Clean Science and Technology Limited (CLEAN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Q3 FY '24 Earnings Conference Call of Clean Science and Technology Limited. We have with us on the call Mr. Siddharth Sikchi, Executive Director and Promoter; Mr. Sanjay Parnerkar, CFO; and Mr. Pratik Bora, Vice President. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Siddharth Sikchi for opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you so much. So good afternoon to all of you. First of all, my sincere apologies to making you all come on the con-call on a Saturday afternoon. However, I'm very happy to connect with all of you again to discuss the performance of our company for quarter 3 FY '24. Business environment. We witnessed progressive recovery during this quarter across volumes compared to the last quarter. Low demand globally along with incremental capacities which came up over the last couple of years, especially in China, is putting downward pressure on price realization. On the financial highlights. On a Q-o-Q basis, we recorded 8% growth in sales and growth is primarily volume-led with realization being steady. We are pleased to report that during this quarter, guaiacol sales increased by 50%, led by volume growth. With pickup in volumes, contribution from principal products increased to 78% during this quarter compared to 73% during the last quarter. EBITDA increased by 14% to INR 86 crores during this quarter, while EBITDA margin expanded to 45% as against 42.5% during the last quarter. Better product mix and benefit of operating leverage led by higher revenue base compared to last quarter resulted in 20% growth impact to INR 62 crores as against INR 52 crores during the last quarter. We are also extremely pleased to report that Board has reported an interim dividend of INR 2 per share. On Q-o-Q basis, sales declined by 18%. Decline is majority realization led with lower realization, contributing 13% to decline and volume degrowth has been up to 5%. Sales profile is more diversified compared to last year with contribution from principal products being 78% during the quarter as against 85% during the same quarter last year. EBITDA degrew by 20% on a year-on-year basis from INR 108 crores to INR 86 crores during this quarter. However, led by better profitability across newer products and lower consumption prices, the EBITDA margin continues to be robust at 45% during this quarter compared to 46% same quarter last year. It is relevant to note that here EBITDA margin continues to be strong despite diversified sales profile and lower sales base. Sales profile. The revenue contribution from Performance Chemicals, Pharma and Agro Intermediates and FMCG were 67%, 19% and 13%, respectively. Performance segment was most impacted with realization-led decline in sales across MEHQ and BHA. Pharma segment growth was led by DCC. This improvement was volume-led. And FMCG segment witnessed realization-led decline in sales. The new HALS Series continued to demonstrate sequential uptick on a quarter-on-quarter basis with volume-led increase in revenue by 10%. A little bit on CapEx update. We have incurred a CapEx of INR 225 crores during the first 9 months of FY '24, including investment in subsidiary of INR 215 crores. Total investment in CFCL during this quarter was INR 60 crores, thereby total equity infusion into CFCL till date is INR 335 crores. We are on track to commercialize the capacity for pharma intermediates by Q3 of FY '25. On ESG, we are pleased to announce that we have published our maiden sustainability report and would be happy to have your view on the same. We are in process of installing rooftop solar plant of 1.5 megawatts at our new facility. This will moderate our carbon footprint and also rationalize the power bill. So all in all, to summarize the business performance, earnings scale is impacted during current slowdown. Further earnings profile has diversified with meaningful revenue coming in from new products, yet earnings quality, that is EBITDA margins continue to be upbeat at 45%. We reiterate that innovative technology and strong process engineering skills would enable the company to endure volatile times in resilient manner. Thank you so much.

Operator, you may open the call for Q&A.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Sanjesh Jain from ICICI Securities.

I got a few of them. First, on your opening remarks you said that there has been a lot of capacities which have come in China and put a pressure on pricing. Where we look at the performance, it really doesn't look on that. Is it that these pressures have come in post this December or it is an ongoing process even in previous quarter and few quarters behind also you have seen that?

No, Sanjesh, it is a very generalized statement because we have seen capacities of, say, diphenols, which has come up over the last few quarters in China. And even in our pharma intermediaries we see Chinese had raised up capacities. So there has been a stiff competition. And I think it is a very common phenomenon in all chemical segments at the moment.

Okay. Anything in the particularly for MEHQ/BHA, which are our principal product. Are we seeing activity on that side as well?

Not at the moment in the current technology. But of course, because they have hydroquinone-based processes. So -- but as of now, there is no real threat in MEHQ and BHA for us.

And second, Siddharth, I can appreciate the percentage margin which are very healthy. But it is also a factor that there is a significant fall in the realization, which make percentage margins slightly less reliable. How is the unit margin for us? Are they also back to that pre-COVID level which we were doing or how are they for MEHQ and BHA?

On percentage-wise, yes, we are on pre-COVID levels. But of course, the absolute numbers are lower because the prices have fallen significantly, right, because of the current scenario.

Got it. My next is on the HALS. 770 and 701 now that we have started commercial production and supply side, what are the initial response, customer addition, which category, domestic versus international. Can you give a little bit more color on that?

Yes. For the 701, it also goes in water treatment. We have approved by some big multinationals in Europe. We have started exporting the product to China. I mean, that's again a thing because China has been supplying 4HT to the world. So we've got our -- sent some material to China. We have sold something to Korea. And we are also now in the process to discuss with some customers in Europe and North America. For 770, yes, we are approved with a lot of customers in India. And of course, we have also started talking to global customers. You would have started seeing, we have started shipping to Europe, to Middle East, and domestically, our acceptance is increasing, and we see that this is a great support to us. And as the new series will start, starting February-March, that will be a real support because the customers are looking for a basket rather than a single or 2 products.

Fair enough. You touched upon my next question, actually. Where are we in the portfolio? We previously spoke that we are looking at some 10 products within the HALS basket. Are the products completely prepared in the pilot stage and it's just that this new plant when it starts we are good to go? Where are we in those products...

Yes, yes. So now the plant is going to start. So we'll -- so phase-wise, in every 15, 20 days -- so the capacity is installed for all the products. But of course, it would not be sensible to start every day -- everything at day 1. So we are going to start, say 1 product, say, day 1, let it stabilize for 2, 3 weeks, then start the second one, stabilize it, then start the third one. So even my people have to get trained because these are absolutely new products and processes, which we have -- I mean, doing at Clean Science. But the capacities are all installed. The INR 335 crores is installed and the plants are now about to begin.

So say, by another 2 quarters, we should be ready with all the 10 products commercially getting shipped. Is that a fair assumption?

I would not know exactly the 10 products, but yes the major HALS which we have mentioned, they will all be in pipeline. And we would have already started selling, sampling and everything will happen.

Great. Last question on the utilization side...

And again, Sanjesh, if you would appreciate that despite of the current business environment, despite of our venturing into the HALS first time in India, our timelines which we had mentioned all along that the plants will start in December, January, I think we are quite there even despite the biggest CapEx in the history of the organization and being a greenfield project.

No, no, I clearly appreciate that, Siddharth. It's a phenomenal execution; timeline, product, and margins are really impressive in this tough environment and no credit from that perspective. It's been a phenomenal execution. Just looking at the HALS pickup, I just wanted to understand how are you looking utilization in FY '25 and '26 from these new plants?

I think it's a future statement.

I think -- just an hope. I'm not...

So typically when we install a capacity, see, the general thumb rule in our mind is the capacity utilization should happen, say, up to 80%, 85% in 3 years' time. So 30, 30, 30 sorts. This is a basic thumb rule we expect.

That's roughly an assumption?

And anything faster is a bonus to us.

Perfect. Siddharth, any more update on the pharma side? We have announced 1 product previously and we said that we have an ambition to put up the CapEx of INR 200 crores. Any more update on that side?

So the pharma intermediate plant, the construction has begun. We hope to start commercialization by September-October. So that is ongoing. That is one. And there is another -- some few projects which are in pipeline, which are at pilot scale, and which we are very hopeful that in the next few weeks we will take a decision on the CapEx for those things. So there are 2 major products, which we are working on, and those in total can take up our CapEx of INR 200 crores, INR 100 crores each.

Got it. So we are on the pipeline. We are on that -- on the route map for that as well, right?

Absolute, absolutely.

The next question is from the line of Ankur Periwal from Axis Capital.

So first question, you started off saying that globally pressure on realization still continues. And especially China, the demand has slowed down there. But if I look at the quarter-on-quarter numbers, there has been improvement in China sales per se. Any specific product which is driving this? Or how should one look at it?

First of all, your voice is not clear, Ankur. Hello?

I'm sorry, sir. It seems like the current questioner has dropped from the queue. The next question is from the line of Arun Prasath from Avendus Spark.

Siddharth, my first question is on the -- once again on the China. Generally, we get the commentary that Chinese volumes and exposure once again back. And -- but in our portfolio, that's the exposure to Chinese kind of halved, what used to be around 40%, 45% is now way lower than that. Is it the result of the Chinese capacities coming up there? Or do we plan to get back those volumes? A little bit of commentary on this will be helpful.

So, Arun, the sales to China or the percentage exported to China, that going down has nothing to do with any of the capacities or anything coming up in China. It's overall slowdown in the revenue, which is -- and some change in the product mix also with the highest capacity coming up, with the new products coming up, the domestic sales exposure has gone up.

Okay. So our volumes in China remains absolutely the same level, not -- maybe [indiscernible] from '21 levels, it has remained the same?

No, it has lowered a little bit because of the lower demand in China.

So the point we're trying to make is, we are not getting replaced. We are not losing market share in any of the customers -- I mean, with any of the customers.

And also, we have derisked -- I mean, with the new product portfolio, we have derisked ourselves from the exposure we had against -- I mean when we were selling into the China market.

Is the HALS contribution so high that, that has kind of derisked already? Or is it you're talking about the other products other than say, MEHQ and BHA?

No. So there are -- even the HALS, but even the pharma intermediates, they are now -- the Indian markets are opening up for those products as well, right? Hence, even if you see the revenues, which were predominantly from the flagship products has come down in terms of percentage. So earlier where they were contributing 85%, now are roughly close to 75%, 76%. So that 7%, 8% has been the Indian sales or the domestic sales.

So what I understand is, as far as our portfolio is concerned, especially with MEHQ and all, the Chinese production is yet to ramp up and hence our volume is not yet there. But once China gets back, especially on this front, are we confident of getting back those volumes? Or it will be kind of a tough competition with these captive producers there -- local producers there?

So hopefully we hope that the economies will recover. We hope that things will again come to normalcy. And again, the demand should come up. This destocking as, I think, has hopefully come to an end, and that is why you can see our Q3 numbers -- I mean, quarter-on-quarter, our numbers have started improving. So it is not a firm answer, but I can -- I think, hopefully, the economy should move towards recovery.

That's right. But what I'm trying to understand here is our cost advantage over the Chinese because of the different process, is it still intact? Do you think -- or the new capacities are also -- are likely to bridge the gap?

Not at the moment. Advantage is still intact. Hence, that is why the EBITDA percentage remains the same, right?

But the new capacities are also on the -- will be -- we'll have -- over that also will have advantage that's what you're saying, right? New Chinese capacities.

We're not talking about new capacities of MEHQ at the moment.

All right. Okay. Second on HALS, the price level has obviously been way lower than what used to be there. Is this the newer normal because of our entry into the ecosystem? Or is it again because of the lower demand at the end category level?

So typically, whenever there is a new entrant, I mean we have seen this across all the products when we started. I mean the existing players -- I mean, the only point of advantage they have is -- I mean, they lower the price to make our entry difficult in new accounts. It is a very natural phenomena, and I think we are used to this. So we had expected, of course, the prices have dropped more than our expectation. But we are in the game, and we will complete and we'll fight it as we have done all along.

No doubt on that. But the question is, earlier we attributed the price drop to the demand cut down, are we seeing the demand bounce back on HALS side?

See, over the last year, whatever the demand has been during entire '23, it was a subdued year. So I think '24 should be a slightly better year.

The next question is from the line of Ankur Periwal from Axis Capital.

Sorry, the line got dropped. I hope I'm audible now?

Clear.

Great. Okay, so first question on China as a market. You did mention realization led pressure and consumption over there has also been slower. Yet Q-on-Q, our revenue from China has gone up. Any specific comment, any product which has clicked there?

In general, we are seeing a little demand picking up. But of course, I mean we would have liked the little higher price as always. And -- but I think with the lower and subdued demand, we are restricting ourselves to increase the price because we don't want to spoil the customer or I mean disappoint the customer when he's returning after a few quarters by asking him a price increase.

Sure. And correct me if I'm wrong. The pricing over here is more spot. There is no longer-term contractual pricing that we enter into for the international sales.

In China, yes, in particular, it is a quarter or a monthly price. Very rarely, people talk of a longer price. And I mean, it's a trend whenever in falling markets, nobody wants to make a long-term contract. In rising market, people all want to meet long-term contracts. It is very simple.

Sure. And the other markets, Europe and U.S. as well over there, the process is still shorter than contract?

Yes. But again, Europe is a little slower than we had expected. North America, South America is decent.

Sure. Secondly, on the product growth per se -- the segmented growth per se. Performance Chemicals has seen Q-on-Q improvement, which is a good, healthy sign. Pharma, you mentioned is largely volume-driven and FMCG decline is because of realization. Any specific product to highlight here, the new product contribution ramping up, which is hitting there in performance?

So Q-o-Q wise, actually MEHQ, there has been a good growth.

Apart from that, I mean, the other products also, the new products which came in, they have also contributed in.

Okay. Sure. And thirdly, on the HALS side, you did mention a decent uptake in terms of both 770 and 701. Any time lines you would like to share for the newer products? And the -- secondly, from an overall market size, while we are seeing realization-led decline or absolute shrinkage in demand for many of the products, is there any change or some dynamics changing in HALS per se across the products?

Ankur, please repeat, sorry.

Sorry. Okay, so 2 parts of the question. HALS, is the way we are seeing realization-led decline in other products, are we seeing the same decline in HALS range of products or the overall market size of the segment getting decline? And secondly, how are we looking at the time line for our products?

See, I'll tell you, the point is, Ankur, that we are just a very new start-up in HALS, right? Even if there is a little demand subdued, we are anyways not looking to get a big market share. Even out of the entire capacity installed, we are only looking to start commercialization, say, 25%, 30%. So even in subdued markets have a problem, but it is not that it is so low that we will not be able to sell 25% of our installed capacities.

The next question is from the line of Jason Soans from IDBI Capital.

Just wanted an update on the -- so the inventory destocking scenario right now, you mentioned last quarter that a lot of the inventory is in excess. Just wanted an update on the destocking scenario. Right now, how do you see it across the various economies?

So honestly speaking, I particularly feel that, I mean, we have been seeing destocking over the last entire year. And I think -- I mean, according to me, 1 year was a good time line for all the destocking to happen. So I think now -- I mean, maybe 1 or 2 particular accounts, I'm not sure. But in general, I think the destocking phenomena is now behind us. But only what is stopping us is the consumption. I think the demand or the consumption has to increase for the volumes to come back to normalcy. But the destocking phenomena is behind us now, for sure. And hence, you can see gradual increase in revenues over the past few quarters for us.

Sure. And sir, I just wanted to also understand that -- I mean, of course, you have mentioned that there is no localized competition coming in from China, and we are not seeing any local threat right now. But just wanted to know, I mean, I understand that we have an absolute wonderful process in terms of MEHQ and BHA, which gives us a very productive throughput from -- and so that's the only process advantage, is the only thing which stops the Chinese from coming into our domain? I mean, could it be a very basic question to ask, but just wanted to ask you this.

I also believe the same thing what you said.

Okay. Sure, sir. And sir, I just wanted to know, I mean, you did speak about the contribution from the principal products decreasing from 85% to 76% currently. So the new products are adding in more. So you're basically diversifying basically. So are you saying -- I just wanted to understand the interpretation of that. Are the pharma and agro intermediates that contribution is increasing? Or is there any other new products which are contributing? I just wanted some more color on what these new products are, which are leading to this diversification?

New products are like TBHQ, the new products are the HALS, the new pharma intermediate is DCC. So these were at nascent stage, say, few quarters before. Now we have got approval. These volumes are increasing. So these will start -- these have started increasing -- I mean, the revenues have started increasing due to these new products. And hence, the percentage is changing. And plus, as the new HALS capacities now start, the percentage of the flagship product will further start reducing. So it's good for a company that we are not dependent on just few products.

Sure. And sir, lastly, just wanted to understand if you could give me -- in your 3 segments, if a volume and realization breakup, if you could give me if it's possible, across Performance Chemicals, Agro Intermediates, and FMCG chemicals?

Not possible, sir.

Okay. And then overall, if possible, any broad number?

Overall, what? The EBITDA margin is with you, the numbers are with you.

No, no. I'm saying in terms of volume and realization, so that -- in terms of sales.

Actually, these segments are so complex each product has different realization, it is too complex for us also to calculate.

Yes, because 18% of the revenue decline year-on-year, so just wondered if a ballpark is possible.

So 13% is realization-led and 5% is volume-led.

13% is realization-led and 5% is volume.

The next question is from the line of Abhijit Akella from Kotak Securities.

Just on HALS, Siddharth, last quarter you said sort of intimated us at 40, 50 tonnes a month is what we are doing. So sort of just wanted to get an update if that's still the run rate we are at or has there been some further improvement? And by the end of fiscal '25, are we still sort of looking at 200 tonnes a month? Is that the target?

No, I think last quarter, yes, you were around the similar numbers. But I think going forward we are aiming to increase that quite a bit.

Yes. So I believe last quarter what you said was 200 tonnes by March 2025 -- 200 tonnes a month by March '25. So can you sort of work with that target now as well?

I think so. I think so we should stick to that target.

Okay. Great. And just with regard to the margin profile or ROCE profile on HALS, given the pricing pressure that you've been witnessing. During the course of FY '25, should we sort of expect some pressure on the overall blended margins as the products ramp up from there?

Yes, yes, definitely because we are newcomers, the yields and efficiencies are not the best, plants are not utilized. So of course, there will be realization on margins.

So I mean, roughly compared to this 45% you've seen this quarter, is there a broad number we could work with for next year for the overall company [Technical Difficulty]?

Abhijit, I mean, this question we can take probably next quarter because there are couple of new products, right, I mean, in the HALS Series, which will be coming in the subsidiary company. So then we'll be able to give a better view on the margins for the new products, which will be coming up. They'll be launched for the first time.

First time in India as well.

The next question is from the line of Krishan Parwani from JM Financial.

Just 1 from my side. I mean, could you just break down the total CapEx for '25 and '26 as in project-wise, if possible? I think you mentioned that there are 2 CapExes, INR 100 crores each. And then in the last call you said about INR 30 crores for 1 pharma intermediates. So what other projects are there in pipeline? So yes, that are 2 part of the question. That's it.

So first, I'll answer the second part. I think at the moment, we have this INR 230-crore lineup. The rest, we will come as it goes. The pharma intermediate is on -- going to happen by September. So this CapEx is committed. The first INR 100 crores, I think we should start -- I mean, if everything goes well, we should start somewhere in April or May the first round of CapEx, I mean, of course, it will take -- it will happen during the course of 11 months. And for the next one, I think probably it will start by August or September.

So in a way, if we see this, let's say, INR 230 crores it's happening in '25. Any ballpark number you have for, let's say, the overall '25, around INR 300 crores or something like that?

No, no, no. Not like that.

The next question is from the line of [ Jay Jariwala ], Individual Investor.

So my first question is like the margins were around -- in between 40% to 50% over and around. So is there any chance of margin expansion after the CapEx?

No, not possible.

Okay. And around INR 100 crores -- INR 108 crore profit was there near the December 2022. So is there any timeline where we can expect to cross that?

So actually, yes, that was the best quarter, I mean, till date. [indiscernible] 2, 3 quarters more where we...

Easily.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Jay ], who is an individual investor.

Sir, in last con-call 1 question was there regarding P-BQ and you said that you had a color problem -- some specific customer had a color problem, and you are working with it. So can you give any update for that? Is the matter sought out and you are supplying...

I have still the same answer like last quarter. We are still working on it.

Okay. And sir, my second question is regarding guaiacol. You said that 50% increase in sales this quarter, that is great. So can you just give the idea that from the -- your peak guaiacol sales, currently where we stand?

Sorry, go again?

Currently where we stand as a guaiacol sales compared to our peak guaiacol sales?

I mean, the market -- see, the basic problem that happened because of those issues where there were death of children in South -- in Africa area, and there was a tight scrutiny on Indian producers of Guaifenesin, which, of course, use guaiacol as a raw material, plus our markets like Iran and Egypt had some currency issues. So all those factors resulted in lower revenues of guaiacol. But I think over the quarter we have seen those issues getting resolved. And hence, the customers have come back and the demand is again looking upward, and that is how we could achieve this additional revenues of guaiacol.

That's great. Sir, my question is from earlier before this issue, our sales was suppose 100 tonnes then currently where we stand. So still we are how much behind our peak sales in guaiacol?

Now we have come back to similar levels. But we are still holding some stocks, right? So we will have to work on selling those as well.

Okay. Great. Sir, my last question is regarding this MEHQ. Recently, we have done the CapEx and increase our plant utilization. So now what is the capacity utilization in particularly MEHQ?

Closer to 60%, 65%.

The next question is from the line of [ Rajasekar MS ], who is an individual investor.

I just want to know what is your total investment on Clean Fino-Chem, and when is the capacity coming up?

Sorry. Can you repeat your question?

What is your total investment in Clean Fino-Chem? And when is the -- when are the capacities coming up there?

Yes. Clean Science has totally infused INR 335 crores till date in Clean Fino-Chem, and the commercialization is accepted during this month.

During this month. And you are also doing a lot of investments. Your peak turnover has been about INR 935 crores in 2023. With all these investments coming up, what is your increase in turnover you were expecting? Are you able -- will we be able to double the turnover with these investments?

Yes, that's the endeavor.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Sunny ], who is an individual investor.

Sir, I have a question on the pharma intermediates, the current ones as well as the proposed ones. I just want to know, are these supplied to the domestic market or are they supplied to the export market? And secondly, are these much more generic products or also it includes patented products? And lastly, is there a contract like -- I mean, is it a long-term contract or it's like a short contracts these pharma intermediates?

Okay. So the first part, majority of the pharma product sales comes from the domestic market. Second, these are -- so we are a key starting material supplier. So there's no patent or generic aspect to it. And sorry, what was your third question?

Regarding the contract sizes. I mean, is it a long-term contract or...

No, there are no long-term contracts here.

Quarter contracts.

Quarter contracts like, yes, 3 months contact.

[Operator Instructions] The next follow-up question is from the line of Jason Soans from IDBI Capital.

Sir, just wanted some bit of clarification. So 1 time I had interaction long back, I mean, we had envisaged the CapEx of -- this is coming from an earlier question as well for a breakup. So we had envisaged an investment of around INR 180 crores in FY '24 in Clean Fino-Chem, which is in Unit 4, and INR 200 crores for the new products, which I remember. So could you just bifurcate the CapEx once again for us, please? I mean, what is pertaining to HALS and what is for the new products?

Because it's a greenfield project [indiscernible] includes everything, including the boundary wall, including the security cabin as well, okay? But the newer CapEx will only be dedicated to the plant. Only the production blocks. Now I don't need to build another security. I don't need to build another boundary wall. So future CapEx, when we say, INR 100 crores is typically only for that production block, and maybe 2 things here and there. So when you say INR 335 crores, it doesn't mean that it is entirely going to HALS because we are also creating the common infrastructure.

Okay. Sure, sir. So just to again get my understanding correct, the pharma intermediates, which you said the CapEx will -- I mean, the facility will go on stream in September, October 2024, as you mentioned, and then you'll be commercializing 1 block of CapEx of INR 100 crores starting in April this year and one in August, is that right?

Provided my pilot trials are successful.

Yes, yes. Provided everything goes as per plan, then this is the plan, right?

Absolutely, sir.

As there are no questions from the participants, I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Siddharth Sikchi for closing comments.

Thank you so much. I think we finished the call in 45 minutes. I think Saturday works for us as well now. So I would like to thank again all of you for taking time out, and that's all from my side. Thank you so much.

On behalf of Clean Science and Technology Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.