CoinShares PLC (CS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Thank you for standing by, and welcome to the CoinShares Q1 Earnings Broadcast. [Operator Instructions] Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to your host, Jerry Lee Brown. Thank you.

Thank you, operator. I would like to welcome you all to the CoinShares 2025 Q1 Earnings Call and Webcast. Speaking from management today will be Jean-Marie Mognetti, Chief Executive Officer; and Richard Nash, Chief Financial Officer. All those joining today are encouraged to log into the live event where you'll be able to view the accompanying presentation during today's call. Alternatively, the results and a copy of the presentation are available to download from the Investor Relations section of the CoinShares website. A replay of the webcast will be available for 30 days following the live call and a transcript will be posted on the company's website as soon as it is available. Following the presentation, we will host a short Q&A via the webcast platform. Should you wish to submit a question to the management team, please provide your name and company affiliation. We will do our best to get to as many as we can within the allotted time. Lastly, our safe harbor statement. CoinShares would like to remind everyone that except for historical information contained herein, statements made on today's call and webcast that would constitute forward-looking statements are based on currently available information. The company assumes no responsibility to update such forward-looking statements, and I would like to point you to the risk factors associated with our business, which are detailed in our prospectus. At this time, I will turn the call over to Jean-Marie.

Good afternoon, and thank you for joining our Q1 2025 earnings call. This is our 18th earnings call since we listed the company in March 2021. From the very first one where we had no analyst question. Today, we have kept adjusting. After the last earnings call, we had a follow-up discussion with one of our long-time analysts in the U.S. who suggested that we continue to adjust by removing repetition in the main earnings call and leaving more space for a non-res discussion/Q&A at the end. This is our first attempt at doing so, and we will continue to improve. As usual, constructive feedback are always welcome. Before we dive into the financial results of Richard, I'd like to take a moment to address the broader economic context in which we are operating as a scaling company. What we are witnessing today is not mere market volatility. It is a wholesale transformation of the global economic dynamics. We are experiencing a shift from one epoch to another, and this is not just computational science language. Indeed, it requires us to challenge our very own approaches and strategies. Several structural undercurrents are accelerating. Global fragmentation is deepening with a flavor of merchantism. De-dollarization is on the agenda. Sovereign debt, keep raising. And monetary expansion continues. The Federal Reserve now more than ever, faces a trilemma: Manage inflation, sustain growth and maintain market confidence. One will need to decide what comes first. Perhaps most telling is the U.S. dollar decoupling from treasury yields, a historic warning sign that reflects growing skepticism over institutional stability. In this environment, superficial narratives are being stripped away. Only fundamentals enter, which is good news for CoinShares. It's no coincidence that capital is flowing back to gold, pushing it to record highs, but gold is no longer alone in this space. A new store of value has emerged, purpose-built for the digital age, Bitcoin. Finite, decentralized and incorruptible by design, Bitcoin is increasingly regarded as a systemic hedge. It's growing independence from risk assets, evidenced in the recent correlation from the NASDAQ 100 marked a crucial turning point. Today, Bitcoin's annual inflation rate is lower than gold, reinforcing its position as a superior store of value amid widespread monetary debatement. At CoinShares, we fully grasp the magnitude of this shift. As pioneers in digital assets, we are not simply adapting. We are actively shaping this transformation. Our responsibility to our clients remain clear to inform, to guide and to provide access to the next frontier of capital markets. The market signals speak plainly. Bitcoin volatility has dropped during Q1 to record lows. Its price remained well above previous cycle highs and institutional interest continue to grow rapidly. As an illustration, CoinShares welcomed in Q4 2024 its very first pension fund client. Bitcoin is evolving and is evolving into a strategic resource in the current economic landscape. Seller recent accumulation of 538,000 Bitcoin and the launch of 21 Capital, a $3.6 billion joint venture between Cantor, Fitzgerald and Tether, Bitfinex and SoftBank signal a race for absolute scarcity, echoing deeply with previous [indiscernible] theory. Like nations once upon a time competing for gold, land and other mineral resources, institutions are now competing for Bitcoin, generating what we might call synthetic halvings that further constrain supply. This is not speculation. It is a strategy which will reshape geopolitical equilibrium. CoinShares is built for that moment. Our platform offer institutional grade access. Our research anticipates rather than react. Our resilience has been tested and proven across market cycles. We remain disciplined, forward-looking and resolutely committed to empowering investors in this new paradigm we foresaw 10 years ago. So keeping it short and so just one last point on Investor Relations before I let Richard comment on our financial or maybe 3 points on Investor Relations. Since our listing in March 2021 in Stockholm, CoinShares has affirmed repeatedly our clear and consistent strategic ambition to secure a listing on the U.S. exchange and expand our strategic presence in the largest market for digital asset companies. This ambition is becoming increasingly attainable as the U.S. regulatory environment continues to evolve positively. In parallel, we are actively advancing initiatives to enhance liquidity in our shares, which increased in 2024 by 3.3x. This includes expanding analyst coverage and intensifying institutional engagement through targeted non-deal roadshows. These actions are aimed not only at raising CoinShares profile among investors, but also at improving our average daily trading volume, an essential metric for potential inclusion in passive index funds, further extending our global reach and market visibility. To that point, there are already some positive signs with passive ETF issuer like Fidelity, Blackrock, Dimensional or Invesco disclosing, albeit still small, but yet exposure to our stock. On a second note, the first quarterly tranche of the 2024 dividend was distributed on the 6th of May, reaffirming our commitment to shareholder value in all market conditions. And finally, before turning to our Q1 performance in detail, I would like to highlight that effective January 1, 2025, the group has adopted the U.S. dollar as its functional and presentation currency, replacing the British pound. This transition reflects the increasing role of U.S. dollar-denominated transaction in our operations and financing activities. It also improves the comparability and clarity of our financial reporting for our global investor base. Now on this technical note or let's call it, accounting note, it is a perfect time to hand over to Richard Nash, our CFO, to walk through our quarterly results. Richard, over to you.

Thanks very much, Jean-Marie. So let me begin this quarter just by highlighting a few important changes that we made to our financials. So firstly, as already mentioned by Jean-Marie, as of the 1st of January 2025, we transitioned both our presentation and functional currency from GBP to USD. This move better reflects the group's increasingly U.S.-focused operating environment and our growing exposure to U.S.-denominated transactions. All prior period data has been restated accordingly in both this presentation and in the Q1 report. Next, we are now presenting any gains and losses on the group's treasury positions on a stand-alone basis. Now previously, these were included within the Capital Markets business unit. But given the growing size of the position and the resultant unrealized gains and losses that we're seeing on a regular basis, we've removed these from the Capital Markets P&L so as to not distort its performance over any given period. And finally, moving into 2025, we've also amended the way in which we are allocating costs across the business units, which has resulted in a higher proportion of our group costs manifesting within either asset management or capital markets. This has been done to better reflect the resourcing requirements of these business units while simultaneously providing a more accurate view for management around the cost that the group incurs for its corporate activities and the maintenance of its listing. So now on to the numbers. We started 2025 facing the most significant quarterly decline in digital asset prices since Q2 2022. Despite this, we delivered a solid and stable Q1 performance, which speaks to the resilience and diversification of our business model. Revenue being our asset management fees for the quarter came in at $29.6 million, up from $24.5 million in Q1 last year. Gains and other income within capital markets totaled $11.9 million versus $14.1 million in Q1 last year. The movement we see on principal investments is negative $1.5 million, but like our treasury loss of $3 million, which we can now see at the bottom of the table, this has shown a good recovery post quarter end. From a cost perspective, we remain controlled and steady. While the composition has changed, which I will come to when we look at asset management and capital markets in more detail, we have seen a small reduction in admin expenses and largely static direct costs. So with all of the above taken into account, EBITDA for the quarter landed at $29.8 million with margins holding steady at 75%. And our net profit came in at $23.8 million, giving us an earnings per share of approximately $0.36 per share. So now let's take a closer look at the asset management platform, starting with XBT Provider. So for XBT Provider for Q1, we generated $22.7 million in management fees with our net outflows slowing to $154 million, which is a marked improvement from the prior quarter's outflow of $370 million. While the AUM for the product ended down circa 27% from year-end, we are still at levels notably higher than Q1 2024, hence, the improved year-on-year performance. It's also noted that the unique holder base in XBT Provider remains solid, and we remain committed to expanding in our core Nordic markets where we see ongoing opportunities. CoinShares Physical had another excellent quarter at $5.6 million in fees. While the platform is obviously impacted by the price action in the same way as XBT, we've seen excellent flows from the start of the year, which have ensured the health of the top line and further cementing its importance for the group. Therefore, while CoinShares Physical AUM declined 10.2% to $2.06 billion in the quarter, that decline was driven by price, not sentiment. Just to contextualize what is meant here by excellent flows. The CoinShares Physical platform led the European crypto ETP space in Q1, bringing in $269 million in net inflows. That's 3x more than our nearest competitor. Our flagship BITC product alone brought in $202 million, twice as much as the runner up. A key point to note here is we are now in a position where the level of inflow we're seeing in CS Physical is now surpassing the outflows that we're seeing in XBT. And now one of the core goals of CS Physical on its establishment was to ensure that it was able to evolve to a point where it was more than offsetting any outflows seen on our legacy product. We hope with our continued efforts that this trend will continue throughout the remainder of 2025. We believe the strong BITC flows we saw were definitely aided by a strategic fee reduction in mid-January, dropping them from 0.35% to 0.25%, reinforcing its competitiveness in Europe and aligning it with our spot BTC ETF in the U.S. Moving into the remainder of 2025, we believe that our recently announced collaboration with BoursoBank, which will expand access to our physical ETPs to over 7 million new potential investors in France, will play a very interesting role in the ongoing dissemination of our physical products in Europe, which already comprise 27% of our asset management fees, and that's a figure that continues to grow proportionately quarter-on-quarter. Our U.S. platform delivered $0.7 million in fees, and we saw approximately $288 million in net outflows, most of which came from the spot BTC ETF. Outflows in the U.S. market were fairly broad-based with the NASDAQ down 10% and the S&P 500 down over 4%. Despite that, our U.S. platform remains a strong mix of retail and intermediary investors, and we remain committed to building this franchise. The Block index generated $0.6 million in fees. And while the index declined approximately 13%, similar to Bitcoin's move, it actually outperformed many of its peer indices, which dropped by an average of 30%. And AUM for the index at the quarter end was $712 million, down from $821 million. So bringing all of the above together, we generated $29.6 million in management fees this quarter, up from $24.5 million for Q1 2024. Our gross margin declined slightly to 89%, following a reallocation of certain marketing costs around key partnership agreements into direct costs, something we did moving into 2025. So this margin decline here is being driven by a change in allocation rather than actual additional costs. Admin expenses have also shown a notable increase. But as stated at the outset of this presentation and also clarified within the report released earlier today, this is following an amendment to our cost allocation process rather than due to additional expenditure, hence, the fact overall admin expenses for the group are actually down year-on-year. Just a couple of final thoughts on asset management prior to moving on to capital markets. So the total group AUM ended the quarter at $5.23 billion. And while this is down from $6.91 billion at the year-end, this reduction is driven by price action rather than flow. The percentage of AUM represented by XBT provider continues to decrease. It's now at 54%, down from roughly 62% a year ago, and this speaks to the ongoing diversification of our platform. And finally, just as a reminder, the flows for our core ETP product suites and those of our competitors are published in our weekly digital funds flow reports available on our website. And also the level of AUM held within each of XBT provider and CoinShares Physical is disclosed and subject to daily attestation by LedgerLens, an independent firm solution embedded into our website designed to provide additional transparency and comfort to all of our stakeholders. And now on to capital markets. So just to reiterate again one of the changes to our financials highlighted earlier. Gains and losses associated with the group's BTC and ETH Treasury holdings have now been separated from Capital Markets results and are being reported independently moving into 2025. This decision ensures that Capital Markets top line performance accurately reflects the underlying operational activities of the business unit without distortion from market-driven treasury revaluations. Therefore, these movements are excluded from the figures we see now, but obviously remain clearly highlighted at the group level view. So the group's Capital Markets business unit delivered solid performance in Q1 2025, generating total income and gains of $11.9 million. This result was achieved against the backdrop of declining digital asset prices, which obviously impacted market activity across the industry. The key contributors to Q1 2025 were as follows. So first, we have ETH staking. This remained the principal driver of capital markets income, generating $5.6 million during the quarter, matching the strong contribution seen in Q4 2024. Taking continues to provide a reliable recurring source of top line income for the business despite the price reduction that we saw in ETH over Q1. Liquidity provisioning income amounted to $1.9 million for the quarter. This represents a decline compared to Q1 2024, driven by reduced gross flows on the XBT provider platform. As noted earlier, we had minimal net outflow in the quarter. Such a decrease is consistent with historical patterns during periods of digital asset price declines and trading and redemption volumes are subdued. Delta Neutral Trading Strategies delivered strong results, generating $3.6 million during Q1 2025. Increased volatility within digital asset markets during the quarter created attractive opportunities for the trading team, which successfully leveraged these conditions to deliver solid gains. In digital asset lending, which is formerly reported as fixed income activities, we generated $2.4 million in income. While the lending framework remained robust and risk focused, the total amounts lent in feat terms declined as a result of falling digital asset prices and certain counterparties returned assets following a reduction in demand. The direct costs associated with capital markets decreased during Q1 2025, benefiting from a reversal in the expected credit loss provision for digital asset lending activities following the decline in overall lending volumes just mentioned. Admin expenses increased during the quarter, reflecting the increased allocation of central group costs to the business unit. As stated earlier, this reallocation is done to more accurately represent the time and resource consumed by Capital Markets and supports better transparency across business unit profitability. So in conclusion for Capital Markets, the business unit continues to demonstrate resilience through a diversified range of revenue-generating activities, maintaining strong operational performance even during periods of lower digital asset prices. The group remains focused on driving further expansion within capital markets as market conditions evolve. So now we can take a quick look at the quarterly performance in context at the EBITDA level versus prior periods. And we can see from this graph that we've achieved a result that's largely comparable to Q1 2024 with the exception of the performance on principal investments. We saw some fairly significant principal investment gains due to the market activity in Q1 2024. We had a quarter where the prices increased, whereas in Q1 2025, as previously mentioned, the prices went down. So principal investments aside, if you look at the combined top line totals of asset management and capital markets, which is the core of our business, they're circa EUR 40 million in both 2024 and 2025 opening quarters. Yes, asset prices are higher, but price moves for the quarters on a stand-alone basis couldn't be more different, significant rise in 2024 and significant decline in 2025. Now keeping in mind the price recovery we've seen in digital assets post quarter end, the ongoing diversification of our products within asset management and activities within capital markets, we're confident that Q1 2025 represents a very solid foundation on which to build out the remainder of the financial year. We delivered stable profits, maintained solid margins and continue to grow our presence across key markets. We believe we are now well positioned to benefit from renewed momentum with a clear focus on product expansion, geographic growth and operational scalability. So let's just close with a quick recap before we move on to the questions. So from a financial perspective, we posted solid revenue gains and other income across our core business units. We maintained stability in our cost base, and we've protected healthy margins, resulting in EBITDA of $29.8 million during the quarter that saw price declines not seen since Q2 2022. While this has impacted our unrealized losses on treasury digital assets, this doesn't cause concern for us given our belief in the industry within which we exist. And this is a point that's already been proven post quarter end with the price action over the recent weeks. From an operational perspective, our CS Physical product suite is showing dominance in Europe and more than offset negative impact on AUM from XBT outflows in Q1. We have successfully executed our transition at the group level to USD, which represents another key step forward following the amendment to our digital asset accounting approach implemented in Q3 2024. And finally, the collaboration we have with BoursoBank and our growing treasury position both set us up for an exciting rest of year, albeit for very different reasons. And just to end, as I always do, just remind everyone that further detail on everything we've covered above is included within the report that we released earlier today. We encourage you to go and take a look. Okay. And with that, I can now hand back to Jeri.

Thanks very much, Richard. We've got a number of questions in today, so we'll try and move through those as quickly as we can. The first one come from Redeye. The first question is to you, Jean-Marie. How much of the CoinShares Physical inflows are from existing market versus new geographies?

Thanks, Jeri. I think the best way to answer that is to remind that our European market is really focused on European customer that our European product are distributed throughout Europe. And that from a legacy perspective, our density of investors is spread between, I would say, Stockholm and Milan with a strong concentration on DCH.

Thank you very much. Another one for you from Redeye. There is obviously a lot of speculation in the U.S. market regarding crypto. What can you do to capitalize on this besides from listing there?

Yes, it goes beyond just speculation and noise Coinbase entered the S&P 500 as of last night was what that is announced. So crypto is getting recognition at last. I think listing in the U.S. is a very strong commitment of ours for a very, very long time now that was one of the very first statements we make in March 2021 when we listed for the very first on NASDAQ, Stockholm saying it was a milestone on our journey to the U.S. And it seems like the U.S. is more and more attainable now with the SEC being a bit more open-minded and at least more crypto friendly. So we will keep that in mind and hope we can deliver and execute on that mission.

Thank you very much. Over to you, Richard, one from Redeye. The staking income has held up well despite falling Ethereum prices failing staking yields -- sorry, falling staking yields and falling Ethereum AUM within the XBT product. How has this been achieved?

Thanks, Jeri. The staking has held up reasonably well, but...

[indiscernible].

Sorry, I think we had a little bit of feedback there. The staking income, it has declined, but it has also held up well. I think we had around approximately $7.3 million of staking income in Q4 2024. That declined approximately 20% to $5.6 million in Q1. And obviously ETH has gone down all over the course of Q1, but that's a gradual decline. So while the end of the quarter, we had low prices, I think if you look at the average over the course of the quarter, the ETH staking income that we received and the decline on $7.3 million from Q4 is largely the price movement.

And Richard, what do you think we should expect from staking going forward?

Largely more the same on Ethereum. It will be a function of the yield and the level of our Ethereum they're willing to take and also, of course, the price of Ethereum itself. And I think what we've seen since post quarter end in the market is very positive for that metric.

Thank you very much. Back over to Jean-Marie again from Redeye. Ethereum has [indiscernible] with Solana attracting new inflows. How can CoinShares mitigate continued price declines in Ethereum, particularly in terms of [indiscernible]?

We can't really mitigate price decline in Ethereum. That's something we're not really in control yet. However, since quarter end and the low Ethereum already bound by 40%, if not more. So it was an oversold situation for Ethereum, which has been catching back a little bit right now. So hopefully, we can see Ethereum having a bit of a recovery. Solana inflow are also something we are tracking and we are [indiscernible] our sales team and our distribution team.

Thank you very much. Richard, again from Redeye. What is the typical loan book size and maturity?

Well, if we look at the total amount of outstanding loans as of the end of Q1, it's approximately $100 million. And when you take into account we have 4 or 5 counterparties, you can get a feel for the average size. In terms of maturity, the very short-term loans can be recalled on demand and that allows us to adhere to our risk framework when monitoring our counterparties.

Thanks very much. Jean-Marie, what do you feel may have caused a drop in demand for coin lending?

Well, the demand for coin lending is very much a function of 2 things, I will say, term structure, opportunity in the market and also activity on creation and redemption on the ETF market in general. And both of that were kind of like a little bit muted at some point in Q1, especially towards the end. And at that point, if you are holding inventory and you have the option to return it, which is what we want these people to do, like return it if you don't use it, then you return it. So it's exactly what we're expecting. So our lending book at the end of Q1 is probably on the small side to what it should be, but that's a discretionary data point at the end of the quarter.

Thanks very much. Richard, last one from Redeye to you. Is there anything that stands out in the physical products in terms of fees? There's an average of 1.5% versus 1.42% in the past 4 quarters.

I think the main thing that would stand out is how the proportional AUM across all the products has remained largely consistent that we have very different price structures within the CoinShares Physical products. Some have very, very low management fees, some have 0 management fees, we have seeking yield there on that is split between ourselves and the note holder. So there's a big difference in the percentages that these products are generating. But given we grow about 1.5% versus like you say, between 1.42% and over the past 4 quarters, what that is showing is that the proportional mix of products within CoinShares Physical is staying largely consistent as it continues to grow.

Now we've got questions from 2 separate individuals here that are fairly similar. One from [indiscernible], what is the reason for the Valkyrie AUM reduction? And along the same lines from Kevin at H.C. W. The decline in Valkyrie assets appear to be fairly through March. Should we see this as comparable to industry trends? And if not, why do you feel that Valkyrie [ discredited difference ] to the industry trends? Over to you, Richard.

Sure. I can start and Jean-Marie can chime in if he sees fit. I think the decline that we've seen in Valkyrie needs to be considered across the different products that it has. So the products with Valkyrie that offer exposure to digital assets directly. I think the decline we've seen there and there is largely proportional to what we've seen in the wider industry. It's not million miles away. I think where the nuance is, it's within the WGMI products, which offers exposure to crypto equities and equities that are associated with Bitcoin mining, which is a slightly different story for Q1 given the political landscape. I don't know if you want to add anything to that, Jean?

No, I think there is -- I think you say the best, Richard, but the mining industry has suffered a tremendous reduction in market cap during Q1. And so once we get outflow on XBT on BRR which is our Bitcoin ETF, we get effectively AUM reduction by price action, mainly on WGMI. So the combination of the 2 are kind of making this impact.

Two questions really on the dividend. What is the current sustainable dividend level that you want to maximize dividends? And would you consider maximum dividends over principal investments?

I think first and foremost, just to remind ourselves of the dividend policy for the group, which we adopted at the beginning of last year, which is to distribute between 20% to 40% of our net profit effectively means by way of dividend. We plan on sticking to this. There is obviously a level of flexibility within that 20% to 40%. But when we think about are we choosing to do this over principal investment or investing back in the business, I'll just remind everyone something Jean-Marie touched upon when we first talk about the dividend, it's a way to reward some of our shareholders have been with us for a long time and shouldn't be mistaken as not a willingness to continue to be growing the business, hence why we've set quite a wide parameters as what we can pay 20% to 40% and we've consistently been at the bottom end of that when we paid out. But we are planning on maintaining that dividend policy for the foreseeable future.

Thank you very much. One again for you, Richard, from H.C W. Will you offer restated U.S. dollar quarterly financial reports do investors need to wait for the [indiscernible] studies.

That something that we're looking at. We've had a very busy first quarter of the year, getting our audit signed off a month ahead of last year and then obviously following that going straight into the Q1 results, which came out today, which is the first set of financials presented under USD. And obviously, it would be very helpful for analysts to have sought the [indiscernible] in U.S. dollars, that's something that we're looking at. We'll probably look to upload something and announce accordingly. Unlikely there will be a full report, but the EBITDA tables and the comparatives that you're used to seeing, we're going to be recasting in USD as we go. So we will look to potentially release in the back so everyone can see them.

From [indiscernible] from ABG. Would you say that the European institutions have become increasingly [indiscernible] towards these crypto investment products?

Yes. I think we see definitely a wider discussion happening with the implementation of MiCA. And this discussion obviously take longer to materialize. But as mentioned in the first -- in the previous earnings call of Q4 2024, we have some sensible data coming out of that site. So we are pretty compelled by the opportunity in front of us with regards to converting institutional investors into digital asset investment.

Another one from [ ABT ]. How you characterize the differences between receptibility towards your products in the U.S. as compared to Europe?

Sorry, Jerry, the line was breaking up. Can you repeat that?

Sorry, no problem. How would you categorize differences between receptibility towards your products in the U.S. when compared to Europe?

Well, it's very different in the sense that we -- I think it's a Roger Federer quote talking about Wimbledon and saying, "I always play in my garden." And to some degree, Europe is going to a garden. The U.S., were playing away. We need to be much more conservative in terms of cost management in the U.S. because everything costs a fortune. So we need to be very careful how to spend money there and to invest there. So obviously, we don't have the same presence. We don't have the same branding, have the same visibility. So the recognition takes a bit longer to achieve. And that's something we are working actively to be able to leverage every single dollar we invest on behalf of our shareholder into the maximum ROI possible.

Seems to be a stream of questions coming your way now from H.C.W. Which is please [indiscernible] the crypto environment thus far through the June quarter as compared to the softness during March quarter. How do you look at the balance of the year vis-a-vis Bitcoin pricing, institutional adoption, consolidation and increasing competition?

Okay. I'm going to take some note, Jeri. It's a long question. I think Q1 was a very particular quarter in the sense that it was the first time I saw effectively retail sentiment being so negative, while at the same time getting institutional sentiment being so positive. In general, in crypto, it was retail being always positive, institution being always negative. And it was the first time I saw flipping in Q1 probably because there was also like a lack of understanding of what was happening within the U.S. political scene from the retail audience in general. It's rebound. It seems the end of the quarter, the crypto complex in general, but lead by Bitcoin, which asserts its dominance at the moment in the market cap has regained color. We regained the $100,000 market cap price point, and we were trending over the weekend towards the all-time high. So all being equal, the story of Q1 is very different from the story of Q2. I think Bitcoin and crypto are playing the game as they were supposed to, and we are now looking at how it's going to play with a context which seems to be some trade still coming up and things are positive for the overall asset class. Jeri, is there something I'm missing in the question here because it was a long one.

No, you've covered it. Next one for you as well. U.S. listings appear to be all the rage with Galaxy Digital and pseudo competitors either listing or trade in the U.S. Where is the CoinShares listing process? And how much emphasis is this initiative getting from the senior management within CoinShares? If things work as you hope, what time line would you foresee?

Okay. So [ Verge ] share play obliged, there is no pseudo competitors. There's only friendly competitor. But Galaxy is going through their own process to get the secondary listing done in the U.S. and probably start trading, I think, this week. And it has been a tremendous battle for them over the years. So we can only applaud their effort and grit to get that done. When it come to -- when it comes to CoinShares, the process is a little bit different. CoinShares is a European company. It's a British company or headquarter in Jersey. So it's under U.K. common law. It's accounted under IFRS audited under IAS. So we get a lot of nitty-gritty to deal with, with regards to achieving a U.S. listing. Richard and I and the wider team are working quite actively to make sure we are planning all the different steps towards that. Now I would love to refrain myself from giving an absolute deadline to which I can commit because obviously, we are very, very early in the process. If it was just down to me, I would love to tell you it will be done this year. If it's -- but I don't control PCOB, which is a public auditor framework you have to adopt in the U.S. to be able to list in the U.S. And I don't also control how the SEC is going to perceive CoinShares application when we are ready to apply. So all this stuff put together make it very complicated to give a definite deadline, but we recognize there is a window, and we want to benefit of the window.

How have you seen the level of competition change in the European markets? And has your consideration of intensifying competition changed? Or do you think it may change the way it's going to address that market?

Competition is competition. They are very busy doing their own stuff. We don't spend too much time worrying about them. We worry about our own affair and focus on our own execution instead of like being too worried about them. So we let them do their own things and we do our own.

Does CoinShares company [indiscernible] on the opportunity. Is this something the company may consider addressing? And if so, what sort of time line might we expect to see?

Sorry, Jeri, I missed the simple word.

Sorry. Do we have a view on the Asia opportunity? And if so, what sort of time line do we expect there?

Sorry, again on the first part of the sentence.

Sorry. Do CoinShares company have a view on Asia opportunity? And if so, what sort of time line would you expect to see?

Sorry, I don't know what the opportunity -- what's the opportunity word before?

Just opportunities in Asia.

In Asia, Okay, sorry. Asia opportunity -- sorry, Jeri, for that. The Asian market is a fascinating market. There has been discussion we disclosed in the past with Asian companies, notably in Hong Kong, notably in Australia. So far, it is a very muted market, and -- but we're keeping a very close eye on what's happening there. However, you will not see us doing a partnership with African exchange as it has been disclosed before.

And then the final question from H.C.W. What types of products does CoinShares see as underrepresented in the ETP Europe market versus the ETF U.S. market? And how may CoinShares exploit those gaps?

Yes. It's a very timely question. Thanks, Kevin. I think what we tend to see a lot is that the American market starting their, I would say, ETF journey, proper ETF journey through leverage product because [ ProShares ] were first to market with their CME ETF and leverage ETF framework, which is something which didn't really make its way in Europe yet, mainly because of structure, mainly because of swap counterparty requirement under the ETC framework and the way regulation works in Europe, but it's probably like a bit of demand for more actively traded products in Europe versus what we can see in the U.S.

Okay. Thanks for that. That brings us to the end of our questions. Thank you, everyone, for attending today. And for those of you that submitted questions, we'd like to wish you all a fantastic rest of your day.