making over 30% margins. It was 10% margins 5 years ago, was it not somewhere in that range. How long have you been operating at this level of performance?

I mean on the Safety-Kleen branch side, we've always had -- they haven't been 10% margins. They were healthier than that. But certainly, each and every year, we're expanding margins kind of in that 50, 60 basis point area across Safety-Kleen branch and just a really highly accretive business. again, through volume growth, taking market share, continuing to deliver great service and then pricing accordingly.

So what's the moat because if you're making 30% margins and you've got 2.5 capital turns. Obviously, you're gaining share. So clearly, the motor is there. Help us understand that a little bit more.

Yes. When you talk about moat and the business has a very strong moat. Incinerators is Jim just mentioned a lot of times you talk about the incinerators, there's a moat there. But when you think about -- again, we are picking up hazardous waste even on the Safety-Kleen branch side. That Safety-Kleen branch side, you have to have special permits to be able to handle that waste. And that's where the moat is to be able to collect that hazardous waste, bring it to 1 of our TSDFs. These are kind of stops along the way to ultimate disposal where we can store hazardous waste. We can repackage, we do some treating there. We try to pull some things out that we can recycle -- but having those permits, which are very difficult to obtain, greenfielding permits like that is very difficult. That kind of creates the moat that is utilized kind of across that waste collection business. And so again, incinerator is probably the biggest moat. But the collection being able to store and treat hazardous waste along the way before it gets to its end disposal is almost just as valuable.

And just for my reference, where would margins have been 5 years ago with 25% instead of 30%? Or was it?

You think about this margin 5 years ago, probably in the mid- to high 20%. And then over the last 5 years, kind of increasing margins in this space, 600, 700 points in the Safety-Kleen branch -- but I'd like to take kind of a step back and again look at the Environmental Services segment in totality, so tech services. Safety-Kleen branch that we've just spent in the last few minutes speaking about field services and industrial services. If you look at that as a combined Environmental Services segment, and you go back in time, Jerry, I'll go way back, you look at 9 years ago. We've expanded margins, again, last year, landing at about 26% we've expanded margins over the last 9 years by 850 basis points. We've expanded margins in that business over the last 5, about 460 basis points. And so just a really good story by continuing to gain traction with volumes, price strategically and really vertically integrate all aspects of those businesses.

Now before we talk about the incineration business, the M&A part of the Clean Harbor story has been really additive. You folks have generally bought assets 11x EBITDA, post synergies, 8x EBITDA and increased densification -- what's the pipeline look like from here? How much runway do you have to do continued runway? And then the lack of activity in '25, Just talk about was that issue of not enough companies coming to market or other moving pieces?

Yes, great question. I'd start off with the pipeline for acquisitions kind of in our core space, we believe, is -- remains quite strong. Even recently, we're seeing a lot of opportunities come our way, viewing a lot of books kind of on a weekly basis. We've gotten 2 acquisitions kind of over the goal line. in 2026. They fit nicely kind of into our tech services and field services space. So I think there's still quite a runway. Both with tuck-ins of the size of the recent acquisitions and larger. I think there's plenty of things kind of in our in our core space. If I look back to 2025, Jerry, still, I think the pipeline quite busy last year. We were very active, looked at a lot of things. They were just -- some of the things we looked at, got to a point where -- when we look at acquisitions, they need to fit strategically, operationally, culturally and financially. And I think some of the opportunities last year from a financial standpoint, a little higher than we would like and probably couldn't check that box. But we pivoted. We introduced some organic projects. We -- from a capital allocation perspective, we allocated more to share repurchases, returned value to shareholders that way. But framing back to the acquisitions. I think if you look back at the 45-year history of the company, acquisitive growth has been a real engine for us. and I think it will continue to be in the future. And I think there's plenty of things that we can do kind of in our core win link.

And in terms of -- in 2025, just the timing of assets coming to market maybe you didn't like or were you close on deals. Can you give us any...

We are definitely close on deals. As I said, I think for 1 reason or another kind of got down the end, and we're outbid by the winter I think 1 of the things -- 1 of the core tenets of Clean Harbors is we're going to be really responsible with our capital. We're going to look at returns. We're going to be strict at certain levels and stay within those levels that we need them are appropriate based on the assets we're getting. And I think I'm pretty proud of the team for and strength to kind of get to a point and say, okay, we're not going to go above this. And that's what we saw in 2025. But the static about the 2 that we've done this year again. And I think, again, if you look at Terranova, great acquisition kind of based in the Carolinas, brings more volume into our network. And like I said, I think there's more opportunities to kind of bring things into that core space going forward.

And just should gears to talk about incinerators. So Kimble, you folks have laid out progress that's tracking pretty close to plan. As you folks have brought that online, to what extent has that driven additional conversations for you folks with other customers that might be reaching the decision of invest or outsource on their incinerators. Is there a potential that we're sitting here a year from now and we're talking about Kimball 2.0?

Yes, I think what you're probably alluding to, Jerry, is just another tailwind we think that we see in the business in terms of captive incineration. And there's companies out there that have captive incinerators. These are incinerators where they can burn their waste -- and there's been a movement to close some of these. And I think you're referring to the possibility that more of these will close and send their waste streams to Clean Harbors few years ago, 3M was a company that did that with their captive incinerator and we were the beneficiary of those waste streams. I'd say that's still a tailwind for us. It's still an opportunity as we move forward. We still have discussions and many of the captive operators are customers of ours today. They send us their waste streams that they can't handle on their captives or when they're in turnaround and -- and so I think the possibility is real here. I know it's real that over time, I think you'll continue to have these examples of those waste streams moving into the commercial space. As I said, we keep active contact. We have a gentleman that's in charge of keeping that relationship going. We talk about in discussions with those captives about how we can save them operating costs. We can save them capital expenditures. We can handle some of the more complex waste streams that are coming out of some of those factories and manufacturing sites. So I think it's definitely a tailwind. The timing is what's a little bit of a question mark. But between captives, between kind of reshoring, near shoring, between kind of improved economic environment overall, PFAS, which we really haven't talked about, but that opportunity also kind of picking up steam and growing at rates that are exceeding our expectations coming into the year. All those things will cause us to consider in the future, hey, another new incinerator or increasing throughput through some of our current kilns. So really an exciting time, lots of tailwinds. And I'd say that when the time is right, we will strongly entertain kind of another facility.

And any scenario where you folks could step in and take over a captive incinerator -- or are these just 2 old assets that are too inefficient for the most part?

Yes, it gets tricky. I think the 2 biggest concerns are the technology, and there's some upgrade, but also a lot of these captives are -- they're on site. They're in the middle of production area, if you will. And certainly, if we kind of took 1 over, we'd want to commercialize it. So it turns into a permit modification and also -- but just the ability to get in and out of these sites with customer waste makes it a little tricky.

And can we double-click on PFAS tracking ahead of expectations? Will please say more?

Yes. I'd love to turn it over to Carol as Head of Sales, but I will say kind of the expectations around PFAS are kind of growing by the day internally, and we're really excited about it.

Yes. So I would say with our total PFAS solution, so we have an end-to-end solution. That, coupled with our recent publication of disposal recommendations has garnered a lot of interest and response from customers out there. from both an inquiry, though, as well as action. And so when you think about in today's environment, emergency response, there are emergency responses that we are part of. UPS recently being 1 of them, the plane that goes down. We are on site and AFFF is released to put out the flame. And therefore, we are in a PFAS situation where people will immediately need to respond to that. So there are those types of opportunities, but also as we think about water filtration and remediation, where we're seeing a lot of progress and movement right now. There's just plethora of momentum. And if you listen to the experts, a TAM of potentially $100 billion to $300 billion, which is a large market. It's just really a matter of mobilizing folks to act today and to just continue to have those conversations. So I would say the pipeline is extraordinarily strong, and we are really excited about our unique position to have an end-to-end solution. PFAS is being driven by regulation, litigation and even public relations. So it's hard to go more than a few days without reading about forever chemicals in the news.

And what's the revenue contribution this year, expectations for next year?

So when we came into the year thinking that building upon the $120 million that we had in PFAS revenue in 2025, we got 20% growth rate. would be appropriate. As we sit here kind of through Q1 and halfway through Q2, I think we're seeing more opportunity than we had anticipated. And I would expect the growth rate around PFAS to be to be greater than. I think to Jim's point, you're just seeing a lot of people and a lot of companies when there's a PFAS hit, they want to deal with it right away. So I think we're excited near term with some of the opportunities that are coming our way, but also long term, just huge opportunity for Clean Harbors. And we're in the catbird seat when you think about that total PFAS solution and everything we have in place today.

And the $120 million, what's the mix of that within incinerators versus collection versus emergency response, what roughly?

Yes, I'd say roughly 1/3 of that is probably filtration -- maybe a little bit more 1/3 of that is kind of ER response and maybe the rest of it is, as releases happen. I think early days on incineration, I think many of us believe in we believe that, that will be the best long-term solution, certainly for high concentrations of PFAS. So I think that incineration outlook will be something that grows over time. It's great that incineration has been recognized as 1 of the most effective ways to get rid of the PFAS.

Super. Thank you. Please join me in thanking Eric, Carol and Jim for coming out. Appreciate your time today. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.